Wow that was a depressing read, if you read the "roadmap" they almost sound like this is the end of the line, no?

Originally posted by Player_420

Wow that was a depressing read, if you read the "roadmap" they almost sound like this is the end of the line, no?

I don't know, the fact that SOE rescued the game in the first place says that they have an interest in making it work.

They don't take the risk they need with the title in order to make it work. They needed to funnel money & a team into the game when they acquired it to bring it where it needed to be in order to be successful. I feel like they turned it around with their small team, but they hindered it at the same time by not taking the risk. They bought an in-development title that was not even near completion, and they should have treated it as such when they got it.  Ontop of all of that they don't market their game at all. It just sort of exists.

Why they don't make the PVP server like EQ2's rule set I do not understand.  I loved Vanguard so much, but the FFA killed it for me.  At least put level ranges, teams aren't necessary.

nah..they bought it cause, at the time, it was considered an eq2 killer.  they won't do anything with this awesome game now.

IMO they bought it so they could own the IP and make sure it wasnt going to be sold elsewhere to compete with EQ2, and to try and make a bit of the money they invested back.

Quite depressive. But not a surprise. VG will IMVPO never recover anyways, even if SOE would do some major investment. That chance has passed long ago, but its a shame nontheless.

To make this work, SOE would have to do some advertising, which they don't even do for their EQ Titles as it should have been. Vanguard will simply be forgotten some day which is a shame.

This game died on the table when Microsoft dropped it in 06. After that, they sold the distributing rights to SOE, launched early to avoid it becoming vaporware, and then had to sell the whole show to SOE when Sigil went belly up. Its a shame, as it was a game with potential, but after the launch they had there just wasn't the population in the massive world they made to support a group-centric game like this. New players came on board, wandered around, did some soloing and crafting, then they generally leave. No matter what anyone does now this game is toast.

Brad McQuaid should have done less interveiws and more work on this title. I blame him and Sigil for what happened here, SOE picked it up for a song and then set about fixing some bugs and generally maintaining the game as it is. Safe investment for them, easy money. To say they bought it to avoid it killing EQ2 is nonsense, no one wanted Vanguard in the shape it was in when Sigil went under. It couldn't compete with a facebook app at that point.

I would have liked to see it get some dev love, but I think its just going to stagnant. I just don't think this game will ever get the population to make any company want to put extra monies into it. Now its getting dated and there is a lot more competition for the gamer's $$.

I have played Vanguard and I don't see how it is better then EQ2. They are different games anyhow. I enjoy EQ2 much more then Vanguard. Vanguard was very hard for me to figure out when I first played  it which was my first frustration although I am not a hardcore gamer so maybe it was above my head. It was very buggy at first also which made me not stick around and I had a very good PC system at the time and still do. I kept my SOE $30 subscription for a while just so I can see if they fixed the game but now it has been so long that I really have little interest in playing the game. Just no population anymore. The thing that I think kills MMOs is not enough casual friendly content. Everything has to be END GANE END GAME. I make pretty good money and have a secure job at the moment but do people really have lives that are all about END GAME all the time? Sorry guys. You have to be rich and have all the time in the world, a loser and do nothing else in life or steal time at the job playing these games on company computers. It is you guys the devs keep trying to please which kills games. And don't tell me about games I've played enough. Making the casual gamers happy also will help save games. I think we are the bigger populous. Happy Holidays.

Very disappointing, I still play it and I still believe it's the best game around.  It's certainly the only game that pulls me back time and time again.  I think pouring money into advancements and into marketing would certainly make a difference but whether or not it would make a big enough difference is impossible to say.  I hope the game continues anyway and that more people come back to it.  A server merge indicates that things are getting worse but I see more people playing all the time.

Originally posted by Zapphod

Originally posted by Player_420

Wow that was a depressing read, if you read the "roadmap" they almost sound like this is the end of the line, no?

 

I don't know, the fact that SOE rescued the game in the first place says that they have an interest in making it work.

 

I wonder how many MXO players said the same thing......

I have to agree with others on this, they (SOE) never intended to kill EQ2 with this one, though it is superior in every way.  What a shame to waste this gem of a game.  In my opinion this is the best PVE game out now.  What a sad turn of events.... 

I have to say that after the SWG turn of events i was one that would say "get over it" evern though i played through it all.  After this i think im totally done with them however.  I just dont know how they can manage to ef up everything they touch like this.  I know they rescued this game from Sigil but then they just molested it from there.

I think SOE needs to look at the free to play option. I really feel that it may have saved Matrix Online and would do wonders for SWG.  Watch and see if AoC and warhammer don't jump on board with f2p  in 2010.

