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Originally posted by solymnar
First off you do not KNOW what n2 prefers until he tells you.

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He has, as of this moment, 833 posts to this forum. You might want to think whether he might have told something on this topic in one of them.

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He asked if you think everyone should get the same rewards no matter what. To which you haven't responded.

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"I'm not sure... why you think I want something that I've said over and over on this board that I don't want." is, most definatley, a response to the question, and a rather unequivocal one.

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If you want ALL the top level gear you will have to participate in ALL the spheres and adventure styles which includes the peices that come from raiding and the peices that come from grouping and even the peices that come from soloing.

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If you have to participate in ALL the spheres to get ALL of the best gear, and one of the spheres is raiding, then by very basic logic it's clear that you have to participate in raiding. I'm not sure what you're really trying to argue, when what you've just posted clearly supports that if you want to have the best gear in Vanguard, you have to raid.

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But feel free to intentionally misinterpret this again. Though a bit of advice...just because you leave out the word "grouping" in your quote doesn't change the point that it was in the original post. ;)

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I haven't misinterpreted anything, the word 'grouping' was completely irrelevant. It's like if I said 'you need flour to bake a cake' and you said 'that's not true, you need eggs, butter, sugar, and flour to bake a cake'. I haven't made claims like 'you can get the best gear by only raiding' or 'you will not need to group to get the best gear' to which the 'grouping' part would be relevant.

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My guess is that you made a post or two on the official forums a long time ago and a bunch of people railed on you fairly/unfairly and you're still upset about it?

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Your guess is wrong, as I've never even registered on the official forums, much less posted there. I'm not really clear on how your guesses about events that you think happened on other forums are relevant to this conversation, but I don't really expect you to justify it.

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Originally posted by solymnar
If you can't understand the idea that players can get a complete set of top teir gear without raiding then you are either hopeless or intentionally blind because if you acknowledge this you case holds no water...my bet is on the latter.

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You cannot get a complete set of the best gear in the game without raiding, I've already posted a direct quote from Brad saying this and in your previous post you explicitly said that you could not get all of the best gear without participating in ALL spheres, one of which is raiding. If you want to call second-rate gear "top tier" then that's fine and dandy, but it's also fair for people to point it out when you do.

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Originally posted by Pantastic

He has, as of this moment, 833 posts to this forum. You might want to think whether he might have told something on this topic in one of them.

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Granted.  I haven't seen it on the VG forum but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

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"I'm not sure... why you think I want something that I've said over and over on this board that I don't want." is, most definatley, a response to the question, and a rather unequivocal one.

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Hardly.  If that's what you are implying it would sound like you want all raiding to be struck from the game completely, perhaps all soloing as well and aparently then by default strike out all crafting and diplomacy because it might tempt someone to try a different sphere to get an alternate eqiupement set?  If I'm wrong then why don't you explain you're unequivocal responce a little more plainly since so far all you've done is say how bad it is that end game raiding has equivalant level rewards to end game grouping.  That says nothing at all about what you think a better solution is.

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If you have to participate in ALL the spheres to get ALL of the best gear, and one of the spheres is raiding, then by very basic logic it's clear that you have to participate in raiding. I'm not sure what you're really trying to argue, when what you've just posted clearly supports that if you want to have the best gear in Vanguard, you have to raid.

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No, you are perfectly capable of getting a complete set of top end gear and avoiding raiding.  Its clear you are unable to differentiate the difference between all vs. a full set of equipment.  Or perhaps you are still acting intentionally stupid.  Either way it doesn't change the point that your argument is wrong.  If I have a full set of equipment and there is a different peice of equipment out there that would be an alternative with relatively equal value it does not change the point that I have a full set of equivalant but different equipment.

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I haven't misinterpreted anything, the word 'grouping' was completely irrelevant. It's like if I said 'you need flour to bake a cake' and you said 'that's not true, you need eggs, butter, sugar, and flour to bake a cake'. I haven't made claims like 'you can get the best gear by only raiding' or 'you will not need to group to get the best gear' to which the 'grouping' part would be relevant.

