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Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Forum » General Discussion » Vanguard Forum Reaction to Criticism
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I will be happy to respond more later but have to head out. I will continue to lurk and try to clear some stuff up, at least as much as I can without breaking the NDA (and yes, devs are under an NDA also). I played the game up to the level cap well before being hired by Sigil so I suppose I have a pretty decent idear about what playing in beta entails :) |
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I clicked the WoW link and yeah the fan art section has a submission from Chalosan! w00t! Thanks jonaku. I wouldn't of ever saw it. http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/fanart/ScreenShot.aspx?ImageIndex=393&Set=0
 I think its his best work yet. You posted something that actually meant something. Now we can finally enjoy something that came from WoW and his good art at the same time.I still don't know why you crusade for people to not play this game. You really shouldn't care about people who 1) you don't know 2) want to play this game and find out for themselves if they like it or not. It really shouldn't be any consern of yours. Its people's lives let them live it for themselves not by you. Siehst du mich |
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/agree It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling. Yes but I agree with you about the silliness of Vanguard and still think you seem to have an unhealthy obession with this topic. For some reason the whole corpse run etc. and the vanbois reaction reminds me of the black knight in MP the Holy Grail. "Its only flesh wound!" |
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It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
i've answered this in several other related threads. too tired to repeat this every time i'm asked. And by the way, you dont walk into someones house and piss on their floor and expect em to have nice things to say to you. there's the rub. the vanbois act as if i'm walking into THEIR house and pissing on THEIR floor. but here's the surprise twist ending: the forums are in fact COMMUNAL PUBLIC spaces. it's neither the hardcore's house nor the casual's house. and that's what is so absurd about vanboi outrage, that they act as if we casuals are imposing onto private property when in fact the vanbois are just squatting in a public park of opinion. Ah but if you piss in public you get arrested. At least that is what happened to my brother. Besides didn't you know the commons is for grazing sheep? If you don't fall in line your not a sheep and there fore shouldn't be in the commons. It all makes perfect sense if you think about it. Its like it like a circle, nice and neat. |
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So what do you expect the vanbois to do? Change their mind to suit your brick wall of an opinion? The purpose of argument is to persuade....even if it is yourself.
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Come on. . . This is way beyond having a few bad apples. Point out one decent reply in that thread? It's a given that high traffic boards and "hardcore" players are going to have hateful posters, but the fact that the immature posters are the majority and not the minority says a lot about the community. Personally, community really doesn't have much at all to do with my enjoyment of a game though, so I don't think this is a very important criticism. Still, it is a fair criticism. |
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I think it's funny that people think that taking the MM out of MMOs is the future of MMOs. Instances can be fun, but look at DDO. You're instanced all the time. The end result is that you don't care about other players, you don't care to help them in any way, and it's all random. I have never had a conversation with anyone in DDO. I can't say the same for SWG, EQ2, WOW, FFXI, or any other MMO i've played. All the points that the user made are things Sigil are supposedly working to prevent. The user doesn't agree and says he won't play the game unless it's changed to be instanced. What are you supposed to say to that? And to be fair about the negatively towards criticism. On one hand, the people are being negative and derogatory. On the other hand, what result could you expect. The person posted "you know, i thought this game woudl be good, but it's going to suck. pity". There's no use in trying to change the person's mind. They've already made it up. They aren't going to play the game. They don't care what the users think. They're posting a flamebait and then they're gone. |
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It's pretty funny that a lot of Vanguard's more controversial game mechanics are rationalized on the basis that they somehow create "community." Yet if anyone posts on their boards, and their opinion deviates an iota from the hardcore, 133t-dood gamer mantra, they flame away like crazy. What kind of "community" is that? Is anyone really believing that the same people who spew hate at every opportunity are going to be fun to be around in game?
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yeah some of the fanboi's are defiantly as you describe but the forum members will not necessarily reflect what the game community Will be like. those people are the vocal minority of all the people that will play vanguard, and there are alot of fans that are not like that on the vanguard forum as well. guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out, but i think because of the mechanics of the game you will be forced to get along with other people and you will need to make alot of friends. on a forum you don't need any of these things, people can be total jackass's and it makes no difference ...and not only that, but the forums are coming down after the game is launched so yeah....i don't think the vanguard forum community will be anything like the game community after launch. |
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Well, I am not defending the people asking you to leave and play WoW, (and I agree to one of the posters that isolating one from WoW is a fashion at the forums there proving ones identity, which is immature also IMO), but I advise you to read your post once more, I don't think that it is a proper way of starting a good discussion and suggestion about a game before the eyes of fanboys in the official forums.
