I've read multiple posts where people that have played beta say that this is just like eq2 with better graphics and someone else comes in and says "you obviously havent read anything about this and just made an assumption because if you had you'd know its not going to be anything like eq2."

Apparently none of these people read the part about us actually PLAYING the game....if you knew anything about mmorpgs you would know that they are NEVER what the company promises..in fact they are generally less than 10% of what the company promises.

If you havent played the game dont tell the people that have that they dont know what they are talking about. I mean sure...this isnt exactly eq2 with new graphics....but its so damn close its ridiculous.

i'm not really sure what people are expecting from beta play. it's pretty sad actually, all the beta player leaks saying how this game sucks and what not.. it's not even friggin' completed, and IMHO not even close. people seem so desperate to just hate anything and everything cuz it's not exactally the way they want it.

And people need to learn that core mechanics of a game aren't going to change in Beta, 6 months before release. Bugs will be fixed, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added. But the game isn't going to turn around and make boring gameplay* into fun gameplay* in 6 months. At this point game mechanics are locked.

*A example.

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
And people need to learn that core mechanics of a game aren't going to change in Beta, 6 months before release. Bugs will be fixed, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added. But the game isn't going to turn around and make boring gameplay* into fun gameplay* in 6 months. At this point game mechanics are locked.

*A example.

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/agree

people keep saying that the game isnt done but what they dont realize is that in beta...the game IS done. They are just implementing fixes to bugs....reducing lag....stuff like that....that is the entire point in beta. The game isnt really going to change all that much, if at all from now until release.

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Originally posted by Povey151

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
And people need to learn that core mechanics of a game aren't going to change in Beta, 6 months before release. Bugs will be fixed, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added. But the game isn't going to turn around and make boring gameplay* into fun gameplay* in 6 months. At this point game mechanics are locked.

*A example.

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/agree

people keep saying that the game isnt done but what they dont realize is that in beta...the game IS done. They are just implementing fixes to bugs....reducing lag....stuff like that....that is the entire point in beta. The game isnt really going to change all that much, if at all from now until release.

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Totally and completely wrong. My understanding is that combat is only partially finished and has changed drastically since the game has been in beta. I have also heard diplomacy has been completely revamped. The thing is, none of it is finished yet. They are still making quite a few changes in the game so just because a small minority of people decide to break the NDA and say it isn't fun or that it reminds them of some other game doesn't mean the released game will be like that or even that they are telling the truth (being NDA breakers makes them known liars anyway).

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Originally posted by n2sooners

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Originally posted by Povey151

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
And people need to learn that core mechanics of a game aren't going to change in Beta, 6 months before release. Bugs will be fixed, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added. But the game isn't going to turn around and make boring gameplay* into fun gameplay* in 6 months. At this point game mechanics are locked.

*A example.

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/agree

people keep saying that the game isnt done but what they dont realize is that in beta...the game IS done. They are just implementing fixes to bugs....reducing lag....stuff like that....that is the entire point in beta. The game isnt really going to change all that much, if at all from now until release.

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Totally and completely wrong. My understanding is that combat is only partially finished and has changed drastically since the game has been in beta. I have also heard diplomacy has been completely revamped. The thing is, none of it is finished yet. They are still making quite a few changes in the game so just because a small minority of people decide to break the NDA and say it isn't fun or that it reminds them of some other game doesn't mean the released game will be like that or even that they are telling the truth (being NDA breakers makes them known liars anyway).

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Come on. Like I said, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added, the combat system may be tweaked, things removed, added, but it isn't going to change completely. They aren't going to suddently change it into a fast paced twitch combat system* 6 months before release.

*Again just a example.

My point was that major things aren't going to change. Currently the game looks like a newer version of EQ, with focus on grouping and raiding. 6 months from now it's going to look pretty much the same, and I bet tons of $ that the combat system is going to be pretty much how it looks like now.

I have played alot of mmo's and I have tested alot of mmo's, and I have never seen a game where major features are completely altered 6 months before release.

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
Come on. Like I said, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added, the combat system may be tweaked, things removed, added, but it isn't going to change completely. They aren't going to suddently change it into a fast paced twitch combat system* 6 months before release.

*Again just a example.

