So I've played three character types to level 10 so far (warrior, monk, shaman). 

This is my experience - most of what I'm experiencing is much of the same as any other MMO, boring MMO grind.  You do the same quests over, you complete them and do some more... so I'm not really going to downgrade it here, as it's not really any worst, or better than any other MMO in this regard.  However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

Crafting - by far the best I've seen so far in any MMORPG other than UO.  The only reason UO's is better, is simply because things break a lot faster and get lost in UO so the demand is always higher for items.  Most MMORPG's suffer from this fact of bindable equipment never ever being lost, thus no need to ever replace them.  Ultima Online wins the cake just for this fact, but between now day MMORPG crafting I think vanguard is a very superb specimen.  Although if you're playing it just for crafting, I'd say try ATITD instead.  As it's pretty simular in this regard, but focused entirely around it.

The classes themselves seem fun and playable, although I must say my warrior especially would have been a LOT more fun if I could have grouped with people.  Leveling can be tedious when solo and playing a group character... so it wouldn't be fair to judge this.

Now the suprising thing... population.  It's drastically improved since the last time I played it 6 months ago.  There were at least 10 people on around my level who were actively seeking groups, chatting it up and being very helpful.  I must say a very mature crowd plays this game.

Now to continue on my adventure...

Originally posted by daveospice

<> 

This is my experience - most of what I'm experiencing is much of the same as any other MMO, boring MMO grind.  You do the same quests over, you complete them and do some more... so I'm not really going to downgrade it here, as it's not really any worst, or better than any other MMO in this regard.  However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

<>

I share your dislike of boring quest hubs giving you one after another like you are just following along on handrails.

However, I disagree completely with how you feel about arrows and quest items lighting up and other similar quest aids. Those things are exactly what I don't want...dots on the map showing you where to go, and when you get there, something lit up so you know exactly where to go and have to look for nothing. You know that all you have to do is walk up to the item and press spacebar or whatever, and you're done. Follow one dot, follow the light, press space. No thinking required at all. Very uninteresting and very unimmersive. I want the adventure of having to actually look, find, and figure out stuff for myself. I can look it up online if I want help.

Anyway, thanks for the review. I'm glad to hear more people are coming back. I might try it again as well if that keeps up.  

Originally posted by daveospice

 However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

 Far from me to disagree with what is your review, but the concern you raise above may actually gain a point for some players. This was the norm before WoW made questing accessible so to speak :P

Originally posted by daveospice

So I've played three character types to level 10 so far (warrior, monk, shaman). 

This is my experience - most of what I'm experiencing is much of the same as any other MMO, boring MMO grind.  You do the same quests over, you complete them and do some more... so I'm not really going to downgrade it here, as it's not really any worst, or better than any other MMO in this regard.  However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

Crafting - by far the best I've seen so far in any MMORPG other than UO.  The only reason UO's is better, is simply because things break a lot faster and get lost in UO so the demand is always higher for items.  Most MMORPG's suffer from this fact of bindable equipment never ever being lost, thus no need to ever replace them.  Ultima Online wins the cake just for this fact, but between now day MMORPG crafting I think vanguard is a very superb specimen.  Although if you're playing it just for crafting, I'd say try ATITD instead.  As it's pretty simular in this regard, but focused entirely around it.

The classes themselves seem fun and playable, although I must say my warrior especially would have been a LOT more fun if I could have grouped with people.  Leveling can be tedious when solo and playing a group character... so it wouldn't be fair to judge this.

 

Now the suprising thing... population.  It's drastically improved since the last time I played it 6 months ago.  There were at least 10 people on around my level who were actively seeking groups, chatting it up and being very helpful.  I must say a very mature crowd plays this game.

 

Now to continue on my adventure...

 Well I'm not sure if you leveled 3 character's on the Trial Island but if you did " Yes"  you would be doing the same quest  over and over.   As far as boring, well it's about the same as vanilla wow, understand that this game is about 4 years old and does not have dynamic events.

Let's talk about dynamic events so far in newer mmo's......I can't seem to get myself to play RIFT for the fact that I don't think I could play an mmo with Rifts opening up at random, putting out meaningless fires with no real purpose, disturbing my own path of an open world of doing what I feel like ( To me that would be a flop like Warhammers dynamic events ).  Same with WoW's two new starting zones. With it's personalized events, again stopping me from the freedom to make my own in game life.

I love the fact that they don't have a quest tracker.  Last few times I played WoW I got it down where I don't have to read anything. the quest tracker does everything for me it even circles the area that I have to kill everything. Very mindless.

