Players can buy and sell their characters, items, and gold with SoE's "Live Gamer". (for a small fee)

If anyone has a problem with RMT it's better to find out now before you start spending time in the game.  New players might not know or care what Live Gamer is, so to potentially save you some time, now you do.

This isnt really new info is it? I remember hearing about this at the beginning of the year.

old news.... Really has no impact as every game has RMT...  Game companies try to stop it frequently but it really doesn't matter it happens everywhere.  I think the big impact of SoE running the RMT live exchange servers is that 1. they get some % from every player transaction, 2. Gold farmers see less profit and therefore have less motivation, and 3. Traders have less risk or fraud.

In any event this is almost a year old news and really hasn't had any impact on the game.

At the same time Ethion, company sanctioned RMT encourages far more players to partake in those types of activities which further expand the problem.  It turns all players into quasi gold farmers, because it puts a cash incentive on gameplay.

Cash incentive and gameplay are about the two most opposed aspects I can think of and should never accompany each other.

Also saying "every game has RMT" in comparison to livegamer is playing fast and loose with terminology.  They may share similarities, but they are very different beasts. 

It wasn't long ago that soe took the official stance the RMT inside their game worlds hurt players, the economy and gameplay.  I don't see how anything has changed except that soe gets a cut of the revenue now. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

At the same time Ethion, company sanctioned RMT encourages far more players to partake in those types of activities which further expand the problem.  It turns all players into quasi gold farmers, because it puts a cash incentive on gameplay.

Cash incentive and gameplay are about the two most opposed aspects I can think of and should never accompany each other.

 

Also saying "every game has RMT" in comparison to livegamer is playing fast and loose with terminology.  They may share similarities, but they are very different beasts. 

 

 

It wasn't long ago that soe took the official stance the RMT inside their game worlds hurt players, the economy and gameplay.  I don't see how anything has changed except that soe gets a cut of the revenue now. 

 

I think that game sanctioned or not RMT, a term which doesn't really fit this application, happens in all games.  Games saying they don't sanction it doesn't mean much since it isn't enforced.  I know lots of people in wow for example that buy gold and when I played eq even though they actively tried to prevent it it was ongoing all the time.  Fact is it is VERY difficult to prevent and if players want it they can't stop it.  What companies do try to enforce is removing gold farmers.  

One thing SoE did do is test this exchange server on eq2 before deploying it more.  It doesn't impact the economy in the game or have any other effect that is noticable.  If you go into the exchange servers on eq2 and compare them to non exchange servers there isn't any significant difference. 

What it accomplished is to make gold farming not cost effective for large companies as some players will sell it cheaper or the market fluxuates so it isn't as worthwhile.

RMT isn't a good match because games that are RMT sell you gold directly for money.  Where the exchange server is similar it is player driven not SoE driven.  In the end you might say it is the same thing but it is still different...  Most true RMT games tend to make you do RMT whether you want to or not.  Just like most free cash games.  They make that there primary revenue and while they say it is optional it isn't.  If you don't buy money you can't play the game and ever realistically make enough money to pay for things you need to buy as you level.  So a true RMT game makes you buy money as a way of making money.  This is what RMT brings to mind.

SoE is bending normal definitions of these rules creating somewhat different models.

Anyway thats my opinion.  It is definitely a fine line and frankly I'm not sure how it will end up.  The latest EQ2 update with ldon cards that give you a key to unlock content seems like a baby step in the direction that I don't like.  Basically I'm ok as long as I never need to use a cash shop or any form of RMT.  Once I feel like the game forces me to partake in these things to be effective playing the game THEN I will certainly jump on the bandwagon of haters :)

Originally posted by heremypet

Players can buy and sell their characters, items, and gold with SoE's "Live Gamer". (for a small fee)

If anyone has a problem with RMT it's better to find out now before you start spending time in the game.  New players might not know or care what Live Gamer is, so to potentially save you some time, now you do.

LOL.

 yep soe made that to make sure there were no player being scammed ,with their own service buyer dont need to go to shady seller always wondering if they will get the goods

Quick question for us noobs out there.

What is RMT?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum debate

Real Money Trading, encompasses things such as illegal gold selling, company sponsored cash shops etc.

Originally posted by Cdnvanguard

Quick question for us noobs out there.

