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Originally posted by baphamet

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Originally posted by Anofalye

I compare to other forums and other communities.  If I ask for a PINK server in a game forum such as Saga of Ryzom, I won't be trashed, threaten, told to STFU, to leave, to go....peoples will find no need to defend the regular server that aren't pink.  Peoples will just either agree, or been constructive about it.  Not trashing it, yet the Vanguard community is indeed a lot lower than the SoR community it would seem.
These guys, would they react the same if someone would propose a PvP server with differents rules?  I mean, they are kinda lowly.

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i agree there are alot of trolls on the vanguard forum, but i think it has alot to do with the sheer size of it. again i read and replied to that thread and there was alot of people trolling your thread as well as alot of people offering well thought out reasons why they disagree with you.

i think you had a good idea what would happen when you posted that in the gameplay forum, that forum has always been like that and i have stopped going there because of it.

but again i am very confident the actual vanguard in game community will not be like that (except for the pvp servers maybe) and my reasons for that i have posted many times before, let me know if you need me to reintegrate it for you.

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I will do it for you!

 Because PvP players rule!!!!!

A troll is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, Anarchyart responds to almost all of my posts with his trademark assertion that I am a troll, which he follows up with some personal insult. And of course, I perceive him as a troll for continuously trying to bait me into some juvenile flame war.

He and I have a fundamental difference of opinion as to the purpose of these forums. I see them as a place to talk about Vanguard - the good, the bad and the ugly. He sees them as a place for people who like Vanguard to gather (and if you don't like Vanguard then you need to account for your presence here). I don't see us working through that difference of opinion anytime soon, so I will go on posting my opinions. He will go on posting his insults. And I will go on ignoring him lol.

What I do not do anymore, ever, is post on the Vanguard boards. The reason is that I see the purposes of those boards as being to get people to buy the game or to make improvements to the game. Since Sigil doesn't view any of my suggestions as improvements, there is no reason for me to be there anymore. If I continued to post there, I suspect that would be trolling.

But this website is more quasi-journalistic in nature. It's purpose (at least as I understand it) is for members of the mmo community to share their experiences and/or opinions about games, gaming and game features. In that way we all become better informed, or at least have lively discussions and get a better handle on other points of view. You don't have to like a game to have opinions about it. So I don't think being critical of a game that someone else likes is trolling at all.

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Originally posted by Amathe

But this website is more quasi-journalistic in nature. It's purpose (at least as I understand it) is for members of the mmo community to share their experiences and/or opinions about games, gaming and game features. In that way we all become better informed, or at least have lively discussions and get a better handle on other points of view. You don't have to like a game to have opinions about it. So I don't think being critical of a game that someone else likes is trolling at all.

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 The biggest problem with the people who post their opinions on this site, and write it as though it is experience. Tthe ones posting bad opinions of a game they have not played,  have seen nothing but a couple of beta testing videos. These videos show you a game in testing, that's not complete, yet they will come on here and say , "This game sucks, doesn't even look like it's done!" To me that's a troll.

 The OP I don't consider a troll per say, but close to it, but only because this person post the same idea, under several titles, and doesn't understand why they get bashed.  They tell the developers that they need to change the game they have spent years building, because they don't want to play it that way. That's like buying a texas hold em set and saying I don't want to play with the face cards, so we need to take those out...you think everyone else at the table is going to agree?

 I agree that there were some pretty nasty remarks on the Vanguard forums about the OP's ideas, but heck most of the post the OP makes here gets some harsh replies too.

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Originally posted by lordtwisted 

 The biggest problem with the people who post their opinions on this site, and write it as though it is experience. Tthe ones posting bad opinions of a game they have not played,  have seen nothing but a couple of beta testing videos.

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If that is how you feel then you are only a sliver away from understanding my reaction to saccharine praise and endorsement of a game people haven't played.

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by lordtwisted 

 The biggest problem with the people who post their opinions on this site, and write it as though it is experience. Tthe ones posting bad opinions of a game they have not played,  have seen nothing but a couple of beta testing videos.

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If that is how you feel then you are only a sliver away from understanding my reaction to saccharine praise and endorsement of a game people haven't played.

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 I understand that too. I think this game is going to be MY best option for a fun MMO in quite awhile. I also felt that way about EQ2 though, and was disappointed at it's launch. However a few months later I cam back to after some major changes, and I had a lot of fun for a few months, then it was boring again.

 I will defend this game as a work in progress, I will not defend it as a completed game. I will also praise this game for the great ideas the developers went with. I think they went in the right directions on a lot of areas....however I will not state that those areas are the greatest of any game made, until I see them in action, and get to actually play the game.

 The graphics that I have seen, out do most of the other games I have played though. And as said in numerous post before by many of us, Graphics are the smallest part of the game.

While i dont wanna join in on the discussion about Anofalyes posting habits or whatever, i do exactly know the feeling of what he/she described in the first post, and not only on forums.