My point was that major things aren't going to change. Currently the game looks like a newer version of EQ, with focus on grouping and raiding. 6 months from now it's going to look pretty much the same, and I bet tons of $ that the combat system is going to be pretty much how it looks like now.

I have played alot of mmo's and I have tested alot of mmo's, and I have never seen a game where major features are completely altered 6 months before release.

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He proved you wrong though. Diplomacy was completely overhauled. But the way you worded everything just saves you from actually saying anything that can be disproven. Even if they completely revamped combat you could still come back after release and say "Well it's still just swords banging off shields, same thing."

Point is you're wrong. It's in beta and anything can change at any time. And how is WoW not a newer version of EQ that's easier with better graphics? You can call ANY game in development a newer version of EQ with better graphics. EQ was the first 3D MMORPG and all future games can and will be compared to it.

It's beta, it's 6 months from release. They won't do major revamps. Overhauling the diplomacy system is no revamp, it still follows the idea of the diplomacy system, it has just tweaked and fixed to work better. A major revamp would be that the scrap the whole thing, or make something else out of it.

They can't revamp major stuff at this stage without delaying the game for 6 months or more. It's Vanguard and in 6 months it's still going to be Vanguard, and not World of Warcraft 2 to put it like that.

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Originally posted by anarchyart

 Even if they completely revamped combat you could still come back after release and say "Well it's still just swords banging off shields, same thing."

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Bullshit. If the game is changed heavily from the current situation (Beta 3.0) till release I will be the first one to admit I was wrong. Save this post for release and we will see.

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Originally posted by n2sooners

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Originally posted by Povey151

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
And people need to learn that core mechanics of a game aren't going to change in Beta, 6 months before release. Bugs will be fixed, stuff will be tweaked, code optimized and content added. But the game isn't going to turn around and make boring gameplay* into fun gameplay* in 6 months. At this point game mechanics are locked.

*A example.

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/agree

people keep saying that the game isnt done but what they dont realize is that in beta...the game IS done. They are just implementing fixes to bugs....reducing lag....stuff like that....that is the entire point in beta. The game isnt really going to change all that much, if at all from now until release.

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Totally and completely wrong. My understanding is that combat is only partially finished and has changed drastically since the game has been in beta. I have also heard diplomacy has been completely revamped. The thing is, none of it is finished yet. They are still making quite a few changes in the game so just because a small minority of people decide to break the NDA and say it isn't fun or that it reminds them of some other game doesn't mean the released game will be like that or even that they are telling the truth (being NDA breakers makes them known liars anyway).

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have you ever beta tested a game in your life? that is the point in beta...beta is used to find bugs before releasing. Ive beta'd almost every single mmo out there and nothing changes...usually the bugs dont even get fixed. I dont know how you think they are going to drastically have a NEW combat engine

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He proved you wrong though. Diplomacy was completely overhauled. But the way you worded everything just saves you from actually saying anything that can be disproven. Even if they completely revamped combat you could still come back after release and say "Well it's still just swords banging off shields, same thing."

Point is you're wrong. It's in beta and anything can change at any time. And how is WoW not a newer version of EQ that's easier with better graphics? You can call ANY game in development a newer version of EQ with better graphics. EQ was the first 3D MMORPG and all future games can and will be compared to it.

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of course there are going to be swords banging on shields goon...its a fantasy mmorpg....why would i complain about that. Just because eq was the first 3D doesnt mean every game is like that. SWG, EVE, AC all have a different engine than eq did.

and i dont know what got you ranting about wow...i guess you are one of those mmo fanbois that think wow is the end all be all of existense and think that because i play mmo's i play wow....hate to tell you but wow is the epitome of generica...i hate that game.

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Originally posted by Povey151
I've read multiple posts where people that have played beta say that this is just like eq2 with better graphics and someone else comes in and says "you obviously havent read anything about this and just made an assumption because if you had you'd know its not going to be anything like eq2."

Apparently none of these people read the part about us actually PLAYING the game....if you knew anything about mmorpgs you would know that they are NEVER what the company promises..in fact they are generally less than 10% of what the company promises.

If you havent played the game dont tell the people that have that they dont know what they are talking about. I mean sure...this isnt exactly eq2 with new graphics....but its so damn close its ridiculous.

