Originally posted by Myrdynn

VG's problem to me, is lack of character customization, there is none, zero, zippo.  My Ranger=your ranger

Never understood this complaint about vanguard. Do you mean character look customization ? There are a ton of options here ( more than many a game ).

Or do you mean gear ? 

Or do you mean there are no wow-like talent trees ?

Originally posted by Arclan

Played upon launch; loved it for about a month. Then got utterly sick of it. Played Pirates of the Burning Sea too; same result.

Why? For both games, I spoke to almost no one; and no one spoke to me; no relationships were formed. I also found myself being led around by the nose instead of looking around for myself.

Both problems in both of these games are a result of the quest/task systems. They are the only practical way to level; and after two weeks it becomes obvious how endless and mindless they truly are.

Many claim it was the buggy launch; but that isn't true. A bad launch is a temporary problem. Gameplay that fosters exploration and socialization will retain players and grow.

It should go without saying that this is merely my opinion; it is the reason I have no interest in returning to Vanguard. Why am I here? In the small hope that SOE fixes the problem so that many (including me) can return to the MMO with the best UI and graphics in the industry.

MMOs, by definition, are not supposed to be linear; but both of these games are *very* linear because of the task system.

(little about me). I was a guild leader of a successful guild for years in EQ; had (and still have) hundreds of friends in the game. I did not make one single friend in Vanguard or POBS. This is 100% the fault of the task system. /edit oops I should mention that out of combat regen is also a culprit here; no time to chat; must kill 3 more widgets to finish my task. And since I am FM, why bother to stop swinging long enough to type something other than "incoming."

No players = noone talking.

Pretty simple.

Originally posted by raistlinm

Originally posted by Arclan

Played upon launch; loved it for about a month. Then got utterly sick of it. Played Pirates of the Burning Sea too; same result.

Why? For both games, I spoke to almost no one; and no one spoke to me; no relationships were formed. I also found myself being led around by the nose instead of looking around for myself.

Both problems in both of these games are a result of the quest/task systems. They are the only practical way to level; and after two weeks it becomes obvious how endless and mindless they truly are.

Many claim it was the buggy launch; but that isn't true. A bad launch is a temporary problem. Gameplay that fosters exploration and socialization will retain players and grow.

It should go without saying that this is merely my opinion; it is the reason I have no interest in returning to Vanguard. Why am I here? In the small hope that SOE fixes the problem so that many (including me) can return to the MMO with the best UI and graphics in the industry.

MMOs, by definition, are not supposed to be linear; but both of these games are *very* linear because of the task system.

(little about me). I was a guild leader of a successful guild for years in EQ; had (and still have) hundreds of friends in the game. I did not make one single friend in Vanguard or POBS. This is 100% the fault of the task system.

 I think you are underselling the effects of a bad launch, many people try to say "oh well WOW had problems at launch" and they would be right but most of those problems had to do with the fact that the game was populated beyond Blizzards expectations.

Right now I'm racking my brain to think of a game that is universally accepted to have had a bad launch that didn't end up closed down free to play or highly niche and I haven't been able to think of one yet.

 You illustrated why WoW's horid launch didnt cause them to have a slow painfull death, making excuses for blizzard.

As far as I know memory leaks, pathing issues, falling through the world, graphical glitches and leaks, class ballance, incomplete classes. incomplete and untested class. Buggy skills... I can go on for quite some time but , the server stability due amounth of players was just one of the smaller issues.

Originally posted by allegria

Originally posted by Myrdynn

VG's problem to me, is lack of character customization, there is none, zero, zippo.  My Ranger=your ranger

Never understood this complaint about vanguard. Do you mean character look customization ? There are a ton of options here ( more than many a game ).

Or do you mean gear ? 

Or do you mean there are no wow-like talent trees ?

 

well for 1 games existed before wow.

I personally dont care if my character looks the same as all others.  I like games with a skill progression or even a talent tree, or AA system.  Something so that I can customize my character someway

Gear is the only character progression that VG has to offer

Originally posted by Paithan

Originally posted by raistlinm

Originally posted by Arclan

Played upon launch; loved it for about a month. Then got utterly sick of it. Played Pirates of the Burning Sea too; same result.

