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Originally posted by Caliss

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Originally posted by dink

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 For adults who have about 10-20 hours/week of free-time, a death penalty that steals 3 of those hours is intolerable.

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Speak for yourself please. This is your opinion, don't think everybody share the same vision. I do think that if you want to take the risk from time to time and that you have the penalty, it's a reasonable system. As a casual you may not want to take risk of penalty all the time but then maybe you can be in the mood at some points and then this game will allow it. On the contrary i find their system clever. Not in the mood of having a great penalty ? ok today i'm not taking the risk but can still have fun ... in the mood for more adventure than usual ? let's go deep in this dungeon see if i can beat this challenge and let's be prepared to pay it if i suck. I like it.

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My thoughts exactly! Well said, Caliss. 

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Originally posted by Anofalye

What you fail to understand, an amount of lives per month would affect less than 10% of the player base, which would be peoples like you and me.  The average player would never get anywhere close to it.  For one, I rather think toward other players desires than my own...and I would really love such a challenge myself.

With the amount of times I did play old EQ, I would be affected by this lives per month, it would be a constant concern, something to work around.  You as well.  But all my RL friends that did play EQ, none of them would be affected by it.  Nope, not even 1 of them.  They just don't play enough and they just all care a LOT about losing XP/DEBT.

It all come down to choices, to which player base you are catering to, having an INCREMENTAL system favor peoples with lot of time, just like me, at the expense of casuals and peoples with less time...it also favor uber guilds.  Really, when a dev say the game focus on casuals, you shouldn't have a death system that favor peoples with TONS of time at the expanse of the peoples with less time.  That is my opinion, and I am right.  Argue all you want. 

FREEDOM:  LOL, that is the worst lie, there is NO freedom in a game where if you want to be the best grouper, you have to raid, solo, group and tradeskill, there is absolutely no freedom, this is a predetermined path and everyone will remember the activity they despite the most.

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-_-

I think you're missing something.

There will be Soloable mobs, casual named mobs with high threat levels that drop awesome or close to awesome gear. These Casual Players will be able to confront these mobs on their own time.

Additionally, players may play casually after work for an hour and a half, and experience small death penalties that consume little or no time. And, they can play on the weekend, while their spouse is out of time and they are shirking their yard work, run a dungeons for 4 or 5 hours and recieve comperable loot.

Conversely, the ones that are going for the highest threat mobs all the time, are going to be experiencing much harsher death penalties (by an order of magnitude) and will thusly have more roadblocks ahead of them.

It is about risk versus reward for all time commitment and play styles. If you want better or the best you have to risk more, if you don't want to risk more then your options are limited. And really, you have the freedom to choose what type of penalties you are subjecting yourself to EVERY TIME YOU PLAY by choosing what creatures/quests/dungeons you are participating in.

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Originally posted by renfeld

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Originally posted by dink

That means that EVERYONE will want the high risk mobs because they want the high risk loot.

Sounds to me like you're assuming everyone thinks (and plays) like you do. My playstyle is pretty conservative. When my healer sees a big, scary dragon, he say, quaveringly, "Um... guys...? Maybe we should just go back to town." which is completely in his character. Does he have any uber-gear? No way. But that's not why he's there, either. Not everyone is interested in high-risk, adrenaline-pumping, daring feats of legend. But that doesn't mean those people aren't part of the community.

-Ren

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You see, but Dink, Jonaku, and some of the other nay-sayers don't understand that not everyone is a power gamer. Some, perhaps many are.

I'm a min-maxer, always have been...can't keep myself from playing by the numbers, it makes me happy. In my DnD 3.5 Ed game I'm playing with my friends, I have a sissy ass Bard that can hit with his rapier (Damage Range of 1-6 + Modifiers) for 40 points Non Crit at level 7, with gear comparable to his level. It's all in the planning, really...

But... I mean...whose fault is it if you can't just allow yourself to enjoy a game and not worry about being the absolute best absolutely all the time. It's not the Devs fault, I'll tell you that much.

The only people who fear/ hate this game are the people who don't understand it, or of of course the people who are *paid* to troll forums to destroy competition... (sad but true)

Anyone who is sane, or not paid, would have looked at this, shrugged and moved on and not even bothered with these forumsy... the fact that some people 'care' so much about something they will *never play* speaks volumes.

