The churn of "casuials" pays more of the bills than the long term users. Its a steadfast rule that with a subscription based model:

"You are over charging half your player base, and undercharging the other half".

Simply put, those that only play a little bit here and there, are being over charged, those that spend all day in the game, all week, are being undercharged.

Casuals as you call them, pay the bills as they are the only type that is profitable. The hardcore only provide a small population of the server, but also create the need of others to see others online, and regularity.

The "Hardcore" have not been relevant for quite a while, they are just the loudest.

 You can't buy tier 9 items for badges. Also if you stick to just farming heroics you will get 2 items from tier 8.5 and a couple of other items that are worse than Ulduar 10 drops mostly. There are a couple of nice items for triumph badges but doing just heroics would take you about a month for 1 item(2 for hat). I also doubt a new guild is going to be able to beat the new raid but you are welcome to try.

So...Blizzard barely increased the content available for boring, repetitive grinding?   Whee.  I just can't get excited about daily quests.  Going into a dungeon, clearing it out, and doing it again tomorrow with the exact same mobs and bosses gets old...fast.

I don't see how this is a bad thing. Sure, it doesn't appeal to me, but it obviously does to a lot of other people. I'm not going to bash something just because I don't like it, and I'm sure blizzard isn't going to change it either. We just need to accept it for what it is: A casual MMO. If you don't like that then leave the game. Maybe then, at least, they will notice and change it. Assuming the hardcore audience makes up enough of their profit.

 contrary to what most devs think, it is possible that a long-time-player can still be casual

Everyone i know likes it.

And it is not as easy as the author has indicated.

My guild has tried TOC 10, and the tank is not geared enough to get through all of it. Just the first boss took us a few tries. It is not undoable but it will take a few weeks/months before even a big fraction of the guilds can have it on farm. And don't forget 25 man & hard mode.

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M. I don't think Blizzard has anything to worry about making the game too easy.

If you go to wow-heroes.com, as of NOW, on my server, calestrasz, there are like only 20 guilds who have clear anything in TOC 10, out of >200. None has cleared everything. ONLY 6 guilds have down any TOC 25 boss.

It will be months before even half of the guilds are having any of these in farm.

Originally posted by battleaxe

So...Blizzard barely increased the content available for boring, repetitive grinding?   Whee.  I just can't get excited about daily quests.  Going into a dungeon, clearing it out, and doing it again tomorrow with the exact same mobs and bosses gets old...fast.

I agree. Doing the same thing over and over is the definition of grind.

I am not a hardcore gamer that Raid all the time but I still want a challenge.

And running the same easy dungeons over and over is just boring to me.

It is ok that most of the content is for regular players but it should still be at least 10% really hard and challenging stuff, and I mean boths raiding and dungeons. Also making leveling so easy makes all the old content worthless.

They shouldn't have raised the levelcap at all. That is really the problem. It is the thing that more or less killed EQ, all the old content was just a waste of time there. Wow is getting to the same point faster and faster.

When you make an expansion you must be careful so you don't make all old content obsolete. It changes the whole game.

Games like Wow should also both have room for hardcore and casual players, it use to have that.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M.

Does Wow really have 11M players now? Have China opened up the servers again now? I do know they lost a lot of players in Korea.

Otherwise we are talking about something like 6 millions. Still a lot more than anyone else of course but far from 11 millions.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by battleaxe

So...Blizzard barely increased the content available for boring, repetitive grinding?   Whee.  I just can't get excited about daily quests.  Going into a dungeon, clearing it out, and doing it again tomorrow with the exact same mobs and bosses gets old...fast.

 

I agree. Doing the same thing over and over is the definition of grind.

I am not a hardcore gamer that Raid all the time but I still want a challenge.

And running the same easy dungeons over and over is just boring to me.

It is ok that most of the content is for regular players but it should still be at least 10% really hard and challenging stuff, and I mean boths raiding and dungeons. Also making leveling so easy makes all the old content worthless.

They shouldn't have raised the levelcap at all. That is really the problem. It is the thing that more or less killed EQ, all the old content was just a waste of time there. Wow is getting to the same point faster and faster.

When you make an expansion you must be careful so you don't make all old content obsolete. It changes the whole game.

Games like Wow should also both have room for hardcore and casual players, it use to have that.

I agree with you, with obsoleting the old content, there is no need in the expansions themselves other than the newest. But to be a hardcore gamer and play this game now days, you won't get further than you did if you played casual these days. And that is the greatest problem, that is the reason hardcore gamers are standing up against this. WoW used to give me something to do every day and night, but now days I only need to log in for a minutes and then I'm done, till the next day. So the game is dying for me :(

WoW started casual...where do these people with this BS come from

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

WoW started casual...where do these people with this BS come from

WoW started casual? Really now. And i guess my 12 hour shifts on my computer back in the day finishing up AQ40 and Naxx at the same time was casual. Also, grinding out Highwarlord was casual, suuuurreee. You must have not hit end game back then.

Since when are "casual player" and "long time player" exclusive terms?  I've been a pretty casual player of the game since the day it launched.   You can make any game hard core if you want to, you just need to spend hours and hours  at a time playing.  The good thing about WoW is that you don't need to in order to enjoy yourself and get at least something accomplished.  I don't see any problem with that, there are still things for aspiring professional videogame players to do.

Originally posted by Josexph

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

WoW started casual...where do these people with this BS come from

 

WoW started casual? Really now. And i guess my 12 hour shifts on my computer back in the day finishing up AQ40 and Naxx at the same time was casual. Also, grinding out Highwarlord was casual, suuuurreee. You must have not hit end game back then.

AQ40 and Naxx weren't around when the game started.  I think the point is that the game has always been casual friendly even though there were things for hardcore gamers to do as well.  It was casual because you could level without dedicating your life to it, like you had to in Everquest and other popular games at the time.  Even at the time of AQ40 and Naxx there were still many things for casual players to accomplish.  It was all about how you chose to play.

Originally posted by Josexph
 

I agree with you, with obsoleting the old content, there is no need in the expansions themselves other than the newest. 

How do you level from 60 to 70 w/o going to Outland? 

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M.

 

Does Wow really have 11M players now? Have China opened up the servers again now? I do know they lost a lot of players in Korea.

Otherwise we are talking about something like 6 millions. Still a lot more than anyone else of course but far from 11 millions.

I heard they just open back up in China. However, even if you don't count China, 50 players out of 6M still makes my point succinctly.

Originally posted by Oyjord

Originally posted by Josexph
 

I agree with you, with obsoleting the old content, there is no need in the expansions themselves other than the newest. 

 

How do you level from 60 to 70 w/o going to Outland? 

Didn't say i don't level there, but do i do any of the dungeons or any of the reps, hell na. And usually when i level i just go to about two zones.

Ok WOW is not perfect but it is still the best MMO out there. MMO = Grind it always has and always will. Creating new content for people every day is just not going to happen.

As far as the Old world in wow is concerned try looking at the next expansion where they are revisiting the old world and changing almost all of it. Which is more than most other MMO's have ever done.

I remember the 8 hours a night raiding and I dont miss those times. You want to talk about a grind. Having to spend 8 plus hours a night in one dungeon is not pleasant memories.

The problem is that hardcore players don't feel "epic" anymore. It used to be a status symbol to carry around that T3 armor, you had achieved something that about 2% of the WoW population achieved (can't find the article, will look it up).

Seriously, 2% of WoW players got to complete AQ40 and Naxx. That's not a whole lot. At all. Even if they only had 2mil subscribers then, that's still a very few.

Thus, the devs are trying to open end-game content up to casual players as well as hardcore players. They're giving you different options to acquire the gear. They want more than a handful of people to experience end-game content, more than a handful to take on Arthas when he arrives.

In my book? Not such a bad idea. Just because someone who wears the armor that I wear, but acquired it in a different fashion, doesn't ruin the game for me. As long as they put in the same amount of work that I do for it. Whether that's grinding dailies and heroics over and over again, or painfully gathering mats to craft something of close-to-equal value... not such a big deal to me.

Now, I don't rate myself as hardcore, I'd say I'm casual. But I do consider myself skilled enough, and my guildmates skilled enough, to make it through everything thus far in a relatively short amount of time, acceptable to us all. 10-mans, that is. 25-mans are another story, which we have had limited success with. Although we all pass the gear checks, as a 25-man group, we're not coordinated enough, and a few of us just don't make the DPS cuts. What does that mean? Obviously Blizzard is doing something right with making 25-man content more difficult than 10-man. Obviously, there is still an amount of prestige to be had if you're wearing that armor, but since it looks almost identical to 10-man armor, and armor acquired through tokens, the hardcore crowd is pitching a fit.