Ive played vanguard since launch and have followed the game before launch  and after seeing bout everything there is as far as game play and player styles ect , i can honestly say this  is the very best thing thats ever to happen to vanguard  since launch  no pressure no dilema just go back sqaure one fix the "BUGS"  meaning in vanguard  the word bug has a very wide interpetation.

they have tried every angle every method to proceed tried to full fill every playstyle wim n whimper with  resources dwindling the economy way it is it wasnt going anywhere fast, and yet it was slowing down to a crawl. so this is great news to the game i seemed to have developed a  a love- hate relationship with. i'm re activating my sub for for soe game pass because i wanna be part of this  ive talked the talked in the pass good or bad but now its time step up to the plate and walk the walk .

man this is great news its like someone opened the door and whole lot of fresh cool air came gushing in

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by Zapphod

Originally posted by Player_420

Wow that was a depressing read, if you read the "roadmap" they almost sound like this is the end of the line, no?

 

I don't know, the fact that SOE rescued the game in the first place says that they have an interest in making it work.

 

 

I wonder how many MXO players said the same thing......

I wonder how many MXO players realise that without the SOE life support system, that crapfest would have piled in long before they finally pulled the plug. When MXO went dead, it had something like 2k active subs. I don't think SOE had a interest in making MXO work, and I think vanguard is a a point where they are investing less and less to keep it rolling. Thats life, once the subs<the cost of moving foward=dead game.
 

Vanguard, RIP.

What more needs to be said?  A game with such potential essentially died on the vine due to lack of developement and a lead dev with his head so firmly implanted in his tukkus that he had no idea how the game might be improved.

The old guard who stuck with the game after release has nearly all disapeared, and sure, there is a new generation of fanboi supporting Vanguard, but it's incomplete as a game and, thanks to SOE's lack of vision (not THE Vision), one of the biggest failures ever released.

Vanguard probably had the most potential of any game released in the last 2-3 years (it's late, I'm not doin' math) and I'm sure there will be those that post "what an awesome game it is" but really, after leaving the game 6 months or so ago, it remains what it is: the best example of unrealized potential, of unsupported development, of truly horrible support from an understaffed, unqualified development team that has ever been allowed to remain "live."

Let it die already SOE, it's existence is a mockery of both what it could have been, and of EQ2, its original competitor in the genre.

Vanguard really reminds me of folks that keep a dog around long after it should have been put down–   lame, half-blind, and a creature that, while deserving of sympathy, should just be put out of its misery.

So with the above features out, what is the team going to be working on in 2010?

Their resumes, apparently

Originally posted by bigsmiff

I think SOE needs to look at the free to play option. I really feel that it may have saved Matrix Online and would do wonders for SWG.  Watch and see if AoC and warhammer don't jump on board with f2p  in 2010.

To be honest I am hoping more companies are looking at offering a lifetime deal like Turbine does with LoTRO.

Originally posted by hayes303

This game died on the table when Microsoft dropped it in 06.

Pretty much how I feel about it. Up until that point this game was going to be the game for me. The game I would be subscribed to for 10+ years. Then Microsoft bailed and SOE stepped in. That was the beginning of the end for me, and no doubt countless others. I remember a thread on their forums before they canned them after this happened where some VP from SOE I think, may have been Sigil, was on the boards argung how much of a good thing it was to have SOE stepping in. I was arguing for a promise in stone that the likes of what happened with SWG and the NGE wouldn't happen and why should I take your word for it.

Looking back at that moment I bet he knew at that point that this game wasn't going to be anywhere close to the commercial success it should have been. I bet he knew that slapping that SOE tag on it would prevent tons of folks from ever trying the game, much less sticking with it long term.

Sure, some folks like VG. That's fine. I just wonder how it would have done if it didn't have the SOE stigma attached to it.

 Looks like the beginning of the end for VG, the community won't grow now,  the community is now left with a skeleton crew dev team to push out medicore fex x, kill x craft x, and talk to x content to them each month.

Some rich MMO fan should buy the rights to this game from SoE and give it a relaunch and full support it deserves. I know I would if I had the money.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by hayes303

This game died on the table when Microsoft dropped it in 06.

 

Pretty much how I feel about it. Up until that point this game was going to be the game for me. The game I would be subscribed to for 10+ years. Then Microsoft bailed and SOE stepped in. That was the beginning of the end for me, and no doubt countless others.

Amen.

I was in the beta from early in Phase 2, when it was still under Microsoft, and I thought it was a brilliant game. The EVE Online of fantasy. Under SOE, Sigil canned most of the features that made it great to me by Phase 3 and it seemed like the design philosophy did a 180°, or leastwise a 90°.

I'd rather it have died before release than release as it did, because not only did it turn out to be a very different game than it was in the early beta, but it also erroneously ruined the reputations of everyone who had poured their lives into it up to that point to make it something very different and highly needed.