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EQ2 isnt even like EQ2 anymore...if Vanguard winds up being like EQ2 as it was when released, I will pick it up for sure.

As for 'nothing ever changes in beta'...you dont have to change the whole system to change the feel of the game. Also, dont forget the trend these days is to alter major game mechanics AFTER the game has released...look at EQ2, SWG, AA, ect.

ok ok ok ok ive heard its eq2 with better graphics BUT.....heres what i think....the main things that ruined EQ2 for me.

1. the Invisible Walls - how if you got to a little hill or you were in a small type of canyon and you couldnt walk/run over it....but you knew it was possible.  that crap pissed me off...and made the game feel very linear.  o lets not forget how i could swim about 10 yards out and magically i cant go swim any farther.  psshhh....i remember in EQ1 i fell off the but hehe =) and i just started swimming not knowing where i was...but it was so exciting...and i saw land, i was so excited i was like YESSS...then all of a sudden a shark apears and starts attacking me...i died...but it was FUN.  why get rid of that free world feeling?

2. Zones - Now i grew up with zones so its not a HUGE deal to me but i still feel that that they could have tried to make better solution then that.

3. Race Citys - they crammed half the races in ONE city, and the Other half in the Other city.  now lets screw the Lore for a second.  that was a dumb idea.  i mean i lost all feeling of my race being unique or cool because my race only had like ONE block of the city.  not only that but i could go right next door and see the other race.  that makes the game feel very cheap.  they should have had there Own city each race.  Example. eq1.

4. Transportation - you click on a Bell...../sigh...i mean come on....you click on a bell...and pick a place to go....boom your there after loading screen of course....i mean...wow....wheres the fun in that?  wheres the fun in just teleporting to some place....it should be about exploring and adventuring. 

ok now im sure there are more bad things about that game but those are my 4 MAIN major hates of that game...the things that made me really not like that game....so now lets look at  Vanguard.....

1. invisble walls - slim to NONE....they say if you can see it...you can probly go there....and if you cant its probly cause its for flying mounts to be able to get up there...like a special area

2. Zones - NONE all one huge world.

3. Race citys - havent seen much on that but so far we know that theres like what three major continents? so atleast we no that there wont be just two stupid citys.

4. transportation - they said that they dont really want to use a teleporting system... wich is good in my opinion..... although they are using a gate system wich is understandable and completey fine....you have all sorts of mounts for transportation and Boats...no more click on the dumb bell...thank god......

so....these 4 MAJOR things to ME dont seem to be a problem in vanguard what so ever....so when i hear ppl like you say its like eq2...i really dont get it at all...doesnt seem like it to me...and as long as those 4 things are the way they are and nothing like EQ2 then i cant agree with you that Vanguard is like EQ2.   thanks for your time lol =).

you can't ignore the fact that this game has been in development for more than 4 years and even now the stuff that's leaking out of beta is pretty grim in terms of people not liking the game.

Sorry, but people complaining about things that are not even live on the beta servers kinda loose credibility. For example complaints about not enough character customisation when by far not all options for customisations are live, heck not even all classes/races are testable yet. And that's just an example. Lots of things are not in yet. Saying stuff like "I was in all MMORPG betas and therefore I know this must be the final game" are simply wild guessing and lack of information on the actual game and progress of beta.   

It's not done yet and frankly if someone really thinks this game has anything in common with EQ2 than he just looked at the graphics and has seen, that Vanguard goes for the realistic high resolution textures/pixel shader look, just like some other games out there. IMO that's about as far as the similarities with EQ2 go.

Or would the OP care to elaborate why VG is like EQ2?  

Brumazk 

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
It's beta, it's 6 months from release. They won't do major revamps. Overhauling the diplomacy system is no revamp, it still follows the idea of the diplomacy system, it has just tweaked and fixed to work better. A major revamp would be that the scrap the whole thing, or make something else out of it.

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So, you are saying any changes to combat short of scrapping it aren't major? Okay, whatever.

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Originally posted by n2sooners

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Originally posted by Phoenixs
It's beta, it's 6 months from release. They won't do major revamps. Overhauling the diplomacy system is no revamp, it still follows the idea of the diplomacy system, it has just tweaked and fixed to work better. A major revamp would be that the scrap the whole thing, or make something else out of it.