Sad, because I think Blizzard is actually doing the RIGHT thing by offering different ways to different people to play a game, and giving people incentives to get that armor to feel like they are capable of the raids that people SHOULD be playing. Just my two cents.

Personally I love the change. As someone that works 12 hour shifts, I got major raid burn out last year.

After we took down Kael'thas and Lady Vashj and prcoeeded to finish Hyjal/BT, I'd had enough. When wotlk came along I did try to get back into raiding but just could stand it any longer.

Basically up till this last patch unless you loved arenas or raiding 3-4 times a week you were pretty stuffed for obtaining nice shiny's. Now by the end of this month I should have kitted out 1 or 2 alts and a main character with more than a few bits of nice gear.

Blizzard will keep my custom for a few more months at least. Still very concerned about cataclysm though, that could well be too casual even for me!

Many discussion and debate is centered on terminology. Thus far, there hasn't been any undisputed definition for what it means to be a casual gamer vs. a hardcore gamer vs. a skilled gamer vs. a veteran gamer. There's aspects that people have put into each category that may apply for another.

I think a casual gamer is someone who logs relatively few consecutive or total hours during any given week due to whatever reason that they are not playing the game. A hardcore game is someone who plays religiously, treating the game as their happy job. I do not equate skill with time logged, and I think that's the root with a lot of negative connotation of the word casual and hardcore. A skilled gamer is someone who is able to maximize the potential of their character, gaining respect as a good player from their fellow teammates as well as their opponents. A veteran gamer is someone who has stayed with the game for a set amount of time (whether it'd be BETA or launch), and it is regardless of how many hours they log on average per week.

In my humble opinion, no player falls into just one box. It's unfair to force that issue, just like all the bashing WoW has got for trying to incorporate all of those types of players into the game. Whether or not they are doing a good job, well, that's not for me to say since I stopped playing about 2 years back.

I will say that from what I've been following up with recent activities in WoW, there are many disgruntled players, and there are still many who rave about the game. Ultimately it comes down to money. As long as there is a "healthy" number (aka giving Blizzard their revenue cow), WoW will continue to its imperfect and quite frankly impossible to perfect way of keeping our eyeballs glued to the computer screen.

Originally posted by Unibrow

The problem is that hardcore players don't feel "epic" anymore. It used to be a status symbol to carry around that T3 armor, you had achieved something that about 2% of the WoW population achieved (can't find the article, will look it up).

Seriously, 2% of WoW players got to complete AQ40 and Naxx. That's not a whole lot. At all. Even if they only had 2mil subscribers then, that's still a very few.

Thus, the devs are trying to open end-game content up to casual players as well as hardcore players. They're giving you different options to acquire the gear. They want more than a handful of people to experience end-game content, more than a handful to take on Arthas when he arrives.

In my book? Not such a bad idea. Just because someone who wears the armor that I wear, but acquired it in a different fashion, doesn't ruin the game for me. As long as they put in the same amount of work that I do for it. Whether that's grinding dailies and heroics over and over again, or painfully gathering mats to craft something of close-to-equal value... not such a big deal to me.

Now, I don't rate myself as hardcore, I'd say I'm casual. But I do consider myself skilled enough, and my guildmates skilled enough, to make it through everything thus far in a relatively short amount of time, acceptable to us all. 10-mans, that is. 25-mans are another story, which we have had limited success with. Although we all pass the gear checks, as a 25-man group, we're not coordinated enough, and a few of us just don't make the DPS cuts. What does that mean? Obviously Blizzard is doing something right with making 25-man content more difficult than 10-man. Obviously, there is still an amount of prestige to be had if you're wearing that armor, but since it looks almost identical to 10-man armor, and armor acquired through tokens, the hardcore crowd is pitching a fit.

Sad, because I think Blizzard is actually doing the RIGHT thing by offering different ways to different people to play a game, and giving people incentives to get that armor to feel like they are capable of the raids that people SHOULD be playing. Just my two cents.

It has become harder to get 'respect' by simply flashing your epic bling.  You can actually tell a lot about a character by studying their achievements but it takes knowledge of the game to interpret things properly.  So the good players still get recognition but only from other players who 'have been there'.  Those who want to be 'worshipped by the masses' are out of luck. 

Originally posted by djFEVA

Many discussion and debate is centered on terminology. Thus far, there hasn't been any undisputed definition for what it means to be a casual gamer vs. a hardcore gamer vs. a skilled gamer vs. a veteran gamer. There's aspects that people have put into each category that may apply for another.

I think a casual gamer is someone who logs relatively few consecutive or total hours during any given week due to whatever reason that they are not playing the game. A hardcore game is someone who plays religiously, treating the game as their happy job. I do not equate skill with time logged, and I think that's the root with a lot of negative connotation of the word casual and hardcore. A skilled gamer is someone who is able to maximize the potential of their character, gaining respect as a good player from their fellow teammates as well as their opponents. A veteran gamer is someone who has stayed with the game for a set amount of time (whether it'd be BETA or launch), and it is regardless of how many hours they log on average per week.

In my humble opinion, no player falls into just one box. It's unfair to force that issue, just like all the bashing WoW has got for trying to incorporate all of those types of players into the game. Whether or not they are doing a good job, well, that's not for me to say since I stopped playing about 2 years back.

I will say that from what I've been following up with recent activities in WoW, there are many disgruntled players, and there are still many who rave about the game. Ultimately it comes down to money. As long as there is a "healthy" number (aka giving Blizzard their revenue cow), WoW will continue to its imperfect and quite frankly impossible to perfect way of keeping our eyeballs glued to the computer screen.

Very nice post! I understand your point and this can be put into many other games as well.
 

But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.

These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".

If these changes are in addition to and not replacing then who cares?   Only the jealous/selfish few would care less if they add casual content to the game.  As long as they dont replace or take away the content already there and expected in the game.  Otherwise so what if others dont have to punish themselfs the same as you did?  They should give a badge or something who do complete the more difficult content to be fair.   Like a no whimp badge.   And im sorry I had to laugh at "the good player" doesnt get respect.   Come on man its a mmo.  Its not like were making as much as a tennis pro playing quake or other FPS requiring dead on reflex and hard core practice hours like other sports.   I sure the hell cant compete with that lot and put in more hours than most and I  "get no respect".   Should start a comedy bit but that lines been taken.   Mmo's are a second life to some I understand but expecting respect from a toon for flashing epic bling is taking things a little too far. 

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

TOC  is about the only reason to play the game anymore. I don't expect raid quality gear as I  made the choice not to raid as I have a job and kids.  So in the less than 10 hours I get a week it is nice to have something to do that is enjoyable again.

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

Exactly..... I'm so tired of hearing that people don't have the time to invest to get good items. Well.. I suggest playing a single player game or not playing at all because I work 12 hours a day and play for 2-4 a day and I still have time to enjoy what I can. The problem is that the casual complainer wants everything to be easy so they can be equal but that's no different than the guy working 4 hours wanting the same pay as me, does that sound right? NO!.

This is an old debate and we all know the outcome these days with MMOs let's make is easy because people are cry babies and don't want a challenge but in the meantime the casuals stay on the forums 24/7. I quit WoW a while back because the end game is pointless and after you have the best gear what's the point to keep playing? More gear? The new expansion is just a new carrot that has more levels to do and the blacksmithing is still pointless and pvp is for what? No goals.

Originally posted by Hives

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

 

Exactly..... I'm so tired of hearing that people don't have the time to invest to get good items. Well.. I suggest playing a single player game or not playing at all because I work 12 hours a day and play for 2-4 a day and I still have time to enjoy what I can. The problem is that the casual complainer wants everything to be easy so they can be equal but that's no different than the guy working 4 hours wanting the same pay as me, does that sound right? NO!.

This is an old debate and we all know the outcome these days with MMOs let's make is easy because people are cry babies and don't want a challenge but in the meantime the casuals stay on the forums 24/7. I quit WoW a while back because the end game is pointless and after you have the best gear what's the point to keep playing? More gear? The new expansion is just a new carrot that has more levels to do and the blacksmithing is still pointless and pvp is for what? No goals.

Lol your argument against playing WOW can be applied to every MMO ever made. What is the reason for end game playing if not to get better gear? And to those that state that anyone can get the good epics easily and fast obviously have not played and do not know what they are talking about. It may be relatively easy to get the epics but it is not fast. It takes time to collect the badges to get the gear. And still a casual player will not be able to get the best gear in the game. Legendary Items cannot be gotten in any other way than being a Hardcore player. Then there are the Achievements that award Items that you cannot get unless you are the elite. There are still those weapons and mounts you see people with that inspire aww.  And the new raid dungeon has gear that is better than anything a casual player can get and very few people actually have the gear.

But I guess a few better Items for the hardcore is not enough they have to have everything. They want to be the only ones that see all of the game. Do they pay anymore for the game than anyone else? 

