OP: first off, tone done your swearing. It is not permitted and it is going on my nerves, I am sure you can put your point across without insults or bad words, savy?

Second, my numbers were just example, but let's go with yours. so 30% has seen Hyjal? and Burning Crusade has been out for oh, 18 months? And you do not find anything strange in that?

Why not?

I mean Hyjal is the pinnacle of Content, or almost, and still only less than 1/3 has SEEN that content AFTER 18 MONTHS!

How many before the expansion get released? will we ever get to 40%?

Third: Blizzard ALREADY said 10-men and 25-men will have separate progression and separate gear. with 25-men being one notch higher than 10-men but BOTH starting off easy and ramping up all the way to harder than the hardest we have right now. If you do not believe them, well, then why are we discussing at all?

Fourth: "I do not like XXXX, period" is good when you talk with your friends, but if you want to have a discussion in a forum, like here, it is pointless. If that is ALL your motivations, then stop posting. nothing positive will EVER come out of it, you will remain fixated in your position, as it has no reason to be beside your own will, and we will all have a bad time throwing virtual rocks at each other.

Fifth: Hardcore Vs Casuals has been going on since day 1 of MMorpg and will prolly go on like that since the very end. Certain games cater to one type, certain to the other and most still tries to cather to all to not lose customers. World of Warcraft has always been, since day 1, a game catering to many Casuals. It has many features that Hardcore players did not need, like less grind and much faster levelling, that are part of the core principles of this game. Blizzard of course also tried to cather to the Hardcore by offering end game Raids and very competitive PvP. Infact, before Burning Crusade, it was common knowledge that 1-59 was Casual and 60 was totally Hardcore.

I would think anyone sees the problem there, you are cathering to a certain crowd for most of the game and then switch off,and Hard, to the other at the very end.

In Burning Crusade and now in WotL they are trying to make this switch much softer, first we had 25-men raids and lots of content that did not require a raid like dailies and Heroic dungeons so that even people not part of a raiding guild could do something once at max level, this just increase on that.

Sixth: So casuals live the life of the millionarie rockstar? you DO realize that usually THAT is how hardcore are defined? Because in one way or the other they CAN play much much much more than casuals and so they need to have disposable income to throw away?

Is that true? None in the least and neither is your accusation. Let's stop stereotyping people, shall we? Casuals laments the fact they cannot see content in a game they are currently playing, what is wrong with that? Would you like to buy, say, Mass Effect and then be told before the climax of the gameplay that "hey! you need to repeat the whole game 5 more times before you can see the very best ending ever!!"  ?

See? Single player games got the concept right. The WHOLE game is available to anyone, BUT for those that really likes the game and plays it for hours, there are EXTRAS! You get some special boss, or some achievement, BUT nothing of this is part of the actual storyline of the game. So why in a MMorpg, Hardcore cannot be happy with those? But they NEED to be superior and they NEED to have areas of the games Reserved Exclusively for them? Most of the time areas that are the very pinnacle of the game/Expansion? (Like Illadan and the Blöack temple).

Yes, I just turned the tables on you, now the ball is yours.

Originally posted by Bladin

I think this is a brilliant idea tbh.

10 mans will be more flexible for casual players, casual guilds, and will help fill in the loot for players who can't get upgrades for their spec from other places.

The 25 mans will still be tons of fun, give the best loot, and be the main progression chain, but now we aren't as limited to schedules or the like.

Looking forward to raiding naxx with my guild with 25 people, then having our group go into the 10 man version the next day off the raid schedule, and get more loot =D

This is exactly what I'm saying, the 25 man raids will still exist with better loot than all of the 10 man dungeons.  I don't see how this affects the hardcore player at all.  They still get to join a bigger party, down harder versions of bosses, and get better loot.  What other reasons are there to be a hardcore pve player in wow? It's not required to do well in pvp anymore, and it takes a lot of time.  I personally hated putting in 15-20 hours a week in BWL, MC, and AQ40 in hopes of good drops.  That's why it's good that Blizzard is releasing content for everyone so they can at least experience the content without needing the best of loot.  It seriously comes down to the fact that hardcore players don't want other people seeing the content they see, which is ridiculous seeing as it's just a video game.

Originally posted by Jbrizzle16

And another thing, ever since Blizz lowered the raid capacity, a lot of people have been out of a job really causing lots of people to quit. This game wasn't created casually, so why should It should it change to casual when most people i know love the old way? If you want casual play, go play Guild Wars or something...WoW wasnt meant for slow people.