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OK fine you don't misinterpret, it's just that simple concepts elude you completely.  Its like playing telephone with a boarderline deaf person.  If you want to compare it at least do it right.  Its not at all your analogy but rather you can choose what store to get your flower, eggs, butter, and sugar from.  The difference is that some stores only carry x type of frosting.  So while you can most certainly make your cake from the ingrediants of whatever store you want, certain stores carry their own flavor and bells/whistles. 

Thus if you want the whole cake, any store will do.  But if you want ALL possible cakes then you will have to visit every store.  And if you really want to spend THAT kind of time playing...well...that's your call.  Additionally you may decide to trade a slice of your cake for a slice of somebody elses, but that is up to you and does not require you to go to a different store to make a whole cake.

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Your guess is wrong, as I've never even registered on the official forums, much less posted there. I'm not really clear on how your guesses about events that you think happened on other forums are relevant to this conversation, but I don't really expect you to justify it.

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Originally posted by Pantastic

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Originally posted by solymnar
If you can't understand the idea that players can get a complete set of top teir gear without raiding then you are either hopeless or intentionally blind because if you acknowledge this you case holds no water...my bet is on the latter.

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You cannot get a complete set of the best gear in the game without raiding, I've already posted a direct quote from Brad saying this and in your previous post you explicitly said that you could not get all of the best gear without participating in ALL spheres, one of which is raiding. If you want to call second-rate gear "top tier" then that's fine and dandy, but it's also fair for people to point it out when you do.

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Lets seperate what you keep ramming together.  "A complete set" vs. ALL

There is enough gear to comprise MANY complete sets.  It is WELL possible to get an end game complete set without raiding.  It is impossible to get ALL end game gear without raiding or buying a peice that was raided etc.  Which is what Brad said but you manage to continually botch up.  Do you get it now or does this basic concept still float past you?

Top teir is end game gear, the only thing that gets better is end game multisphere.  Which is "Thee best" and you can still avoid raiding for a set of it.  But you will have to either participate in diplomacy and crafting directly or have friends who do so and are willing to give or sell you the results to combine with your rewards from end game grouping.  And it will take A LOT of time and effort.

Second rate is non end game.  Feel free to keep trying to put words in other people's mouths but don't be upset when we repeatedly correct you.  It would be a lot easier if you simply read ALL of what Brad said, of course that might blow your argument to peices...

And as to the equally bogus worries about "gaps" between raiders and non raiders, the devs specifically posted that in no way is raiding required for flagging or progress into higher up content...but that might make sense considering VG is intended to be group centric...

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Originally posted by solymnar

Hi all,

...you might have heard that it's an old style game, or only for hard core players, or that it's too challenging and tedious. ...it's our job to get this message out, let you know about this game, and to dispel any inaccurate rumors you may have heard (for example, no, Vanguard is NOT a hard core raiding only game by any stretch of the means).

Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Original Producer & Co-Designer, EverQuest

Originally posted here:

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1387403#post1387403

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this game is only for folks who can afford to play 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, otherwise the game mechanics will tell you to "GTFO and DIAF u noob lolololol".

as far as i'm concerned, brad's 100,000 word essay reminds me of hamlet: "the lady doth protest too much, methinks".

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Originally posted by jonaku

this game is only for folks who can afford to play 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, otherwise the game mechanics will tell you to "GTFO and DIAF u noob lolololol".

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Whatever.  People like you are a complete waste of time to even bother with, you have nothing to base this on, no actual info, no actual game experience, nothing.  Every dev remark from the first day VG was announced noted otherwise.  Posted mech notes otherwise, listed content notes otherwise.

This is like arguing with a wall of ignorance.

Done with this thread. 

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Originally posted by solymnar
(me)"I'm not sure... why you think I want something that I've said over and over on this board that I don't want." is, most definatley, a response to the question, and a rather unequivocal one.