---

Originally posted by gorillaz951
But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.
These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".

---

Sounds like you need to get off the PvP servers. The average age of the players goes up at least 10 years going from PvP to PvE and another 2-3 years going to RP PvE.

Come to think of it... What you are talking about has been true for EVERY PvP game I have ever played.

In UO they would camp outside of cities killing every new player who tried to leave the cities.

In Lineage 2, they would walk up to you while you were fighting mobs and hit you over and over to make you weak so the mobs would kill you. If you attacked back them and their 3 buddy's would drop you instantly stealing your loot.

In Eve.... Gods. Just bend over, the kiddies run the freaking show.

I could go on and on. But let me leave it at. PvP attracts far more kids who want to take out their anger on people then it attracts adults looking for a good fight.

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

Humbug.  The truly competive people still get the best gear and the respect for being on the cutting edge.  The problem is that the players realized that the 'hardcore' did not really put that much more real effort in the game and got massive rewards for stuff that was time-consuming, tedious but not really that challenging. 

WoW has finally turned away from the 'you are what you have' mentality and instead focuses on the 'you are what you do' aspects. 

I think the best part of WoW was and always will be the adventure from 1-50-60-70-80+

As an MMO vet, very few of the end-game instances/raids really had the WOW factor they should have...and I actually enjoy the tongue-in-cheek humor of the game (Linkens sword of mastery, anyone?)  Now there are certainly cases of laugh worthy quest titles and rewards in the newer content...but not nearly as much, or as good, as the earlier stuff.  I can't imagine how much will be removed for cataclysm.

Now, it seems like WoW is trying to cater both to the casual gamer and the power gamer...but failing on both accounts.

But thats how most mmos are...the first expansion blows your mind, then every one thereafter shaves a bit of the fan-base off.

Honestly, it is pointless to have a game that caters only to the long term, hardcore gamers.  Hardcore gamers, while they may spend more individually, are a minority of gamers and casual gamers collectively spend more than the small smattering of hardcore gamers combined.  Good for Blizzard for finally recognizing not everyone games 24/7/365.

I've played off and on for some time now, and I did think for a while that when I last went thru BC, I skipped most of the story.  It was too easy.  I loved it at the time because I was just interested in getting to WOTLK anyway.  But then I realized and still know today, I can just start up another character and take a different route.  That's what I like the best.  I don't see how people get bored unless you really played ever class/race combo.  Get tired of grinding levels?  Go BG.  Tired of getting your butt kicked in 2 vs 2, try out a small raid 10-man.  There seems like there is so much to do and not even enough time for me to even try it.  But maybe that just makes me a "casual" player.

2 cents.

Great another Vanilla vets QQ about WoW being Ez mode, god mmorpg.com must be desperate as hell to post such utter nonsense. WoW has a broad appeal, every time Blizzard adds something for those players who don’t sock poop and live in Mommy’s basement we get Bullshit pieces like this. The bottom line is if you find WoW too easy try uninstalling those 450 face roll add-ons you use, or maybe actually try to run a dungeon without reading every connect the dot walkthrough.

At the end of the day no one gives a fuck that you find something that was created for entertainment unchallenging. If you want a challenge try designing chess programs in Pascal or better yet take your lard ass out of the basement and attempt to walk a mile without keeling over from a heart attack We have had enough of these dumbass post that basically say the same thing…”.I am no longer a special snowflake.”
 

Originally posted by todeswulf

Great another Vanilla vets QQ about WoW being Ez mode, god mmorpg.com must be desperate as hell to post such utter nonsense. WoW has a broad appeal, every time Blizzard adds something for those players who don’t sock poop and live in Mommy’s basement we get Bullshit pieces like this. The bottom line is if you find WoW too easy try uninstalling those 450 face roll add-ons you use, or maybe actually try to run a dungeon without reading every connect the dot walkthrough.

At the end of the day no one gives a fuck that you find something that was created for entertainment unchallenging. If you want a challenge try designing chess programs in Pascal or better yet take your lard ass out of the basement and attempt to walk a mile without keeling over from a heart attack We have had enough of these dumbass post that basically say the same thing…”.I am no longer a special snowflake.”
 

While I don’t necessarily agree with the content, I can respect the pwnage.

Originally posted by todeswulf

Great another Vanilla vets QQ about WoW being Ez mode, god mmorpg.com must be desperate as hell to post such utter nonsense. WoW has a broad appeal, every time Blizzard adds something for those players who don’t sock poop and live in Mommy’s basement we get Bullshit pieces like this. The bottom line is if you find WoW too easy try uninstalling those 450 face roll add-ons you use, or maybe actually try to run a dungeon without reading every connect the dot walkthrough.

At the end of the day no one gives a fuck that you find something that was created for entertainment unchallenging. If you want a challenge try designing chess programs in Pascal or better yet take your lard ass out of the basement and attempt to walk a mile without keeling over from a heart attack We have had enough of these dumbass post that basically say the same thing…”.I am no longer a special snowflake.”
 

and another one of the WotLK kiddie noobs facerolls the keyboard.

If you ever actually worked for anything in your life you know that you feel better when you get something you worked for rather than yelling Mommy this is too hard.

Seriously we need a game that is full of challenge that keeps us working and keeps us playing with something new each day as it takes that long to get through the levels and you learn to play your class right instead of thottbot cookie cutters running around using the same moves as the last tool.

There was a time when having the gear meant you were respected in the game and comments like this are the same as what trade chat is full of now.

I think that the majority of the groaning about WoW is comming from those that think that they are hardcore not those that are hardcore.  I find Blizzards approach interesting, vanilla wow 2-3% of players got to see the highest end content the end of TBC was what i like to call the great epic giveaway with the reduction of difficulty and access to new epics more players got to see the higher difficulty dungeons.  I would venture to say that the vast majority of players never saw anything close to "end game" content in TBC.  Now we have WoLK and each major content update has done some of what xpacs do to the game and this is what i find interesting so now with the argent tournament and heroic ToC and regular ToC you can get roughly uld 10 naxx 25 equivalent gear.  I would venture to say that anyone that needed gear from these instances is an alt or never saw a full clear of naxx 25 or even naxx 10 unless they got a superior pug.  Badges have also been reworked allowing people to get some gear from heroic farming and letting the more casual player attempt uld 10 or maybe 25...would these players ever cut it in a end game raiding guild, probably not considering most of them probably do not play many hours a week.  Blizzards approach is quite logical here they are allowing people that would otherwise never see the inside of most of these instances the gear to attempt them and have a little fun they allow time extensions on raid ID's why do you think that is...so people that otherwise would not have the time in a week to complete an instance have a chance to clear it.  The kicker here is that the people that play a lot but dont cut it for a major raiding guild are not longer vastly superior to the average kid that plays a few hours a week and i am sure that there are more than a few bruised egos.  Access to the most difficult content is now the distinguishing factor not i played a lot for the last year and got some good pugs and i have better gear than most casuals.  Blizzard is raising the bar but they are raising it from the bottom picking up the majority of their player base to allow them access to content that they would otherwise never see and for the most part none of these people will ever see arthas besides on a youtube video.

sorry for the wall of text guess i got carried away with my explination and didnt use many paragraph breaks and such. :p

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Everyone i know likes it.

And it is not as easy as the author has indicated.

My guild has tried TOC 10, and the tank is not geared enough to get through all of it. Just the first boss took us a few tries. It is not undoable but it will take a few weeks/months before even a big fraction of the guilds can have it on farm. And don't forget 25 man & hard mode.

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M. I don't think Blizzard has anything to worry about making the game too easy.

If you go to wow-heroes.com, as of NOW, on my server, calestrasz, there are like only 20 guilds who have clear anything in TOC 10, out of >200. None has cleared everything. ONLY 6 guilds have down any TOC 25 boss.

It will be months before even half of the guilds are having any of these in farm.

 

That isn't challenge, that is just a time sink. Those bosses haven't been taken down not because they are that difficult to beat, but because players haven't grinded enough to get the gear to beat them. I never found any of the raids I did in WoW challenging, the only challenging was grinding enough so that I could have good enough gear to beat the encounter.

The difficulty should be in the encounter, not the time it takes to have enough gear to beat it.

I think the real problem is that every hard core player doesn't have much success in real life(work, studies, girls, etc).

Most of them have nasty jobs with lower wages, working a lot hours per day (8+ or 12 like some people are saying here) and are a 0 at school. I've played in blade's edge and and I've trialed a guild named Fortuna, and there were even a lot of 25+ year old guys that still lived in their parents home and had very trash jobs like carrying bags in airports, some didn't even had a job and where unemployed. And fortuna isn't even an harcore guild, eventough they are on top of the horde guilds on the server.

They always hanged on to mmorpgs to beat the guys that play casual and that normally have more success than them in RL, and to have a chance of being recognised in anything.

