Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Forum » General Discussion » This game did not need to be made

This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest. We don't need another one. If you are going to make a MMORPG , make something new. Don't just make the exact same game over again.

I've given up on MMORPG's going to the next level. The only ones with the guts to to that are the small companies that can't pull it off. But at least make something new!

I suppose the die hard EQ fans will like it. it will be like another expansion pack to them. But most of us want something new. ANd we aren't gonna get it.

Okay, but EverQuest is old and EverQuest 2 is... well, nevermind, let's say it doesn't appeal to that many people. You got a point though, it's always a "pleasure" to see how every online roleplaying game tries to be original.

---

Originally posted by ghoul31

This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest.

I stopped reading there because while Vanguard is very similiar it's also quite different.  You have your opinion and others have theirs. 

Besides,  EverQuest is too old for most new players to enjoy.  It's a "been there, done that" scene and most people are max level.

I think this game ABSOLUTELY needed to be made. I am a 6 year vet of Everquest and to this day, nothing is as intriguing, thought out, and detailed on soooo many levels as EQ. I can't tell you how many hours i played in total amazement of community, content and the whole world settings. Sure graphics wasn't the top of the line but everything taken in it was simply the best.

On the other hand, I grew more and more tired of EQ with all the expansions, economy inflation and hard core take over type players. I am now 1 year removed from all games for this reason. Brad had it right when he helped design EQ at it's origin. Oh, how I long for that type of gameplay. EQ, WoW, EQ2, GW, DaoC and others I have played and not one compares to the old EQ as far as ease to learn and play/ group to easy manuvering to scences....Hell I even missed the "long" boat rides cause I felt it added more realism to the game.  With that being said, Brad McQuaid...not sure on spelling... made the greatest game I ever played until he left and corporate guru's took over and over simplified it. What took us 2 months to achieve, now can be done in a few hours, didn't set right with a lot of people. Since Brad is on board with this new masterpiece, I will be coming out of "retirement" to play his lastest creation.

This game is DEFINATELY needed.

---

Originally posted by zethcarn

---

Originally posted by ghoul31

This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest.

I stopped reading there because while Vanguard is very similiar it's also quite different.  You have your opinion and others have theirs. 

---

---

That.. and its also easier to block your ears and say "la la la la la" when someones opinion conflicts with yours.

This game is going to be exactly like everquest, if not for the gameplay, jsut for the community.

---

Originally posted by ghoul31
This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest. We don't need another one. If you are going to make a MMORPG , make something new. Don't just make the exact same game over again.
I've given up on MMORPG's going to the next level. The only ones with the guts to to that are the small companies that can't pull it off. But at least make something new!
I suppose the die hard EQ fans will like it. it will be like another expansion pack to them. But most of us want something new. ANd we aren't gonna get it.

---

okay good luck with those new games being developed by small companies , meanwhile i will play a game that has the proper funding and development team to actually make a game that is enjoyable for me.

also go talk to all the wow fanboi's about what "most of us" want, seems "most of us" don't want something completely new. and it also seems like some of us do want a game like vanguard, at least judging by all the registered members on their forums as well as all the attention it gets.

---

Originally posted by Coronatus

Okay, but EverQuest is old and EverQuest 2 is... well, nevermind, let's say it doesn't appeal to that many people. You got a point though, it's always a "pleasure" to see how every online roleplaying game tries to be original.

---

Good luck to appeal to EQ players.  See, they aren't going to leave a game that is healthy, with tons of expansions and expansions to come, just for a new game.  This is not going to happen.  We are talking of peoples who invest soooo much in a game, they will not quit EQ for anything, just forget it.  And if somehow they quit, they will want a break, nothing serious...they will want to do something else...and old EQ will throw expansion to ADD on what they already did completely crushing any serious competition...a new game can't compete with these players interest, unless it is casual-driven.

EDIT: FoH and AL are NOT EQ players anymore and they are not long term players, they where short-term, all for the instant glory, so if you want to bring stuff, try to tell me that TR, CD or any  guild still going on will consider a new game, it is just not going to happen!  I don't see TR nor CD nor any serious EQ guild leaving the game, you get most of the support from sites of dead-guilds, peoples who move to WoW and cannot master it and now consider other games.