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Hardly. If that's what you are implying it would sound like you want all raiding to be struck from the game completely, perhaps all soloing as well and aparently then by default strike out all crafting and diplomacy because it might tempt someone to try a different sphere to get an alternate eqiupement set? If I'm wrong then why don't you explain you're unequivocal responce a little more plainly

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If someone says 'so you prefer a game like X' and a I respond with 'I'm not sure why you think I want something I've said before that I don't want', then what I'm implying is that I don't actually prefer a game like X and have stated before that I don't want X. Since that appears to be too complicated for you: I do not prefer game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth, and have told n2sooners that before when he's made similar allegations.

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since so far all you've done is say...

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When a person with over 600 posts responds to someone with over 800 posts stating that they've said something before, odds are good that it's a reference to a prior discussion.

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(me)If you have to participate in ALL the spheres to get ALL of the best gear, and one of the spheres is raiding, then by very basic logic it's clear that you have to participate in raiding. I'm not sure what you're really trying to argue, when what you've just posted clearly supports that if you want to have the best gear in Vanguard, you have to raid.

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No, you are perfectly capable of getting a complete set of top end gear and avoiding raiding.

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I said "ALL of the best gear" as did you in what I quoted from you. I'm talking about actually getting the best gear and whether raiding is required, not about getting some other set of gear.

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If I have a full set of equipment and there is a different peice of equipment out there that would be an alternative with relatively equal value it does not change the point that I have a full set of equivalant but different equipment.

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If I have a set of equipment and there is a different peice of equipment that would be BETTER, then I do not have a set of the BEST gear. If person B has a set of different equipment that includes some pieces which are the same and some which are better than what person A has, then person B has a BETTER set of equipment than A, and the use of the word 'equivalent' is rather questionable.

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OK fine you don't misinterpret, it's just that simple concepts elude you completely. Its like playing telephone with a boarderline deaf person. If you want to compare it at least do it right. Its not at all your analogy but rather you can choose what store...

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It looks like the simple concept of the analogy eluded you completely. Let's try this in the abstract. If I say "To get X you must do C". Responding with "No, to get X you must do A, B, C, and D" does not contradict the claim that "to do X you must have C", indeed it supports it. Listing the items A, B, and D are is irrelevant; they would only be relevant if the original claim was something like "to get X, you only need to do C".

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Because you sound like you have personal issues towards the devs and game in general and I'm curious to figure out where it stems from.

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Ahh, the 'amateur psychologist' angle; apparently not liking the design of a game or the devs equivocation about it means that one has "personal issues" towards the devs and game.

And in the other post:

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(me)You cannot get a complete set of the best gearin the game without raiding, I've already posted a direct quote from Brad saying this and in your previous post you explicitly said that you could not get all of the best gear without participating in ALL spheres, one of which is raiding.

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Lets seperate what you keep ramming together. "A complete set" vs. ALL
There is enough gear to comprise MANY complete sets. It is WELL possible to get an end game complete set without raiding. It is impossible to get ALL end game gear without raiding or buying a peice that was raided etc. Which is what Brad said but you manage to continually botch up. Do you get it now or does this basic concept still float past you?

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There is enough gear to compromise many sets of gear that are inferior to the best set of gear. It is, however, impossible to get a complete set of the best gear without raiding, as I said before. I am not "ramming" things together, I am using multiple words to express a specific meaning. Do you get it now or does this basic concept still float past you?

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If you want to call second-rate gear "top tier" then that's fine and dandy, but it's also fair for people to point it out when you do.

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Second rate is non end game.

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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=second-rate&x=0&y=0

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Feel free to keep trying to put words in other people's mouths but don't be upset when we repeatedly correct you.

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I am not putting words in your mouth, I am using words by their normal definitions instead of by the arbitrary and unusual definitions that you're trying to use.

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe

The biggest obstacle vanguard has to pass to get some good pr and to generate some positive interest from most mmorpg players, its the Vanguard community.

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Unfortunately the problem is not the comunity, but the game itself.

Vanguard has been designed from the beginning for the EQ nostalgics.
I know that because I was one of the first to sign for the ofiicial forums, and I followed the developement of the Vanguard comunity for all those years.
The reason why there are so many EQ followers on the board is the fact that Brad vision was exactly what this audiance was looking for.