Mmorpgs are the easiest way for hard core gamers to have some success in anything without the need to have a good academic profile, or a good reputation at work,  you just need to spend some time in mmorpgs to achieve that (3 to 4 hours per day, 5 days a week). Playing more hours and having tighter raid schedules  than casuals is the only way to beat them.

The problem comes when hard core gamers shout out loud that "their" game is not meant to allow  casual players that pay the same monthly fee as they do to have some success in "their" game and achieve some glory in "their" game. If blizzard listens to hard core gamers, you see casual players leaving and they might be 70% of their playerbase. If they don't, you see hard core gamers cry on forums, but they are just too addicted to leave, mostly because they don't have anything else to  hang on to, and because wow is "their game".

I believe blizzard is getting smarter, and they are opening the game to casual players, but they are leaving the heroic and epic achievements for hardcore gamers. HC gamers just don't like casuals to wear pretty gear, and they cry.

 Threads like this are always filled with such diverse opinions, and while some are interested, it all boils down to:

1- Players that play for fun

2-Players that need to feel important, need reassurance in their lives, etc, but having "in-game status"

I think, maybe, blizzard is actually investing a little bit more into 1 than 2, so people are whining. You want to acomplish something? Do so IRL, games are pixels so you can have fun, not to stroke your ego because you are, in fact, no one.

Originally posted by nkryptik

Originally posted by todeswulf

Great another Vanilla vets QQ about WoW being Ez mode, god mmorpg.com must be desperate as hell to post such utter nonsense. WoW has a broad appeal, every time Blizzard adds something for those players who don’t sock poop and live in Mommy’s basement we get Bullshit pieces like this. The bottom line is if you find WoW too easy try uninstalling those 450 face roll add-ons you use, or maybe actually try to run a dungeon without reading every connect the dot walkthrough.

At the end of the day no one gives a fuck that you find something that was created for entertainment unchallenging. If you want a challenge try designing chess programs in Pascal or better yet take your lard ass out of the basement and attempt to walk a mile without keeling over from a heart attack We have had enough of these dumbass post that basically say the same thing…”.I am no longer a special snowflake.”
 

 

and another one of the WotLK kiddie noobs facerolls the keyboard.

 

If you ever actually worked for anything in your life you know that you feel better when you get something you worked for rather than yelling Mommy this is too hard.

Seriously we need a game that is full of challenge that keeps us working and keeps us playing with something new each day as it takes that long to get through the levels and you learn to play your class right instead of thottbot cookie cutters running around using the same moves as the last tool.

There was a time when having the gear meant you were respected in the game and comments like this are the same as what trade chat is full of now.

Um, you do realize we are talking about video games right? You know - games....things where people have fun and play to enjoy them?

You speak of WOW and games as if its the most important thing ever. It seems you are trying to equate making WOW easier to being given a car or a house or a check for $1000. There is a major difference - real life vs. virtual life.

And not everyone plays to enjoy a challenge. Some people like the lack of one and find it more relaxing. I am challenged every day at work; I do not want to come home and have to do trig, physics and astronomy just to be able to play my game. If I did, I would play a harder game.

And to be honest, I could care less about being respected in a game. Who the hell cares about that? I will spend my time being respected in real life among my friends, family and colleagues.

Originally posted by nkryptik

Originally posted by todeswulf

Great another Vanilla vets QQ about WoW being Ez mode, god mmorpg.com must be desperate as hell to post such utter nonsense. WoW has a broad appeal, every time Blizzard adds something for those players who don’t sock poop and live in Mommy’s basement we get Bullshit pieces like this. The bottom line is if you find WoW too easy try uninstalling those 450 face roll add-ons you use, or maybe actually try to run a dungeon without reading every connect the dot walkthrough.

At the end of the day no one gives a fuck that you find something that was created for entertainment unchallenging. If you want a challenge try designing chess programs in Pascal or better yet take your lard ass out of the basement and attempt to walk a mile without keeling over from a heart attack We have had enough of these dumbass post that basically say the same thing…”.I am no longer a special snowflake.”
 

 

and another one of the WotLK kiddie noobs facerolls the keyboard.

 

If you ever actually worked for anything in your life you know that you feel better when you get something you worked for rather than yelling Mommy this is too hard.

Seriously we need a game that is full of challenge that keeps us working and keeps us playing with something new each day as it takes that long to get through the levels and you learn to play your class right instead of thottbot cookie cutters running around using the same moves as the last tool.

There was a time when having the gear meant you were respected in the game and comments like this are the same as what trade chat is full of now.

Oh your mean words...they burn. /smirk

Ass, I have worked for many things in my life, I worked my way through college, five long years (I doubled majored) on third shift in a textile mill, that was worthwhile. WoW is a game you myopic dilettante. Wow has plenty of things to keep people working, that isn't what your'e upset over you are upset because WoW can no longer provide a place where for once in your miserable existence you are big news. If you honestly think that a few pixels ever bought you respect then I have a bridge to sell you.
 

I like the fact that they are starting to realize the game is not supposed to be a second life.  Let raiders and others of their ilk have their pieces of the game but don't forget those of us with active RLs. I don't care if it takes me months to get something accomplished. These "hardcores' who think we just want instant gratification are delusional. I don't know anyone who wants it now they just want the chance to get it differently. Whether it be 100+ step quests or some other system.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Everyone i know likes it.

And it is not as easy as the author has indicated.

My guild has tried TOC 10, and the tank is not geared enough to get through all of it. Just the first boss took us a few tries. It is not undoable but it will take a few weeks/months before even a big fraction of the guilds can have it on farm. And don't forget 25 man & hard mode.

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M. I don't think Blizzard has anything to worry about making the game too easy.

If you go to wow-heroes.com, as of NOW, on my server, calestrasz, there are like only 20 guilds who have clear anything in TOC 10, out of >200. None has cleared everything. ONLY 6 guilds have down any TOC 25 boss.

It will be months before even half of the guilds are having any of these in farm.

 

 

That isn't challenge, that is just a time sink. Those bosses haven't been taken down not because they are that difficult to beat, but because players haven't grinded enough to get the gear to beat them. I never found any of the raids I did in WoW challenging, the only challenging was grinding enough so that I could have good enough gear to beat the encounter.

The difficulty should be in the encounter, not the time it takes to have enough gear to beat it.

While I partially agree with what you say, I can't agree with all of it. It's true that it's a time sink, such is the nature for MMOs to keep you subscribing and collecting money. However, your average casual player still has plenty of difficulty with the 10-mans, and it provides a challenge for them, much less the 25-mans.

If you go to the forums, you'll see plenty of people listing their DPS against Patchwerk at 5-6k. Not too shabby for the gear required for Naxx. However, a casual guild has plenty of people that still struggle to hit 2k. Partially because of gear, but more so because they're casual. The 25-mans are more for skilled players, players that can take orders, players that have worked on their spell rotation or their reactions to bosses, etc. And I still know of quite a few casual guilds that run 25-mans, but it takes them multiple months to clear the place simply because they don't have the skill to defeat them.

This, of course, begs the question: what makes an encounter difficult? Is Patchwerk considered difficult? He can be for the gear check, but beyond that, he's a tank-and-spank. However, the other bosses require things that gear can't give you -- timing, coordination, reaction. awareness, etc. For instance, one of my favorites is the 4 Horsemen. A more complex fight considering the tactics used to defeat them. It's just plain fun to have the coordination of switching the bosses as the debuffs stack up.

Then again, I suppose the skilled or hardcore player, may get tired of these "gimmicks" thrown in and still view the content as "easy", but a vast majority DON'T think it's easy at all. So then, what would make a skilled player, or a hardcore player, happy? What kind of boss encounter would make the game more appealing? Truthfully, the more I read these posts, or posts like these, I wonder if the bosses are the root of the problem.

You see, every boss of every game is quite the same -- a scripted event, in which when certain conditions are met, certain actions are taken. It's been this way since NES days. Not much has changed at all. I think what might make more hardcore players happy is having a dynamic enemy, one that thinks and will use different tactics according to your tactics... oh, wait, that's PvP, nevermind. This whole post was pointless.

 I raided throughout college and got my degree on-time.  Clearing all of BC raiding was an amazing amount of fun to work together as a raid group, helping people get better and being able to clear things with a fair amount of difficulty to take down.  All raiding should take practice and a thing called "progression" is not all grind, some people actually enjoy learning how to kill things with several people, and several phases, working as a team...Archimonde (without those sad log hugging people) was a tad ridiculous though.

With the newest expansion, raid content was cleared with an unparalleled ease - I even did level 80 5 mans at 66 getting crushed like a madman using leftover sunwell gear & greens/blues as you found em.  That was more fun than -any- of the raiding in this expansion, as it was a challenge to fight far undergeared & underleveled.  Actual raid instance clearing can be done in a single night for some and by a guild to farm in a month :/.

