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Originally posted by ste2000

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Originally posted by Dimitrio

What I understand from the update FAQ and something that a lot of people have been saying in gaming communities, is that even casual players will be able to obtain  high end gear by combining the different spheeres, mostly the diplomatic + crafting sphere.

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Well yes.........that's what they are trying to convince you of.
Truth is that casual player won't be able to reach the same level of "uberness" as the more dedicated "core" player.

Obviosly you need to define what "casual" means, since it has different meaning for different people, but I assume you mean people which can play between 10-15 hours a week.
In order to be competitive in Vanguard you will need to spend at least 25-30 hours a week, even more if you really want to rock.
So it is not realistic for casual players to keep up the pace with the core ones, there is no point in trying to convince people of the opposite.

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Originally posted by CylusSigil

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Originally posted by Celestian
I don't care about other guilds progress nor do I care to waste my time with time sinks. I wanna game, not start something then go cook dinner, wash cloths only to come back and see I'm still on a damn boat or something.

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What if it's just some microwaveable mac & cheese?

Howdy Celestian, hope all is well :)

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Originally posted by Dimitrio

Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as  raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?

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I hope to God that Sigil does not change their vision and go with what they have planned.  I personally don't think we need another WoW or EQ2 type of mainstream games.  There's a reason I'm not playing either right now, same with my friends and several guildies that used to be in my WoW & EQ2 guild.  We need something...different.  I don't care if it's revolutionary or not, but it needs to be a tad different than WoW and EQ2.  I don't mind if Vanguard is going to be built for the hardcores, because I can fit that playstyle.  The minute they try to make everybody happy, that's when the game quality will go down, and it will no longer be Vanguard.

This is just my opinion.

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Originally posted by Mardy

I hope to God that Sigil does not change their vision and go with what they have planned.  I personally don't think we need another WoW or EQ2 type of mainstream games.  There's a reason I'm not playing either right now, same with my friends and several guildies that used to be in my WoW & EQ2 guild.  We need something...different.  I don't care if it's revolutionary or not, but it needs to be a tad different than WoW and EQ2.  I don't mind if Vanguard is going to be built for the hardcores, because I can fit that playstyle.  The minute they try to make everybody happy, that's when the game quality will go down, and it will no longer be Vanguard.

This is just my opinion.

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Originally posted by ste2000

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Originally posted by Anofalye
Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period.
May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for.
Good luck with it.

You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game.
Just find something that suits more your taste...........

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But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master.  And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.

Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.

DDO is an action game, no thanks.  Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.

On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game.  On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.

In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO.  I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.

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Originally posted by ste2000

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Originally posted by Dimitrio

Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as  raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?

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That's anyone guess really, that's what it puzzle me every time that people like Anofalye post their thoughts.

In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual, so they have the same chances as anyone else to be "uber".

So we have hordes of Casuals on the official forums and in this forum, complaining about the corpse runs, lack of insta travel, no AH, too long raids, tedious crafting and bla bla bla bla.....................

WOW, EQ2, Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Age of Conan..........how many more Casual games do people wants? Why can people leave Vanguard for the "core" players and forget about it?
I really don't get it...........

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LOL, you are plainly awful STE.  You reverse everything.  All freaking MMOs are enforcing a raiding or PvP end-game on unwilling players.

Would it be that hard to make sure that the best players in Crushbone are peoples who hunt in Crushbone and achieve everything they could inside Crushbone?

But please yourself, get more of this elitist trash attitude, be rudes with other players, be nasty, go ahead, trash with this elitist attitude.

WoW enforce raiding.

EQ2 enforce raiding.

WAR enforce PvP, RvR and prolly raiding.

AoC enforce PvP.

DDO plans to enforce raiding.

CoH enforce Raiding, RvR and PvP.

What more do you need to get into your skull that peoples are TIRED of this sucky enforcing attitude?  Peoples just want a good grouping game, no raiding, no PvP, no tradeskills, just...grouping!  Not 1 MMO atm is done that way, they are all enforcing some lames and foreign gameplays on unwilling players, after breaking promises...this is like a rape.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by ste2000

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Originally posted by Anofalye
Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period.
May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for.
Good luck with it.

