PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download,Retail | Retail Price:$09.97 | Pay Type:Hybrid | Monthly Fee:$14.99
Desktop Client | System Req:
| ESRB:T| Out of date info? Let us know!
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Forum » General Discussion raquo; Vanguard - Still Hardcore Players ONLY
| 61 posts found | |||
|---|---|---|---|
|
Sigil is trying to get more than hardcore gamers interested by rewarding different types of gameplay and by making some areas of the game less hardcore than others, but they've also made it very clear that to get the best stuff in the game, players will have to take huge risks that can result in item loss, xp loss/debt, corpse runs, and/or having to wait for a corpse to respawn. Normal players hate gameplay that requires them to ante up their free time as chips. In single player games where there isn't a monthly fee involved, designers know that failing a mission and having to start over again carries a large enough sting and that the way to keep players motivated is to give them challenges to their skill that are really difficult, but that allow them to pick right back up and keep having fun playing if they fail. MMOs that HAVE monthly fees invented all of these ways to keep players playing their games for months and months even though it would be impossible to create enough game content for all of them. These "risks" are really just timesinks. They don't make the content more challenging. They just make it more tedious, and casual gamers just won't put up with it. The argument now is that casual gamers could play the game and never take on the "higher risk" mobs that hand out these insane timesinks if you are defeated. However, normal players are just short on real-life time; they aren't short on ambition. They still want to get all the cool gear and see all the cool content. They just want to do so at their own pace because their time is limited. Making them ante-up MORE of their free time as a "risk" is just retarded. They won't put up with it when there are so many options out there that allow for playing without timesink penalties. |
|||
|
9/01/06 9:05:01 PM#2
i dont see ur point?....if u dont want to play it...then dont play it. not trying to sound arrogant just dont really understand what ur trying to say besides that the game is geared towards ppl who are a little more hardcore about mmorpgs.
|
|||
|
Bonzar
 Novice Member
Joined: 8/08/04
When you do something right, no one will have known that you''ve done anything at all. |
9/01/06 9:16:58 PM#3
I can see what the OG meant on this. At first, Sigil made it very clear that their game was designed for those missing the original EQs "epic" feel. I can't say I agree with his assumption that these time-sinks are generated for revenue's sake, but I know how he feels.
I think that by creating a world that acts a bit more realistically (lots of waiting around and boredom where you chat with others, have to take long walks to discover areas, etc.) does give a lot of players (not necessarily the majority) a sense of accomplishment and immersion in the more grandiose sense. I don't have time for this kind of thing though, which is why I play Guild Wars, first person shooters and Anarchy Online (it's free, I don't care how long it takes me to hit level 200). I do think that Sigil never made apologies or tried to market towards casual gamers. The idea that they are now trying to appeal (even if it's just slightly) towards "casual players" is a joke. The game is purposefully designed for one audience and they should stick with it. The idea that you could play casually and feel any sense of equality with the hardcore group and their L337-loot is a joke. If you are like me or the OG, don't play this game. Unless you have spare cash and don't mind paying $15/month for playing 10-20 hours in the same period and making little headway. In which case, go ahead. In fact, just decide for yourself. Forget what I said about not playing. I'm a maniac, what do I know?
|
||
Recently there have been a lot of posts about how Sigil is making the game more accessible to normal players instead of being just for hardcore players. They've focused on the facts that they are making it so that players can avoid hardcore death penalties and they are awarding different styles of play with good loot instead of making the best loot exclusive to raiders (I doubt raiding will ever happen if they don't give it the best loot, but that's a different subject). What they aren't saying is that people who hate timesinsk because they have a limited amount of time for entertainment each week will have to either be second class citizens with crap gear or deal with those timesinks. |
|||
|
9/02/06 10:05:29 AM#5
i see what your saying now.....thanks for taking the time to explain that...=).....even if that is the case i still cant wait for vanguard =)!
