Dink you make alot of intersting and some valid points in my opinion, however you also seem to construe thing differently than I and in some cases add things that just arn't there or at least not that I've seen.

so much of whats hardcore and whats casual is opinion and very much open to interpretation. however none of what Sigil has stated has changed in the years that I've been following the game. there focus always has been on group play and not to  either extreem. it is not and never was geared to "hardcore" and I have yet to see anywhere that its ben "altered" to meet a diferent playstyle.

you did a wonderful job of gathering the quotes but I dont entirely agree with you summaries of them.

Quote:

So corpse runs will be standard - thus you can lose your gear in a dungeon and have to spend hours retreiving it.  They will support several sets of gear to make this less of a burden.  What this doesn't tell you is that the death penalties they are experimenting with also include xp debt/loss as an additional penalty - as well as making the penalty smaller or higher based on the difficulty of the mob.  Thus you might be outside a town and get killed by a rat and face no penalty at all, but if you were in the depths of a dungeon and fought the named mob King Rat NippyWhiskers, you might find yourself with a difficult corpse run, item detioration, and heavy xp debt/loss.

As most groups won't wipe except at the most difficult portions of content, what this really means is that you should fear the death penalties if they keep the dynamic death penalty system they are experiementing with as those will be the deaths most players will have to deal with.

Yes corpse runs will be standard.. yes you will need to retrieve your gear.  yes you can and likely will have a second set.  and yes there is a exp penalty and while it is not in the peice you quoted it is stated elswhere and in all forums including this one..

you do make an assumption here on how the varience in exp loss will work. it could be the exact opposit for all we know and dying to something far below your level could have a higher deth penalty and dying to something of great challenge could be less of a penalty.. we just dont know yet and as you stated they are still playing with this balance.

and where the heck did you come up with "item detioration" and also where did "Heavy" exp loss come from? when just before you said yourself they are still balancing this... interesting Objectve point of view

Quote:

What this means is that while you CAN solo, you will not gain as fast xp or as good loot doing so as those who group as the game is clearly focused on group content.  There is an exeption to the items in the endgame, see my discussion below #4.

yes this does meen you can solo and just lake all other games soloing is in general slower and less rewarding than grouping.. what tis means to me is that logic dictates more people can kill more things and at a faster rate and of a higher level then a single player can..

all mmorpg's that I have played to date are focused on group play. they are all designed in way's and with characters that have inherent strenghts and weeknesses that make them far more affective when grouped.

Quote:

So while you can solo, you cannot easily move from solo play to group play.  They will reward grouping so heavily that unless they decide to reward solo play better, it will be a difficult playstyle to integrate.

this again in my opinion is not much different then most current mmorpg's  where if you are soloing you are killing fiewer and lower level mobs. thus recieving lower level loot thus making you in comparison to other players that are consistenty grouping less equiped.

what they are doin differntly than most current mmorpgs is creating areas that are easier to solo in, so as a solo player you can choose to fight only in these "easier" areas.. rather than your only option being to fight the content designed for groups where you have to be far mor cautous when pulling etc and avoiding adds. it does NOT say that you cannot play your solo character in the grouping areas only that it will be more dificult to do so.

Soloing in group areas is dificult in any mmorpg, even in wow as so many often refer to as the "casual" game. the best gear is in instances, those instances are impossible to solo in at a level that the loot would be worth anything to your character.

Quote:

This FAQ actually isn't the best source of information here, what has been said by Ardune (a Sigil dev) is that for the absolute best items you will need to engage in all of the playstyles to a limited degree in the endgaem.  So maybe the best breastplate will come from raiding, the best weapon and greaves from grouping, and the best gloves from solo, the best shoulder pads from crafting, and the best jewelry from diplomacy (just an example).  Thus they are planning on rewarding all playstyles in the endgame.

Wow assuming you are right here this is great news.. far better than wow and EQ and any other game I have played where ALL the top gear comes from Raids!!

Quote:

So yes, travel times will be long, but they will be assisted to some degree by boats and mounts.  If  your friend are on a different continent and you are on oppossite sides of it then there are no systems for instant travel as you have seen in newer MMOs, and you may have to spend 15 minutes to an hour getting to one another (exact time estimates are based off of released dev information) depending on your mounts and distance from one another and the "getting there" challenges.