---

Originally posted by ghoul31

This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest. We don't need another one. If you are going to make a MMORPG , make something new. Don't just make the exact same game over again.

I've given up on MMORPG's going to the next level. The only ones with the guts to to that are the small companies that can't pull it off. But at least make something new!

I suppose the die hard EQ fans will like it. it will be like another expansion pack to them. But most of us want something new. ANd we aren't gonna get it.

---

---

Originally posted by ghoul31

This is just an exact Everquest copy. We already have Everquest. We don't need another one. If you are going to make a MMORPG , make something new. Don't just make the exact same game over again.

I've given up on MMORPG's going to the next level. The only ones with the guts to to that are the small companies that can't pull it off. But at least make something new!

I suppose the die hard EQ fans will like it. it will be like another expansion pack to them. But most of us want something new. ANd we aren't gonna get it.

---

If there is a problem with Vanguard its not that the game is a clone but that its to different and trying to do to much.  Vanguard is trying to many novel and different features.  Its about as far from a cookie cuter game as one can get. 

Just take a look at the features that Vanguard is trying to implement.  An evolutionary and innovative combat system that they claim will place a high emphasis on idividual and group skill, an endgame not focused or raiding or where raiders do not get the best rewards, a dynamic death penalty that changes in regards to what mobs one is fighting, Player built cities, housing, and boats, an attempt to make communities and reputation matter once again in MMORPGs, a weather system that has an effect upon spells, fighting and boat speed,  player cities that will have their health effected by the work of its crafters and diplomats, diplomacy where one can engage in a battle of wits with npcs rather than physical combat, a world that promises to be on of the biggest and largest ever released, a return to slow leveling where your level actually has meaning and everyone in the world will not be at max level a month after release, crafting that they claim will require actual thought not just spamming a button, a return to huge dungeons that Sigil claims will take weeks to explore, and  an attempt to make a game not for the masses but for experienced gamers.

This game is not a copycat game.  Far from it.  There is nothing close to it that has ever been made.  The biggest problem I see with Vanguard is that its not a copycat game.  They may be trying to do to much and the overall quality of the game may end up sufferrering because of spreading their efforts over to many features.  This game may very well fail but its certainly not a clone or copycat game.

Okay, but EverQuest is old and EverQuest 2 is... well, nevermind, let's say it doesn't appeal to that many people

The problem with these two games nowadays is they are very uncompelling to play. You "struggle" through level after level and all you have to look forward to is.......another level. Maybe a raid if you are into that sort of thing.

No driving story, purpose or reason to play. Also it doesn't create a virtual world environment so it chokes off that drive. They are both linear levelers with progressive challange zones or areas. WoW builds on this also although not as apparent. EQ was a pioneer game as it was one of the first MMO's so thats cool. But as EQ2 was released, the expectations of the players had changed. Players don't want to just "level" for the sake of "leveling" anymore. There needs to be some sort of drive. Right now most devs have opted for making players target endgame because that the easiest thing to do. (design wise, all you need to focus on and give real attention on is the last level)

Vanguard appears to have lots of "neat" features.

The real question is...will it be any fun to play or will it just be grind for the sake of grinding like most other MMO's?

---

Originally posted by ghoul31
...I suppose the die hard EQ fans will like it. it will be like another expansion pack to them. But most of us want something new. ANd we aren't gonna get it.

---

Just my 2¢.

---

Originally posted by Torak
...

---

dude, your post count right now is "1234" that's just funny.

---

Originally posted by ghoul31

The few things that are new in Vanguard, could have just been added to eq, Instead of making the whole game over again and adding a few things in.

---

I would strongly disagree with you.  Vanguard is almost completely different and unlike any game seen before.  If you look at my previous post (posted again below for you) in this thread you will see the vast differences between Vanguard and other games.  You might notice if they wanted to add all these featurees to EQ1 they would have to completely redesign the game and add an entire new world.  But lets say it was the same what would you have against a company making a newer version.  How would that offend you?  What would make you so mad and hatefull because someone would be reproducing a game you hate?  Is someone forcing you to play it?  I am sorry I just don't understand your hatred.  Yes Vanguard may not be the game for you but why the hate.  I personally hope they make games for everyones tastes not just mine.  Don't we all then benefit by everyone being happy.  My apologies if your post was indeed sincere but given your posts here and your apparent bias towards anyone that dislikes Vanguard I can only assume you are here to post spam and ruffle feathers.