At pretty much 90% of the times i talk about a neat idea that would add something to the game without forcing anyone to participate or change any existing gamestyles there's a huge outroar from all kinds of people who seem to feel that the game is not allowed to change at all, even if it doesnt affect their playstyle at all, or would just appeal to new audiences without alienating the old. They defend the game like a religion with absolute sovereignity, and i personally wonder that they even allow the Devs to change anything. (well maybe they dont and thats the same people that whine after every patch and that can never get a patch they like, i dont know)

Now what i really dont get is the playstyle of these people......
Ive been called carebear and other names often enough (while i personally do only refer to people as PVErs, raiders, PVPers (thats the kind you want) and Gankers (the kind you dont want), while all other people seem to either push or be pushed themselves into preset categories.....
My playstyle is "choice". I PVP but i want to choose when and how, same for raiding, soloing, grouping, questing, and virtually all my actions, forced or categorized playstyles arent for me, so i naturally like new additions of whatever kind.

The people criticizing all new ideas however seem to be so trapped in their own category of playstyle (and in some games raiding subcommunities or PVP guilds or whatever) they do not allow any other playstyle to exist, which is very familiar to people not allowing different ideas or opinions they merely have to tolerate, not accept.

Ive seen players influence game in many bad ways and not realize they are forcing it upon themselves all too often already and i'm sad for those games and their community, because they reduce a games potential to zero and never break from their preset track. The Community itself can ruin a MMORPG.

Now the different kind of servers mentioned are just a little fix to that, in the way that they split these people and keep them away from each other, also making it easier for me (the choice player), because when i log onto a RP/PVP/raid/whatever server i have a clear impression of the rules and workings of this server and its community, and can always log off when im fed up by that kind of play. As it is now, i welcome any MMO company that is smart enough to come up with different server types, because usually communities (or rather, people) dont undergo philosophical re-orientation and re-contemplation of their behavior so easily.

So what i want to say is, i think there is something BEYOND the design of a game that defines it, and that is the community. Managing the Community might be a job that needs a lot more attention from the developers, or just a few more centuries of spiritual evolution on humanity's part, until progress can be made in MMO Development, because as we all know the major difference to other kinds of games, and the part introducing the most hardships to development of MMOs, is the social/community aspect.

This applies to so called sandbox games aswell as developers that try to set a clear definition of what their game is meant to be played, because there usually is a small yet significant group (or groups) that will play it differently, and create their playstyle with the few resoruces the Devs put in the game for their kind of play. (This being PVErs in PVP games for example, usually hearing a lot of "Dont play this game then, its for PVP, <insert insult here>", facing the same resistance and/or uproar that people talking about new ideas face)

So to close this rant (i guess it is a rant, but the first post seemed like one too), i dont see an overly bright future for vanguard, and see it taking up a spot similar to that of EQ2 at best.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by ste2000
Vanguard is not the only game with raids, but he just posts in this forum and he ain't nice and pleasant either.

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Do you think you are nice and pleasant yourself to ask such from others?

The first rule in life is to ask from others what you offer or try to offer.  I don't even see you trying to been pleasant, even less nice.

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whats raiding? lol

Official Vanguard forums are very unfriendly. People keep attacking everyone who have different opinions. This is a very bad thing becouse I think that having a friendly community is the most important thing for a MMORPG to have.

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Originally posted by zultar

Official Vanguard forums are very unfriendly. People keep attacking everyone who have different opinions. This is a very bad thing becouse I think that having a friendly community is the most important thing for a MMORPG to have.

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Anofalye proposes that raiding is similiar to greifing in PVP. In pvp you have one player establish an edge with game mechanics (be level,gear,skills etc) and slay (kill) another player that for whatever reason didnt match up. Much like sports you have finality, judgement is passed we have a clear winner and a clear loser.

In most cases that form of playstyle would be labeled greifing since the slain player isnt prepared.

Where Anofalye's complaint lies in that "Raiding" brings a force of players together for the purpose of taking down targets that are otherwise impossible within normal game mechanices (groups or soloers). These encounters typicly offer rewards that set the raiders far apart from casuals,soloers or even the semi hardcore.

Then you throw supply and demand into the mix by making the "big" targets rare, sometimes days or weeks in between cycles.

Here is what ends up happening with say a server population of lets say 1200:

1) 500 casuals - This section is 40-50% of the player base.  Rarely see the endgame material and suffer the most under this system. (average weekly 1-10 hours)

2) 350 semi - casuals - This type of player might "power game" to max level then their play time turns casual. This is the guy you see log in for raids 2-3 times a week. A weekend warrior would fall into this category. Raids during week and could devote hours on weekends. (average weekly 8-15 hours)

3) 50-100 - Hardcore casual - Kind of a non factor. This population represents the gamer that jumps servers and games frequently. In most situations this player wont make the social interactions to see end-game, since they'll power game to max level and quit/burnout in 2-3 weeks. (average weekly 35-85 hours)

4)  50-150 Power Gamers - Players that love the game, play alot, and tend to stick around longterm. This area is your guild leaders/officers and backbone members of most successfull guilds. (average weekly 16-50 hours)

5) 40-100 Elitists - One or Two guilds that are taking down those big targets. Usually highly organized and comprised of 10-20 power gamers, 2-5 hardcore casual (that manage to slip in) and 15-30 semi-casual raiders. Almost every highend WoW raid guild fits this mold (and EQ1).

I realize im over simplifing abit but this is how it usually breaks down. In this system the only real "winner" is the 5-15% elitists. (unless your content being 2nd class, much like the losing player in the pvp example).

Solutions: Instancing of boss mobs, smaller respawn timers and lower raid requirments. 18-20 players is fine, more becomes an issue.