Difficulty by removing people from a raid, having you not get hit by anything a boss casts, or doing things with perfect time scales is not "difficult" it's frivolous.  "Achievement raiding" is a sad excuse for content and the new expansion's content (or revamping of the old) is too little too late...it could of been done long before, when it was still fresh to mind and lore pertinent.

While WoW is a good MMO and argueablely the best (I personally prefer FFXI) it has become "Casualcraft" and it's a shame.  At least looking back over the last few years you had something to look forward to, a raid you could not reach or some things you just lacked time for...now is all just accessible to the 5 year vet or the 1 month n00b.  Now with a full-time job I couldn't raid like I did, but I still wholeheartily agree with "put the time & earn it" like it was and like you will never see again - in any MMO :( as its a classical MMO ideal, to die with the ages as did "hell levels".

Blizzard is a business through & through.  Power and Casual Gaming make you money, so of course that's how their business plans will go...I just hope it doesn't effect the quality of design put into their other current LPs - we shall see :)

 PS.  Gear has become less and less an issue as time has passed.  Banks full of potions, scrolls, and resistance gear is a thing of the past - and skill can makeup for quite a bit of lack of gear (with exception to only the tanks, which as one - it was never a problem for me...I had over half my tier set in 2 weeks after release of WotLK :/)

Too much emphasis on gear, not enough on skill.

But that has been wow from the beginning.   In fact, its true of most mmos...

agreed

Originally posted by gorillaz951

Originally posted by djFEVA

Many discussion and debate is centered on terminology. Thus far, there hasn't been any undisputed definition for what it means to be a casual gamer vs. a hardcore gamer vs. a skilled gamer vs. a veteran gamer. There's aspects that people have put into each category that may apply for another.

I think a casual gamer is someone who logs relatively few consecutive or total hours during any given week due to whatever reason that they are not playing the game. A hardcore game is someone who plays religiously, treating the game as their happy job. I do not equate skill with time logged, and I think that's the root with a lot of negative connotation of the word casual and hardcore. A skilled gamer is someone who is able to maximize the potential of their character, gaining respect as a good player from their fellow teammates as well as their opponents. A veteran gamer is someone who has stayed with the game for a set amount of time (whether it'd be BETA or launch), and it is regardless of how many hours they log on average per week.

In my humble opinion, no player falls into just one box. It's unfair to force that issue, just like all the bashing WoW has got for trying to incorporate all of those types of players into the game. Whether or not they are doing a good job, well, that's not for me to say since I stopped playing about 2 years back.

I will say that from what I've been following up with recent activities in WoW, there are many disgruntled players, and there are still many who rave about the game. Ultimately it comes down to money. As long as there is a "healthy" number (aka giving Blizzard their revenue cow), WoW will continue to its imperfect and quite frankly impossible to perfect way of keeping our eyeballs glued to the computer screen.

Very nice post! I understand your point and this can be put into many other games as well.
 

But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.

These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".

lol, I was trying to be nice, and stay non-political about the players that drive you absolutely crazy... whether it's total lack of understanding in how they play their character or other above things that you've mentioned already.

Originally posted by Shreddi

If these changes are in addition to and not replacing then who cares?   Only the jealous/selfish few would care less if they add casual content to the game.  As long as they dont replace or take away the content already there and expected in the game.  Otherwise so what if others dont have to punish themselfs the same as you did?  They should give a badge or something who do complete the more difficult content to be fair.   Like a no whimp badge.   And im sorry I had to laugh at "the good player" doesnt get respect.   Come on man its a mmo.  Its not like were making as much as a tennis pro playing quake or other FPS requiring dead on reflex and hard core practice hours like other sports.   I sure the hell cant compete with that lot and put in more hours than most and I  "get no respect".   Should start a comedy bit but that lines been taken.   Mmo's are a second life to some I understand but expecting respect from a toon for flashing epic bling is taking things a little too far. 

I don't equate having epic bling with respect. Having gear only means you are a part of a compotent guild, one has been coordinated enough to get through the content in which those pieces are dropped. It does not, however, say anything about the skill level of the individual player. Although you do get a glimps of that by the kinds of enchantments and jewels the armor has.

By respect, I mean as a competitive player, you feel challenged and inspired to play the game and/or play with/against that particular player. In a guild that would this player has position of authority or leadership. In gameplay, it would mean that player makes smart decisions that contribute to the success of whatever he/she is doing. This is what makes me respect a player.

Originally posted by Yauchy

 I raided throughout college and got my degree on-time.  Clearing all of BC raiding was an amazing amount of fun to work together as a raid group, helping people get better and being able to clear things with a fair amount of difficulty to take down.  All raiding should take practice and a thing called "progression" is not all grind, some people actually enjoy learning how to kill things with several people, and several phases, working as a team...Archimonde (without those sad log hugging people) was a tad ridiculous though.

With the newest expansion, raid content was cleared with an unparalleled ease - I even did level 80 5 mans at 66 getting crushed like a madman using leftover sunwell gear & greens/blues as you found em.  That was more fun than -any- of the raiding in this expansion, as it was a challenge to fight far undergeared & underleveled.  Actual raid instance clearing can be done in a single night for some and by a guild to farm in a month :/.

Difficulty by removing people from a raid, having you not get hit by anything a boss casts, or doing things with perfect time scales is not "difficult" it's frivolous.  "Achievement raiding" is a sad excuse for content and the new expansion's content (or revamping of the old) is too little too late...it could of been done long before, when it was still fresh to mind and lore pertinent.

While WoW is a good MMO and argueablely the best (I personally prefer FFXI) it has become "Casualcraft" and it's a shame.  At least looking back over the last few years you had something to look forward to, a raid you could not reach or some things you just lacked time for...now is all just accessible to the 5 year vet or the 1 month n00b.  Now with a full-time job I couldn't raid like I did, but I still wholeheartily agree with "put the time & earn it" like it was and like you will never see again - in any MMO :( as its a classical MMO ideal, to die with the ages as did "hell levels".

Blizzard is a business through & through.  Power and Casual Gaming make you money, so of course that's how their business plans will go...I just hope it doesn't effect the quality of design put into their other current LPs - we shall see :)

 PS.  Gear has become less and less an issue as time has passed.  Banks full of potions, scrolls, and resistance gear is a thing of the past - and skill can makeup for quite a bit of lack of gear (with exception to only the tanks, which as one - it was never a problem for me...I had over half my tier set in 2 weeks after release of WotLK :/)

you lie and you contradict yourself. you also tell a lot of nonsense,

There is still a lot to fight for.

As I recall, an official statement made by on of the Blue posters said that the dropping of T8/9 badges from heroics was intended as a bridge for the mid section of gamers.

 I think it also helps players to maybe gain entry to pug raids or half guid raids, that maybe before the changes would have been overlooked. I certainly see slightly less achievment/gear requirements asked for in LFG (dont have /2 switched on anymore.)

The mount changes were obvious really, they want to keep the same levelling time from tbc's 1-70 for 1-85 when cataclysm arrives. Also vanilla/tbc zone are pretty much voids gamewise now (most likely this has favoured the complete revamp planned for vanilla zones).

I can see why people have issues with all of this, jeez I remember being told off on my first molten core trip for using serpent sting on the first 2 molten giant mobs (back then all raid mobs had a max debuff limit of 8, those were almost exclusively for warlock curses, it was later increased to 16 and eventually went higher still.)

Point is I guess the faster levelling is only going to increase the number of unskilled players at max level, which of course when they complain about dungeon difficulty will lead to nerfing mobs/bosses in raids/dungeons, which of course is where we are now.

This is why I'll likely continue only till the end of this expansion (must at least see what happens to the lich king). I dont see myself as hardcore or even totally casual, but I do like to have some level of difficulty or achievment for stuff I do get in game.

(Oh yeah, I'm still pissed at what they did to the wintersaber questline, 3 month solid grind reduced to 5 days....major kick in the nuts that was, and then to have it show up in my achievment panel as completed in july this year - dont have many teeth left to grind these days :S)

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Originally posted by googajoob7

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Then who should have cater too? The 2% hardcore audience that grow bored in 2 months because they breeze through any and all content and then unsubscribe? The FFA PVP crowd?

Sorry the game's base is casual, it will continue to be casual and WOW will do fine relying just on casual players.

And by the way, casual players are not always younger and vice versa. The most casual players are the 30 somethings like myself that have been in the market for years and do not have the 10-12 hours a day to play anymore because we have kids, homes, jobs, etc.... We are the real casual player and by no means a "younger player".

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Then who should have cater too? The 2% hardcore audience that grow bored in 2 months because they breeze through any and all content and then unsubscribe? The FFA PVP crowd?

