Originally posted by sadnebula

As an older gamer I must say that I do not hate wow, it is a good game and has done much to lead to the growth of the industry.  That being said, It's not a game I really enjoyed. Blizzard took to many  choices in character development  away from the gamer for my  taste, also i find that an end game centered around bling doesn't cut it.

    All and all though, how can blizzard be blamed for coming up with a successful game that others, instead of trying to break the mold, choose to copy.  Put the blame where in belongs, on the companies coming up with the "wow clones", that are over  hyping their games,  only to fall short of the mark the blizzard set.  Also on the consumer, we buy these clones, then complain because they're not a "wow killer".

Until we as consumers speak with our money that we want something different , do you really see the soe's and the Ea's  out there taking a chance on something different?

 

I was going to write something insightful, but you did it for me, well said.

People always hate on the winning team, be the the Yankees, Manchester United or WOW. 

Sour grapes for the most part, because it isn't the game they want to "win".

(can you really "win" when supporting a game?)

 You have a point, to an extent.

You have to remember WoW brought alot of people over to this genre.

Now the problem is people are comfortable with a complete game, with very little bugs and is extremley polished

Its gonna take a HUGE rock to knock WoW from the top. Most of WoW players loves it, and are comfortable with it. The new games coming out have to not only offer more, but be polished and pretty bug free. 

Its all about comfort lvls, the games being put out are good, warhammer was good, Aion is good, but there not good enough (which imo is impossible at this point) to make people want to leave. And its because of comfort lvls and friends. WoW has made a second life for people, so a new games gotta squash that second life.

Never gonna happen.

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Originally posted by googajoob7

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Can you make a negative post about WOW without referencing (several times I might add) that you think the majority of its players are "children" when there is plenty of data to prove you incorrect?

We also know why the have not released sub numbers and that is due to the China situation. Now that it is finally fixed, we will probably see numbers in the next quarter.

If you are holding out hope that Blizzard will "turn things around", I wouldn't hold my breath. The casual gamer IS Blizzard's gamer. The casual gamer is responsible for the growth of WOW and unlike the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer does "stay with the game for years to come". Blizzard is quite content where they are.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Can you make a negative post about WOW without referencing (several times I might add) that you think the majority of its players are "children" when there is plenty of data to prove you incorrect?

We also know why the have not released sub numbers and that is due to the China situation. Now that it is finally fixed, we will probably see numbers in the next quarter.

If you are holding out hope that Blizzard will "turn things around", I wouldn't hold my breath. The casual gamer IS Blizzard's gamer. The casual gamer is responsible for the growth of WOW and unlike the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer does "stay with the game for years to come". Blizzard is quite content where they are.

There are LOTS of kids playing WoW. But maybe he meant the majority ACT like children rather than actually being children. I know when I played (From launch until a bit after BC) that I quit because I got tired of the rude and immature community (I.E. Constant Chuck Norris jokes, Leroy Jenkins references, general rudeness, greed, and/or selfishness.)

It's even worse (Or more sad rather) if it is adults acting in such a manner. But even I am willing to bet the majority of them are teen to college age players. I couldn't see THAT big of a percentage of them being 30+, but I've seen stranger things happen. =)

I just hope they are hard at work on either several expansions or WoW 2 to keep them all there.

Originally posted by tro44_1

People hate on WoW, because its the top MMO. Other games drop in population over time. while WoW's population rises

EVE keeps growing :P

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Can you make a negative post about WOW without referencing (several times I might add) that you think the majority of its players are "children" when there is plenty of data to prove you incorrect?

We also know why the have not released sub numbers and that is due to the China situation. Now that it is finally fixed, we will probably see numbers in the next quarter.

If you are holding out hope that Blizzard will "turn things around", I wouldn't hold my breath. The casual gamer IS Blizzard's gamer. The casual gamer is responsible for the growth of WOW and unlike the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer does "stay with the game for years to come". Blizzard is quite content where they are.

What happen in China that has effected WoW's Population? Let me know please
 

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Can you make a negative post about WOW without referencing (several times I might add) that you think the majority of its players are "children" when there is plenty of data to prove you incorrect?

We also know why the have not released sub numbers and that is due to the China situation. Now that it is finally fixed, we will probably see numbers in the next quarter.