To iillicite either a strong attack or a strong defense means that the parties involved have a vested interest.

yes?

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Originally posted by vesavius

The only people who fear/ hate this game are the people who don't understand it, or of of course the people who are *paid* to troll forums to destroy competition... (sad but true)

Anyone who is sane, or not paid, would have looked at this, shrugged and moved on and not even bothered with these forumsy... the fact that some people 'care' so much about something they will *never play* speaks volumes.

To iillicite either a strong attack or a strong defense means that the parties involved have a vested interest.

yes?

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No.

A player may just HOPE a LOT.  I honestly think Vanguard would make such a great game, as long as there is non-raiding servers.  My interest is about gaining a wonderful gaming experience.  You can disagree, hate me, think I should go elsewhere, but I will still check the most promising titles and pinpoint any critical flaws they have, like enforced raiding.

However, I do believe that BioWare will save me, in a few years!   I just hope I won't have only CoV to call a good MMO until then, and yes, if Vanguard would freaking stop it raiding nonsense, it would indeed be a very good game...but with raiding it is a nightmare and it value decrease to 0.

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Originally posted by Vengeful

-_-

I think you're missing something.

There will be Soloable mobs, casual named mobs with high threat levels that drop awesome or close to awesome gear. These Casual Players will be able to confront these mobs on their own time.

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All this is pointless, completely wasted.  Underdog no thanks.

Best groupers deserve to be groupers, not raiders.  I am adamant about it, because raiders are just unworthy of any non-raiding reward since they are not doing these activities while they raid.

But just like a ganker requesting best loot in a PvP zone, you think it is right that raiders are the best at everything, so raiding is supreme and at the expanse of everything else.

As long as raiding grant 1 hp I can't access anywhere else and that this hp can be useful in grouping, this is unfair and unacceptable, period.  Best groupers have to earn everything by grouping, not raiding or tradeskilling.  End of discussion.

EDIT: I can't accept playing on a raiding server anymore than I would accept playing on a PvP server, these are harmful gameplays to what I love, which is PvE grouping.  Yet, for some reason you understand that PvP ruins PvE, but you seem to be freaking incapable of understanding that raiding is just as freaking bad on grouping as PvP is.  Raiding KILL grouping.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by vesavius

The only people who fear/ hate this game are the people who don't understand it, or of of course the people who are *paid* to troll forums to destroy competition... (sad but true)

Anyone who is sane, or not paid, would have looked at this, shrugged and moved on and not even bothered with these forumsy... the fact that some people 'care' so much about something they will *never play* speaks volumes.

To iillicite either a strong attack or a strong defense means that the parties involved have a vested interest.

yes?

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No.

A player may just HOPE a LOT.  I honestly think Vanguard would make such a great game, as long as there is non-raiding servers.  My interest is about gaining a wonderful gaming experience.  You can disagree, hate me, think I should go elsewhere, but I will still check the most promising titles and pinpoint any critical flaws they have, like enforced raiding.

However, I do believe that BioWare will save me, in a few years!   I just hope I won't have only CoV to call a good MMO until then, and yes, if Vanguard would freaking stop it raiding nonsense, it would indeed be a very good game...but with raiding it is a nightmare and it value decrease to 0.

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for a start, i don't hate anyone online, 'cause thats just silly...

secondly, i also love Bioware. they have made some great single palyer games and the sooner they produce a MMORPG with the same philosophy the better.

thirdly, CoV is a good *arcade* game that happens to be a persistant world.

Fourthy, why are you scared of competition? Just because you personally cannot compete, does that mean everyone else should be restricted by your play style or times?

'core' is not the same as 'hardcore'.

this game is for those who want more then 8 year old/ casaul gamer crap. You don't have to like it, but what do gain by flaming it? Honest critisicism is fine, but hate posts for a game you will never invest in is stupid.

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Originally posted by vesavius

for a start, i don't hate anyone online, 'cause thats just silly...

secondly, i also love Bioware. they have made some great single palyer games and the sooner they produce a MMORPG with the same philosophy the better.

thirdly, CoV is a good *arcade* game that happens to be a persistant world.