Sorry the game's base is casual, it will continue to be casual and WOW will do fine relying just on casual players.

And by the way, casual players are not always younger and vice versa. The most casual players are the 30 somethings like myself that have been in the market for years and do not have the 10-12 hours a day to play anymore because we have kids, homes, jobs, etc.... We are the real casual player and by no means a "younger player".

Because its getting so easy even casual players will get bored of the content within 4-6 months . it ll eventually lead to players staying for shorter periods of time before they move onto something new or more challenging . which is ok if you want WOW to be the entry level mmo . We can assume its already losing a lot of players given Blizzard havnt released subscription figures since last december ( even the situation in China would nt have stopped them releasing figures for the west if they were good )
 

Its simple if your happy in an mmo which gets progressivly easier and are willing to see the things you obtain become obsolete once every two years with each new expansion pack then Warcrafts the game for you . Blizzard dont have any respect for players that have stayed with game over years and invested time and money in it . You see the problem runs a lot deaper than what goes on in WOW its how Blizzard do buisness . short term profit over long term gameplay .

While they are ultimatly a buisness and in it to make money you have to maintain a certain sence of credibility in buisness or you lose money in the long term . And Blizzard are fast losing thiers as will become apparent in the coming months and years .

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Everyone i know likes it.

And it is not as easy as the author has indicated.

My guild has tried TOC 10, and the tank is not geared enough to get through all of it. Just the first boss took us a few tries. It is not undoable but it will take a few weeks/months before even a big fraction of the guilds can have it on farm. And don't forget 25 man & hard mode.

If you read MMO-champion, only TWO guilds in the world have cleared hardmode 25 man TOC. That is a total of 50 players out of 11M. I don't think Blizzard has anything to worry about making the game too easy.

If you go to wow-heroes.com, as of NOW, on my server, calestrasz, there are like only 20 guilds who have clear anything in TOC 10, out of >200. None has cleared everything. ONLY 6 guilds have down any TOC 25 boss.

It will be months before even half of the guilds are having any of these in farm.

 

Maybe the game has gotten too boring, the rewards uninspiring that most raiding guilds can't find the motivation to bother with the new content.

Their hearts just aren't in it.

Or maybe all the really good raiders have left the game and the 2nd string can't cut it. 

Originally posted by googajoob7

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Then who should have cater too? The 2% hardcore audience that grow bored in 2 months because they breeze through any and all content and then unsubscribe? The FFA PVP crowd?

Sorry the game's base is casual, it will continue to be casual and WOW will do fine relying just on casual players.

And by the way, casual players are not always younger and vice versa. The most casual players are the 30 somethings like myself that have been in the market for years and do not have the 10-12 hours a day to play anymore because we have kids, homes, jobs, etc.... We are the real casual player and by no means a "younger player".

Because its getting so easy even casual players will get bored of the content within 4-6 months . it ll eventually lead to players staying for shorter periods of time before they move onto something new or more challenging . which is ok if you want WOW to be the entry level mmo . We can assume its already losing a lot of players given Blizzard havnt released subscription figures since last december ( even the situation in China would nt have stopped them releasing figures for the west if they were good )
 

Its simple if your happy in an mmo which gets progressivly easier and are willing to see the things you obtain become obsolete once every two years with each new expansion pack then Warcrafts the game for you . Blizzard dont have any respect for players that have stayed with game over years and invested time and money in it . You see the problem runs a lot deaper than what goes on in WOW its how Blizzard do buisness . short term profit over long term gameplay .

While they are ultimatly a buisness and in it to make money you have to maintain a certain sence of credibility in buisness or you lose money in the long term . And Blizzard are fast losing thiers as will become apparent in the coming months and years .

Yep and that was said before BC launched, before WOTLK launched and has been said repeatedly for months on end. I guess if it is said enough, one day it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

What people don't understand is that Blizzard continually adds players. Look at sales charts and WOW is still a best seller over and over, month to month. New players are constantly being added to the game. And these players are new to MMO's and new to WOW. They don't know EQ from the NGE or SWG from Noob. They play WOW because it is a fun game.

Many, many posters here forget this. I would guess-timate that 75-80% of WOW's playerbase have only ever played WOW and aren't actively looking for MMO alternatives. If they do, they find out that most games aren't WOW. This is why games like WAR, AOC and even Aion I believe, see huge numbers to start but then huge drop-offs in players. For these players, WOW is it and if the game isn't more fun than WOW, they won't play it.

We who post here are not the mainstream MMO player anymore. We are the old school elites. We are not the target audience for MMO's anymore. We are a niche. We (well some of us) want sandboxes and FFA PVP. We want our EQ's and Planetside, not TOR and DCUO.

This is why players are so split over WOW. WOW is the market, it is the mainstream game and it is what MMO's have become, be it good or bad. WOW and games like it are the future of MMO's......just look at the games that are coming out. Like it or not, that is how it will be.

I persoanly don't think any Hardcore gamer will ever fully understand a Casual gamers mind set, as pretty much any one who is casual really gets the point of breing Hardcore.

The suggestion that casual players will walk away in a few months is wishful thinking (for the Games demise) at best, most of the folks I pay with are Casual. A guild with over 50 members all dedicated to just having fun. As the poster a couple of posts above said, most of us are in our 30's, have at least 2 lvl 80 chars, some of us many more.

We can do 10mans and Heroics happily, but due to family comitments can't get 25mans off the ground, although members of our guild have been known to go with raiding guilds to make up the numbers so some have experienced it.

We're not going anywhere, all of us are desperate for Cataclysm, to lvl new alts, see new content, and I assure you we will have lots of fun doing so.

Regarding the thing about folks wanting to walk around in epic gear and get the Ooo's and Aaa's they used to, well thats been replaced now by achievements surely. Stuff like the 'Immortal' title, or even something goofy like the 'Insane' title is much more likely to make me raise an eyebrow than any items of gear. Its those kind of titles that show a hardcore individual now, not what epics they are wearing ?

If it took you this long to seriously realize that Blizzard has gone off the deep end for the casual gamers, then that is incredibly sad. Once patch 2.0 came out, it was plainly obvious to people who didn't even play the game that is where they were headed. I mean really, gender confused elves on the Horde side and Space Goats on the Alliance was just the start of their quick trek downhill.

I see casual, hardcore and other completely meaningless terms being thrown around and posts and implications made based upon some random definitions of these. There are however several factors to consider, raw time invested, gaming skill, schedule, in game activity preference, etc. A person can play 15 hours a day and still be a simply bad gamer and capable of simple quests at best.

To get the best gear in the game, which is how you progress once you are on lvl cap, you don't particulary need huge amounts of time, you however need skill and being able to keep schedule, since raiding is an activity you have to organize among many players.

WOW shifted to provide rewards for players with both not enough time (quick epic drops in 5 mans, slowly gathering badges, dailies...) and at the same time to those that lack skill, you know, those who stand in fire (again dailies, farming 5 mans, quests, grind achievements... ). This happens more and more every expansion and major patch. Raid content is getting trivial, catered to guilds populated by in-fire-standers. Last little hope are the hard modes, which are not that very hard anyway.

Gear lost any kind of uniqueness, models are completely the same, I guess to make the ones incapable to get the higher item level pieces to feel good, since they can still look the same as a raider geared in full hard mode loot. Epic is no longer epic at all.

Seems most people are under the assumption that MMO is about (solo) quests, especially leveling part. Personally if I play PVE MMO, I do it for cooperative PVE, ie dungeons. Sadly the 5 mens got completely trivial, no CC is ever needed, the party just zooms through the instance. The new(WOTLK) 5 man dungeons are generic, short and boring, again catered so they can be done in 30 minutes or farmed for badges. Gone are the days of magical journeys to BRD or UBRS or having a challenging 5 man dungeon (last 1 was probably Magisters Terrace, while at it, compare the difficulty and effort needed in that incarnation of epic dropping 5 man vs the current incarnation of epic dropping TOC).

This is one of the subjects that could be discussed ad nausea, in fact its happening all the time on many boards in many topics.

The game has always been for casual players. Adding all that top end raid content seems to me to be their way of catering to hardcore players.

however, of all the mmo players I know (in real life) they only play WoW and they play casually with friends, family, etc. WoW is huge BECAUSE of casual players.

Mr. Grucza:
“most would agree that in order to have an MMORPG be successful and sustain a healthy player base, it must cater to every type of player that comes its way.”

It is only a ridiculous marketing attitude that wants us to believe that one MMO can attract all types of players. It does not matter what your preferences are; perma death or no death penatly, casual or hardcore crafting, family rating or mature rating, housing or no housing.

They want your money so they have to appeal to us all. Even when what we want is diametricaly opposed. This can only lead to staid formula MMO’s which end up pleasing no one and being no more than bearable to the majority.