Why? For both games, I spoke to almost no one; and no one spoke to me; no relationships were formed. I also found myself being led around by the nose instead of looking around for myself.

Both problems in both of these games are a result of the quest/task systems. They are the only practical way to level; and after two weeks it becomes obvious how endless and mindless they truly are.

Many claim it was the buggy launch; but that isn't true. A bad launch is a temporary problem. Gameplay that fosters exploration and socialization will retain players and grow.

It should go without saying that this is merely my opinion; it is the reason I have no interest in returning to Vanguard. Why am I here? In the small hope that SOE fixes the problem so that many (including me) can return to the MMO with the best UI and graphics in the industry.

MMOs, by definition, are not supposed to be linear; but both of these games are *very* linear because of the task system.

(little about me). I was a guild leader of a successful guild for years in EQ; had (and still have) hundreds of friends in the game. I did not make one single friend in Vanguard or POBS. This is 100% the fault of the task system.

 I think you are underselling the effects of a bad launch, many people try to say "oh well WOW had problems at launch" and they would be right but most of those problems had to do with the fact that the game was populated beyond Blizzards expectations.

Right now I'm racking my brain to think of a game that is universally accepted to have had a bad launch that didn't end up closed down free to play or highly niche and I haven't been able to think of one yet.

 You illustrated why WoW's horid launch didnt cause them to have a slow painfull death, making excuses for blizzard.

As far as I know memory leaks, pathing issues, falling through the world, graphical glitches and leaks, class ballance, incomplete classes. incomplete and untested class. Buggy skills... I can go on for quite some time but , the server stability due amounth of players was just one of the smaller issues.

 You are running off a list of stuff I never heard of don't recall anything incomplete or untested as far as classes go buggy skills aren't game breaking either but it seems VG had some major problems if so many people stopped playing it at launch so again you are talking about bugs that may have effected a small portion of a very large player base not like what Vanguard was at launch and to end the debate why don't you go to the most recent VG post before this one and count how many people have said they in fact were turned off by the crappy state the game was released in then get back to me on it.

More than half of the responders in the post asking folks not to write the game off list it's buggy state of release as main reasons they either don't play or the reason they think people aren't playing.

Or one could simply do as I asked orignially point me to a game where you hear so much about it's sad release state that has a stabe population anywhere near it's launch population.

Playing for a few days now and i'm liking it a lot, sure it has some 'problems' but most I played have worse problems than this :p

The only downer (so far) for me is well: population. I'm playing on the Halgar EU server and well seems not so much people around. Should I change server or just sit it out some more?

I'm not actively looking for groups yet since i'm learning the game but in the future it might bring problems.

Yes change servers play on the North American one. I cannot recall the name now though sorry.

Originally posted by raistlinm

Originally posted by Paithan

Originally posted by raistlinm

Originally posted by Arclan

Played upon launch; loved it for about a month. Then got utterly sick of it. Played Pirates of the Burning Sea too; same result.

Why? For both games, I spoke to almost no one; and no one spoke to me; no relationships were formed. I also found myself being led around by the nose instead of looking around for myself.

Both problems in both of these games are a result of the quest/task systems. They are the only practical way to level; and after two weeks it becomes obvious how endless and mindless they truly are.

Many claim it was the buggy launch; but that isn't true. A bad launch is a temporary problem. Gameplay that fosters exploration and socialization will retain players and grow.

It should go without saying that this is merely my opinion; it is the reason I have no interest in returning to Vanguard. Why am I here? In the small hope that SOE fixes the problem so that many (including me) can return to the MMO with the best UI and graphics in the industry.

MMOs, by definition, are not supposed to be linear; but both of these games are *very* linear because of the task system.

(little about me). I was a guild leader of a successful guild for years in EQ; had (and still have) hundreds of friends in the game. I did not make one single friend in Vanguard or POBS. This is 100% the fault of the task system.