About the dots that quest in Vanguard give.  At first I thought they sucked too.  But did you know you can use the + / -  signs under the mini map to zoom in to the dot ?.....It helps narrow the spot down !

Crafting- I don't craft in any mmo, I'm in it for grouping and adventuring.  So I can't say much there.

Classes and there abilities are unique and interesting more so than any other game. I could go into detail on this but I have to go to work.

Everyone talks about Vanguard's sandbox nature, of an open world where you can travel anywhere at anytime, where you can build houses, ships and guild halls, own normal mounts and flying mounts, etc.

But to be honest, one of the things I loved the most about Vanguard was simply it's classes. Each class in the game is unique in it's own way and whilst many share similiarities to other games, there are some that just stand out as being great.

The Bard, being able to craft your own songs is an awesome feature.

The Disciple, a true melee healer, that really has to get stuck into the fight to do healing.

The Necromancer, the abomination was took pet classes to a whole new level, with the harvesting of parts for it.

They are all great and I wish more MMOs tried to come up with unique and exciting classes, with their own features and mechanics, rather than just sticking to the "norm".

Well - I cant help but notice this selection of classes is especially awful.

- Warrior is a class you should simply skip now. There never was a good reason why to play them instead of a Dread Knight or Paladin in the first place anyway. And now the game is very empty, the Warrior is just the worst of all solist. They have no trick whatsoever - no (relevant) healing, no runspeed, no snare, no fear, no levitation. Managing a 4-dot is a huge, near impossible archievement on a Warrior. This is quite manageable for most other classes.

- Monk is the second worst solist. Their only advantage over Warrior is having Fake Death. Still they have no means to kite or to heal themselves, like any other class.

- Shaman is of course an OK choice. Especially Bear Shamans are good solists, with great tanking and strong healing. Wolf and Phoenix Shaman can still kite, albeit its kinda tricky. Phoenix has the levi for it, while Wolf has the second best runspeed buff after Druid.

Its really simple, if you want to play Vanguard, skip over Warrior, Monk and maybe Rogue (albeit those can skill manage to kite, but its no comparison to Ranger or Bard).

About crafting, the reasons you give why UO crafting would be superior dont impress me. I am a strong opponent to any treadmil gaming. If I play a game, I want to see pogress. I dont want to work hard just to stay the same.

Originally posted by bobfish

Everyone talks about Vanguard's sandbox nature, of an open world where you can travel anywhere at anytime, where you can build houses, ships and guild halls, own normal mounts and flying mounts, etc.

 

But to be honest, one of the things I loved the most about Vanguard was simply it's classes. Each class in the game is unique in it's own way and whilst many share similiarities to other games, there are some that just stand out as being great.

The Bard, being able to craft your own songs is an awesome feature.

The Disciple, a true melee healer, that really has to get stuck into the fight to do healing.

The Necromancer, the abomination was took pet classes to a whole new level, with the harvesting of parts for it.

They are all great and I wish more MMOs tried to come up with unique and exciting classes, with their own features and mechanics, rather than just sticking to the "norm".

The problem with the classes imo is that they lack significant style, mainly due to the fact that animations, be it casting or fighting, are actually the same for every race/class.

Sure, the mechanics are really nicely done, like the blood mage or the bard... But they lack the salt, the Warhammerish "Look I wield two swords, look nosy and have a badass tattoo under my eye: I'm a DoK". Most successful games have this (though WAR is probably not successful, but surely not because of the excellent class-style) including WoW. 

So yea, mechanics were great in Vanguard but I would have settled for one third of the classes if they had their own unique art and animation style...

It's generally something that Sigil just lost track of, artstyle and atmosphere. They created this huge, deep, complex, fun game but completely missed the idea of how "feel" is created. 

Which is unfortunate, since I really liked the exploration/open-world/meaningful char development aspect of Vanguard. I reeeally did.

M

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by bobfish

Everyone talks about Vanguard's sandbox nature, of an open world where you can travel anywhere at anytime, where you can build houses, ships and guild halls, own normal mounts and flying mounts, etc.

 

But to be honest, one of the things I loved the most about Vanguard was simply it's classes. Each class in the game is unique in it's own way and whilst many share similiarities to other games, there are some that just stand out as being great.

The Bard, being able to craft your own songs is an awesome feature.

The Disciple, a true melee healer, that really has to get stuck into the fight to do healing.

The Necromancer, the abomination was took pet classes to a whole new level, with the harvesting of parts for it.

They are all great and I wish more MMOs tried to come up with unique and exciting classes, with their own features and mechanics, rather than just sticking to the "norm".