You are sadly mistaken if you think Guild Wars is meant for slow people.  The creativeness that is required in pve (before Ursan that is) and pvp is so much more than WoW pve could ever hope for.  A noob in Guild Wars given the best skill bar will still not run it properly.  Give some retard a character with good gear in WoW, he or she would be considered a good player by most because that game is so gear dependent.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Maybe Blizzard is trying to help the hardcores to save them from their self-destructive tendencies. 

I can see why Blizzard has moved focus from the hardcore crowd to the casual, thats where the big money is. 

I did see a statement that someone made about casuals going from one game to another more frequently than hardcore players.  I disagree.....seems to me the hardcore chew through new content way too fast and quickly become bored and move on, leaving the casuals behind who still play for years.

Now, there is always a diehard crowd in every game, who play it for 5, 6, or more years, way beyond any practical reason, and they are loyal, but small in number.

Most large developers are now avoiding the niche markets, those who love large scale raiding, or FFA PVP w/looting  because that's not where the money is.

 

You have hit the nail on the head here Kyleran.  Players like Washo are a little too wrapped up in their feelings of superiority to understand what they are asking for (although it's clear he has other personality issues beyond that).  They assume everybody else out there doesn't know what it's like to be 'elite' like him.  In fact, there are countless players out there, me included, that have done the hardcore raid grind for years on end (before WoW even came on the market).  I have no intention of go back to that.  I like to play mmorpg's, but if they want my money they need to offer something fun for me to do. 

And that's what it comes down to in WoW, money.  It's all of those 'casuals' occasionally logging on and still paying their monthly fee who keep the development teams funded to make more content for the small population of players that make it that far.  If anything, hardcore players should be screaming for WoW to do things to keep casuals around and paying their money.  Otherwise the populations crash and you're left with a handful of players.  When you only have a population of 50k, how is that going to fund much in the way of future development?  How is that going to fund the latest upgrades for server hardware?  How is that going to fund tech support that is there solving problems in the middle of the night before they affect the servers?  It doesn't.

If Washo got the perfect game that he wanted, he'd be there playing it with 50k other people.  And he'd also be bitching about how it's dying and there's no new content and the servers are always crashing, and so on and so on....just like so many other mmorpgs that have bitten the dust.  I'm just glad blizzard doesn't listen to people like that.

Originally posted by Jbrizzle16

10 man Arthas? Thats a bloody joke...If 25 measly mortals can take down Illidan (according to Blizz apparently they can) how can 10 measly mortals defeat a demi-god....? Blizz seriously needs to stop screwing up their once-good game. 40 man raids is where it was at back before the cursed expansion.

Sounds a like a good solution.. every 1 gets to see the content.

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Originally posted by Volkmar

 

OP: first off, tone done your swearing. It is not permitted and it is going on my nerves, I am sure you can put your point across without insults or bad words, savy?
Second, my numbers were just example, but let's go with yours. so 30% has seen Hyjal? and Burning Crusade has been out for oh, 18 months? And you do not find anything strange in that?
Why not?
I mean Hyjal is the pinnacle of Content, or almost, and still only less than 1/3 has SEEN that content AFTER 18 MONTHS!

---

Battle for mount Hyjal is not the top tier of raiding (pre 2.4). Black Temple was and that has only been out for 12 months. And its not like you could just waltz straight into Hyjal could you? Having to down Vashj and Kael pre-nerfs was not an easy thing to do. So instead of saying that Hyjal has been out for 18 months its only been available as a raid instance since late May when Nihilium downed Kael. I mean, its not like people had to level up to 70, get kara attuned, clear kara, clear the very buggy Gruul. Then down a Magtheridon 100 times harder than he is now, clear all of SSC and then clear all of TK including pre nerf bosses to get into Hyjal is it now? Remember when SSC and TK had attunements and required you to have downed Nightbane, Magtheridon and Gruul just to enter those instances?

So get your facts right.

And its not like Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal are hard are they? Even Azgalor is easy. Only Archimonde takes any degree of coordination to down. Before attunements were removed about 15% of people were hyjal/bt attuned and that had been steadily increasing. In a few weeks of 2.4 we've seen another 700,000 people progress into Hyjal and thats just Euro/North America. Who knows how many in the Asian countries are progressing. And lets face it, North Americans are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind the Euros. All the top guilds in the world are European. A USA guild has not a major end-of-the-instance boss world first since ... Elitist Jerks on Nef. Yup, thats right. No end boss for 3 years for America. I would say that around 50% of Euro raiders (excluding people only PvP which wotjutsu still picks up) have down at least one boss in Hyjal.