|
|||
|
9/02/06 10:34:15 AM#6
You need to deal with the timesink or find a game who requires less time. -HELM = Raiding drop
|
|||
|
9/02/06 10:52:26 AM#7
Reading this post, I wouldn't believe they're saying the world will treat all gamers equally, they're just stating there's something in the game for casual players and the ones that seek more than the casual experience. //|//|// |
|||
|
9/02/06 11:05:02 AM#8
Deleted. Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes |
|||
|
9/02/06 11:33:24 AM#9
And they can. They can get way up there just as high as people who play it non-stop. As you said "on their own time". As long as they are having fun and are into the game, they'll eventually reach levels and get the gear that people who waste their lives away get. Its like playing any single player game, someone who playes it 10 hours a day is always going to finish it quicker than someone who plays it for an hour a day. Its common sense. If you feel there is a reason why they can't get the same stuff, you are wrong. I don't understand why people think that you can only get the best stuff, or reach the highest levels if you only play 30 hours a week. I know it would take you longer, but you can still reach everything those others can. I played EQ for 4 years... i never had a top level character (i got him to level 59 or 60 ) but over 4 years.... why did i keep playing?? it was b/c i was having fun... I wasn't trying to be the best or have the best stuff... it was b/c i was having fun. Its all about having fun. As long as you are having fun, i don't see why being inferior to someone who played it 30 hours a week matters. Even if you did play for 30 hours a weeek, there would always be someone else who was better than you. Its not about bragging rights. (although some think it is... just tell them that you had a great night with your wife. b/c family is first to a game... and whoever doesn't think so needs a reality check). If you think that it is not possible for a casual player to get the same stuff or reach the same level, then you are wrong. It is possible. Now, if a player is not having fun and only believes that they will ever have fun if they have the best stuff, then they are in the wrong genre, MMORPGs are not for them. Its like Football, its not for everyone. If you don't enjoy them then don't play them but don't bash them for what they are (its like going on a FPS site and complaining that it is dumb b/c you can only see the tip of a gun). However, If you do have fun, then no matter how much time you get to play, you will eventually be able to get up there and have some decent equipment. I honostly don't think i'm wrong on anything I said. If someone does believe that someone who only has a limited amount of time to play can not possibly reach a high level and/or have the best equipment... then I ask that you prove it. If you can then I'm wrong, and sorry for stateing something wrong.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes |
|||
1. The point is that the game is still exclusive to hardcore players because casuals won't put up with corpse runs, xp debt/loss, item loss, and all of the other timesinks in the game, so why are you talking about the way they are awarding different playstyles? That's actually cool and I said that in the original post. . . I'm not sure why you are going off topic. 2. Telling people to play a game that doesn't have timesinks completely proves the point I'm making. THEY WILL FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO PLAY. People won't be fooled by the fact that the risk is only apparent when you want good drops. They'll still take those risks because they want the uber loot. |
|||
|
Nitsu - It's not about ability to get the best stuff. It is about willingness to play a game that places timesinks around getting the best stuff. Failure should mean that you lose and don't get a reward, have to start over, and don't see your success. It should NOT mean that you have to pull yourself out of an xp loss/debt, item loss/corpse run, etc. hole before you can even try to give it another shot. People who hate these timesinks will not put up with them even if you reward different playstyles and you only have hardcore death penalties around the good drops/content. The point is though Sigil is making an effort to appeal to normal players, they aren't delivering real accessability that normal players crave and can easily get from other games. Their efforts to appeal to a broader market are ultimately half-measures that will be ineffective. |
|||
|
9/02/06 1:24:03 PM#12
name me a mmorpg that isn't a time sink.... also just because someone plays casual doesn't mean they don't want to put up with harsher penalties, thats a false assumption that is made up by some of the people that just don't like these mechanics. I'm sure there are casual players that wont like the harsh penalties and I'm sure there are some that will....casual does not mean instant content hand delivered on a silver platter. some people want a challenge and they want death to sting, i don't really see how that is limited just to people that play alot. that being said, if you are a true casual and play 10 hrs per week or less then i would have to say that vanguard may not be the game for you. it is a time sink (like every other mmorpg) and sometimes will require you to play more than 3-4 hours per setting. even though there are other things to do that can be done very casually (like crafting and diplomacy spheres) most of the content is designed for small group dungeons. i wouldn't say vanguard is for hardcore players only, depends how you define hardcore. i think if you play semi-casual during the week (1-3 hours a night) and hardcore on the weekends (4+ hours) that you can enjoy vanguard. you do not need to play 10 hours a day that is just BS, sure people will do that but you will not have to. |
|||
|
9/02/06 3:43:30 PM#13
ITs common sense to use (personal skill + effort)/time spent formula in obtaining items. I always try to put myself on the place of that who I am judging. In this case, if i were to be a hardcore anti-socialist nerd with rich parents and a hamster for a pet, id also be pissed if my uber toothpick I got from spending 3 weeks seducing orc women droped for a level 1 noob by a rabbit NPC. I think that reward comes from commitment. If I am commited to this game, i get a lot of treasures and adventures, if not, well I can still play but i wont be uber pimp with hordes of religious fanatical followers catching my breath in a tube and selling it on ebay.