 I think you are underselling the effects of a bad launch, many people try to say "oh well WOW had problems at launch" and they would be right but most of those problems had to do with the fact that the game was populated beyond Blizzards expectations.

Right now I'm racking my brain to think of a game that is universally accepted to have had a bad launch that didn't end up closed down free to play or highly niche and I haven't been able to think of one yet.

 You illustrated why WoW's horid launch didnt cause them to have a slow painfull death, making excuses for blizzard.

As far as I know memory leaks, pathing issues, falling through the world, graphical glitches and leaks, class ballance, incomplete classes. incomplete and untested class. Buggy skills... I can go on for quite some time but , the server stability due amounth of players was just one of the smaller issues.

 You are running off a list of stuff I never heard of don't recall anything incomplete or untested as far as classes go buggy skills aren't game breaking either but it seems VG had some major problems if so many people stopped playing it at launch so again you are talking about bugs that may have effected a small portion of a very large player base not like what Vanguard was at launch and to end the debate why don't you go to the most recent VG post before this one and count how many people have said they in fact were turned off by the crappy state the game was released in then get back to me on it.

More than half of the responders in the post asking folks not to write the game off list it's buggy state of release as main reasons they either don't play or the reason they think people aren't playing.

Or one could simply do as I asked orignially point me to a game where you hear so much about it's sad release state that has a stabe population anywhere near it's launch population.

 Lets start off with THE easiest of all, the hunter, they removed the original concept 2 days before release and returned a napkin design ( now using mana instead of energy and no longer able to use a shield.. sorry buckler)  in the retail version. Especialy in pvp, they where the free HKs. Took roughly a year before they bothered to .. try to fix them in the 1.7 patch, granted they kinna over buffed but still.

But it doesnt suprise me you .. forgot  the other rather large list of issues. Biggest differene was Vg was running much much better on top of the line systems , while WoW was runnning ..playeble on even a Vic20. Not all that important right now though.

But its true, the issues with VG, even though a large portion of then where not as bad as people want to think, are a large reason why the game wasnt as successfull as it could have been, SOE should have stepped in ALOT sooner, to fix it.

Another large reason was the system requirements. The combination of the high system requirements and the issue was the problem.

Originally posted by Arclan

Played upon launch; loved it for about a month. Then got utterly sick of it. Played Pirates of the Burning Sea too; same result.

Why? For both games, I spoke to almost no one; and no one spoke to me; no relationships were formed. I also found myself being led around by the nose instead of looking around for myself.

Both problems in both of these games are a result of the quest/task systems. They are the only practical way to level; and after two weeks it becomes obvious how endless and mindless they truly are.

Many claim it was the buggy launch; but that isn't true. A bad launch is a temporary problem. Gameplay that fosters exploration and socialization will retain players and grow.

It should go without saying that this is merely my opinion; it is the reason I have no interest in returning to Vanguard. Why am I here? In the small hope that SOE fixes the problem so that many (including me) can return to the MMO with the best UI and graphics in the industry.

MMOs, by definition, are not supposed to be linear; but both of these games are *very* linear because of the task system.

(little about me). I was a guild leader of a successful guild for years in EQ; had (and still have) hundreds of friends in the game. I did not make one single friend in Vanguard or POBS. This is 100% the fault of the task system. /edit oops I should mention that out of combat regen is also a culprit here; no time to chat; must kill 3 more widgets to finish my task. And since I am FM, why bother to stop swinging long enough to type something other than "incoming."

Part of me agrees with you, but then I keep coming back to this - if Vanguard failed because of its leveling/task/quest mechanic that lead to unsocial behavior, why is it that WoW has been so succesful?  

Don't get me wrong.  I definitely see the same behavior... I also played EQ for years and years, and I also had lots of friends in that game.  Nowadays I play other MMO's without many friends and seldom in a guild.

Why?  Because I can.  

In EQ, you didn't have much choice about grouping.  The game mechanics forced you to group.  You simply couldn't progress through the game (at least not effectively) without grouping.  Sure there were hardcores out there that got from 1-50 (and beyond) purely solo, but it was a much tougher road for them.