BTW, it is always the flamers and cheerers around sticks to the eye in a forum, there is the great mass not interested in that kind of discussions in the forum threads there |
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I think it's funny that people think that taking the MM out of MMOs is the future of MMOs. I think it's funny that people think having instances takes the M out of MMOs. Seriously, it doesn't remove all the other players and does allow a bit more immersion. You won't run into 5 other groups that race to kill the named you're working towards for your quest or drops. Don't get me wrong having the entire world instanced is not really my thing (and you mentioned DD0, that game fails on all levels not just its instances so you can drop that as a reason) but a mix of both is great. Allowing you to have private adventures with your group/guild or "community" dungeons is a good thing for everyone. |
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But it is the community! It may not be all of the individuals in the community. If you think they are too much of a fan boi and you don't agree with them, you should speak out against them as well. But if you don't and just sit back and let them run the show, then the silent but possible majority are letting them represent you. |
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i am not saying to not express your opinion because of a vocal minority on the vanguard forums, by all means you have the same right to post your opinion just as anybody els. my point is in the rest of my post that you didn't quote, the game mechanics will pretty much force people to get along with each other. when you have to rely on other people for groups and there is such a great emphasis on player interdependence, you cant be a total jackass like that without suffering consequences. witch is a big reason why wow's community is so awful IMO. you don't need anyone els there is virtually no interdependence at all and people can be total douche bags if they want. |
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To the original author, shame on you. It's people like you that have brought the world Everquest II. We don't need anymore games that basically play themselves. Challenge and difficulty are what make great games. The huge success of Everquest and its staying ability proved that long ago. |
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vesavius
 Advanced Member
Joined: 3/08/04
''Get me a beer and money sandwhich. Hold the bread.'' - DR & Quinch |
/nod and /hug |
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Don't worry, when you have a piss poor player base that will be enough of a laugh for me! Everquest had ZERO games to compete with in 3-d and had horrid sunscription rates compared to what they could have, WoW proved it. Brad has a turkey on his hand, and thats all there is to it. |
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The OP was not giving criticism. He was whining, complaining, and being obnoxious. All without even playing the game. It amazes me today what idiots roam the internet. Forums as a rule are worthless.
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vesavius
Advanced Member
Joined: 3/08/04
''Get me a beer and money sandwhich. Hold the bread.'' - DR & Quinch |
Vangaurd *isnt* about being the biggest. It *isnt* about being the best.... It is about a company developing a game that *they* would love to play. It is about the triumph of dedication, passion, and drive. It's about *more* then just $$$. I am very sorry if you cannot understand this, but quality is *not* measured by popularity. end of story really. |
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Anofalye
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
I usually refrain from going over to more than 1 topic in a MMO I am currently not planning on playing. But for someone with a vested interest in Vanguard gracing us with his presence, I will make an exception. Go check Tom Sayer, the cartoon where he convince people that painting his fence was "great" and he then get away without doing his core job, others do it for him. Quality is measure in FREEDOM, not in enforcing a gameplay someone doesn't want. It is extremely funny that Brad choose the word: FREEDOM when it is what is lacking the most in his game. You have to restrict yourself to a class, then find a good group, then progress in levels, then raids and so on. Listening to Afterlife and FoH doesn't qualify as listening to the core of your players. Reality check. - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
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vesavius
Advanced Member
Joined: 3/08/04
''Get me a beer and money sandwhich. Hold the bread.'' - DR & Quinch |
I usually refrain from going over to more than 1 topic in a MMO I am currently not planning on playing. But for someone with a vested interest in Vanguard gracing us with his presence, I will make an exception. Go check Tom Sayer, the cartoon where he convince people that painting his fence was "great" and he then get away without doing his core job, others do it for him. Quality is measure in FREEDOM, not in enforcing a gameplay someone doesn't want. It is extremely funny that Brad choose the word: FREEDOM when it is what is lacking the most in his game. You have to restrict yourself to a class, then find a good group, then progress in levels, then raids and so on. Listening to Afterlife and FoH doesn't qualify as listening to the core of your players. Reality check. this is so silly... how much FREEEEEEDOM do you really expect to have from a MMORPG?? How much FREEEEEEEDOM do you get in a Biroware style RPG? Come to that, how much FREEEEEEEDOOOOMM do you you *really* get in a PnP RPG? vangaurd quite obviously offer a high leel of FRREEEEEEDDDOOOM compared to what is out there right know, but is it perfect? well, no... of course not... If I want true freedom, I personally write a short story, if I play a *co-operative* *shared* world game that is dictated by current technology I except that true freedom just dosent exist. Time to get over it and either buy in or buy out. |
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Anofalye
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
this is so silly... how much FREEEEEEDOM do you really expect to have from a MMORPG?? How much FREEEEEEEDOM do you get in a Biroware style RPG? Come to that, how much FREEEEEEEDOOOOMM do you you *really* get in a PnP RPG? vangaurd quite obviously offer a high leel of FRREEEEEEDDDOOOM compared to what is out there right know, but is it perfect? well, no... of course not... If I want true freedom, I personally write a short story, if I play a *co-operative* *shared* world game that is dictated by current technology I except that true freedom just dosent exist. Time to get over it and either buy in or buy out.