Oh just kill it already SOE. 

Without SOE this game would have been long gone. Thats for sure.

And I can understand that soe don't want to pour to many money into a game that will newer fully recover.

What we can hope is that SOE will use the awsome engine vanguard is build in, can be put to good use in some other game in the future.

What I really loved about vanguard was the really really huge world with so many things to do. I would love to see a sandbox game in this world, with a rule system ala the old precu SWG. That would be awsome.

And the few times I went back to vanguard I loved it. The problem is.. there is no others to play with. And it saddens me that the only pvp there is, is ffa. I liked it when it was 3 factions. That was awsome.

Originally posted by Lydon

Oh just kill it already SOE. 

My thoughts.

I've been a great fan of VG before release, the game on paper had it all.
But what killed the game was the high system requirement, it was unplayable.

Now that technology caught up I tried the game again, but I cannot get into it.
It's just missing the Xfactor.

 Does anyone else remember the old harvesting system in phase 2? It was so unique, you actually had different attacks that you could do to mine or chop down a tree. It made harvesting into a real sort of mini-game. Then I remember one day logging in and seeing the yellow bar go across the screen, and i Think "WHAT?!!!" Why would you dumb down a game at the end? Its not like harvesting had a ton of problems, or at least I never saw any.

Or, anyone remember the old Dwarf starting zone? It was that crazy ass valley, and you had to like work your way up to that main kingdom area? That was some of the toughest fights ive ever had in an MMO. Me and a friend I made in game grouped up and adventured all the way to the main kingdom, we ended up bonding really well, and had some epic times. Then he left shortly after launch because of how much everything had changed, including that dwarf starting zone.

But unlike everyone else who puts blame on SOE, sorry it was 100% Sigils fault and Brad Mcquaid. You can read the countless reports and even see how he tucked his tail and ran when it things got bad at the end, and it all points to them.

I followed this game with anticipation for more than a year before it launched, and I beta tested it. While the game had many problems, one of the biggest in my opinion is that Brad McQuaid catered to a subset of the mmo market that wanted the game to be enjoyable only by the hardest core player. For years, every 5 minutes there was a post and an ensuing debate on the game's boards on how the game would just be another easy WoW clone unless [fill in some draconian feature that all but the hardest core player would hate]. Brad encouraged that and even went so far as to say, in substance, "many people will not enjoy Vanguard" and "the game is not for everyone," etc. He just kept throwing slab after slab of red meat to the "we want a very, very, very hard game that casual players will despise" constituency.

I said at the time (and took enormous crap for it) that while there is nothing wrong with hard core players (and having content that they enjoy), hard core players won't be enough to fill the servers. Also, once those hard core players consume the content, which they will very quickly, they will leave and move on to new challenges.  A game needs "medium core" players and casual players, and as many other types of players it can get, to pay the bills for the whole game and ensure the company can keep adding content. Likewise, a hard core player needs to feel like they have achieved something in game that not everyone has, and how can that ever be if all the other players are hard core players just like them?

Brad ignored that warning and kept encouraging the game's reputation for being a hard core player's only club, until the game got closer to launch. Then he belatedly realized that in fact, he did need a larger player base for the game to be a financial success. So what did he do? He started telling everyone how much casual players would enjoy the game and how much content he had in it for them. That was not true and I said so at the time. (Took a lot of grief for that too lol).

So, the game launched to poor numbers, as I predicted, which have become more poor with every passing day, as I also predicted. Every single bit of the responsibility for that rests on Brad's shoulders. I see that he has a blog where he does a post mortum of why Vanguard failed, and he still doesn't get it. He still can't see that there is no reason whatsoever that a game designer can't make a game that appeals to, and is enjoyed by, a wide range of playstyles.

Original Everquest was my first mmo. I was a casual player, and I loved it. Hard core players loved it too, and what they were doing didn't get in my way and I didn't get in theirs. We all had a good time. Some of the most fun content in the game was at lower levels. Brad forgot that (if he ever knew, because I am convinced now that EQ succeeded through the efforts of  less credited contributors), which is why he made a lousy game and did an even more lousy job of promoting it. 

Out of all the MMOs ever produced, the failure of this one (especially during initial release) probably makes me the saddest. I obsessively played this game when it was first released. By the time I got my Goblin to 50, I was so disgusted with the antics of Brad, the shut down of Sigil and take-over by $OE that I deleted my character and I've never looked back. I had a love affair with this game and to see how it was handled after release was hard. I knew $OE wouldn't develop this game much after release. The whole island trial thing was a big farce. Why create more newbie areas when the world of Telon was already littered with many places for new players to start? Why not just retool what was already there? I'm glad to see I was right and all that wasted development time on a trial island proved to be unsuccessful.