Then some new games came along and changed that... they offered a much different experience with less of a requirement to group, and more of an opportunity to solo.  And those games took off.  People liked to be able to play on their own time, at their own pace, without being forced to be sociable.  

So, I would offer that it has nothing to do with the quest/task experience, and rather everything to do with solo vs. group play.  If you make it just as viable to level up solo as you do in a group, people will pick solo (almost) every time.  And that's a shame, because the game is SOOO much more fun in a group.  It gives you a reason to login.  I want to see my friends, I want to adventure together.  It's why I don't touch single-player RPG's, and love MMORPG's. 

Cool JP, et. al. I appreciate your posts.

Just had a thought this morning. There are two servers, right? Merge everyone onto one server; make the second server a special ruleset server that requires practically no additional programming.

Special ruleset server:
1. No out of combat regen

2. Task xp lowered to an amount where it isn't really useful to do them unless you are really bored (just like in real EQ!)

3. Everyone gets griffon mounts. To reward those who had already done the griffon quest, give them unique dragon mounts that will henceforth be unobtainable. I tried the 5 minute griffon ride years ago and it was awesome; do not deny this feature to new players. VG has what every other MMO is lacking; a big seamless 3d world; and griffon mounts let that feature shine.

Voila, a special ruleset server that costs almost nothing to create; a seed from which can eventually grow an ancient oak with branches reaching to the heavens. I can't seem to logon to the VG forums; says my password is invalid...but I had fixed my password months ago.

We know SOE won't market this product; maybe they are secretly happy to see the child of their competitor fail even though it costs them money. So, VG players must actively engage in a marketing program of their own; one which takes word of this new server to the far reaches of the internet; they must persist at this campaign for at least a month.

Originally posted by Arclan

Cool JP, et. al. I appreciate your posts.

Just had a thought this morning. There are two servers, right? Merge everyone onto one server; make the second server a special ruleset server that requires practically no additional programming.

Special ruleset server:
1. No out of combat regen

Is this to force grouping with healers?  I wonder if maybe a better mechanic would be to simply slow down regen to a very (very) slow amount.  That way, the truly hardcore people who refuse to be sociable won't be completely driven from the game, but you're creating a clear advantage to grouping (in terms of less downtime).

2. Task xp lowered to an amount where it isn't really useful to do them unless you are really bored (just like in real EQ!)

I think that all this does is forces people to grind mobs rather than quests.  Of course that's what I did in EQ, but I'm not sure that's the answer.  Maybe you make quests more difficult (just scale up mob difficulty across the board, for both grinding as well as quests).  And you grant bonus XP to every additional player in a group when a quest gets completed or a mob gets killed.  I think EQ did it that way, unless I'm remembering incorrectly?  This way, you're encouraging people to group - it's the best way to kill fast, and you get a bonus for it as well.

3. Everyone gets griffon mounts. To reward those who had already done the griffon quest, give them unique dragon mounts that will henceforth be unobtainable. I tried the 5 minute griffon ride years ago and it was awesome; do not deny this feature to new players. VG has what every other MMO is lacking; a big seamless 3d world; and griffon mounts let that feature shine.

I really like this idea.  As you said, it gives people to appreciate the awesome expanse of the game from every vantage point, while at the same time making it easier for people to congregate - i.e. increased ability to group up.  The only thing I'd change is making dragons unobtainable.  By doing that, you're creating a class system (old players vs. new) that can never be surmounted.  I'd say give everybody who has a griffon a dragon, and convert the griffon quest into a dragon quest.

Voila, a special ruleset server that costs almost nothing to create; a seed from which can eventually grow an ancient oak with branches reaching to the heavens. I can't seem to logon to the VG forums; says my password is invalid...but I had fixed my password months ago.

I'm not a game developer, so I have no idea of how hard things are actually to pull off.  But it does seem reasonable that (1) merging servers, (2) changing the XP reward curve across the board, and (3) upgrading existing mounts while changing a single quest reward doesn't sound impossible. 