So it is in the interests of MMO companies to convince us that what they see as the avergae fit, is the best fit for us all. That is why the mediocre, middle of the road model is perpetualy being trumpeted as what we want, no matter how many of us say it is not.

As a casual player that has his life guided by work, family and other things, it was always frustrating for me not that I can't get the best gear - never cared much about that, but that I couldn't see half of the game storyline-wise. 

I'm one of the players that reads every quest text and enjoys discovering things about history, conecting overarching story into more or less one whole and then it suddenly stops half way

I think it is a step into a right dirrection definitely. Give me a possibility to do some quests that wrap up the storyline for the expansion, even though I don't have to be the one to kill the hardest bosses, give everyone a possibility to interact with them and the overall story, give everyone some decent quest rewards from those that they can feel they acchieved something. Reserve the best gear for the people who can and are whilling to invest time and energy, but don't leave everyone else halfway - I did not buy half of the expansion, I bought the entire thing.

There could be a quest for example that you can let's say your goal is to go into the dungeon, find some thing and your goal is to run away from some boss instead of killing it ... that would be fun, and have some adrenaline involved :)

I think they are doing the right thing for everyone involved.

Originally posted by Sovrath

The game has always been for casual players. Adding all that top end raid content seems to me to be their way of catering to hardcore players.

however, of all the mmo players I know (in real life) they only play WoW and they play casually with friends, family, etc. WoW is huge BECAUSE of casual players.

Actually, I would say it was originially for the semi-hardcore. They tried to bring the hardcore 'feel' of EQ and the "I don't feel like killing myself to wait for a spawn that has a 7day timer"-mentality together. In the beginning it worked...but now they are leaning more towards the latter half; and taken it to the extreme.

They've also gotten lazy and still haven't changed their minds on what certain classes should do. Go to Heroisim vendor and Dressing Room one of the boots (like the plate healing), now find the matching tier 7 set; yep that's right the ONLY set that matches the boots is holy paladin. Go look at the tanking boots; only set that matches is the warrior set....just some suttle hints as to what role your class is suppose to play.

[i]BBL: Farming ToC(5R) for more purples[/i]

you wanna keep a mmo always fresh and healthy? never raise the level cap, ever. do that and you will always have three times the content you would if you raised the cap and had to make higher level content.

Imagine a wow at level 60 right now. not only you would still have northrend instances and raids, but all TBC, all vanilla azeroth. the amount of content available would be amazing and all the continents would be flourishing. outland now lives up to the legend, its a barren, deserted, dead place and like azeroth, is now only a bus stop.

Taking bullshitting around epics apart, most of WoW players know what high-end epics sound like. Furious, and now full Rentless with T2 weapons geared players will still have that "awe of epicness", as people with Mirmiron's head mount for example. Yogg-Saron 0K on 25 was the hardest encounter in WoW, next to C'Thun, a lil' bit harder than M'uru pre-nerfs. Now they nerfed it, but it's still a very hard encounter.

Here's a fact however: the time WoW had the most hardcore raiding dungeons was TBC.

From Karazhan to Sunwell(all pre-nerfs) your average guild took weeks to progress, including how gearing up from heroics was mandatory and those heroics couldn't be accessed without a key gained at revered reputation with the specific faction. Nightbane in Karazhan was harder than OS 3D 10 man and some Ulduar hardmodes.
Not to mention, the beautiful music and art in Karazhan, Black Temple and such, made TBC a trully epic expansion(You honestly can't call yourself a serious WoW raiderif you didn't do Black Temple and Karazhan pre-nerfs).

The 2 big problems with BC was:
1. Casuals: Casuals couldn't even see Hyjal, BT and some of them not even TK and SSC, because of attunement chains. Blizzard eventually removed these and made them give titles. You suddenly see casual guilds do all bosses till SSC/TK, 3/4 SSC, 3/4 TK and first bosses from Hyjal/BT(these had some blocks for unexperienced guilds like Gorefiend).
2. Raid stacking: While casual problem was semi, if not fully fixed, this was the big problem: raid stacking. You couldn't tank Illidan without a warrior(prot palas did it with BiS sunwell gear, and BiS sunwell gear is sometimes better than level 80 blues). You needed a shitload of shamans for Sunwell. Removing raid stacking, they also nerfed tanking by a lot, making it far easier for new people(hated this change).

Did they make the right choice with WOTLK? God knows, because even by keeping the "hardcore raids" with attunements that wouldn't allow average guilds to see more than 2-3 raids, WoW's subs would have stayed the same. But when someone starts a MMORPG, it should treat it as such. WoW isn't like TF2, where you jump in and have fun in a matter of seconds. MMOs (used to) were always designed as serious hobbies for gamers who had a lot fo time.

I really don't like the way WoW's going to. Heroics are easier than normal dungeons, and only 3-4 hardmodes are remotely hard. Raiding close to tank-and-spank normal modes isn't exactly fun nor "a choice". It's like hitting a loot pinata, not even giving a reason for "casual" raiders to improve their gameplay and try hardmodes since the ilvl difference is extremely low.

No idea if "money took their brains"(lol) but they didn't work as hard on WoW as they did in BC.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The future of MMO's? Just look at how Blizzard implements things and you are right on target.

The good thing is : you can play WOW hardcore (highest difficulty in Raids, competition PvP and just wait till they introduce the BG's ratings again) and you can play WOW casual.

It just depends on you - the player - you choose. Choice.

But around 90% of WOW players are the guys who play for 2  hours a day.

WotlK made EVERYONE go to do Raids. (before that was a very small percentage). That in itself was a great achievement.

Patch 3.2 made EVERYONE go to do (heroic) dungeons.

Patch 3.3 will make everyone finding a group to do ALL dungeons while leveling up (thank you clustered dungeon servers).

CAT (or patch 4.0) will get EVERYONE in on the new Azeroth "destroyed" and this time WITH the new added features active players of WOW know (phasing , big rvr zone, real time destruction, mounted combat, sieges and dual specs).

--------------------------------

So the bottom line for WOW 2010 is .....playing 24/7....

You have 1 hour playing time: you hop in , do the LFG with tons of people to do a particular dungeon, you do it and still have time to help defend the rvr zone (if active) and do a BG.

A few minutes left? Do crafting or a solo quest to gain money.

You got 3 nights a week time for Raiding? No problem you can do that too... You want to have a prestigious PvP title in the BG's. No problem you can fight for 10 hours non stop each day to gain that title.

CHOICE is not casual.

Offering CHOICE means simply having 60%+ of the MMO market.

****IMPORTANT ****

Oh and BTW: to be succesful as a GROUP based  game mechanic you need to have a 80% success rate in doing group base stuff on YOUR level (meaning the level against your gear) AND to be assured you find enough people the next time to ... dare to play with throughout the stuff.

Video games always failed when you bumped into another level you couldn't possibly beat (you simply stopped playing).

So on average I think the Raids must have a "suces rate" of around 8 to 10 whipes or else the raid just stops.

Be it is easy mode or the optional hard mode (gear wise checked).

 Those are facts everyone knows alright, but keep on dreaming about stuff.

Blizzard delivers the above ... that's the difference.

And they do it IN STYLE

I wish people here could actually comprehend what is being said here^ because it is so very correct and very true...sadly the only logic in this thread will be drowed out by the constant hair pulling.

I was in a raid guild for about 6 months.  It was fun at first, but soon became a real grind.  I was putting my life on hold to do multiple raids in a week.  I won't ever do that again.  I play games to have fun, not to let it become work, which is exactly what a raiding guild is.

Blizzard knows that only about 5% of it's players are serious raiders, hence they throw them a bone or two once in a while, but the game is not geared towards them.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Then who should have cater too? The 2% hardcore audience that grow bored in 2 months because they breeze through any and all content and then unsubscribe? The FFA PVP crowd?

Sorry the game's base is casual, it will continue to be casual and WOW will do fine relying just on casual players.

And by the way, casual players are not always younger and vice versa. The most casual players are the 30 somethings like myself that have been in the market for years and do not have the 10-12 hours a day to play anymore because we have kids, homes, jobs, etc.... We are the real casual player and by no means a "younger player".

Agreed. I just don't think the 2% hardcore audience unsubscribed, because they are too addicted to wow for leaving, and they don't have nothing better to do.

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

Originally posted by Toquio3

you wanna keep a mmo always fresh and healthy? never raise the level cap, ever. do that and you will always have three times the content you would if you raised the cap and had to make higher level content.

Imagine a wow at level 60 right now. not only you would still have northrend instances and raids, but all TBC, all vanilla azeroth. the amount of content available would be amazing and all the continents would be flourishing. outland now lives up to the legend, its a barren, deserted, dead place and like azeroth, is now only a bus stop.