The problem is that people are so bad at this game that instead of putting in some effort and getting better all you do is whine, cry, insult raiders and DEMAND Blizzard make content so simple stupid that even terribads like most of the people in this thread can clear. I used to play games on my gameboy harder than most of the content in WoW. Well, enjoy your simple stupid content. I'll do something else with my time.

p.s. I didn't read the rest of your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.

Oh, and 86% of people have seen at least High King Maulgar down. Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance so whats this about 25 mans being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD? Over 62% have been/are in SSC. Take away PvP'ers and people who quit the game a long time ago and the % of active raiders in SSC would be much much higher.

So much for your rubbish stories that getting 25 people together is impossible.

I love this idea, this makes it easier to just go with close friends and have ALOT more fun, reminds me of the first months of KZ where our grp was pretty much friends from outside of the game and it went beautifully.

So i'm welcoming this change with open arms.

Haters of this change, remember you still get better loot from 25-man version so please.... Some does it for the gear, others for the excitement and fun.

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Originally posted by aubry

You have hit the nail on the head here Kyleran. Players like Washo are a little too wrapped up in their feelings of superiority to understand what they are asking for (although it's clear he has other personality issues beyond that). They assume everybody else out there doesn't know what it's like to be 'elite' like him. In fact, there are countless players out there, me included, that have done the hardcore raid grind for years on end (before WoW even came on the market). I have no intention of go back to that. I like to play mmorpg's, but if they want my money they need to offer something fun for me to do.

And what puts you into a position to judge me and make insults about my personality, lifestyle and stupid stories about me playing games with 50,000 subscribers?

---

Maybe if you spent less time insulting "hardcore raiders" and more time working on being better you would actually get to see something other than Kara. But nope, you'd rather just sit there and make personal insults about non WoW related stuff and gross generalisations than getting off your butt and putting some effort in.
If I went and joined my local sporting team, even though its not exactly a big time professional league, I would still be expected to put in 100% effort by my team mates. I would be expected to come to training and work as a team even though ITS JUST A GAME. If my team puts no effort in and plays against a team that does put effort into the game, we would lose quite badly. Should I turn around and say "I pay the same fee to play in this league and its unfair the opposition team is better because they put more effort in." You'd be laughed at for being a whiny, cry-baby idiot.
p.s. I also didn't bother reading all your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.

Washo, are you realy 30 years old?  I mean, I know of some people who are 30 and beyond that sound like you, but they not knowz how to use the internetz and have troublez with finding the ON switch...

Originally posted by Washo

 

 

Heres a news flash for you, genious, where do you think most of Blizzard's devs come from? Thats right - Everquest.

Maybe if you spent less time insulting "hardcore raiders" and more time working on being better you would actually get to see something other than Kara. But nope, you'd rather just sit there and make  personal insults about non WoW related stuff and gross generalisations than getting off your butt and putting some effort in.

If I went and joined my local sporting team, even though its not exactly a big time professional league, I would still be expected to put in 100% effort by my team mates. I would be expected to come to training and work as a team even though ITS JUST A GAME. If my team puts no effort in and plays against a team that does put effort into the game, we would lose quite badly. Should I turn around and say "I pay the same fee to play in this league and its unfair the opposition team is better because they put more effort in." You'd be laughed at for being a whiny, cry-baby idiot.

p.s. I also didn't bother reading all your post because if you don't read mine I'm not going to read yours.

    Even though your comparison of WoW to sports makes a little bit of sense, it is far from reality.  Sports are completely different from video games and they always will be.  Video games are Strictly entertainment for a majority of people and will always stay that way.  A majority of gamers play to relax from a tough day at work and or other things.  Sports have always been completely skill based.  Some people are naturally athletic and understand what to do in a sport, hense the "Skill" aspect that wow lacks.  Someone can play sports all of their life and still be bad at it.  Someone can play WoW for 30 hours a week get some good loot, and be considered good even if they suck.  You can't compare WoW to sports it just doesn't work. 

    You just need to be a little more open minded.  I think it's funny that you can't see other people playing WoW as a form of entertainment rather than being in it to dominate the raids or w.e it is that you consider a hardcore player doing.  And another thing, you still haven't explained why 10 man raids in the 25 man format  affects your playing style or ruins the game for you.  You just seem to insult every other poster for disagreeing with you, and you just seem to be disappointed that you're so called "superiority" in a video game will go away a little bit, even though it really isn't at all.