The problem with the classes imo is that they lack significant style, mainly due to the fact that animations, be it casting or fighting, are actually the same for every race/class.

Sure, the mechanics are really nicely done, like the blood mage or the bard... But they lack the salt, the Warhammerish "Look I wield two swords, look nosy and have a badass tattoo under my eye: I'm a DoK". Most successful games have this (though WAR is probably not successful, but surely not because of the excellent class-style) including WoW. 

So yea, mechanics were great in Vanguard but I would have settled for one third of the classes if they had their own unique art and animation style...

It's generally something that Sigil just lost track of, artstyle and atmosphere. They created this huge, deep, complex, fun game but completely missed the idea of how "feel" is created. 

Which is unfortunate, since I really liked the exploration/open-world/meaningful char development aspect of Vanguard. I reeeally did.

M

 yup, thats one of the biggest problems today ... that majory of people care more about style than about substance

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by bobfish

Everyone talks about Vanguard's sandbox nature, of an open world where you can travel anywhere at anytime, where you can build houses, ships and guild halls, own normal mounts and flying mounts, etc.

 

But to be honest, one of the things I loved the most about Vanguard was simply it's classes. Each class in the game is unique in it's own way and whilst many share similiarities to other games, there are some that just stand out as being great.

The Bard, being able to craft your own songs is an awesome feature.

The Disciple, a true melee healer, that really has to get stuck into the fight to do healing.

The Necromancer, the abomination was took pet classes to a whole new level, with the harvesting of parts for it.

They are all great and I wish more MMOs tried to come up with unique and exciting classes, with their own features and mechanics, rather than just sticking to the "norm".

The problem with the classes imo is that they lack significant style, mainly due to the fact that animations, be it casting or fighting, are actually the same for every race/class.

Sure, the mechanics are really nicely done, like the blood mage or the bard... But they lack the salt, the Warhammerish "Look I wield two swords, look nosy and have a badass tattoo under my eye: I'm a DoK". Most successful games have this (though WAR is probably not successful, but surely not because of the excellent class-style) including WoW. 

So yea, mechanics were great in Vanguard but I would have settled for one third of the classes if they had their own unique art and animation style...

It's generally something that Sigil just lost track of, artstyle and atmosphere. They created this huge, deep, complex, fun game but completely missed the idea of how "feel" is created. 

Which is unfortunate, since I really liked the exploration/open-world/meaningful char development aspect of Vanguard. I reeeally did.

M

 yup, thats one of the biggest problems today ... that majory of people care more about style than about substance

That's annoyingly arechetypical of the "jaded-vet", grumbling and mumbling one-liners and self-indulgence...

Besides this, style was never the problem. Games with good art/style can tank (WAR) and games with poor to no art/style (EVE) can thrive. Style was always one of many category of success, and Vanguard does poorly in it. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "problem" is (if you're referring to the whole pay to win, free to play, browsergame, itemshop boom) that our (my, yours) hobby has been overrun by people who aren't gamers. Those people can't cherish quality gaming because they don't give a shit and just want to have "some fun with friends" on facebook, including terrible art/style.

M

Originally posted by Benedikt

 yup, thats one of the biggest problems today ... that majory of people care more about style than about substance

Personally I'm absolutely baffled by it. I never have time during combat to study how my character does things - I'm much too busy checking if my actions have succeeded, which action I should choose next, what else is going on, etc.

Originally posted by daveospice

So I've played three character types to level 10 so far (warrior, monk, shaman).

 I'm wondering if these were all played on the trial island or starting from their home lands.  Two very different experiences when I last played it. 

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by bobfish

Everyone talks about Vanguard's sandbox nature, of an open world where you can travel anywhere at anytime, where you can build houses, ships and guild halls, own normal mounts and flying mounts, etc.

 

But to be honest, one of the things I loved the most about Vanguard was simply it's classes. Each class in the game is unique in it's own way and whilst many share similiarities to other games, there are some that just stand out as being great.

The Bard, being able to craft your own songs is an awesome feature.

The Disciple, a true melee healer, that really has to get stuck into the fight to do healing.

The Necromancer, the abomination was took pet classes to a whole new level, with the harvesting of parts for it.

They are all great and I wish more MMOs tried to come up with unique and exciting classes, with their own features and mechanics, rather than just sticking to the "norm".

The problem with the classes imo is that they lack significant style, mainly due to the fact that animations, be it casting or fighting, are actually the same for every race/class.

Sure, the mechanics are really nicely done, like the blood mage or the bard... But they lack the salt, the Warhammerish "Look I wield two swords, look nosy and have a badass tattoo under my eye: I'm a DoK". Most successful games have this (though WAR is probably not successful, but surely not because of the excellent class-style) including WoW. 