 

What is RMT?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum debate

This was a good one :)

RMT

Definition: Real Money Trade; when a player exchanges real money for ingame items or ingame currency.
Usage: Noobs with no skills have to RMT to get that leet gear.

But like I said there are degrees to everything.  In some games the only way you can get good items is via RMT in some games you just get junk that doesn't matter.  In some games you can't make enough money in the game to progress, and you have to buy gold to progress. 

It's all about making money and how to pay for the game.  Subscription games typically don't have RMT or if they do it is for minor items that are really just about coolness or minor utility.  In free games you have to buy your way into the game and you can't really play the game and progress without buying stuff or buying money.

Exchange services are a bit different in that players are paying to buy and sell, money, items and characters between themselves.  It is always a big battle in games lead by gold sellers and various companies that specialize in it.  That in turn leads to gold seller spam, people being cheated, and farmers camping spawns for gold or items.  SoE decided rather then fight it make player to player selling ok and to collect a percent on the transaction.  It gets them revenue, cuts back on gold spam and farmers and reduces support costs dealing with frauded players.

Bottom line is it is a term that is applied broadly to a lots of things but boils down to the basic idea of being able to buy something with real money related to the game.

Between the spectrum of good and bad there is a broad range of degrees. 

In an ideal MMO world (pun intended), there would be no RMT. In my opinion it ruins the heart of the game - the immersion in another world.

Now, when I meet other players, I can't help but wonder whether they earned the level and gear they have, or if they just bought it.

This is something you can ignore to some extent if you ever only play in your own small groups, but it insidiously gnaws away at the heart of the game - the massively multiplayer part.

I think that any wise MMO company would be well advised to prevent players from buying ANYTHING in game with real cash. It only cheapens their game world in the long run, and it's the long term players (not the ones who just want to hit lvl 50 and move onto the next new game) who will keep the developers and shareholders in paychecks as the years roll by.

Unfortunately, as we have seen in Aion (as a current example), players love to buy (read: cheat) their way to end game or just 'better' gear. Otherwise there would be no market for all these gold spammers the Aion forums keep talking about.

Out of interest, exactly who is it that is actually brave enough to give their credit card details to some disreputable 'company' (illegally trading inside another companies IP) based in god only knows what part of the 'developing world'?

As for the OP: Yes Vanguard (SOE) now has 'official' RMT. Is it a good thing?

No.

Will I buy and subscribe, month after month, to a new game that comes along that has RMT?

Not unless there is absolutely NOTHING better on the market.

Is there anything better than Vanguard on the market at the moment?

Nothing that I want to play.

RMT stands for [R]eal [M]oney [T]ransactions.  

It is not limited to just the selling of gold or limited to only when the company running a game does it.  Players selling items, gold and characters to other players is absolutely RMT.  It is even worse, because it turns regular players into gold farmers, something no company wants.

When a company actively endorses something that turns a game into a job it cannot in any way shape or form be considered healthy design or positive gameplay mechanics.  There is no amount of polish that will make that turd look pretty.  Station ecxhange mechanics take the play out of the game and put work in its place. 

That is the worst form of design philosophy that a company can take.  It doesn't matter what spin or rationale they try to us.  We can debate the effects it has on the game, but the truth is RMT puts real world work into a something people join to escape the real world.

I thought this horse had already been whipped to death long ago when Live Gamer came out about 10 months ago.

Philosophically  I agree with the people that do not care for RMT, but in practice I find this has very little impact on the game.  I think the only thing it has affected is the professional gold farmers had been pretty much been put out of business.  I dont think I have received a gold spam in chat for 8 months. 

I look at Live Gamer once in a while out of curiosity to see what kind of action is there.  Its actually pretty sad.  I usually see less than 6 characters for sale that never seem to move.  I do not think I have ever seen items listed.  If gold is being bought/sold then It would surprise me and if some of the cash is going to regular players rather than professional gold spammers then I dont really mind.

Cold calling people on the phone trying to sell magazine subscriptions is probably more profitable than trying to make money from an MMORPG, and I doubt anyone is trying to make a living from it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

When a company actively endorses something that turns a game into a job it cannot in any way shape or form be considered healthy design or positive gameplay mechanics.  There is no amount of polish that will make that turd look pretty.  Station ecxhange mechanics take the play out of the game and put work in its place. 