Offering a gameplay that is 100% free of raiding doesn't require much work. LDoN and you are set. Trying to make peoples accept sub par characters is plainly rude, eh, accept it, you are going to lack forever...it is just not acceptable. Peoples are PLAYING. I would be expecting such community enforcement from any french company, cultural thing. But english company, where individuality usually prime, enforcing such community massive amount of whatever? Eh, you know I am right...FREEDOM means that at least, I doesn't have to raid if I want to be the best in groups, that is just a 2 bits comon sense. As to BioWare, you just slip a BIG time. I got TONS of freedom in their GAMES, FAR more than in any MMO. The fact multiplayers is not appealing doesn't cut my freedom, I got TONS of choices, zones to avoid, bypass, missions to do either way, many ending, many quests to do or ignore...FAR more freedom than in any MMO. You seem to think that linear storyline is a lack of freedom, while in fact it limit very little of my freedom, I still got plenty with tons of side quests and ways to do my main quests, choices all the way on the road endlessly. Saying BioWare games have little freedom just show that you are not much a gamer yourself. The abscence of a strong storyline as in EQ isn't freedom, it is lack of content. Not the same. Using Freedom for lack of content is not good. Now old EQ is quite good compare to other MMO content-wise, yet compare to BioWare games, of course it lack content, no shame there...BioWare freaking rules. Freedom and lack of content are 2 very different things, I rather have a very strong "linear" storyline that I may do in anyway I want, with multiples evolutions and multiples sidequest than have nothing but the most basics side quest. BioWare give me a LOT of freedom, I can't wait for them to release their MMO, but it is like 5 years...so I have 5 years to spend in various forums unless some devs understand before it is released. - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
so to you freedom = "a game made just for me!"? so because a game has raiding that means there is less freedom? what the hell is that? that makes zero sense. LDON style of gameplay isn't "freedom" either, sure its what you want but is it really freedom? you are forced to group first of all and not only that it can be a huge grind if there isn't enough of the content. also how many "side quests" or freedom to explore or do what you want are in a system like eq's LDON? none, theres only 4 different types of quests to do and you grind the same ones over and over again, and you call that freedom? Ive said it once and i will say it again, not everyone is a hardcore achiever like you Anofalye....not everyone feels they need to be the best and then refuse to play a game because it isn't made just for them. BTW i have asked you before but never got a response, what are you going to do if the new bioware mmo doesn't live up to your ridiculous standards? what are you going to do if there is *gasp* raiding? |
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Anofalye
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
Having a REAL grouping game is only a basic request from a game that say they focus on GROUPING. Because Vanguard keeps saying that their target audience is GROUPERS. So best loot and best rewards deserve to be achieved by their target audience. Denying their target audience (GROUPERS) from the best loot is silly and a complete lack of freedom. LDoN is merely an example, but even this is freedom, as a grouper can GROUP rather than do some silly non-grouping activity. If they do better than LDoN, sure, why not...see LDoN as a minimum requirement for lazy devs who just want to throw raiding loot in a lazy way, now if they build a better system with more thinking, sure thing. LDoN-distribution style is like allowing a fish to swim, it is freedom. BioWare: Impossible, they are Gods and Gods doesn't do such mistakes. - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
lol, I'm going to hold you to that...for your sake i hope you are right....well for my sake to so i can stop reading all your posts complaining about raiding. haha |
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matraque
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/10/05
If i''m paying a monthly fee, i demand an unfinished game! |
Who played EQ back in the days ? I started playing in beta 3 and stopped with Luclin.
-Read my thoughts on gaming: |
If there is raiding in their game, nobody raiding will gain any benefit that would make a grouper feel backward, it wont be better for grouping. I am pretty confidant that a REAL RPG company understand way past these basics concepts.