So yea, mechanics were great in Vanguard but I would have settled for one third of the classes if they had their own unique art and animation style...

It's generally something that Sigil just lost track of, artstyle and atmosphere. They created this huge, deep, complex, fun game but completely missed the idea of how "feel" is created. 

Which is unfortunate, since I really liked the exploration/open-world/meaningful char development aspect of Vanguard. I reeeally did.

M

 I'm gonna have to dissagree with you here, unless I am misunderstanding you.  I absolutely hated looking like everyone else that was the same class as me. 

Making three different characters on trial island will not change the quests for you...Its called trial just for these reasons..

If you want to enjoy the lore and quests variety for VG, make characters in different racial areas and see what it has to offer and I bet you won't be disappointed.

Just remember to be proactive in asking people for grouping and making friends in game...

Joining a healty guild like Twilghlyte Song will make your game playing experience more enjoyable...

We already bhave official announcement on forums that new devs have been hired and new content is on the anvil...so that proves that game is here to stay. There already is  no dearth of great content for a new player..

So this is the best time to come to VG anf make it your new  home

Originally posted by sri_rishabh

Making three different characters on trial island will not change the quests for you...Its called trial just for these reasons..

If you want to enjoy the lore and quests variety for VG, make characters in different racial areas and see what it has to offer and I bet you won't be disappointed.

Just remember to be proactive in asking people for grouping and making friends in game...

Joining a healty guild like Twilghlyte Song will make your game playing experience more enjoyable...

We already bhave official announcement on forums that new devs have been hired and new content is on the anvil...so that proves that game is here to stay. There already is  no dearth of great content for a new player..

So this is the best time to come to VG anf make it your new  home

agreed.

the only reasons to do the trial isle of dawn starter area is twofold:

1. the tutorials for the 3 spheres (adventuring, harvesting/crafting, and diplomacy) are *far* better on the isle of dawn.

2. the gear is also, leagues ahead of what's available in the racial starter areas in the first 10 levels.

what's good fun is to do the starter isle, then head off to your racial starter area and catch up on those quests and let them lead you into your 20's. Veskal's Exchange is of course far more populated and can do the same thing, but again its a matter of disliking repetition and exploring the vast world of Telon that you head off to the racial starter zones.

Vanguard will always be, for me, the game that had all the elements I want and like but didn't excell enough at anything to grap me.  I've come back several times, most lately during the 45 days of free play but never been able to stay

My likes in games are diversity in classes (or skills), decent crafting, customizable housing, flight, nice graphics.

Vanguard had all of them, but the classes were only a little diverse - bard was great.  But I didn't really feel any real difference in style between any of the magic classes, or any of the melee classes.  Ranger felt a bit different as well though.

Crafting wasn't bad - but it was pretty grindy, long and kind of a button fest.

Housing - it had it but it was pretty limited and only a few styles.

Flight - yep had it, but the animations felt a bit clunky and stiff.

Graphics - environment was awesome - characters were awful.

I would like to say I left each time because of bugs - which there were, or because it was quiet - which it was, but in truth I was just bored.  It had everything but excelled at nothing, not enough to keep me interested anyway.

Same with the other areas - combat had a few things, but ultimatley was pretty darn slow, ditto with dungeon crawls.  It was all just kind of... meh.

Venge

edit - and diplomacy was horribly boring IMO.

Originally posted by daveospice

So I've played three character types to level 10 so far (warrior, monk, shaman). 

This is my experience - most of what I'm experiencing is much of the same as any other MMO, boring MMO grind.  You do the same quests over, you complete them and do some more... so I'm not really going to downgrade it here, as it's not really any worst, or better than any other MMO in this regard.  However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

Crafting - by far the best I've seen so far in any MMORPG other than UO.  The only reason UO's is better, is simply because things break a lot faster and get lost in UO so the demand is always higher for items.  Most MMORPG's suffer from this fact of bindable equipment never ever being lost, thus no need to ever replace them.  Ultima Online wins the cake just for this fact, but between now day MMORPG crafting I think vanguard is a very superb specimen.  Although if you're playing it just for crafting, I'd say try ATITD instead.  As it's pretty simular in this regard, but focused entirely around it.

The classes themselves seem fun and playable, although I must say my warrior especially would have been a LOT more fun if I could have grouped with people.  Leveling can be tedious when solo and playing a group character... so it wouldn't be fair to judge this.