 

That is the worst form of design philosophy that a company can take.  It doesn't matter what spin or rationale they try to us.  We can debate the effects it has on the game, but the truth is RMT puts real world work into a something people join to escape the real world.

The plain and simple  truth is, some people actually like it. Otherwise, how do you explain the labour intensive harvesting and crafting that people choose to do?

It's not really that unusual. Many real world hobbies are really nothing more than time sinks. Why shouldn't certain aspects (optional aspects, preferably!) of playing MMO's be any different?

Involving real world money (RMT) in time sink activities is the bad thing. At that point, you are playing in the same unpleasant psychological swamp of slot machine (or similar) gambling.

Well, a few things,

all popular games have rmt. I know that players think that there is some magic bullet for the proglem or if "if private servers can get rid of it then why can't professional companies", but I think these players are telling themselves stories.

For instance "wow doesn't have bots". Hell, of course it does. With such a huge playerbase any gold selling company is going to go all out to make sure that they can provide for wow customers who want to purchase gold. And if they can use a bot instead of hiring one person per character then they are going to do that.

Private servers are often "iffy" at best and their work can be wiped out at a moments notice. It doesn't make sense for a gold company to go to a private server as an official server will offer better stability for their business. And from what I've seen from some private servers, one can donate money and get a variety fo benefits so again it doens't make sense for a private gold sellng company to set up shop.

So again, all popular games seem to have some level of gold selling. Vanguard's is just sanctioned by the company. In any of these games, if you are inclined to dwell on these things, you are going to be looking at people's gear or levels and wondering if they attained these things legitly. I have no time for such nonsense and don't care quite honestly.

Becuase if they spent 15 hours per day in the game getting these things or if they spent 15 dollars to get these things, in the end, they still have these things. In a pvp game that might be more of a worry but in a pve game it really doesn't affect me at all and I just don't care.

Vanguard offers a somewhat different type of game world than many (most?) games out there. The gameplay and world alone are enough to make me subscribe. If it was a popular game then there would be 3rd party rmt and there would be little I could do about it. As it stands there is rmt where money is going to players. Still doesn't affect me or my play in the least bit.

And as I mostly solo and explore the world on my own, occassionally helping other players, it doesn't matter to me that some guy has purchased gold for "the sword of infinite death" and is happily doing some dungeon on the other side of the world. My gameplay will not change whether or not he has this sword and there is a decent chance that I will never even know that he spent 15 dollars for the gold to get the sword.

In the end I simply don't care.

If the game was a pvp game then that would be a bit different as not only can one put time in the game but they can also pay for advantages. That can quickly imbalance the game where you have regular hard earned gear but the person who has a huge bank account can out level you and out gear you. Still, in the end, regardless of whether a company sanctions rmt or not, gold buying exists and I still might get rolled by someone who has purhcased gear with purchased money.

So then nothing has changed except who gets the real life money in the end.

And if the rmt in Vanguard is helping the game to stay afloat then I actually support it as I don't want this game to go away. I enjoy it too much.

A whole lot of rationlizing going on.  Great if you have learned to live with it, think it doesn't do this or that or whatever else gets you through your gameplay.

What I said above is still holds true.  

Something to think about.  People are claiming live gamer was done to help safeguard players from scams, but at the same time RMT companies gave up on vanguard long ago and there was no rmt.  

Livegamer just brings a problem to vanguard that was already gone, doesn't protect anyone from anything and is just a bad design for a game.  Monetizing players gameplay is just plain silly and goes against just about everything in video games.

Also please note- I did a little "comparison" shopping and buying items from Station Exchange is much more expensive than 2 gold selling sites I checked.

I dont buy/sell gold (or play VG anymore) but its funny that you can get it for nearly HALF price off the first 2 gold sites that popped up on Google- NOW, you can argue about "saftey" and what not (which is the same argument Pharmacuetical companies use to tell me I cant buy Presciption Drugs from Canada for less than half price) but I'm not buying it.

So, if someone was caught buying (cheaper) from a gold selling site would they be banned? Since selling is legal in game (only through SOE) why is it so much more expensive.