If you are holding out hope that Blizzard will "turn things around", I wouldn't hold my breath. The casual gamer IS Blizzard's gamer. The casual gamer is responsible for the growth of WOW and unlike the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer does "stay with the game for years to come". Blizzard is quite content where they are.

What happen in China that has effected WoW's Population? Let me know please
 

China has a very strict approval policy for games. There is a current thread in the general forums here that details that. Anyway, Blizzard also changed providers in China so WOW was offline for a while doing that. They just recently got approval for WOTLK as well. For example, China has laws dealing with a lot of the content and Blizzard had to change some stuff - for example, I believe even some icons for Warlock spells had to change.And the Undead models had to have clothes on and not show any bones.

Now the provider has brought WOW back online in China and WOTLK will launch or has launched (?) so things are "getting back to normal". The question will be how much has all of this hurt WOW's reputation in China and how many players will or will not come back.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I dont hate WoW but i am very disapointed in the direction Blizzard have taken it . They sold out long term players those that would have stayed with the game for years to come in favour of the children and casual players . The thing is they could have had both if they d handled it in a different way .This is why they hav nt released subscriber numbers since december 2008 . Blizzard know they ve made a mistake and they are trying to rectify it with the cataclysm . They need a blank slate but the truth is to do that they need to upset the casual and younger player and they need to keep in check those in the company that are out for short term gain over long term gain . Its not too late for Blizzard to turn things around all it takes is the guts to make the changes that are needed .

Can you make a negative post about WOW without referencing (several times I might add) that you think the majority of its players are "children" when there is plenty of data to prove you incorrect?

We also know why the have not released sub numbers and that is due to the China situation. Now that it is finally fixed, we will probably see numbers in the next quarter.

If you are holding out hope that Blizzard will "turn things around", I wouldn't hold my breath. The casual gamer IS Blizzard's gamer. The casual gamer is responsible for the growth of WOW and unlike the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer does "stay with the game for years to come". Blizzard is quite content where they are.

What happen in China that has effected WoW's Population? Let me know please
 

China has a very strict approval policy for games. There is a current thread in the general forums here that details that. Anyway, Blizzard also changed providers in China so WOW was offline for a while doing that. They just recently got approval for WOTLK as well. For example, China has laws dealing with a lot of the content and Blizzard had to change some stuff - for example, I believe even some icons for Warlock spells had to change.And the Undead models had to have clothes on and not show any bones.

Now the provider has brought WOW back online in China and WOTLK will launch or has launched (?) so things are "getting back to normal". The question will be how much has all of this hurt WOW's reputation in China and how many players will or will not come back.

YTF they got to do all that pointless stuff? Seems lame

People hate on WoW because it's better then them and they know it...its science...don't try to argue against it.

One word: envy.

Originally posted by Harabeck

I agree completely, a very well thought out post. I look forward to the day when WoW is toppled. Not because it "deserves" to be toppled or is ruining the industry, but because that event will signal an advancement of the genre as a whole.

Oh lord... the OP's signature means nothing - MMO's can't be compared to normal games - in fact a 5 year old game being dominant is something to brag about - it's amazing... it's impressive - the fact that it's gaining more and more subs is even  more impressive.

If you consider the mega millions that blizzard is bringing in (especially when the economy of the world is the way it is) "a joke" - then the "joke" is on you...

I wish I was "a joke" like that...

Dominating and raking in mega millions has to be the best joke ever..

trying to compare an mmo to other games is like apples and oranges - mmo's by design are longevity games...

WoW is only doing what all mmo's want to do / wish they could do.

The only reason I would look forward to something toppling wow is because the community of wow is so...lame (IMHO).

It's fun and requires no skill which appeals to the masses - now they need to come out with one that is fun yet requires amazing skill to play... Of course a game like that will not appeal to the masses but, it will appeal the a certain crowd of folks that are looking for more!

The problem is the majority of wow players are not mmo fans, they are wow fans...they want every other game to fail so wow can stay at the top, they bash every new game thats being released like fanatical lunatics., just read what that guy zorndorf posts and you will know exactly what i mean.

Well i hate WOW,because you can't create your own content and there is no furry avatar. Because in Second Life they have that stuff.