My point is, casual players should not be ignored, but should not be granded all the cookies from the jar either. Now the tricky part is balancing this just the right way - not to piss off casuals by not letting them wear anything above rusty armor, and not to piss off hardcore MMO junkies by letting godly items drop of house pets. I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time. |
|||
Incorrect. There are demographics that show that mainstream (not casual specifically - though they are often part of this larger group) won't put up with harsh death penalties or other punishing timesinks. That's why MMOs that have harsh death penalties are always marginal in the U.S. The only super success so far has been WoW. They do not have harsh death penalties, mostly their death penalties are there to make it so that you can't marginalize content by zerging it (dying over and over and killing it ultimately through attrition), and as a money sink to keep the economy afloat. However, most of the 3rd generation MMOs will be following this lead and trying to broaden the market instead of returning to the industry's timesink roots. Gods & Heroes & Age of Conan do not plan hardcore death penalties (though they will have some that make it so that you cannot zerg content and so that there is a money-sink attached to death - just like WoW). The point I'm making is that they are going to all of this effort to try to appeal to a wider base of players, but they aren't REALLY doing it. Mainstream players will leave when they first encounter corpse runs, item loss, or xp debt/loss. It's interesting how they are trying to straddle the line and provide a lot of timesinks but in a way that they can rationalize, but ultimately players will see through it. If people hate corpse runs, xp loss, and item loss they'll hate them even if you only encounter them in the hardest parts of dungeons - and let's face it. Players don't usually die running around in the world doing normal things. Death USUALLY only occurs during challenging bits of the game. . . they've made these most challenging things the most punishing. |
|||
|
9/02/06 8:24:14 PM#15
Simply put, why do you have a problem with this? You think all games should be alike? Or that gamers that want this type of game shouldn't have it? It's a complex. Are you saying it shouldn't be because 5 million WoW players won't like that? So what? This isn't the game for you & them then. There are plenty more out there... but there's nothing out there for the complex gamer after SWG's fall, and folks like us are looking forward to the game for the same reasons you critize it. I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!! In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
|
|||
|
9/02/06 8:41:32 PM#16
whats incorrect? do you really think every casual play doesn't want harsh death penalties? do you think that just because the majority "mainstream" want a game like wow that some will not want a game like vanguard? there is a whole lot of people that are looking at this game, there are casuals that want to play vanguard and they know darn well of the death penalties. yes most casual probably wont like it i will agree with you there, but who cares? enough people will like vanguard some of them semi casual players.
|
|||
|
9/02/06 10:59:42 PM#17
Well i guess it depends on what you mean by casual players then. If casual player means someone who doesn't like death penalties then I guess i'm a hardcore player.... Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes |
|||
|
9/02/06 11:44:33 PM#18
1. Define hardcore and casual. I see them thrown around a lot, but they are never clearly defined. 2. And if you make the game way too easy, those who want a more in depth game will find something else to play. And currently there are a lot more easy mode MMOs than there are of the deeper ones.
|
|||
|
9/03/06 4:03:31 AM#19
I told you that you need to deal with the timesink or find another game (you have 2 options).
|
|||
|
9/03/06 6:38:49 AM#20
It seems simple to me: * If you play very casually, it will take more time to get whatever you want, that's true for any game - even Guild Wars. Yes I also do ask myself if paying $15 a month is really worth it if you play 10 hours a month, but then again: you may like the game, your friends are playing it et cetera. * Isn't a game an amusing timesink to start with? And are excellent drops and other accomplishements not the goals that you are working towards? Isn't it that the harder you have to work towards the goal, the sweeter it is when you finally got it? I just hope that the challenges will not get very easy to very steep like many games have. That reaching lvl 40 is doable withing a week and reaching lvl 45 after that will require 2 months and reaching lvl 46 will also take 2 months. And of course that there are many different end-game goals, not just 1 ultimate armour set and that's it. Perhaps the 3 "spheres" will all have different end-game goals? Anyway, I'm looking forward to this game. I like the idea of a massive world (although I don't like the flying mounts thing, for me it kind of defeats the fantasy/medieval feel to have aeroplanes around) and enough things to do for a long time. For me, in spite of the eye candy, GuildWars was horrible for the fact that you can do both campaigns within a few days with no meaningful challenges/accomplishments left whatsoever if you don't like PvP. Cast your vote: The importance of character customisation |
|||