Anyway here is a recap of the previous post that you previously refused to read.  I hope it helps clears up some of your misconceptions about the game.

Vanguard is an evolutionary and innovative combat system that they claim will place a high emphasis on individual and group skill, an endgame not focused or raiding or where raiders do not get the best rewards, a dynamic death penalty that changes in regards to what mobs one is fighting, Player built cities, housing, and boats, an attempt to make communities and reputation matter once again in MMORPGs, a weather system that has an effect upon spells, fighting and boat speed,  player cities that will have their health effected by the work of its crafters and diplomats, diplomacy where one can engage in a battle of wits with npcs rather than physical combat, a world that promises to be on of the biggest and largest ever released, a return to slow leveling where your level actually has meaning and everyone in the world will not be at max level a month after release, crafting that they claim will require actual thought not just spamming a button, a return to huge dungeons that Sigil claims will take weeks to explore, and  an attempt to make a game not for the masses but for experienced gamers.

This game is not a copycat game.  Far from it.  There is nothing close to it that has ever been made.

Vanguard is very close to a ground breaking game.  It's problem may be not that it does to little but rather that it is trying to do to much.  I understand you may not know much about Vanguard and that people have a tendency to stereotypye Vanguard as they do other games.  But you might want consider doing a little research before starting a thread without knowing anything about the game you are discussing.

For a good discussion on what makes Vanguard good you might want to check out the following thread.  http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1368398&postcount=7

For more information about Vanguard I would suggest you take a look at the following link.  That way if you want to bash it at least you can appear to have some knowledge of what your discussing. http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53263

Since its not your money being spent to make the game - why do you care?

If you want something different - take a look at Hero's Journey and Tabula Rasa.

I honestly don't see how people can say it's NOT going to be different. I've played EQ1 and EQ2 and I found that EQ2 was just a nerfed version of EQ1. However, I do believe that Vanguard is going to be something new..

I fully agree with Zippy and I am glad he/she made the post that he/she did. Just read that.. over and over again, if you think Vanguard isn't going to be different. Those are all facts there, the proof is in the pudding, and I think most of you are blind when you say Vanguard wont be different... blind or ignorant, or just.. a hater.

---

Originally posted by Cheesecake

I honestly don't see how people can say it's NOT going to be different. I've played EQ1 and EQ2 and I found that EQ2 was just a nerfed version of EQ1. However, I do believe that Vanguard is going to be something new..

I fully agree with Zippy and I am glad he/she made the post that he/she did. Just read that.. over and over again, if you think Vanguard isn't going to be different. Those are all facts there, the proof is in the pudding, and I think most of you are blind when you say Vanguard wont be different... blind or ignorant, or just.. a hater.

---

Nice post.  The problem is so many people stereotype games and then refuse to budge from their preconcieved ideas.  Look at Dimaryp he refuses to even notice that Vanguards endgame is not about raiding.  But its not just haters that refuse to actually look at whats going in Vanguards development its a lot of the hardcore fans as well.  Many of the hardcore fans may be sorely dissapointed when they relaize that Vangaurd's philosphy is much more inclusive and is attempting to cater to all play styles whther its solo, single group, raid, crafting or diplomacy, casual or hardcore.  There is something in the design for everone here and no play style is favored above others (except single group play which ahs the majority of content and rewards).  One can obtain some of the best loot in the game in solo/casual dungeons just as they can in raid dungeons.  The death penalty is made for hardcore players who want extreme pain and casual players who want no pain.

Brad has said time and time again this game is not for the hardcore but for all play styles.  The hardcore EQ1 fans often refuse to believe him and the haters refuse to believe him as well.  Quite ironic.  But what is becoming quite evident as they release more and more new information is that this game is not for just hardcore players but designed to reward all play styles.  The new endgame loot policy and dynamic death really tell us a lot of what they are trying to achieve here.  Can they do this and make everyone happy.  Probably not but it will be interesting to see how it works out.  I have always believed that one cannot make everyone happy in a game design.  But what impresses me most about the endgame loot policy and the dynamic death penalty is it reaches out and rewards all play styles without dumbing down the game.  This I never thought would be possible.  But again I suspect implementing these systems will be much harder in practice than theory.