Vanguard, even in its state at release, was probably the best MMO I've ever played. There was nothing hardcore about it. It was just like WoW except in a bigger, beautiful and more open-ended world. I just hope developers have now learned their lesson. Do not create a game with such high graphic requirements. Especially if you depend on monthly membership fees. As much as I loved VG, I struggled playing it with its chunking and frame rate issues. What killed this game even before the Brad/Sigil/$OE debacle was it's steep hardware requirements. It never recovered from this issue and a horrible game launch.

Ah well. VG will eventually die and it will be missed. One of the best guilds I've ever been a part of was in that game. Hail to Forge of Chaos! I still remember the good times!!!!

This is sad news for me also. To me this was THE best sandbox game I've ever had the pleasure of playing. Like so many others I played at the start, but then left because of all the technical issues. I returned after SOE had bought it, and had a tremendous time playing it. The immersion factor of this game was amazing.

 IMHO the fault lies with Brad and Sigil. While it may be true that SOE bought the game because of its own personal, and perhaphs selfish reasons, Brad and Sigil failed us in putting out a half done game with bugs and miminal content at endgame. In all good conscious I cannot put the blame on SOE. The action they took allowed many of us to enjoy the game for much longer than I would have anticpated.

Once this game goes black, I don't know if we will ever see another of its kind. Semi-sandbox games like WoW and LOTRO are fine and good, throw in FE if you like, but for that TRUE sandbox lover (fantasy setting) out there I feel it will be a long time before we have that similiar feel that we all felt in VSOH.

-M

Had to write a blog about this, give it a read here.

Enjoy and have a very merry Christmas!

nothing left but the crying.  :(

RIP VG.

I played vangaurd durrign beta, I was expecting it to take the place of SWG in my life.  I even got 2 coppies of the game pre ordred for me and the wife.   We lasted all of 3 months before giving up.

IT is sad to see this game go, the crafting system was great, other parts of the game had real promise.  Only to be nerfed into oblivion.  Now more server merges are comming they only have 4 So I guess they are going to one or two.

They should go ahead and shut this this game down and let it go ahead and die, as its has been in the slow process for the past year or so.

Sigil failed for the first 5 years and Soe failed for the next 3 years.  No one is above responsibility for the failure that vanguard is.  At least microsoft had the good sense to get out of the project, because they recognized that the team making the game could not recover it.

For those that hoped for vanguard to rebound (I did as well), that would have stole subscribers from eq2 and soe wasn't about to split the population of its only viable game on the off chance that vanguard might somehow rebound.  Vanguard was dead the moment soe purchased it. 

Originally posted by Amathe

I followed this game with anticipation for more than a year before it launched, and I beta tested it. While the game had many problems, one of the biggest in my opinion is that Brad McQuaid catered to a subset of the mmo market that wanted the game to be enjoyable only by the hardest core player. For years, every 5 minutes there was a post and an ensuing debate on the game's boards on how the game would just be another easy WoW clone unless [fill in some draconian feature that all but the hardest core player would hate]. Brad encouraged that and even went so far as to say, in substance, "many people will not enjoy Vanguard" and "the game is not for everyone," etc. He just kept throwing slab after slab of red meat to the "we want a very, very, very hard game that casual players will despise" constituency.

I said at the time (and took enormous crap for it) that while there is nothing wrong with hard core players (and having content that they enjoy), hard core players won't be enough to fill the servers. Also, once those hard core players consume the content, which they will very quickly, they will leave and move on to new challenges.  A game needs "medium core" players and casual players, and as many other types of players it can get, to pay the bills for the whole game and ensure the company can keep adding content. Likewise, a hard core player needs to feel like they have achieved something in game that not everyone has, and how can that ever be if all the other players are hard core players just like them?

Brad ignored that warning and kept encouraging the game's reputation for being a hard core player's only club, until the game got closer to launch. Then he belatedly realized that in fact, he did need a larger player base for the game to be a financial success. So what did he do? He started telling everyone how much casual players would enjoy the game and how much content he had in it for them. That was not true and I said so at the time. (Took a lot of grief for that too lol).

So, the game launched to poor numbers, as I predicted, which have become more poor with every passing day, as I also predicted. Every single bit of the responsibility for that rests on Brad's shoulders. I see that he has a blog where he does a post mortum of why Vanguard failed, and he still doesn't get it. He still can't see that there is no reason whatsoever that a game designer can't make a game that appeals to, and is enjoyed by, a wide range of playstyles.

Original Everquest was my first mmo. I was a casual player, and I loved it. Hard core players loved it too, and what they were doing didn't get in my way and I didn't get in theirs. We all had a good time. Some of the most fun content in the game was at lower levels. Brad forgot that (if he ever knew, because I am convinced now that EQ succeeded through the efforts of  less credited contributors), which is why he made a lousy game and did an even more lousy job of promoting it. 