We know SOE won't market this product; maybe they are secretly happy to see the child of their competitor fail even though it costs them money. So, VG players must actively engage in a marketing program of their own; one which takes word of this new server to the far reaches of the internet; they must persist at this campaign for at least a month.

Ah, and therein lies the rub.  Unless SOE markets it, I have a fundamental doubt that the players will be effective... SOE could attract lots of folks back with, say for example, a 3 month (or even 6 month) F2P period.  I'm not talking about  adding micro-transactions.  I'm talking about making it 100% F2P for 3 months... then re-introduce a subscription when people are hooked.

Agreed.

JP, items 1 and 2 have one purpose; to give players the opportunity to talk with each other.

VG tries too hard to keep players busy; so busy, in fact, that they don't talk. After a couple months, most players notice something is missing and move one; what's missing are the friendships.

Sure there are exceptions to this rule; but exceptions don't make a successful MMO; the rule does.

Re: the Griffon/Dragon; upon further reflection I still think SOE should reward current VG players; they stuck with the game and completed the difficult Griffon quest. Let their mounts be like mana stones; unobtainable and coveted but still in game. If a player wants to give his away or sell his; that is his or her choice.

ok this may sound rediculous, but I was thinking. Perhaps the dragon mounts can have a gender; and players could try to breed them with other dragon mounts. This could be a way to bring more of them into the game.

Main reason Vanguard hasn't taken off is simply due to lack of advertisement. When is the last time you seen an advertisement for Vanguard anywhere? They need to go F2P and advertise heavy at that time and may get a lot of new subs. Other than that no one except hardcore mmo players know of it's existance. I agree with a lot, I feel they simply don't care about this game anymore and will let it die slowly. Game is not worth anything, too many better options out there.

Problem with SOE owning all those games; is where are they going to advertise all of them? If they advertise VG, all the other game players/programmers will get pissed.

Other than that, ya, I'd love to see a cool VG advertisement every time I come to MMORPG.

Originally posted by Arclan

 

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Originally posted by Slowdoves

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Originally posted by Arclan
 
Can anyone here say they know actual people who refuse to play VG because of the "bad launch?" It's a myth people hide behind to conceal the fact that the game play is simply not there. Hell, even combat is too busy-work-like; I've mashed the buttons just like you have; and I can say after two months of mashing buttons; none of it was memorable; and frankly none of it really made sense.

---

I can say that. When I heard it was bad launch I actually stayed clear away from this game. I decided to try it out when someone in WoW chat was saying how they improved the game and how much better it was since launch.  Like I mention on previous post I was enjoying it very much just not the community.
I don't believe that the gameplay is not there at all. It's a preference and it's not for everyone just like many other MMOs it wasn't for you.

---

 

Ah my dear friend, you are proving my point. You tried it even considering the bad launch. To the guy who said I'm antisocial; omg that's funny. It's simple, in the groups that I had (all were people trying to finish tasks), no one spoke in group chat. There was no time; the dunegeon was right next to the task giver; no downtime due to out of combat regen; and combat requires constant button mashing.

In fact, it seemed like as soon as I did meet someone cool, I never saw their character online again; the game had a huge turnover. Lots and lots tried it; very few liked it enough to keep playing.

BTW, good info xDayx Thanks

 

People left because the game was buggy as hell and unplayable on many systems. There were many promises not kept and the community reacted. It had litttle/nothing to do with content that isolated people.

Vanguard at launch was LESS solo friendly than today and the best of vanguard adventuring has always been its dungeons, you know the places you cant go alone. Furthermore, vanguard is one game where you have mid level dungeons with VERY VERY long questlines. I met so many people doing these and we stuck together and I know them to this day... maybe you didn't get involved the real core parts of the game or something ?  Or bad luck ?

But if anything vanguard is designed for grouping and interaction, moreso than nearly every game released since 07. It sucks you had a bad experience, you should come back the game is great today and there is group activity everywhere.

 

Originally posted by ArcheAge

Originally posted by Jayaris

I went on the VG site after reading about it on an article, but after being unable to easily find screenshots/game information I just left the website. First impressions important, and it isn't following the standard "Game Info, Features, Media etc.." conventions.