Fourthy, why are you scared of competition? Just because you personally cannot compete, does that mean everyone else should be restricted by your play style or times?

'core' is not the same as 'hardcore'.

this game is for those who want more then 8 year old/ casaul gamer crap. You don't have to like it, but what do gain by flaming it? Honest critisicism is fine, but hate posts for a game you will never invest in is stupid.

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Remove raiding and I would love it.

Because I don't want to raid I am 8 year old or casual?  Afterlife is mostly crowded by casuals, so was FoH.  They just have tons of time, casuals nonetheless, following a few real dedicated leader, that is all.

I am not scared of competition, I want a good game with 0 raiding enforced on me, and since all these devs seem unable to understand, I try to explain on the FEW who might be able to.  But I doubt it.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by vesavius

for a start, i don't hate anyone online, 'cause thats just silly...

secondly, i also love Bioware. they have made some great single palyer games and the sooner they produce a MMORPG with the same philosophy the better.

thirdly, CoV is a good *arcade* game that happens to be a persistant world.

Fourthy, why are you scared of competition? Just because you personally cannot compete, does that mean everyone else should be restricted by your play style or times?

'core' is not the same as 'hardcore'.

this game is for those who want more then 8 year old/ casaul gamer crap. You don't have to like it, but what do gain by flaming it? Honest critisicism is fine, but hate posts for a game you will never invest in is stupid.

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Remove raiding and I would love it.

Because I don't want to raid I am 8 year old or casual?  Get lost!

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I have enjoyed *many* *many* games without being in the top 20% of raiders... why? because I have formed strong social networks and relationships that have made the games that you hate fun. I don't define Vangaurd by raiding, i define it by risk and reward, and, not by least, the people.

the point you are reallly miising is that it really dosent matter if *you* love it or not... you are pretty much irrelevant to be honest. This simply isnt for you... This is for people who want something better then the WoW model. I am sick of the NCsoft/ WoW McDonalds lowest comman denominator MMO Porn approach. 

Like I have said before, i am *proud* to support a company that needs to make a game on the basis that they would love to play it themselves rather then to make a huge profit...

and no... i am not gonna get lost... that also is just silly and has no value.

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Originally posted by vesavius

the point you are reallly miising is that it really dosent matter if *you* love it or not... you are pretty much irrelevant to be honest. This simply isnt for you... This is for people who want something better then the WoW model. I am sick of the NCsoft/ WoW McDonalds lowest comman denominator MMO Porn approach. 

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LOL, WOW, VANGUARD and CoH have 1 point in comon: They enforce raiding.

I might be irrelevant and you might not care, but I can freely speak my mind and say it loud.

RAIDING kills grouping.

Talk your chinese philosophy of life as much as you want, for real peoples with real objectives:

RAIDING kill grouping.

EDIT: Everyone has a right to DREAM to reach the top, the fact they reach it or not is irrelevant, they dream they can.

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Originally posted by vesavius

The only people who fear/ hate this game are the people who don't understand it, or of of course the people who are *paid* to troll forums to destroy competition... (sad but true)

Anyone who is sane, or not paid, would have looked at this, shrugged and moved on and not even bothered with these forumsy... the fact that some people 'care' so much about something they will *never play* speaks volumes.

To iillicite either a strong attack or a strong defense means that the parties involved have a vested interest.

yes?

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Vesavius,

You are systematically answering every post about Vanguard, old and new, all of a sudden.  Your account is created back in 2004 and you have a total of 22 posts.

Yet you come accusing other peoples of having a vested interest in the game?  No company would afford nearly 4k posts of advertisement, it would just not be marketing wise and better spent on banners.  LOL, if someone has a vested interest in the game, I think you are.

We are a friday night, so you prolly come back from work and are now answering messages, community work it must be.

If someone on this site has a vested interest and is not a gamer, it is YOU sir.  I think you pretty much describe yourself as the person having vested interest in making money rather than making a FUN game.  Under a cool looking demeanor, you are offensive and aggresive toward other peoples.

Suit yourself, I know you are like a ghost, here today, but not back before a LONG time, maybe your take turns on answering online forums?