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So, you are saying any changes to combat short of scrapping it aren't major? Okay, whatever.

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No I didn't say that.

I'm not here to bash this game, I'm rather interested in it, but I have some concerns (Something that is very normal). So stop trying to bash me.
I haven't seen a single game that has had major game changes in the last months of development.

Development Stages

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Originally posted by Povey151
I've read multiple posts where people that have played beta say that this is just like eq2 with better graphics and someone else comes in and says "you obviously havent read anything about this and just made an assumption because if you had you'd know its not going to be anything like eq2."

Apparently none of these people read the part about us actually PLAYING the game....if you knew anything about mmorpgs you would know that they are NEVER what the company promises..in fact they are generally less than 10% of what the company promises.

If you havent played the game dont tell the people that have that they dont know what they are talking about. I mean sure...this isnt exactly eq2 with new graphics....but its so damn close its ridiculous.

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You're assuming that all people criticizing those who are "leaking" thier experience aren't actually playing the Beta Themselves, they're just not stupid enough to say their playing the Beta, breaking the NDA and costing them thier Beta experience.

I for one know several People playing Beta, and although they comment and fight those who blindly flame VSoH, they never tip their hand that they are in the Beta, honoring the NDA as best they can.

Yes, well, the OP certainly has a point, however, I wish to make some predictive quotes.

Based on my experience, I give these a 99.9% chance of coming true.

(Some game to be released in, say, 2008 or 2009)

NewMMORPGX: "is just like Vanguard:SoH but with better graphics."

NewMMORPGX: "uses a carbon-copy of the Vanguard:SoH UI."

NewMMORPGX: "looks like a cut-and-paste of Vanguard:SoH."

NewMMORPGX: "what original idea does this game have that Vanguard:SoH doesn't already have?"

NewMMORPGX: "why is this considered a 4th-gen game?!"

NewMMORPGX: "the death penalty is too harsh and traveling is a time-sink."

NewMMORPGX: "ONLY 25 races and 56 classes?!  Too restrictive!!!"

NewMMORPGX: "how come I can't solo EVERYTHING in the game?!"

NewMMORPGX: "WHY no FFA PvP with full loot, no safe zones, breaking and entering and robbing and destroying player dwellings, and perma-death???!!!"

Specific server rules.

And my ability to not subscribe until that moment where there is a Non-Raiding server.  I don't care what happen on the Test server, on the Legend server, on the PvP server or on the raiding server!  My subscribtion is conditional to a non-raiding server (grouping focus).

PS: 1st generation - UO

2nd generation: EQ, EQ2, CoH, WoW, Vanguard

3rd generation: Not on the horizon, but I would bet BioWare is bringing it...

Vanguard might be in a different subclass than EQ, it is still in the same 2nd generation.  Just like there are 3 generations of cars, the very old stuff, the gas only, and the gas-eletric gen.  Someone trying to make 25 generations of cars is just putting subclass and confusing everyone.  There are major lines to draw, and there are only 2 generations so far.  1st and 2nd.  Human evolution is divided between Antiquities, Medieval, Modern and Comtemporain, no matter how hard you try, our kids will still be in comptemporain unless we manage a big feat (a colony in space?)...I am not even sure comptemporain and Modern deserve a distinction...sooo...Vanguard at best is to EQ what the Romans where to the Greek...but Vanguard might also be a lost Greek colony, still same era, same gen MMO!  I really like to compare EQ to old Greeks!  In the evolution of the MMOs scope, before there was UO (barbarians)!  In fact, the Romans are prolly WoW!  Vanguard sound like maybe Sparta or something...are you ready for the Wisigoths?  The Vandals?  AoC is prolly that with WAR, coming to swipe the face of Earth, until Charlemagne brought back civilisation (my guess with BioWare)!

No loading or instanced zones?! This game's nothing short of a godsend...by this point in my mmo scoping days i thought it highly unlikely a game like this would ever hit the markets. why a developer hasn't done what sigil has done with vanguard sooner boggles my mind....and furthermore, eq2 would have been an outstanding game had it not been for the rediculous load times and un-immersive preset paths you had to follow on down.