However, if you use the Fellowship system then you can stay together with close friends in level as well as in-game distance.  I'll quote the FAQ on the Fellowship system here:

Now I do find it interesting that most people complain about meating up with ther friends in the beging and that insta travel prohibits this.. in reality this is true with most game even with insta travel.. in wow as an example you cannot easily go from iron forge to meet your night elf friend at level one. there is not insta travel at this point. now granted this does get easier later once you know the way and have played the game for some time.. but for a new char its still a run no matter what. It will likely get easier for people later in vanguard as well onece you learn the ways and the game in general .. but for new chars it will always be a run ( just don't be an orc in Wow when your friend is a nightelf ... it gets really dificult at that point)

Quote:

Conlusion:

Vanguard has a hardcore death penalty by modern MMO standards as it contains living corpse runs (note you can die on the way to your coprse in Vanguard because you are not a ghost as you are in WoW), item loss from these corpse runs (at least unil the corpse is retrieved), and xp debt/loss. 

However, it is at it's core, a group game designed for groups to play together as the majority of content is built around grouping.  Solo play is possible and raids will exist, but solo play will not be tenable except as a way to get a small number of peices of gear in the endgame, but at the same time, raiding will also only be required for getting a small number of pieces of gear in the endgame, so that balances out with grouping getting the prize.

Travel times will be long in comparison to newer MMOs, but if you are planning on playing with a set group, then you should be fine.

Make your own decisions based on the game mechanics and not the rhetoric folks.  This may be middle-ground enough for mainstream gamers to overlook some of the hardcore game mechanics, but they are certainly there and you shouldn't have to pay $50 to learn about them before quitting if the game isn't for you. 

interesting opinion but not necessarily true.. it is not a "hardcore" death penalty in my opinion.. is it more sever than Wows .. yes.. but its not Item or money drop and its not perma death .. those are far more "hardcore" in my opinion.

yes travel times will be longer .. but hopefully more entertaining also .. have to wait and see on that..

what affect does a long run have on getting a pick up group? that confused me a bit...

Yes make your own decision.. preferably on what you learn about the game and what you decide you like or dislike  and not just on other persons interpretation of things.. the game is not released yet and is still under an NDA so all any of can do at this point is speculate and interpret what info there is available.. you can see the same info can mean verry different things to different people.

~Aruvia~

Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.

I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre. 

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Originally posted by MX13
Please stop this... form what I've heard, the death penalty changed today even, so why keep knocking something they've said they're changing & working on... why not contribute & make suggections about how the system should be designed? It's clear the Dev's are listening...

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Me no likey death penalty.

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Originally posted by Dabble

Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.

I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre. 

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I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.

in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.

your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.

I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..

Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.

If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.

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Originally posted by Dabble

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Originally posted by MX13
Please stop this... form what I've heard, the death penalty changed today even, so why keep knocking something they've said they're changing & working on... why not contribute & make suggections about how the system should be designed? It's clear the Dev's are listening...

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Me no likey death penalty.

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Originally posted by Kalysa

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Originally posted by Dabble

Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.

I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre. 

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I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.

in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.

your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.

I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..

Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.

If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.

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Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?

I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre.  Why is that a bad statement?

In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time.  However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.

The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff.  But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me.  Which is ok...

I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches

Dable, My intent is truly not to flame you, only to disagree with you and try to solicit a response that would help me better understand your blunt statement of your point of view..

While there are likely games out there attempting to deviate from this standard of rpgs, to use linear progression as a reason that casual players would not like the game does not make sence to me as all current mmorpgs including ones that casual players do enjoy us this same style.

"at the end of the day" I did not know what you meant. and at this point I still dont entirely understand. top gear  in WoW is also obtained strictly through raiding!?!  and a game often considered more hardcore like lineageII does not require raiding for top gear.

I do completely agreee that a death penalty of any sort is more severe than Wow but that does not make it a hardcore game, again in my opinion it is still more of a middle ground. now of course some people have such a strong aversion to exp loss that this is a game breaker and some have such an extreme aversion to a corpse run that this is also a game breaker for them. However in my opinion it is not as severe a penelty as many other games and from what I understand the corpse run is greatly improved since say EQ1.  So this would fall somewhere in the middle and not the extreme hardcore that you feal it is.

I do feal that, much like the OP in his deliberate misinterpretation of the FAQ, your statement was a bit of a backhanded compliment, you classify it as a type of game that it clearly is not apply truisms of the genre as proof of your point, that I can only guess at the purpose to be to steer less astute players away from the game  and then attempt to justify it by saying it will be good for the genre.

While I do enjoy hearing and understanding oppinions apposed to mine.. like the OPs that were carefully thought out.  Short blanket statements with no real eplanation tend to get my hackles up.

you are of course entitled to your opinions I was just frustrated with the lack of  reasoning..

On the bright side at least your posts arn't long rambles that most people cant stomache reading like mine.. maybe I should take a lesson from you on that...er..  maybe next time =) I did it again.