It wasn't the people telling Sigil what to do as you might think, but it was Sigil who was describing their future game exactly like the veteran fanbase wanted it.
You can't blame those people for complaining about the "new" people who came last and want to change everything, making it more casual friendly, because Vanguard was their dream game and the "invaders" were trying to rob them from their creature.
That's why you read lots of "Go and play WOW" or "this game is not for you". Because it is true, this game won't be for the majority of the "new" people who joined the forums.

The reason why most people is disappointed about the Beta is because of this reason, the game has not being designed for them. They don't understand the game as it is.
When the game will be released, the majority of the "new" fanbase will be disappointed and will leave, whilst the old EQ veterans will stay.
Mark my word.

So it's not the community fault, the problem is the game itself which is designed for a certain audience.
You will see that.

There is a simple test to do in order to understand if Vanguard is the game for you:

Will you play a game who is less casual than EQ2, where leveling is slower and more time consuming, bosses more challenging, no insta travel and with an heavy death penalty?

If the answer is yes, then Vanguard is for you. If the answer is not, go and find another game.
That's the way it is.

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe
Originally posted by ste2000

At the mininum sign of dissent in the forums, i see posters writing pearls of wisdom such as the ones i quoted before, the "go back to WoW" is the most common, if this is what i can expect from my fellow vanguard players once i buy the game, then ill pass on the whole "omg its 3rd gen mmorpg" thing that sigil is trying to sell me. ;)

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Originally posted by ste2000

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe
Originally posted by ste2000

At the mininum sign of dissent in the forums, i see posters writing pearls of wisdom such as the ones i quoted before, the "go back to WoW" is the most common, if this is what i can expect from my fellow vanguard players once i buy the game, then ill pass on the whole "omg its 3rd gen mmorpg" thing that sigil is trying to sell me. ;)

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I see your point, but one thing I can reassure you is that Vanguard comunity is far away from the L33T generation.
Your experience in the game will be the opposite of the one you experience in the forums.

The answers you get in the forums are partly due to the exasperation of the original comunity which are sick of explaining to people asking for the 10.000.000 time, why Vanguard doesn't drop the Death Penalty.
When you have hundreds of similar threads and you explain to them why this is not possible (because of Brad vision), people just don't bother anymore and answers with stupid lines like "go and play WoW".
But I can assure you that for the first 2 years the "veterans" were more than happy to answer those kind of questions.

The other reasons why you get those kind of answers is because the "veterans" wants to alienate the "new" fans. They don't want people who is continuosly complaining about the game being too hard, to convince the developers to change the game design.
They don't want those kind of people playing Vanguard, because of what happened to EQ and SWG.
Because of the minority of moaners complayining all the time about wanting the games more easy, SoE kinda
met their requasts, upsetting the more traditional players.

What the "veterans" are saying is: "Look, the game is going to have Death Penalty and all this stuff, this is a decision taken by Brad MCQuaid 4 years ago, not by the comunity. If you like the "Vision" you are welcome, if you don't stop moaning, go and find a game which suit you best".
You can't really argue with that.

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe

Point taken, i just dont want to see Vanguard turn into another EverRaid, when you look back at how EQ1 developed, you can see that these same types are the ones that always preasured the development team to ever increase the raiding content and the "hardcore" elements, untill the only people that could actualy play the game were those that had no social life outside the game.I will buy and play vanguard for sure, but i dread any sign of sigil distancing themselfs from the 20% raid content mark they advertise, and take the easy way out and put out raid content as easy expansions/content patches.

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i think that is a legitimate concern, if sigil did make it more raid-centric in the future i think alot of people will be pissed and rightfully so.

but all we can do is take brads word that it will only be 20% of the endgame content. if it turns out to be a lie and more raid content starts being developed post launch, overshadowing any small group content...then i assume alot of us will be looking for a new game to play.

personally i don't let things like that bother me, if they do something to make the game unfun for me ill quit....if i don't like the game to begin with i wont play, its not really a big deal to me....but that is just me.