Maybe I'm lazy and/or retarded, but that's one player gone.

Really their is loads of information about Vanguard on the site and around the internet. You said it yourself  "lazy/or retarded" as for the one player gone,well you never were going to be a player.

You would be lost anyway..

Haha, typical ignorant Scandinavian..

Oh, sorry I didn't realize that the 'Internet' had the information I needed. Here's the thing, I complained about the unavailability of immediate information about the game on the games website. No doubt I could find information about a game by searching the internet, very few people are going to look at a site see very little information about it and think :

"Hmm.. I think this demands further investigation"

After searching the site a second time, all I see is a lot leaderboards. Let's be realistic, whoever made this website was a complete idiot - It doesn't market the game well in any way the game has sixteen races and yet the only place it's mentioned are on 3rd Party sites, the so-called deepness of the game should be advertised immediately on the website.

Again, you're a Scandinavian and Scandinavian's born live and die ignorant and stupid. With the other thread stating that 250 concurrent players are online I'm afraid I can't play in a community where 0.4% of the player base are as stupid and ignorant as you are.

But, if you want my advice tell the developers to update the website - And they might want to have to have the In The Works page be updated from the 2009 plans - He He.

I still defend this game as the best MMO that i've ever played the efforts you put into the char you create are rewarded at the end. 

once vanguard gets its updates you will see a lot of the players that are feed up with other mmo's and now are given a reason to test the game out again.  Vanguard is a masterpiece. 

Another thing join a guild if you plan on returning because the low pop makes VG empty.  Twighlte Song or how ever you spell it is a good one to join for returning or new vg players.  They are always spam recruiting in chat.  The game is Fun plus you can always contact Jank for assistents.  last thing i would avoid the isle because for one it wasn't apart of the original game and you don't really communicate with the players who know the game.  Also you get to see visually the masterpiece that is vanguard and how beautiful the world is and understand each race.  The only thing isle offers is gear but at lvl 15+ you will be switching it all out for HL pieces.  Isle is better for crafters or diplo focused players since you end up with really nice gear at thtat lvl.

almost forgot there is always a GM on Doe is probably the best GM ever.  GM's don't hide in this game but interact with players.  VG is like fine wine alone gets better over time.

Cool; if I subscribe to SOE again, I may get a station pass and check out VG and join Twilight Song. What city is the best city to start at? As I will be rerolling.

Originally posted by Arclan

Cool; if I subscribe to SOE again, I may get a station pass and check out VG and join Twilight Song. What city is the best city to start at? As I will be rerolling.

 Well it depends. If you want to see the world early and feel immersed I would start at one of the original starting areas.  However, most poeple start on the isle which really works well if you are just getting into things as the rewards are very good and give you a good intro into all spheres in a nice little but somewhat isolated package.

1. Download infomap from www.vginterface.com it really makes exploring vanguard easier and doesn't spoil your exploration bug, it encourages it.

2. run the isle, you will get to level 10 in all speres ( if you choose ). I highly recommend Crafting its truly an amazing experience ( i know this sounds wierd )

3, join an active guild, certainly come to twilight song we have tons of members, I would say >15 people on at all times, during the day ( this is PST mind you ) >35 and peak times we have 40+.

4. Then you have another choice ( well many ) you can run the same core areas most people do ( there is a little bit of direction and suggestion by npcs where to go )

or . . . 

Look on infomap, find an area with a dungeon around your level. For level 10 ish  there must be 5-10 dungeons of various sizes. Ask people in guild to join you and you are off. People are always looking to go off the beaten path and try different areas.

Also, everyone has tons of alts. A game with this much content ( i have alts 49/37/22/21/29/10/15 ) and I still have not seen likely 30% of the 1-30 content. 

The good news is that gear is good enough ( and players ) that you can get by grouping with less than a full group in most situations. Many people have well geared characters and the guild(s) will certainly help. Crafted stuff can help a ton.

Of coruse you can solo in the meantime, i typically do until i find something i want to explore and then call out for help, most folks really want to explore the game so are game for anything.

Hope this helps you !