Really a quite decent O.P. and it paints a fairly accurate portrait of how I envision Vanguard to be also. It's not being geared toward casual/new to the market players. It's the game I have been wanting since I first left EQ and I just can't wait. A game where travel means something, with disagreeable if not harsh penalties for taking big chances, along with great rewards for those who prevail! A game where you aren't given the purple sword of huge-osity on a silver platter. But have to scrape and earn your gear piece by piece, victory by victory.

To get all the very very best items in Vanguard yes, you will have to raid. But I can live without it if the journey is interesting and it's all about fun. Item drop fun is fleeting, the fun is really in the journey for me and the locations and challenges.

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Originally posted by Kalysa

Dink you make alot of intersting and some valid points in my opinion, however you also seem to construe thing differently than I and in some cases add things that just arn't there or at least not that I've seen.

so much of whats hardcore and whats casual is opinion and very much open to interpretation. however none of what Sigil has stated has changed in the years that I've been following the game. there focus always has been on group play and not to  either extreem. it is not and never was geared to "hardcore" and I have yet to see anywhere that its ben "altered" to meet a diferent playstyle.

you did a wonderful job of gathering the quotes but I dont entirely agree with you summaries of them.

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Yes corpse runs will be standard.. yes you will need to retrieve your gear.  yes you can and likely will have a second set.  and yes there is a exp penalty and while it is not in the peice you quoted it is stated elswhere and in all forums including this one..

you do make an assumption here on how the varience in exp loss will work. it could be the exact opposit for all we know and dying to something far below your level could have a higher deth penalty and dying to something of great challenge could be less of a penalty.. we just dont know yet and as you stated they are still playing with this balance.

and where the heck did you come up with "item detioration" and also where did "Heavy" exp loss come from? when just before you said yourself they are still balancing this... interesting Objectve point of view

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I got this information from a dev post explaining the new dynamic death penalties, and you are right that it is under testing so it definitely can change.  My point is that whatever the WORST death penalty offered by the dynamic death penalty is, it is the one to be feared as they are also attaching the worst death penalties to the things most likely to kill you in the game.  As it is still under testing, they could make the dynamic death penalty not as bad, but I feel that this is unlikely given how clearly the game was targetting hardcore gamers before and thus how they are a large population in the beta.

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yes this does meen you can solo and just lake all other games soloing is in general slower and less rewarding than grouping.. what tis means to me is that logic dictates more people can kill more things and at a faster rate and of a higher level then a single player can..

all mmorpg's that I have played to date are focused on group play. they are all designed in way's and with characters that have inherent strenghts and weeknesses that make them far more affective when grouped.

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this again in my opinion is not much different then most current mmorpg's  where if you are soloing you are killing fiewer and lower level mobs. thus recieving lower level loot thus making you in comparison to other players that are consistenty grouping less equiped.

what they are doin differntly than most current mmorpgs is creating areas that are easier to solo in, so as a solo player you can choose to fight only in these "easier" areas.. rather than your only option being to fight the content designed for groups where you have to be far mor cautous when pulling etc and avoiding adds. it does NOT say that you cannot play your solo character in the grouping areas only that it will be more dificult to do so.

Soloing in group areas is dificult in any mmorpg, even in wow as so many often refer to as the "casual" game. the best gear is in instances, those instances are impossible to solo in at a level that the loot would be worth anything to your character.

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Nothing to add here.  The FAQ is very clear that soloing is possible, but that you cannot recieve rewards from it equal to grouping and that moving from soloing to grouping and/or raiding would be difficult. 

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Wow assuming you are right here this is great news.. far better than wow and EQ and any other game I have played where ALL the top gear comes from Raids!!

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You were discussing how they reward various playstyles in the endgame here.  Yes, this is their biggest move towards casual players.  WoW is changing up their game completely with Burning Crusades to also be this way and if you read the Gods & Heroes boards, you will see that they are also planning an endgame that rewards various playstyles.  Everyone leaving WoW because 40-man raids sucked really had an effect on the industry.

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Now I do find it interesting that most people complain about meating up with ther friends in the beging and that insta travel prohibits this.. in reality this is true with most game even with insta travel.. in wow as an example you cannot easily go from iron forge to meet your night elf friend at level one. there is not insta travel at this point. now granted this does get easier later once you know the way and have played the game for some time.. but for a new char its still a run no matter what. It will likely get easier for people later in vanguard as well onece you learn the ways and the game in general .. but for new chars it will always be a run ( just don't be an orc in Wow when your friend is a nightelf ... it gets really dificult at that point)

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People want to play with their friends.  Long travel times often precludes that. 