As to myself, I become a Game Designer in some tiny small company that will never grow big enough to make MMOs.  I may even add that I become a Game Designer because the Vision(tm) anger me.  Talk about dedication and be shy about it if you want!  Me, I will just drink beer in the meanwhile! 

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by vesavius

the point you are reallly miising is that it really dosent matter if *you* love it or not... you are pretty much irrelevant to be honest. This simply isnt for you... This is for people who want something better then the WoW model. I am sick of the NCsoft/ WoW McDonalds lowest comman denominator MMO Porn approach. 

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okies... for one, shouting dosent make your point any kore vaild or heard yes?

LOL, WOW, VANGUARD and CoH have 1 point in comon: They enforce raiding.

One point in common dosent define a game or indeed make them similar... EQ1 and WoW have many many points in common, but that isnt the point i am making... You don't see this? 'lol'?

I might be irrelevant and you might not care, but I can freely speak my mind and say it loud.

you are indeed free to do both, I am noone to stop you, but I wonder why you would bother...

RAIDING kills grouping.

then don't play... why waste your time discussing a game you 'know' already you will hate? Take a deep breath and move on.

Talk your chinese philosophy of life as much as you want, for real peoples with real objectives:

if your don't agree, it's easier to use worthless catch phrases then actually validating your views yes?

RAIDING kill grouping.

in your unfounded (as far as you have 'proven' to my eyes...) silly opinion, but not in my personal experience. To debate this with you would be wortheless, simply because you have a set in stone opinion that I am not gonna shift whatever...

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by Anofalye

okies... for one, shouting dosent make your point any kore vaild or heard yes?

Agrressive and nasty will help you make your point with a 100% accuracy.

LOL, WOW, VANGUARD and CoH have 1 point in comon: They enforce raiding.

One point in common dosent define a game or indeed make them similar... EQ1 and WoW have many many points in common, but that isnt the point i am making... You don't see this? 'lol'?

Add EQ1 and EQ2 to the list, they all enforce raiding.  I think it is YOU that doesn't see this point.

I might be irrelevant and you might not care, but I can freely speak my mind and say it loud.

you are indeed free to do both, I am noone to stop you, but I wonder why you would bother...

Because I see the potential for FUN, yet all MMOs come and enfoce raiding, there will be a good MMO somewhere that won't enforce raiding, eventually, until that time I am trapped.

RAIDING kills grouping.

then don't play... why waste your time discussing a game you 'know' already you will hate? Take a deep breath and move on.

Name me 1 MMO that doesn't enforce raiding or PvP.

Talk your chinese philosophy of life as much as you want, for real peoples with real objectives:

if your don't agree, it's easier to use worthless catch phrases then actually validating your views yes?

You say some vague stuff about not been in the top 20% players, but the fact is, most peoples care about THAT, reaching the TOP.  If you are a chinese ying and yang type and doesn't want to be the best good for you, I am not above that, I want to be the best or at least try, and if been the best mean raiding in all MMOs there is a freaking problem.

RAIDING kill grouping.

in your unfounded (as far as you have 'proven' to my eyes...) silly opinion, but not in my personal experience. To debate this with you would be wortheless, simply because you have a set in stone opinion that I am not gonna shift whatever...

Peoples focus on getting raids worked, abandon group, leave group, doesn't group, they want the best tools, and these are not given inside grouping, but inside raiding, it is killing grouping.  Raiding kills grouping just as badly as PvP enforced on everyone kill PvE.  Differents gameplays, differents logics.  But a GANKER would agree that having all the best loot in PvP is fine and as it should be, like old UO, old school stuff...he will tell you that all PvP safe zones are a nonsense...just as you are telling me that raiding isn't bad on grouping.  But raiding kills grouping.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by Anofalye

okies... for one, shouting dosent make your point any kore vaild or heard yes?

Agrressive and nasty will help you make your point with a 100% accuracy.

LOL, WOW, VANGUARD and CoH have 1 point in comon: They enforce raiding.

One point in common dosent define a game or indeed make them similar... EQ1 and WoW have many many points in common, but that isnt the point i am making... You don't see this? 'lol'?

Add EQ1 and EQ2 to the list, they all enforce raiding.  I think it is YOU that doesn't see this point.