Going through this thread, I realized that nobody had really explained "the reasons behind WoW hating".  It's pretty simple, it's the polarizing efforts of the WoW supporters which lead to it. 

Just in this thread, you get a perfect example of it: "After WAR I've come to the point that I NO longer accept stupid critics from stupid Wow haters."  In other words, any argument you might make against WoW will summarily be dismissed.  It immediately becomes heresy to favour another game over World of Warcraft.

I played WoW (Battlechest, not WotLK) roughly from November 2008 to January 2009, and I even posted a thread here to explain why I had enough of the game.  Overall, a quite reasonable post, and I certainly didn't consider myself a "hater" of WoW -- just not my thing, nothing more than that.  Nothing, I figured, that could have been much cause for controversy.

Boy, was I wrong.

I was immediately attacked by some of the defenders of the game, some of whom (I'm not giving any names) have posted in this thread.   First point: I had only played six weeks before posting, and I had only made it to level 46.  My answer: How long do you really need to play before figuring out you don't like a game?  It's like asking you to finish a book before finding out you didn't like it; only a professional book reviewer would be expected to read it all.  And the analogy stops there, since game reviewers tend to play very little of the game before writing their reviews (case in point: Ed Zitron on Darkfall). So I was careful to keep my discussion to what I'd seen and experienced, and inevitably, I was confronted with a list of all those supposedly great things I didn't do in WoW.  Apparently, the only reason why I didn't like it was because I didn't play enough of it.

I could have accepted that, and shrugged it off, if it had stopped there. But as the thread grew lengthier (and wouldn't go away quickly enough to the liking of some WoW supporters), some ad-hominem accusations were eventually levelled against me:

-First, that I had not bought the game but instead got a free download because the approximate price I said I had paid for the game ($50) was too high to a certain person's liking, as it was above the official Blizzard price for the Battle Chest edition. Quoting from there: "As for the OP: he said he bought basic Wow and TBC for .... 50 dollars. I wonder where ? - as this is about 25% ABOVE the official price since 12 months ...this is a long thoughtful writing of someone who didn't play it seriously at all (free download I guess) and forget even his level 46." So I actually posted a scanned copy of my invoice (post #142). Total amount I had paid for the game, taxes included, was $45.14 in Canadian Dollars.  So, $4.86 short, an honest mistake, and nothing to fuss over, I would have thought.

-Again, I was wrong.  Someone started complaining that I had misled the readers of this site by avoiding to say I was talking in Canadian dollars (post #145). Quoting from there: "So I was right you could'nt possibly have paid 50 .... dollars (you didn't mention US). 1 US dollars equals 1.25 Can dollars. Nice to have "forgotten" this to mention in your OP." And where is that person, blaming me for not using US dollars, living?  Not in the United States, but in Europe, and blaming me for not mentioning amounts in a currency he isn't even using himself. (And by the way, currencies fluctuate; we're at near parity now, but I don't remember what the exchange rate was like in November of last year.  That's why I always mention subscription fees in USD, because that's how they're billed and the amount varies, but anyone who bothered to look at my profile here would have found out I live in Canada.)  But anyway, yes, the bickering was actually over the munificent sum of $4.86, and in which currency it should be calculated.  My crime, apparently, was an insidious attempt to make the game appear more expensive than it was. I guess, because I can't come up with another explanation.

-Anyway, I keep weird hours when playing, so even though I'm Canadian, I end up playing with Australians, and most of my gaming friends are from Down Under.  One of them had told me he had paid $60 AUD for his copy of Battle Chest, which I made it known.  Answer (also post #145): "Dribbling around the problem and mentioning Australian friends who pay 60 in whatever currency is NOT helping you either, isn't it."  Nice to know that the rest of the non-US world that isn't Europe can be lumped under "whatever currency". Very nice.

-So I did the only honourable thing: I got one of my Australian friends to post in the thread. The reply came that it was impossible: "What a joke. Suddenly OP Vetarnias sees that his arguments FAIL because of admitting he only was a very low level class. Now a "ONE post vergin" comes along who says ... "we tried the game together". What a joke. And you still want to be believable this .... on a forum where 100 people are logged in at the moment. Kindergarden. Formed parties ? you two? in what content context? with a difference of 30 levels??" (post #148).