Also, it does get easier for people to travel to one another later on in Vanguard, that's why I said 15 minutes to an hour.  When you get high enough level, and if you have a high level mount, and are on the same continent, then people are reporting that you can get across it in about 15 minutes.  That's not that big of a deal, but if a player has only 2 hours to play and they aren't yet AT THAT LEVEL, then they can either not play with their friends, or they can spend half their play time traveling to them. . .  which sucks.

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interesting opinion but not necessarily true.. it is not a "hardcore" death penalty in my opinion.. is it more sever than Wows .. yes.. but its not Item or money drop and its not perma death .. those are far more "hardcore" in my opinion.

yes travel times will be longer .. but hopefully more entertaining also .. have to wait and see on that..

what affect does a long run have on getting a pick up group? that confused me a bit...

Yes make your own decision.. preferably on what you learn about the game and what you decide you like or dislike  and not just on other persons interpretation of things.. the game is not released yet and is still under an NDA so all any of can do at this point is speculate and interpret what info there is available.. you can see the same info can mean verry different things to different people.

~Aruvia~

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Originally posted by dink

The death penalty is relative to it's competition.  It is a much more hardcore penalty than WoW, G&H, or AoC (the games that won the most awards at this year's E3 and thus most likely Vanguard's biggest competitors a the time of release - Warhammer Online and Star Trek Online will be big competitors too. .  .  a year later).  It isn't as hardcore as Everquest (not quite) but it is a LOT more hardcore than it's competitors and MOST MMO players are WoW veterans that never played any other MMO.  They will probably only need one corpse run to send them flying back to WoW or some other less punitive game.

Travel times I have explained earlier, and finally, I'm glad that you agree that players should read the facts and make up their own minds.  That was the point of this post.  :)

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Dink, first thank you for the compliments I truely never intend to flame anyone, however I do often dissagree which unfortunately is often construed as flaming. but I do enjoy opinions that are well thought out and different to mine which is why I am impressed with your posts.

In the end you are very right on many things, Perception is everything. so wat I percieve to be not so hardcore do to my past experiences, others may find very hardcore do to thier past experiences. I have been playing MMORPGs for such a very long time that I at times find it dificult to relate to people who have only played WoW. while I too have and still do play WoW and in fact really really enjoy it my perspective is from a much broader range of experience.

So in my opinion, yes Vangauard will be far more challenging than wow. and again in my opinion this will not make it hardcore just more so than WoW. I do not feal that being more dificult and challenging will in any way make it un enjoyable to casual players. I do agree that there will be players that a corpse run and/or Exp penalty will be a game breaker for. in many ways I think that its unfortunate as I personally feal it adds alot to the over all gaming experience. but I am very glad the the industry is expanding such that there will be other games both new and old that these players will enjoy.  I feel that Vanguard has so much potential for me in what it has to offer both in terms of adventuring content and its other two spheres that I will likely spend a considerable amount of time playing it.. I am what I would consider a casual player as I have very limited time to play but I am not adverse to challenge. I do not expect to get all the "best" gear. just as I dont have it in WoW which at this point still requires raiding. and really this doesn't bother me.

so again thank you for your point of view and if in the end you decide to try Vanguard I truely hope I will see you there.

~Aruvia~

edited to correct formatting

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Originally posted by Dabble

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Originally posted by Kalysa

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Originally posted by Dabble

Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.

I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre. 

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I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.

in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.

your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.

I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..

Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.

If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.

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Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?

I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre.  Why is that a bad statement?

In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time.  However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.

The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff.  But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me.  Which is ok...

I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches

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pardon if im wrong, but...

the "best" items in WoW come from raids. period. no other alternative, and with wow's pvp system it means, literally, raid or die.

its been stated several time in various places that the "best" items in VG will come NOT ONLY from raids, but also thru diplomacy and crafting. In fact, i beleieve brad mcquaid stated that more than likely the absolute "best" items will require you all 3 spheres.

as far as a death penalty goes, its not a bad thing. it encourages, even forces, having to clear an area instead of the system in wow. in wow with their 0 death penalty, you can literally train in, die, ghost back res and continue to train to your objective. when finished you simply res at their graveyard. you do pay a small gear repair (ok it can get sizeable) fee, but if you go naked there is no damage to your gear. thats not a system that encourages you to really play the game.

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Originally posted by hoppy87

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Originally posted by Dabble

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Originally posted by Kalysa

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Originally posted by Dabble

Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.

I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre. 

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I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.

in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.

your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.

I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..

Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.

If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.

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Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?

I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre.  Why is that a bad statement?

In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time.  However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.