 

Now the suprising thing... population.  It's drastically improved since the last time I played it 6 months ago.  There were at least 10 people on around my level who were actively seeking groups, chatting it up and being very helpful.  I must say a very mature crowd plays this game.

 

Now to continue on my adventure...

 OP did you bother to do any research as to what Vanguard was designed to be?  If you did you would have known that the quest system was not dumbed down WoWish in nature.  This game was going to be what EQ2 wasn't, a throwback to the good ole days where you had to WORK FOR IT.  It was supposed to be for the gamer that didn't want everything to be handed to him on a silver platter so all you had to do was log in and win. 

The sad thing part is it could have been huge, but mismanagement and then SOE gettting their paws on it made sure it would never live up to what could have been.  It's a shame really, I lasted thru the betas and about 8 or 9 months after release before I just couldn't take the bugs and total lack of SOE support anymore.

Originally posted by daveospice

This is my experience - most of what I'm experiencing is much of the same as any other MMO, boring MMO grind.  You do the same quests over, you complete them and do some more... so I'm not really going to downgrade it here, as it's not really any worst, or better than any other MMO in this regard.  However, it does lose a point simply because there is no arrow or compass with an indicator of which direction you should be going.   Instead you have to track each quest, then go on the map where they are which can sometimes be pretty off, and also not indicate that things are underground...  Also quest sensitive items do not glow, or light up so sometimes you can walk by them before even realizing you could have been collecting them all along.

Ah good ol' WoW has has nearly wiped out form initiative and creativity in the gaming player base. One silver platter to go please.

Vanguard is a real hidden gem and I'd easily recommend it to anyone perhaps if more of the game's original population had stuck with it through numerous bugs and performance issues, which I'll admit were probably some of the worst I've ever seen from an MMORPG at launch.  Graphically, it's one of the most beautiful games I've ever played (though some areas do look a bit iffy in certain ways) and you can easily see the influence of Keith Parkinson within the game's art direction, and to top it off, it's a vast open world where if you can see it, you can go there.  The vast scope of the game world is really unlike anything I've seen in an MMORPG or really in any game.  There are numerous classes which are all fairly diverse and there are a number of different races all with their own starting areas. There are also tons of dungeons scattered throughout the game world just waiting for players to discover and conquer, but I think that's where the issues set in.

Vanguard's population simply isn't condusive to new players trying to progress through the game.  It's one of the most top heavy games  on the market today, and in addition to the fact that Telon, the game's most active server, probably doesn't see over 1000 players at peak times, the overwhelming majority of those players are level 55.  Vanguard isn't your typical solo quest to the level cap sort of game either.  No, the game is meant to be played with at least one other player in your party at all times and preferably a full group for almost anything that involves obtaining gear sets.  Much of Vanguard, especially at the later levels devolves into a serious grind of repetitive kill x of y quests to obtain tokens or to raise faction points in order to buy gear which are all painfully boring when done solo.  This leaves the lower level players to, as has been said, find a big guild and "make friends."  To promote this as a "cure-all" for Vanguard's population issues is disengenuous at best.  You can join Twilyght Song and be extremely proactive helping everyone who asks for assistance, but that doesn't guarantee that you're going to get the same assistance in return, and it certainly doesn't mean you can blaze through the game at the same level of progression you would in WoW, LotRO, or Rift.  No, a Vanguard player's nights will be filled with a lot of sitting around waiting for people to help you with a quest or slowly soloing your way through Vanguard's vast contingent of "small group" quests.  After level 55, Vanguard's largest surplus of players is around levels 1-20, and they're the ones that go around proclaiming that Vanguard is an amazing game, and while that's not exactly a lie, they don't know the true story.  There's a reason why those same people almost never reach the level cap before they quit, and it's because the annoyances from Vanguard's population woes don't become all that apparent until around level 20 where you soon realize that doing just about anything worthwhile in the game requires a group of players to complete.

If you are just levelling on the trial island you won't get what Vanguard is about at all. It is not supposed to be a game where you get a quest, follow a pointer, kill mobs, turn in quest, then repeat. On the mainlands you would find out how big the world is and big means exploration. Part of the charm of Vanguard is getting a quest, then seeing something weird on the way to doing it, only to find out it is a whole new town or dungeon you didn't know was there before starting your original quest. You can make your own adventure instead of mindlessly following arrows and pointers like in other mmos.. that's kinda what people like about it.

Unlike a few others here, I do not recommend starting a new character anywhere than the Isle of Dawn, a bit of story does not make up for the other disadvantages.

However, I definitely recommend you play beyond 10 with a class before deciding whether you like it or not, you won't really get a feel for a class until the 20s or after grouping.