You mean you have a point? Sorry, musta dropped off.

I might be irrelevant and you might not care, but I can freely speak my mind and say it loud.

you are indeed free to do both, I am noone to stop you, but I wonder why you would bother...

Because I see the potential for FUN, yet all MMOs come and enfoce raiding, there will be a good MMO somewhere that won't enforce raiding, eventually, until that time I am trapped.

This game simply won't fill that potentiol for you, that much is obvious, so why labour the point? you have saind your peice... Like I say, time to take a breath and move on. your owrk here is done yes? Simply put, you don't have to ply it... 

RAIDING kills grouping.

then don't play... why waste your time discussing a game you 'know' already you will hate? Take a deep breath and move on.

Name me 1 MMO that doesn't enforce raiding or PvP.

erm... why would I even try? Like I say, if you hate it so much, just don't play... I fail to understand how what you say is a relevant answer to my response.

Talk your chinese philosophy of life as much as you want, for real peoples with real objectives:

if your don't agree, it's easier to use worthless catch phrases then actually validating your views yes?

You say some vague stuff about not been in the top 20% players,

I don't are personally if *i* am in the top 20% of the server... thats not vague... eh?

 but the fact is, most peoples care about THAT, reaching the TOP. 

Thats *their* issue, or should I say *yours*? quit projecting your needs/ wants onto us all.

If you are a chinese ying and yang type and doesn't want to be the best good for you,

yay, *now* your starting to get it!!

 I am not above that, I want to be the best or at least try, and if been the best mean raiding in all MMOs there is a freaking problem.

Bleh... no, it seems you don't...

RAIDING kill grouping.

in your unfounded (as far as you have 'proven' to my eyes...) silly opinion, but not in my personal experience. To debate this with you would be wortheless, simply because you have a set in stone opinion that I am not gonna shift whatever...

Peoples focus on getting raids worked, abandon group, leave group, doesn't group, they want the best tools, and these are not given inside grouping, but inside raiding, it is killing grouping.  Raiding kills grouping just as badly as PvP enforced on everyone kill PvE.  Differents gameplays, differents logics.  But a GANKER would agree that having all the best loot in PvP is fine and as it should be, like old UO, old school stuff...he will tell you that all PvP safe zones are a nonsense...just as you are telling me that raiding isn't bad on grouping.  But raiding kills grouping.

Sorry, was that even English? Less ranting, more objective clear thought and expression please?

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Vesavus got better at taunt(255)!

Insult me, be as arrogant as you want.  I taste something good in EQ.  It was ruined by raiding.  I want more of it.  I wont stop until I find it back.

Move on?  *shrug*  I will, when I find a game to hold my interest, but until then, I am spending time on forums, talking and pinpointing good points and flaws.

Ask your friend Brad, if someone telling him to move on after he experience PvP in online gaming would have satieted him?  It wouldn't.  I don't have the talent to bring out a PvE MMO about grouping, so I do the second most logical step to it, I check for it and I praise it forthcoming if I see it.

Insult my english skills all you want, the fact we are talking in english and not in my native tongue is all that matter now, if you can't grasp what I say, you can blame yourself.  Unless it is the usual elitist attitude to denigrate other that I found in old EQ uber guilds, in which case it would only lessen your opinion to irrelevance.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

Vesavus got better at taunt(255)!

yay! I love skill ups!

Insult me, be as arrogant as you want.  I taste something good in EQ.  It was ruined by raiding.  I want more of it.  I wont stop until I find it back.

This isnt about being arrogant, it's about debating passionate beliefs in something we care about yes? I actually like your search for somthing better, but i just fail to see why attacking a game you will never play will make it come any quicker...

Move on?  *shrug*  I will, when I find a game to hold my interest, but until then, I am spending time on forums, talking and pinpointing good points and flaws.

Like I say, attacking a game that you will never play will *not* make your dream game come on any sooner... If you don't  actually intend of being part of the community, find a game out there that maybe excites you and inspires you to post postitive thoughts, rather then trolling negativity just because you know you will get a knee jerk reaction from people who actually care.