The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff.  But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me.  Which is ok...

I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches

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pardon if im wrong, but...

the "best" items in WoW come from raids. period. no other alternative, and with wow's pvp system it means, literally, raid or die.

its been stated several time in various places that the "best" items in VG will come NOT ONLY from raids, but also thru diplomacy and crafting. In fact, i beleieve brad mcquaid stated that more than likely the absolute "best" items will require you all 3 spheres.

as far as a death penalty goes, its not a bad thing. it encourages, even forces, having to clear an area instead of the system in wow. in wow with their 0 death penalty, you can literally train in, die, ghost back res and continue to train to your objective. when finished you simply res at their graveyard. you do pay a small gear repair (ok it can get sizeable) fee, but if you go naked there is no damage to your gear. thats not a system that encourages you to really play the game.

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I just knew I was gonna get called out for that "best items" statement in WoW 

Yes, the truth is the VERY BEST items can only be obtained by 40 man raids in WoW.  However, you could without a guild obtain gear nearly comparable to what the majority of players have by doing the Honor grind and faction grinds.  And with that gear you can still compete quite well.

Needless to say, this whole topic is pretty stupid because none of us definatively knows what Vanguard will be like.  However, the OP was is absolutely correct about one thing....

Vanguard will have much more 'hardcore' mechanics than any of it's competitors.  The FaQ on their site tells me this much.

Needless to say, when it comes out I'll buy it and give it a shot.  But then again, I'll buy AoC, TcoS, WAR, etc. when they come out too.  Know why?  CAUSE I'M RICH, BITCH!!!

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Originally posted by Kalysa
Dable, My intent is truly not to flame you, only to disagree with you and try to solicit a response that would help me better understand your blunt statement of your point of view..
While there are likely games out there attempting to deviate from this standard of rpgs, to use linear progression as a reason that casual players would not like the game does not make sence to me as all current mmorpgs including ones that casual players do enjoy us this same style.
"at the end of the day" I did not know what you meant. and at this point I still dont entirely understand. top gear  in WoW is also obtained strictly through raiding!?!  and a game often considered more hardcore like lineageII does not require raiding for top gear.
I do completely agreee that a death penalty of any sort is more severe than Wow but that does not make it a hardcore game, again in my opinion it is still more of a middle ground. now of course some people have such a strong aversion to exp loss that this is a game breaker and some have such an extreme aversion to a corpse run that this is also a game breaker for them. However in my opinion it is not as severe a penelty as many other games and from what I understand the corpse run is greatly improved since say EQ1.  So this would fall somewhere in the middle and not the extreme hardcore that you feal it is.
I do feal that, much like the OP in his deliberate misinterpretation of the FAQ, your statement was a bit of a backhanded compliment, you classify it as a type of game that it clearly is not apply truisms of the genre as proof of your point, that I can only guess at the purpose to be to steer less astute players away from the game  and then attempt to justify it by saying it will be good for the genre.
While I do enjoy hearing and understanding oppinions apposed to mine.. like the OPs that were carefully thought out.  Short blanket statements with no real eplanation tend to get my hackles up.
you are of course entitled to your opinions I was just frustrated with the lack of  reasoning..
On the bright side at least your posts arn't long rambles that most people cant stomache reading like mine.. maybe I should take a lesson from you on that...er..  maybe next time =) I did it again.

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wow, i think i love you!

in all seriousness, i couldn't agree with you more on both of your posts.....and you said it better than i ever could, kudos...nice post's

I'm getting tired of this hardcore stuff.  None of us have the opinion of what hardcore actually is.  IF hardcore is Grinding tedium, then I have yet to find an MMORPG that wasn't hardcore (other than maybe some FPS MMOs).  Yes, WoW has tedious grinding. 

In this post i'm looking for answers... I want someone (or everyone) to post, in their opinion, what "hardcore" is and what it means for MMORPGs.  I want this to happen so I can tell you straight up if Vanguard is going to be hardcore or non-hardcore.

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Originally posted by Nitsu62

I'm getting tired of this hardcore stuff.  None of us have the opinion of what hardcore actually is.  IF hardcore is Grinding tedium, then I have yet to find an MMORPG that wasn't hardcore (other than maybe some FPS MMOs).  Yes, WoW has tedious grinding. 

In this post i'm looking for answers... I want someone (or everyone) to post, in their opinion, what "hardcore" is and what it means for MMORPGs.  I want this to happen so I can tell you straight up if Vanguard is going to be hardcore or non-hardcore.

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Hey dink,

Until you try playing the game you wont know anything for sure. Don't worry about until it is released, and then you can warn us on what a bad game it is.