Well said. I recall reading from one of the developers who did the actual programming I heard many had never made a MMO before and so they had no idea about how to make a MMO function. Of course the hardcore approach doomed VG to fail. You just can't build a MMO only on such a niche target audience who will rush through the game anyway. I never understood why SOE bought VG in the first place. It wasnt totally bad, but really it didnt have a chance unless someone would make a mayor investment into the game, which SOE didnt. But it still is one of the most sad failed games in MMO history IMO. It had many lovable characteristics.

One of the major issues as I see it was. Vanguard was released at a time when forced grouping already was SO out of fashion and the trend which is clear now, was already visible. Most MMO gamers today have no tolerance to large downtimes. I mean, it took sometimes up to 45 minutes to just travel the world to meet your group! Such things were possible in the EQ1 days, but when VG was released those days were LONG over and enough people said so. But as ever so often, they did no listen.

Other stuff like when you die in the depth of one of the deadly dungeons (I just say Kragnors End!) and then you lose ALL progress was such a big no-go at that time already. Anything halfway interesting like housing or ships or flying mounts were and are way too hard to get for any casual player. In the end VG was a way to elitarian game in a time where this design was already a dinosaur. I know I was bashed endlessly back when I was in beta, and most ex fans are still in denial and prolly will always be. But to everyone else it is clear as the day that such an elite concept could never work in our days.

Today most MMO gamers make very little compromises when it comes to grouping, penalities, long travels, downtimes asf., a development whose logical steps the great soloability of games like LOTRO and the NPC companion in a game like SWTOR is. The signs that this was the future was clear as the day back then already, but fanbois and Sigil leaders did not want to see it.

Well Brad, if you're reading this thread I'll never forget how you called me out back when you were beta testing VG and said that no one would get a free ride to play your game.

I think you (faultily) assumed that I, and others asking for a chance, just wanted to preview your game. What I remember saying is that I wanted to test out your game, and I meant that literally.

I will never forget Brad Mcquaid's messages on the beta boards. I had some fun in VG after Sony had it for a while, but the forced grouping was too much for someone like me who doesn't always have a group to roll with.

I read that Mcquaid is interested in developing another mmo. Sadly, I think he never learned his lesson from VG. In modern gaming, gamers have long memories and are very unforgiving. Good luck getting another chance.

At VG players: I can see why you love the game, and I'm sorry for you that SOE is phasing it out without actually manning up and admitting they're phasing it out. Rest assured if it stays in the black with a skeleton crew running it it'll stick around for at least the next year.

-Cym

wow after all these years that same oh water cooler Gossip bout what went on behind the scenes at sigil  blah blah blah !! which is bout 99.9% BS  anyways comes rising to the surface on the forums at the most lucritive moments.

but yet vanguard has had an open test server on all there so called failed content and none of these " in the know experts ever showed up  to show there expertise  but yet here we are  at the water cooler  again with the latest three old news gossip and rumor,  there not closing vangaurd there taking a step back and start working on the part of the game that brings in the money and thats not end game content its lvl 1 to 45 content.

  I dont think its the fact they shelved some end game content they were planning on putting out   thats got some people so worked up i think its the fact they got the nerve to step back and tackle all the bugs that were  being used as a free ride.

would like to see them divide the currency in two parts at lvl 50 if a player wants to charge 30 plat for a leather bag then let the  lvl 50 player that wants to buy it but it will cost 50 blue plat  or 500 blue gold coins ect that can only be had at lvl 50  somthing like that would help the new player sit back relax enjoy what vanguard has to offer 

Originally posted by yogimaster

wow after all these years that same oh water cooler Gossip bout what went on behind the scenes at sigil  blah blah blah !! which is bout 99.9% BS  anyways comes rising to the surface on the forums at the most lucritive moments.

but yet vanguard has had an open test server on all there so called failed content and none of these " in the know experts ever showed up  to show there expertise  but yet here we are  at the water cooler  again with the latest three old news gossip and rumor,  there not closing vangaurd there taking a step back and start working on the part of the game that brings in the money and thats not end game content its lvl 1 to 45 content.

  I dont think its the fact they shelved some end game content they were planning on putting out   thats got some people so worked up i think its the fact they got the nerve to step back and tackle all the bugs that were  being used as a free ride.

would like to see them divide the currency in two parts at lvl 50 if a player wants to charge 30 plat for a leather bag then let the  lvl 50 player that wants to buy it but it will cost 50 blue plat  or 500 blue gold coins ect that can only be had at lvl 50  somthing like that would help the new player sit back relax enjoy what vanguard has to offer 

The game changed a lot.  It's stable and runs decently now.  The world is still huge but travel is much easier.  It still has many hard-core types of effects in it that many newer types don't like (corpse runs, etc...) but it's a good, solid game.