-It reached the bottom after my friend, to avoid saying I was too poor to be able to buy a copy of the game at the same time as he did, said I could not find a copy of the game. Needless to say, not satisfied with that explanation, the WoW supporter said this was impossible, which he bundled with an accusation that my friend was (as hinted in the previous point) just an alternate account I had created for sockpuppeting purposes (post #155).

I could go on and on, and give you more examples from that thread alone, like being asked why I didn't start playing MMO's with WoW; as far as subscription-based MMO's are concerned, it was my fourth, after Pirates of the Burning Sea (January-May 2008), Age of Conan (the first six weeks), and Warhammer Online (the first week). Or how my friend had managed to purchase an epic mount (I and another friend gave him the money), with the inevitable corollary of how I knew how to make money in WoW ("you lucked into it"). But I think there's enough evidence above to give you a very good clue as to what fuels WoW hatred, to use your terminology.

Then there is the rest:

It's that every person who dares to say they don't like WoW is immediately subjected to an inquisition for saying so, and that only very rarely will one WoW moderate supporter (and I'm sure they exist) step in and say this has gone too far. And it looks like an inquisition, forcing detractors to repeat their story over and over again before looking for discrepancies between the versions, even when it's just ridiculous.  But even if there isn't any discrepancy, even if the detractor is being honest, there will always be some WoW supporters to make stuff up, and never retract, never apologize.  I remember that one guy who posted in that thread was a WoW correspondent for this website, and he later told me he had reached the point where he wished he had never found this site.  Let me repeat, a WoW correspondent for this site, not exactly The Enemy, and you proved too much even for him. In other words, it's that WoW supporters cannot brook dissent, and that instead of being ostracized by their more moderate counterparts, the rabid WoW fanboys are all too often shielded by them.

It's also that no other game is allowed to have any feature which outshines WoW. WoW supporters can't stand their beloved game being upstaged by anything else, as demonstrated by that utterly meaningless poll for the best game of 2008, which the expansion to LOTRO won.  It is meaningless, yet WoW must win it. And it is also applied to what one must think of other games. I think Age of Conan, for example, has a far better gaming universe than WoW, because it's self-contained, and includes none of those horrendous pop culture references which WoW actually encourages.  And I think Dungeons & Dragons Online, despite clearly seeing why it was a failure as a subscription-based MMO, is actually fun for what it is, without any of WoW's pretension.  But I'm sure that what I've said about those two games won't stand well with some people here.

It's that every game which does not even cater to WoW's demographic must be denigrated as though it were in direct competition with it, like EVE Online.  The message is clear: No other MMO must be allowed to succeed. I remember the case of someone saying "you couldn't walk out of your cockpit in EVE", as though any successful game had to go for the model of WoW (at which, of course, WoW is and will always be best).  Now, don't get me wrong, I played EVE last summer (June-August), and I found it boring as hell, especially if you're not in one of those uber-alliances.  I don't belong to the old-school mentality, and I despise the ideology behind EVE (especially when scamming is something openly bragged about), yet I'm not particularly concerned that EVE is a successful MMO, because unlike WoW, it isn't touted as some sort of invincible juggernaut crushing everything else in its path.

I remember seeing a picture somewhere on these boards, where WoW was depicted as a hunting board of all the other games it had killed (with stuffed heads), with two WoW characters saying of Age of Conan "wait, let's give him a head start" (If someone has a link to that picture, it would be appreciated). I also remember that one of the stuffed heads on the hunting board was for Pirates of the Burning Sea -- a game which failed all by itself, on its own parameters, and had nothing to do with being crushed by WoW; PotBS tried something different and fell on its face.  Yet some WoW supporters were evidently eager to claim it as another kill by their favourite game.

Likewise, it's the superiority complex of some of WoW's players. As I said, I despise the elitist old-schoolers who want to demonstrate their leetness in any game where they show up with their uberguild by going against other elitist old-schoolers with their rival uberguild, based on a grudge that started two years and five games before; but WoW has its own casual-elitist types. Yet some WoW players refuse to acknowledge this distinctive form of elitism based on gear and time spent playing the game. Who uses the "elitist" word the most? WoW players, against the "hardcore" players who never got over the Trammelization of UO.  Fair enough, they're a bunch of elitists, I'm not denying that.  But take a look at your own treadmill runners, too, and tell me this isn't elitism, especially when they advertise in Silvermoon or Orgrimmar about what gear you must have, and the three-times-a-week schedule you must maintain to join their raid.  It's all over chat.