Ask your friend Brad, if someone telling him to move on after he experience PvP in online gaming would have satieted him?  It wouldn't.  I don't have the talent to bring out a PvE MMO about grouping, so I do the second most logical step to it, I check for it and I praise it forthcoming if I see it

*If* he is my friend, it is only because he has actually bothered to personally reply to posts I have made and communicate his dreams and hopes to us all. I can only wish every MMORPG dev took as much care...

Insult my english skills all you want, the fact we are talking in english and not in my native tongue is all that matter now, if you can't grasp what I say, you can blame yourself.  Unless it is the usual elitist attitude to denigrate other that I found in old EQ uber guilds, in which case it would only lessen your opinion to irrelevance.

I am not attacking your english skills as a second language... I am merely stating that I really didnt understand the point you was making... Like I say though, I have never been uber, but I enjoy the games I play nonetheless

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by Anofalye

Vesavus got better at taunt(255)!

yay! I love skill ups!

Insult me, be as arrogant as you want.  I taste something good in EQ.  It was ruined by raiding.  I want more of it.  I wont stop until I find it back.

This isnt about being arrogant, it's about debating passionate beliefs in something we care about yes? I actually like your search for somthing better, but i just fail to see why attacking a game you will never play will make it come any quicker...

But the point is, I am not attacking.  I am telling the good and bad sides when I think it promote what I believe.  You can check the WoW or EQ2 forums, you won't see me there unless I have something to say nice about the game...or unless you check at their release when I buy these and was disappointed by the raiding again.

As to saying I will never play Vanguard you are half true.  I will never play Vanguard as is.  Who are you to say that there will NEVER be a non-raiding server?  I am just an individual myself, but I know I am far from alone to despite raiding and looking forward non-raiding games.

Finally, even if Vanguard never have a non-raiding server, I might put some 2 bits comon sense in a 3rd party listening or even talking here and there...and this would be just as priceless if not even better.

Move on?  *shrug*  I will, when I find a game to hold my interest, but until then, I am spending time on forums, talking and pinpointing good points and flaws.

Like I say, attacking a game that you will never play will *not* make your dream game come on any sooner... If you don't  actually intend of being part of the community, find a game out there that maybe excites you and inspires you to post postitive thoughts, rather then trolling negativity just because you know you will get a knee jerk reaction from people who actually care.

You are accusing me of trolling?  I wasn't talking about raiding.  I was debating, positively, on some other aspect...until YOU show up.

Maybe it is person like you that ruins the good MMOs.  And more talking is indeed in order.

Ask your friend Brad, if someone telling him to move on after he experience PvP in online gaming would have satieted him?  It wouldn't.  I don't have the talent to bring out a PvE MMO about grouping, so I do the second most logical step to it, I check for it and I praise it forthcoming if I see it

*If* he is my friend, it is only because he has actually bothered to personally reply to posts I have made and communicate his dreams and hopes to us all. I can only wish every MMORPG dev took as much care...

Then he is obviously catering to a tiny minority and IMO, the most harmful he could be catering to for his game.

Insult my english skills all you want, the fact we are talking in english and not in my native tongue is all that matter now, if you can't grasp what I say, you can blame yourself.  Unless it is the usual elitist attitude to denigrate other that I found in old EQ uber guilds, in which case it would only lessen your opinion to irrelevance.

I am not attacking your english skills as a second language... I am merely stating that I really didnt understand the point you was making... Like I say though, I have never been uber, but I enjoy the games I play nonetheless

Good for you.  I need to at least DREAM I will be uber, and raiding denying me this dream.  If you can settle with a sub par toon, good for you, but a good part of the community, among the nicest players just can't.  Catering to uberguilds is the worst mistake a dev can do, as most peoples don't want to see raiding enforced on them and rewarded with unique loot, this is unfair and unappealing.

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It's funny watching all the backpedaling on raids when the role of raiding in the game is quite clear. From http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1291339#post1291339 (posted by one of the Vaguarders here):

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The key I think is that while it is true that some of the best (but not all of the best) items will come from raid areas or encounters, the majority of content in the game, from level 1-50, will be centered around grouping and not raiding. If you group to 50, experience crafting and diplomacy, and do some trading/buying/selling, I see no reason why you wouldn't have the majority of items you sought to make your character as powerful as possible, even if you refused to raid. That said, I would encourage you and anyone else to take a Saturday off here and there and try some of the raid content as well, as it can be a blast to experience.