Mudflation, google this term, there are plenty of opinions on it. They would have done better to have implemented their new path of the titans character progression in vanilla rather increasing levels for subsequent expacks.

The next expansion looks like they are trying to meet some middle ground on that score, we all know that the real reason they went half way on levels though, plenty of milk in the cow yet $$$$$

Makes me wonder what they have in store for their top secret next gen mmo, maybe do away with level progression approach?

 Seven months ago when I started playing WOW I thought that WOW was a MMORPG with some raiding. I heard about raiding but I thought that raiding was just one of several things that you could do in WOW. How I was wrong.

Now I know better. WOW is a multiplayer online raiding game. Raids are the main and only purpose of the game. Leveling to 80 is just a tutorial or a nuisance. The huge beautiful world of WOW is just a bus stop for leveling. I suggest that they should remove the leveling. Every new player would start at level 80. They should remove the whole world outside the instances. You would log into a chatroom, group with some friends and then together you would go directly to an instance for raiding.

Let me tell how I'm playing WOW. I'm playing WOW from monday to friday about 3 hours every day, during the weekend about 6 hours every day. Now the list how I like playing WOW starting with the most fun things:

1. Exploring the huge and beautiful world of WOW. I like just riding through the world. I like exploring the small hidden valleys, exploring what's behind the hills. One of the most fun moments I had was when I found the hidden passage from Burning steps into the hidden valley above Nortshire Abbey.

2. Killing the monsters. I'm a warrior and I love fighting with a sword. For me fighting with ranged weapons is dull. I have my camera stationed just behind my character - almost first person view. The feel of fighting in WOW is great and also the monsters look fantastic. I'm fighting the monsters not because of the drop or XP but just for the fun of it. Several times I'm attacking some camps even If I don't have missions for it and even if I don't get any drop or XP.

3. Doing missions. I love doing missions. I agree that they could be much more interesting. I'm level 63 and I'm still doing missions at much lover levels if I find them, even If I get only 40 XP for them.

4. Studying the history and lore of WOW. I have read o lot about it and the lore is just amazing.

And yes I still didn't do any instance. I will soon start with the low level instances with the purpose of exploring them because the instances are very beautiful and they look fantastic.

And what kind of player am I? Casual or hardcore. I think that most WOW players will say that I'm a stupid player.

Originally posted by arctarus

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

agreed

Originally posted by zpassenger

Originally posted by arctarus

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

agreed

I completely agree.  When I was in college, I had time to raid 3 nights a week for multiple hours at a time.  Now that I have a job and am married, I still want to play, but I don't want to spend that many hours playing.  The new system is wonderful.  The only people that seem opposed to it are those that argue about "putting the time in" to get epics.  From the bitterness displayed here and elsewhere by these individuals, I have a feeling that this isn't the true issue to most of them, whethere or not they want/can admit it.  It seems more like an issue of wanting to stand out for their accomplishments (IE: epic gear).

Blizzard is doing a fine job integrating 10 man, 10 man heroic, 25 man, and 25 man heroic raids.  With this many options, the hardcore raiders will still be above the casual raiders, but now the casual raiders are within a stone's throw, which seems very upsetting to some!

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!

Originally posted by garrett

I dig their system. I have been having more fun in WoW lately than ever before. Because I don't have to log in for 4 hours a night. Some nights 1 hour, some 2 and on raid nights 4-5 ok. But the daily grind of every night play...have ended. Happy that it takes less time to do things, other MMOs should take a serious look at these changes. They are overall for the better. It allows hardcore and casual alike to enjoy the game.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by remixedcat

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

 

AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!

"its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality" - I think you are wrong, its more an indicative of I WANT TO HAVE FUN achieving it over I WANT TO GRIND FOR IT AND HOPE NOBODY GRINDS AS MUCH AS I DO. If I where you I would concentrate in "I WANT TO WORK FOR IT" in real life because that's the "sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession". If you are so worried with economy, I would like to tell you that having someone loosing time in a virtual world for more than 5 hours a day is really bad for economy, you will earn less and spend less, you will also wont have a family and  children that will help to pay the taxes that will cover your retirement :P

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.

BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.

I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.

Originally posted by Dyner

 If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise.

 

Do you REALLY want to judge your recreational activity by the same standard as your job? REALLY? Because that's the last thing I want to do.

Originally posted by Dyner

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.

 

BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.

I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.

I don't understand your logic whatsoever.  If you put in more work than a casual player, you WILL have better gear, unless, of course, you or your guild are bad and can't do the heroic/hardmode versions of raids.  No one is stopping you from getting better gear!  Have at the hardmodes all you want and profit from ~13-26 iLevels of gear difference!

Basically, the fact of the matter is this:

1.  Blizzard doesn't want to make content for 1-2% of the game community.  This is a bad business practice in almost any market.

2.  More people raiding = more people with goals (Both gear and acheivements) = more people continuing subscriptions.

3.  No one is taking anything away from you, so why do all of the "hardcores" have this resentment to others getting purples?

I Posted the reality in the first post, Yet look at all the candy land rationalizations.

MMO players are funny.

Just to give you "hardcore" veterans a little perspective...

You got to group through vanilla WoW, The Burning Crusade and WotLK. Your regular everyday playing of the game back then allowed you loads of opportunity to do group content and learn the ins and outs.

A player starting today will hardly ever have a chance to group as he levels up. The most he can hope for is being run through an instance. He simply won't have a chance to learn and hone  the "skills" you hardcore veterans are so proud of.

You've had years of practice, whereas a new 80 today has had NONE.

It's helpful for new players getting to 80 to have sort of "Intro to Grouping" instances that allow them to get some non-crappy gear so that they can start becoming assets, and to learn the techniques that will give them the skills and confidence to take on harder fights.

If end-game is only supposed to be fun for those of you who were fortunate enough to have always known grouping, then be prepared for WoW to start losing players.

Originally posted by Dyner

This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.

 

You example assumes that they causal is lazy.  A person that comes in with a new way of doing your job that is fast and better than you deserves more than you because you were too lazy to look for a new way of doing the same thing at your job.  So you deserve less than the faster more efficient person.  The innovater will get promoted and a raise faster than the "I Worked Hard of This" person.

Originally posted by gorillaz951

and quite frankly impossible to perfect way of keeping our eyeballs glued to the computer screen.

Very nice post! I understand your point and this can be put into many other games as well.
 

But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.

These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".

1) just ignore players making chuck norris jokes. Just one command and you will never hear from them again.

2) killstealing is a problem but not a big one. All the mobs in wow respawn fairly fast.

3) corpse camping? There is no corpse camping unless you go to teh opposite fraction city. It is impossible to corpse camp on a normal server. If you are on a Pvp server, you are asking for it and i have no sympathy.

4) If you allow anyone to spam you without banning them from your chat box, you deserve that spam.

An innovator is not a slacker, if you have any work experience you will know that. Your analogy is fundamentally wrong Horusa. It is not the casual player who is the innovator here, it is the MMO company which is being innovative. Effectively like your employer at work coming up with some innovations. The problem here is that these innovations favour the part time, casual player, so it is hardly surprising that those that put more effort into a game decry such ‘innovations’.

 For space saving purposes...

@NotNiceDino:

I judge my success. Who here can honestly say they enjoy the feeling of loosing or being "cheated out". I can further explain that by responding to #3 of the next poster..

@htiger23:

1)  I don't want Blizzard to either

2) I have no problem with this at all

3) This is where I have a problem. The gear you get (Tier Gear) looks exactly the same only with a slightly different color. It doesn't look any better for the effort the raid had to put forth in order to get it (ie finding an extra 15 players or coordination for hardmodes). If we're going to try something harder the gear should be better (and it's only marginally better in terms of iLvL) and should have "the look". But most of the gear is just reskins of other gear, or ends up being the template for the gear for the next raid instance to come out.

We should be able to [at a glance] see who does hardmodes and who doesn't. And it will NEVER matter you will always have people who will use anything they can find to make " Me > You ".  And you shouldn't concern yourself with people like that (though I bet it sounds like I'm one of those :(  ).

@Horusra:

Most divide the player base into two types: Hardcore and Casual. I divide into three: Hardcore, Casual, and Lazy. And I don't think anyone will every like the Lazies (except for other Lazies). You want to play Hardcore? Fine with me. You want to play Casual? Fine with me. You want to play Lazy? Fine, but don't expect free handouts; because it will never be 'easy' enough for your type...even if they mailed you epics, you'd still complain how you have to find a mailbox and then click on the mail.

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All in all, I don't think Blizzard has found the 'sweet spot' for raiding. Naxx was a faceroll in greens and blues. Ulduar was....well...Ulduar. And ToC(10/25) is definitely getting there. Hopefully Icecrown will it.