I played it a bit earlier this year but I"m an old-school EQ person too.  I clearly remember EQ and the changes that happened as they added in AA's.  Seeing that on the list of changes for the near future -- I decided to look elsewhere and moved on.

Many senior players look at AA's as a good thing.  I see them as I saw them in EQ -- over 900 AA's on my enchanter when I quit.  AA's became the "new levels" where the guilds required max level and xx number of AA's with these specific AA's mandated to join.  Looking at AA's being added to the game, I figured I'd get to the top levels just in time for AA requirements to push a few extra weeks on me and then it's grind the AA's when not raiding -- gotta keep up on 'em or the next new batch...  Thanks but no thanks.

At least VG doesn't have the keying crap that EQ had where every couple of months or so you run another set through old content so you could bring new folks along on the "real" runs.  Few keys required in VG so replacements aren't the nightmare they became in EQ but the AA's...  That'll bite them in the long run as they have to design content to counter the AA skills so those AA skills shift from "nice to have" over to the "mandatory to do" category.

Still... for casual types looking for an "ultimate" PvE type of world/experience.  It's an awesome game.  For PvP -- I'd say don't even bother trying it in VG.  It's not balanced at all for those activities and never really was.

Oh they are adding it? my bad.

there nonthing to put AA"s to.... really there's not its a train wreck waiting to happen if they would of stayed on course vangaurd would be back to the kill thousands rats  then kill a thousand gnolls ect ect  . at least this way there gonna get things done and done right  instead of spending months on makeing new content that gets burnt down in a week.

there not Deleting AA's or anything else there just putting some stuff on the shelf till they get a better player base and broading the aspect of the game gonna have to be done.

vanguard not like eq2 or eq1 far from it   just there gonna ween raiders a little bit teach them to stand on there own and start putting more resources into vanguard saga of heros and little less  in to saga of raiders n beyond"

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Amathe

I followed this game with anticipation for more than a year before it launched, and I beta tested it. While the game had many problems, one of the biggest in my opinion is that Brad McQuaid catered to a subset of the mmo market that wanted the game to be enjoyable only by the hardest core player. For years, every 5 minutes there was a post and an ensuing debate on the game's boards on how the game would just be another easy WoW clone unless [fill in some draconian feature that all but the hardest core player would hate]. Brad encouraged that and even went so far as to say, in substance, "many people will not enjoy Vanguard" and "the game is not for everyone," etc. He just kept throwing slab after slab of red meat to the "we want a very, very, very hard game that casual players will despise" constituency.

I said at the time (and took enormous crap for it) that while there is nothing wrong with hard core players (and having content that they enjoy), hard core players won't be enough to fill the servers. Also, once those hard core players consume the content, which they will very quickly, they will leave and move on to new challenges.  A game needs "medium core" players and casual players, and as many other types of players it can get, to pay the bills for the whole game and ensure the company can keep adding content. Likewise, a hard core player needs to feel like they have achieved something in game that not everyone has, and how can that ever be if all the other players are hard core players just like them?

Brad ignored that warning and kept encouraging the game's reputation for being a hard core player's only club, until the game got closer to launch. Then he belatedly realized that in fact, he did need a larger player base for the game to be a financial success. So what did he do? He started telling everyone how much casual players would enjoy the game and how much content he had in it for them. That was not true and I said so at the time. (Took a lot of grief for that too lol).

So, the game launched to poor numbers, as I predicted, which have become more poor with every passing day, as I also predicted. Every single bit of the responsibility for that rests on Brad's shoulders. I see that he has a blog where he does a post mortum of why Vanguard failed, and he still doesn't get it. He still can't see that there is no reason whatsoever that a game designer can't make a game that appeals to, and is enjoyed by, a wide range of playstyles.

Original Everquest was my first mmo. I was a casual player, and I loved it. Hard core players loved it too, and what they were doing didn't get in my way and I didn't get in theirs. We all had a good time. Some of the most fun content in the game was at lower levels. Brad forgot that (if he ever knew, because I am convinced now that EQ succeeded through the efforts of  less credited contributors), which is why he made a lousy game and did an even more lousy job of promoting it. 

 

Well said. I recall reading from one of the developers who did the actual programming I heard many had never made a MMO before and so they had no idea about how to make a MMO function. Of course the hardcore approach doomed VG to fail. You just can't build a MMO only on such a niche target audience who will rush through the game anyway. I never understood why SOE bought VG in the first place. It wasnt totally bad, but really it didnt have a chance unless someone would make a mayor investment into the game, which SOE didnt. But it still is one of the most sad failed games in MMO history IMO. It had many lovable characteristics.