And while there are many other reasons, I will conclude with the main one: It's that when all else fails, mention the eleven million.  Tyranny of the majority at its finest, with the underlying reasoning that no bad game could have that many subscribers, so WoW must be good.  And whenever someone mentions Britney Spears or McDonald's -- or the 1932 German election where Hitler got 11 million votes -- you immediately dismiss it.  But the point is that Popular does not mean Good.  It does not necessarily mean bad either, but it is no indication, in itself, of quality.

So here are my reasons; dismiss them at will, I don't care.

Wow I sometimes wonder.

Did Ever Quest get this much hate when It was big?

With comments like, "This game has destroyed the MMORPG genre"

? Did it?

Originally posted by ronan32

The problem is the majority of wow players are not mmo fans, they are wow fans...they want every other game to fail so wow can stay at the top, they bash every new game thats being released like fanatical lunatics., just read what that guy zorndorf posts and you will know exactly what i mean.

This is not true at all.  In fact, if you played the most talked about mmos that have come out AFTER WoW was released, you would have seen and heard many players saying things like "thank god this came out, im sick and tired of wow" or "this game kicks WoW's ass" and other things of that sort. 

It happened in AoC, it happened in Warhammer, and it happened in Aion.  BUT, then a few months go by and those same players say things like "Fuck this shit, this game has too many problems *sigh* I guess its back to WoW".

WoW players are tired as hell of being in the same game world for almost 5 years but there just isn't any alternative atm that can meet the standards of WoW.

I still Love WOW, but I will tell you why I really Dislike world of warcraft now.

When wow came out before burning crusade I played it 10 hours a day I was happy. Then I was about level 50's when all of a sudden comes Burning Crusade. I never even got a chance to explore all the level 60's end game before going to The Outlands.

Resil was added to the game in burning crusade Seperating PVE from PVP which made me hate it.

Then not too long after hitting level 70. The GRIND, an EPIC Mount 5000G PER CHAR PER ACCOUNT, and 1000G for a regular flying mount.

It just seemed insane.

Now as of WLTK they make it  like this

GOLD FOR Mounts

Gold FOR Extra Talent Specs 1000G 

Everything costs too much gold, and isn't worth playing and the grind to me anymore honestly.

I didnt even get to experience full burning crusade dungeions on all of it before they came out with WOLTK

Now they are releasing a new game next year or on 2010 Expansion.

SERIOUSLY ENOUGH. Make wow fun again ?

Fix it so players have to do a story line quest To get to the outlands all the way through it? Dungeons ect?

Then you have to Do all outlands dungeons before making it to WOLTK Dungeons

Then ALL WOLTK Dungeons before making it to CATALYSM, ect.

Originally posted by Renoaku

Now as of WLTK they make it  like this

GOLD FOR Mounts

Gold FOR Extra Talent Specs 1000G 

Everything costs too much gold, and isn't worth playing and the grind to me anymore honestly.

They really changed how costly things are took out a lot of the grind recently. In August I rolled a warrior and did the quest/dungeon grind him up to 80 in about a month. I started with no money and had no issues buying all my mounts as soon as I dinged each level.

I had quit before the BC launch so all I know about it is the warstories my guildies told me and it sounds like it was really grindy with all the factions and such. Blizzard really changed things with the LK expansion by making EVERYTHING accessible with very little effort. It is nothing to make 300-400 gold per night just doing dailies and the big money items (mounts) have been reduced in price significantly.

I quit again after being let down with the LK raiding, but I really cant see anyone saying its a grind now or money is a problem.

I play WOW and actually enjoy leveling up with my son, but I can honestly tell you this. It is not the dynamic of the game that people hate it's the element inside it. The social behaviour of the people on some of those servers is damn right rediculous.

Ignorant, immature, perverted bastards that play in that game (which is about 12.5 million of the people) disgust me some days.

I love WOW but hate a good majority of the people that play in the game.

PS,

WOW is not a grindy game in comparison to most "go play EQ1-2 and Vanguard or Warhammer and then talk about grindy".