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Brad comes right out and says that some of the best items will come from raids, just like I've been saying on these boards over and over again. If you raid you would have all of the items, if you don't raid you'll be lacking some. Thus, you will clearly be a second class citizen if you don't raid, forever behind the raiders, just as I've said all along. He spins it diffently, but the facts are exactly the ones I've been saying about Vanguard all along. If you don't raid, your gear will be worse than what the raiders have.

If second-rate gear is good enough for you, or if you want to raid, then great. But if you don't want to be second rate and don't want to raid, this game is not for you.

And he even comes right out and says that he thinks everyone should raid, incidentally referring to people who don't desire to raid as 'refusing' to raid, both signs of the 'raiding is king' mentality. To top it all he's also said quite openly that raid rewards will be better than most party rewards. I'm not making this stuff up, I'm quoting this from sites the Vanguardians are linking people to for information.

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591

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34.6. What's your rationale behind making raid rewards better than most party rewards?
I probably should have been more clear and detailed. If one assumes a death penalty like Vanguard's, the deeper into a dungeon you go, the more risk you are taking on. If there are no safe places to break, or really log off, or pick up later the next day and continue on, you are risking a CR probably just as long and potentially more difficult. Likewise, you are involved in what is hopefully challenging combat involving a relatively large group of individuals who each have their own roles and responsibilities. People have jobs to do. There are leaders, sub leaders. Communication is key. There should be lots of opportunity to screw up, and the farther the group goes, the more painful screwing up ought to be.

So that's why I think, if accomplished, it should be thusly rewarded.
Source: Aradune Mithara

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Prepare for a bunch of flames from Vanboys that will fail to show that anything I've said is actually factually wrong.

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Originally posted by Pantastic

Brad comes right out and says that some of the best items will come from raids, just like I've been saying on these boards over and over again. If you raid you would have all of the items, if you don't raid you'll be lacking some. Thus, you will clearly be a second class citizen if you don't raid, forever behind the raiders, just as I've said all along. He spins it diffently, but the facts are exactly the ones I've been saying about Vanguard all along. If you don't raid, your gear will be worse than what the raiders have.

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lol pantastic you are a piece of work, i called you on this in our last "discussion" and you deny in openly saying that i "made it up" in my head, i said..

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your argument is because your not able to get every single piece of gear ever made in the entire game that somehow that makes you "second class" or "worse" than a player that does because they raid.

am i right? even though what has been clearly said is that gear from small grouping will be just as good (meaning the quality is the same) as raid gear.

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then you said..

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No, you're simply wrong, and I've explained this to you before, but you continue to pretend that my argument is something that it isn't. I am not claiming that every piece of gear from a raid will be better than every piece of gear from the other 80% of the game, that's something you've made up. I am not arguing that not being able to get every single variety of item in the game is an issue, that's also something you've made up.

so "If you don't raid, your gear will be worse than what the raiders have." but at the same time you say that "I am not arguing that not being able to get every single variety of item in the game is an issue, that's also something you've made up"

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so witch one is it pantastic? do you believe "If you don't raid, your gear will be worse than what the raiders have"?

or do you believe that " I am not arguing that not being able to get every single variety of item in the game is an issue"?

isn't your argument that not raiding makes you second class? i really am trying to figure out where your coming from because it confuses me.

if you believe that not getting all the items in the game makes you second rate then thats fine, at least i know where your coming from, but you confuse me.....your posts totally lead me to believe thats what you mean but then you say i am playing "word games" and that i make shit up, seems like your are contradicting yourself. *shrugs*

again, if you feel that you need every piece/type of gear in the game to enjoy it but refuse to raid, then yeah vanguard probably isn't for you IMO.

if you think that not raiding to get some of the situational items or some "best items" in the game makes you "second rate" or " your gear will be worse than what the raiders have"

even though you have access to 80% of all the "best items" in the game, then yeah your better off finding a game that has absolutely no raiding at all.

seems kind of silly to be so hell bent on not playing a game because you don't like one aspect of the game, even though it is only 20% of the game content....but to each their own i guess.