One of the major issues as I see it was. Vanguard was released at a time when forced grouping already was SO out of fashion and the trend which is clear now, was already visible. Most MMO gamers today have no tolerance to large downtimes. I mean, it took sometimes up to 45 minutes to just travel the world to meet your group! Such things were possible in the EQ1 days, but when VG was released those days were LONG over and enough people said so. But as ever so often, they did no listen.

Other stuff like when you die in the depth of one of the deadly dungeons (I just say Kragnors End!) and then you lose ALL progress was such a big no-go at that time already. Anything halfway interesting like housing or ships or flying mounts were and are way too hard to get for any casual player. In the end VG was a way to elitarian game in a time where this design was already a dinosaur. I know I was bashed endlessly back when I was in beta, and most ex fans are still in denial and prolly will always be. But to everyone else it is clear as the day that such an elite concept could never work in our days.

Today most MMO gamers make very little compromises when it comes to grouping, penalities, long travels, downtimes asf., a development whose logical steps the great soloability of games like LOTRO and the NPC companion in a game like SWTOR is. The signs that this was the future was clear as the day back then already, but fanbois and Sigil leaders did not want to see it.

As much as I love Vanguard this is exactly how I feel as well! Well said both of you.
 

 Vanguard is one of the most annoying MMOs I ever tried, with a following of equally annoying, anti-every-other-MMO fans.  I'm amused to see it dying on the vine, but glad that a good chunk of the hard core purist gamers are playing there - and not where I am.

This is what happens when you let "hardcore" gamers get their way.

From the original Beta I have said that this game would fail because it does not appeal to the masses, but death penalties and a lack of "wow"ness coupled with an insistence to make this something for the hard-core gamers to wave their e-penises to has resulted in low subscriptions.

Stop listening to the hard core raider types, and listen to the masses, and this game could yet become popular, although frankly it is probably too late.

I have personally said as far back as i can remember that hardcore gamers are the worst to develop for. They burn through content quicker than it can be made and then whine about how the game sucks and move on, leaving garbage in their wakes.

A game should be developed for the majority and to ensure a long game life.

Brad was just a coke head and should have been tossed in prison for fraud. He outright commited fraud to all of his investors. The tool should be in prison.

Originally posted by Zapphod

Originally posted by Player_420

Wow that was a depressing read, if you read the "roadmap" they almost sound like this is the end of the line, no?

 

I don't know, the fact that SOE rescued the game in the first place says that they have an interest in making it work.

 

If SOE was really interested in making Vanguard work, they wouldn't keep cutting staff and funding.  At this point its painfully obvious they are just using it to pad their station pass count of games.  Its too bad, Vanguard itself is a good game, and with the proper support, could have made quite a bit of money for who ever was willing to invest.  This death by a thousand cuts is all to typical of SOE's mentality.

Are the MMORPG communty's memories REALLY that short??   All this reminiscing about how great this game could have been?? 

This game was doomed from the start.   Lots of hype and talk about cool hardcore mechanics but there was NO actual ability to back up their grandiose claims.   And people kept swallowing the hype even when there was no proof to back it up.  (But that's typical for the MMORPG community)

http://f13.net/index.php?itemid=561#more

The game failed only partly because of idiots like McQuaid for managers but also because of poor design decisions and lack of anything resembling a professional design process.   Some of my favorite quotes from that interview:

f13.net: How was QA treated through the course of development?

Ex-Sigil: QA?

f13.net: QA.

Ex-Sigil: QA was one person up until about November... ONE.

f13.net: What.

Ex-Sigil: 100% serious.

================

f13.net: Would you say, honestly, that they (the pinheaded managers) are directly responsible for the unfortunate conclusion?

Ex-Sigil: A part of it. You can't leave out the insane hype machine, the process failures, and the poor design decision making at the very highest levels.

This is a sorry end to a year of MMORPGs that is once again memorable for its failures.   Lets see if developers learn anything from them. 

SOE, no suprise, put the game on cruise control, try to squeeze a little more profit, would not be surpised to see the game go dark in 2011, just another reason I don't play SOE games any longer.. they suck the big one.. :)

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Lydon

Oh just kill it already SOE. 

 

My thoughts.

I've been a great fan of VG before release, the game on paper had it all.
But what killed the game was the high system requirement, it was unplayable.

Now that technology caught up I tried the game again, but I cannot get into it.
It's just missing the Xfactor.

Its graphics might be the biggest problem. There is a huge "uncanny valley" going on. The graphics pretend to be "realistic" especially compared to WoW's clear cartoon graphics, but they are completely wrong.
 

An example is a large port city, it is HUGE but empty, to empty for such a large port and there is no activity. And if you look closer, the architecture makes no sense. Ramps are made out of planks several times the size of a human being with nails the size of a leg. Did anyone at Sigil ever hear about the word "scale"?