You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game.
Just find something that suits more your taste...........

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But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master.  And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.

Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.

DDO is an action game, no thanks.  Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.

On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game.  On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.

In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO.  I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.

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this just in.....if vanguard isn't made the way Anofalye thinks it should be then brad is "lying" because he says its main focus is grouping.

i have pointed out to you so many freaking times, Anofalye that not everyone is a 100% achiever like you are.... not everyone agrees with you.

if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.

obviously MANY people disagree with you and no matter how much you cry about it, its not going to change anything.

again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.

you really do come off as a cry baby Anofalye, you spam the forums with the same anti-raiding argument in every single post thinking it will make some sort of difference.

it will make no difference, you are not convincing anyone to make a game for you. i suggest you go whine to a game Dev somewhere if you really want your voice to be heard because all you are doing here is spamming this forum.

I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit harsh, but really......if you seriously want to have a game/server with no raiding this is not the place to be complaining about it ENDLESSLY.....go to the games actual website where your voice might possible be heard, because it is not going to be heard here more than likely.

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Originally posted by dimaryp
I think raiding is a terrible design goal too.Vanguard will fail, it almost already has, it will be too hard for most people, and it will be too soft for the "core" people.One thing you have to understand, some people don't like to raid, and honestly, I think most people don't like to raid, people just like good loot.D

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i like to raid, not just for the loot but for the epic encounters as well.... but you are right alot of people just want good loot. and i will also say vanguard hasn't been released so how has it "almost failed"?

you may be right that most people don't like hardcore elements like raiding, but there is still alot of people that do like it.

if you are judging this game on how "mainstream" it will be, then yeah it will fail in your eyes. but yeah i don't blame people for hating raids, everyone has their own tastes and preferences.

personally i don't mind raiding, and i like alot of the elements that will be in vanguard so for me weather it fails or not remains to be seen.

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Originally posted by ste2000
That's anyone guess really, that's what it puzzle me every time that people like Anofalye post their thoughts. In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual,

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Can you quote Anofalaye asking at for a game to be 'dumbed down' or made more accessible to 'Casual' players, especially in this thread or board? I've seen her post a lot, and I've never seen her talk about reducing the skill requirement for a game or making things take less time - she always talks about raiding vs grouping, not about 'dumbing down' or 'Casual' play. Or are you using those terms in some unusual ways?

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Originally posted by baphamet
if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.

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Why do you persist in outright lying about what other people say? Anofalye has very clearly and repetedly stated that the problem is raiding ENFORCEMENT, not the mere presence of raiding in the game.

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again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.

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Again, more outright lying, because I know she's explained her views to you before. It's not that there are other ways to advance your character, it's that you have to raid if you want your character to be the best at grouping. Not that you CAN raid to get better equipped for grouping, but that raiding is required to get the best tools for grouping.

I find it interesting that you guys argue on one hand that people shouldn't make posts like Anofalye's because they won't make a difference, and on the other hand argue vehemetly that such posts should not be made. If they won't make a difference, why worry about them? I think the real issue is that they will make a difference to people who might be suckered into Vanguard without knowing what the game is really going to be about.

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Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by baphamet
if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.

Why do you persist in outright lying about what other people say? Anofalye has very clearly and repetedly stated that the problem is raiding ENFORCEMENT, not the mere presence of raiding in the game.

again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.

Again, more outright lying, because I know she's explained her views to you before. It's not that there are other ways to advance your character, it's that you have to raid if you want your character to be the best at grouping. Not that you CAN raid to get better equipped for grouping, but that raiding is required to get the best tools for grouping.

I find it interesting that you guys argue on one hand that people shouldn't make posts like Anofalye's because they won't make a difference, and on the other hand argue vehemetly that such posts should not be made. If they won't make a difference, why worry about them? I think the real issue is that they will make a difference to people who might be suckered into Vanguard without knowing what the game is really going to be about.