All this being said Vanguard is not for everyone and there is no sin in disliking Vanguard.  What I think many of us have a problem with is when people come here without any game knowledge just to put the game down. They repeate falsehoods and steretypical depictions of what they think Vanguard is like without any idea of what they are actually talking about.  There are many many legitimate reasons to doubt Vanguard and believe it will fail but almost every negative post here fails to address those reasons and rather hinges their arguments on faulty facts that been shaped from some warped stereotyped view of what they think vanguard will be rather than what Vanguard is actually planned to be.

Even if it is a complete EQ copy...

It'll be EQ with planning and strategy for the long haul. Poor planning is what ruined EQ.

Zippy give it a break, you sound like a broken record reciting the same V:SoH drival over and over. Didn't you learn from Deceit and Lie that it is all hype and no substance. Vanguard will be the same.

BTW sources say that they hit 600+ people online this weekend, not bad for Alpha 3 oops my bad, Beta 3 with thousands of invites. I never knew that 600 people could support an MMORPG and keep it afloat. Guess they are planning on charging $159.99 / month to play so they need less people.

---

Originally posted by Gnomad

Zippy give it a break, you sound like a broken record reciting the same V:SoH drival over and over. Didn't you learn from Deceit and Lie that it is all hype and no substance. Vanguard will be the same.

BTW sources say that they hit 600+ people online this weekend, not bad for Alpha 3 oops my bad, Beta 3 with thousands of invites. I never knew that 600 people could support an MMORPG and keep it afloat. Guess they are planning on charging $159.99 / month to play so they need less people.

---

Usually, prime time means that there's about 10% - 15%  of the population logging on at the same time. 600 people online means there's about 5000 total active accounts (actively playing)

So...lets see. 3500 invites sent out prior to Beta 3. They've sent out an average of 400 invites a day since August 11th means they've sent out about 4000 invites since they started Beta 3. Sooooo, there are rougly 7500 possible active accounts.

We're looking at 2/3 of the invites that have been sent out that are being used. That's damned good for Beta, if I'm not mistaken.

---

Originally posted by Gnomad

Zippy give it a break, you sound like a broken record reciting the same V:SoH drival over and over. Didn't you learn from Deceit and Lie that it is all hype and no substance. Vanguard will be the same.

BTW sources say that they hit 600+ people online this weekend, not bad for Alpha 3 oops my bad, Beta 3 with thousands of invites. I never knew that 600 people could support an MMORPG and keep it afloat. Guess they are planning on charging $159.99 / month to play so they need less people.

---

Show me where I am wrong.  The problem is you haters cannot show that trhe design of vanguard is any different than I laid out and that it does not fit the stereotyoe the haters atre trying to paint for this game.  My post simply laid out how Vanguard's design is different from any other game out there.  Did I say Sigil could do it.  Do I admit I have serious doubts, yes.  All my post is doing is correcting misinformation being spread by the haters.  The haters here do not argue they just spread misinformation that is wrong about a game they know little to nothing about.  My post was an attempt to educate them and correct their mistakes not to persuade them to like vanguard.

While I am a fanboy I have no problem bashing Vanguard.  Just please bash Vanguard for legitimate reasons and there are plenty of leitimate reasons not made up reasons.  Unfortuntaley the haters have never learned enough about this game to actually express legitimate concerns about its development.  There is a difference between spam and discussion.  Most of the soe haters do not engage in discussion but rather a spam of misinformation.  I m not saying you do this as I don't know enough about your posts.  But if you see a point where you think I am wrong or if you think the games design is somehow different than what I have said please  articulate that.  It is much easier to attack me personally as you have done above than to write a reasoned argument.

Oh and nice job Vengeful pointing out that 600  concurrent beta testers means something close to 5k active players.  I am very glad to hear that people are liking and enjoying beta 3.

---

Originally posted by Zippy

---

Oh and nice job Vengeful pointing out that 600  concurrent beta testers means something close to 5k active players.  Glad to hear that people are liking and enjoying beta 3.

---

Lol give it time, they just got in. It happened with every new batch, numbers would spike then 1-2 weeks later it was back to 60-100 prime time.

If on the other hand they can retain some of those being invited, than perhaps they resolved some of the issues driving people away. Either that or they found a batch of people to test under harsh conditions with little fun.