The entire world, the look and feel of it never felt right for me. It felt like those cheap games were an amateur has slapped a few models together he found for free. 

And the same really went for much of the game, it all felt disconnected. A lot of ideas put together but never actually refined into a single game.

SOE has rightfully gotten a reputation for half-assed games and I see them going the direction of Sierra. Once THE game producer, now just a joke of a name synonymous with trash products trying to squeeze the last bit of money out of the name.

Maybe that is a bit harsh but with EQ and the original SWG, the company has since fallen on hard time, once they owned the industry, now they still got the most titles but none of the big succeses. Blizzard, Turbine and NCSoft all got bigger titles. Even Funcom had better (initial) sales with Age of Conan. The mighty have fallen far.

Originally posted by sfc1971 

SOE has rightfully gotten a reputation for half-assed games and I see them going the direction of Sierra. Once THE game producer, now just a joke of a name synonymous with trash products trying to squeeze the last bit of money out of the name.

Maybe that is a bit harsh but with EQ and the original SWG, the company has since fallen on hard time, once they owned the industry, now they still got the most titles but none of the big succeses. Blizzard, Turbine and NCSoft all got bigger titles. Even Funcom had better (initial) sales with Age of Conan. The mighty have fallen far.

 

 

This right here might be the biggest unspoken truth about the game overall.

Realistically, soe purchased Everquest from verrant and since then has struggled to find success.  Every single title they have touched has been a failure to one degree or another.

Soe as a company has losts its way.  They no longer understand what players want and even if they did, they do not know how to deliver it.  The design process seems to be driven by accountants and the implementation of those changes seems to be decided upon by throwing darts at a board.  Make a huge change, target a different player demographic, reverse course and target a different demographic, change design course right in the middle of the previous course change, etc.

There is so little consistency in the company other than the fact that they will be inconsistent in their design course.  Soe has such huge asperations for success, because they were there once, but they have no earthly idea how to achieve it. 

I should add that i hope the best for Vanguard. Though i don't play it or any other SoE game anymore, i hope the game manages to survive and find new life for the players that still love it.

Flaws aside, it has a neat game world, neat lore and a concept that can still work.

I stand pat on my opinion that Bard McQuaid should be banned for life from touching another mmo.

Maybe they can rescue the game for the fans and draw in new ones by going to a F2P model. it helped DDO although im not sure how much. Just a though.

(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Raving Rabbid is crying his eyes out as his #1 dance Student Micheal jackson has passed away months ago and he hasnt gotten over it.)

As much as I hate to say it; I told you so.

I got flamed to high heaven when I spoke out about how SOE was mishandling the game as I left and warned that mos of the promised content (AA's, Stiirhad, Nexus) would probably be shelved and it seems it has.

I hate to see them do this to this game (it could have been great) but its more-or-less been mishandled so that it doesn't compete with the EQ franchise if they decide to make an EQ 3.

I wonder how many people are going to stay now that theyve basically said they are setting their speed to crawl and merging down to 1 regular and 1 EU server.

It's basicaly going the way of SWG and will stay up but unfixed for years and years until people stop paying to be in limbo...

Again I'm sorry to all hit hard by this news;

This is why I left a few months ago...

I tried Vanguard back in open beta.

I cancelled my pre-order because it clearly wasn't ready for release, but always hoped it would sort itself out because it had some really good concepts in the game design.

And while I've been tempted to try it again, SOE nonchalantly dropping item malls into their subscription games without warning gives me pause.

well vangaurd been in this  rut for a long while now many many things have been thought of and tried  some good others not so good like  IOD is an excellent idea  but the shock  factor when u go on the live server after u subbed to the game is to much there no population  at all .

think one of the thing's that hurt vanguard was not selling the new content as an expansion packs for sale. I know when they said they didnt want to ect i was like sweet deal !!, but now after the fact one has to wonder if they did do that in first place maybe that would of been a good indecator of if  end game  is where the money at or not , if not enough players are buying the expansion pack then why waste resources on making new content  let alone for free? 

 best thing that can happen to vanguard is they  tag a mob of all mobs in vangaurd and when u defeat the big bad mob monster   you get a big splash on your screen tthat saids gratz youz beat VG  u r l33tz .... then boot em to  the cancel sub screen of there account, while evryone else is enjoying the  vangaurd crafting n dilpo n the pug grps ect

I hate to see VG dying such a slow death, but it has lasted longer than I expected. I so wanted VG to be "the" game after EQ, but there are just so many things that went wrong with this game before it ever launched, that it just never recovered and has slowly gotten worse.

A friend and I tried the trial again not too long ago and I swear the game felt more alive and fun back in early 2006 than it does now.