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patastic....STHU i am not lying....he has indeed said many times he wants a game/server with absolutely no raiding at all and since you decide to call me a liar i had to bust out on some quotes, hope you like crow for dinner.... all quotes from Anofalye.

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Then why not have 1 such server, no raiding, raid loot put on a merchant that request more and more of something, even gold if you want, but rather be something NO DROP for obvious reasons, yet I would even accept gold despite the fact IGE would be extremely happy about it, which is why I would prefer some stuff, like LDoN.

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If it would feature non-raiding server, it would be worth a try. No matter how badly I did argue against the evil meditating book in old EQ, there was something FUN in these features. Really, raiding is the main problem.

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I wouldn't make the decisions they did on many points, especially about instancing, but again, maybe it could be nice...if it was not in an evil package deal with raiding.

A meal, if I put shit in it, it is shit-and-a-meal. Vanguard, by having raiding on all it servers is losing much.

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Remove raiding and I would love it.

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I can't accept playing on a raiding server anymore than I would accept playing on a PvP server, these are harmful gameplays to what I love, which is PvE grouping. Yet, for some reason you understand that PvP ruins PvE, but you seem to be freaking incapable of understanding that raiding is just as freaking bad on grouping as PvP is. Raiding KILL grouping.

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A player may just HOPE a LOT. I honestly think Vanguard would make such a great game, as long as there is non-raiding servers.

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as you can see i am not lying and even though i know that ENFORCED raiding is the main problem he has, he also would like a game with absolutely no raiding at all.

the point wasn't really what he says its how he as well as you make post after post after post complaining about it like you are going to convince us to buy into your views or that somehow a game designer will read your posts and design a game for you.

i mean GD...its one thing to make 1...2......10....even 20 posts about the same topic but I'm reading hundreds of posts by the same guy all complaining about raiding.

and as far as the second quote where supposedly i am lying....i wasn't quoting anyones direct views i said it in the form of a question, i never even quoted him at all for saying any of those things you said i lied about.

notice the IF in those quotes? i put that word there for a reason. anyways i do not want to discuss about raiding any longer, if you hate it thats fine...just get your facts straight before you call someone a liar.

my 2 points:

1. raiding sucks maggoty goat turds

2. Brad has said his 'vision' is that to get all the hot crap gear, you will need to do a little of everything (raid, group, solo). Weather or not this is how it actually works out remains to be seen.

brad has said that he supports the idea that since raids take more effort to do they should be rewarded with more uber loot. 

out the other side of his mouth he says that the game isn't just for raiders. 

of course not, brad.  because that would mean that 80% of your player base wouldn't buy the game.  i'd say the same thing to.

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Originally posted by grinreaper

my 2 points:

1. raiding sucks maggoty goat turds

2. Brad has said his 'vision' is that to get all the hot crap gear, you will need to do a little of everything (raid, group, solo). Weather or not this is how it actually works out remains to be seen.

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 my 2c,

!: Fact -there is nothing concrete about raiding yet, bar Brad saying "some" high end loot will come from it.

I enjoy raiding in most mmo's just cus of community. i've been lucky & been involved in a small (40 odd), guild since Eq in '99.   So i beg to differ )

2: It's a loot-centric game & subscription based , the longer & more skilled you play , the better the gear. The aim of Sigil /SOe is for us to play as long as possible. So be it )

think you still miss one point, even if there is 20% uber equipment from raiding, you can still have the second best equipment from the other spheres, so you can get near perfect equipment (90-95%) of equipment doing no raiding, so i dont see why raiding would be obligatory

someone who does 100% of content would have perfect equipment

someone who does 80% leaving what he doesnt want to do still is able to reach near perfect equipment

and if you have a lot of urge for getting that solo raiding sword, you could buy it(you should have plenty of resources from crafting-grouping)

my english is not perfect, but think you will understand what im trying to say

Edit: think first paragraph was a bit confusing i didnt want to say you can get 15% of best equipment, it was more like this

second best equip -> 15%(a bit worse than best equip, but good equip still)

Best equip -> 20%

and someone who only raids and sometimes groups would have round 50% of best equip