Originally posted by Daffid011

A whole lot of rationlizing going on.  Great if you have learned to live with it, think it doesn't do this or that or whatever else gets you through your gameplay.

What I said above is still holds true.  

Something to think about.  People are claiming live gamer was done to help safeguard players from scams, but at the same time RMT companies gave up on vanguard long ago and there was no rmt.  

Livegamer just brings a problem to vanguard that was already gone, doesn't protect anyone from anything and is just a bad design for a game.  Monetizing players gameplay is just plain silly and goes against just about everything in video games.

 

 

I think what holds true is that its a problem for YOU.

As the above poster has mentioned; there is still gold selling going on at other RMT sites.

Originally posted by morpin

Originally posted by Daffid011

A whole lot of rationlizing going on.  Great if you have learned to live with it, think it doesn't do this or that or whatever else gets you through your gameplay.

What I said above is still holds true.  

Something to think about.  People are claiming live gamer was done to help safeguard players from scams, but at the same time RMT companies gave up on vanguard long ago and there was no rmt.  

Livegamer just brings a problem to vanguard that was already gone, doesn't protect anyone from anything and is just a bad design for a game.  Monetizing players gameplay is just plain silly and goes against just about everything in video games.

 

 

 

I think what holds true is that its a problem for YOU.

As the above poster has mentioned; there is still gold selling going on at other RMT sites.

True, I think RMT is bad for games and that company supported RMT is even worse.

Another truth is that soe labels rmt a problem for their games, community, economies and gameplay.  At least that was SOEs official stance, until they realized they could make a cut of the sales.  Then without warning or explaination, they went on their little rmt crusade. 

At least I am consistant in my beliefs and don't need to find numerous excuses to look the other way. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by morpin

Originally posted by Daffid011

A whole lot of rationlizing going on.  Great if you have learned to live with it, think it doesn't do this or that or whatever else gets you through your gameplay.

What I said above is still holds true.  

Something to think about.  People are claiming live gamer was done to help safeguard players from scams, but at the same time RMT companies gave up on vanguard long ago and there was no rmt.  

Livegamer just brings a problem to vanguard that was already gone, doesn't protect anyone from anything and is just a bad design for a game.  Monetizing players gameplay is just plain silly and goes against just about everything in video games.

 

 

 

I think what holds true is that its a problem for YOU.

As the above poster has mentioned; there is still gold selling going on at other RMT sites.

True, I think RMT is bad for games and that company supported RMT is even worse.

Another truth is that soe labels rmt a problem for their games, community, economies and gameplay.  At least that was SOEs official stance, until they realized they could make a cut of the sales.  Then without warning or explaination, they went on their little rmt crusade. 

 

At least I am consistant in my beliefs and don't need to find numerous excuses to look the other way. 

It doesn't have to be an excuse. People disagreeing with you dont' automatically fall in the "they are deluding themselves" category.

Oh you might think so but not everyone is scandalized that a game company has introduced rmt. Especially when more and more of them are going to be doing it.

Heck, once again, when I spoke to Jeffrey Steefel at Pax (got a lot of intereting info from him) he indicated that rmt is a wave of the future for games and that more and more game companies would be using it.

DDO has it now to a certain extent, I think the new Star Wars will use it, Champions Online has some sort of rmt.

At some point you will have to either accept that a certain amount of it is going to be introduced into these games or you will have to stop playing. I have a feeling you will stop playing. That's fine.

But as I've mentioned before, cable television came out with the selling point of no commercials. Well, it has commercials. I could either stop watching it or just roll my eyes and focus on the content I am interested in.

They did this to Vanguard because 1) It's SOE, SOE is pushing RMT onto all their games present and future.   2) Vanguard has a very low player population and in order to keep the game up and running, and not get closed down like the matrix did recently, they need additional revenue.

Combine 2 together, voila, RMT.  If enough people start playing Vanguard, as in the population becomes healthy in the future, you can bet SOE will implement some sort of online card trading game (another form of SOE RMT).  It's just the way it is.  As long as Smed is head of SOE, this will continue.

I'm playing EQ1 because I love the game, not because I like SOE.

*sigh*

Live Gamer is not an Item Mall/Shop/What-have-you.  It is a player-to-player transaction service where anything posted on there had to have been earned in the game.  Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, the only items (and I've seen a couple of items) that can be uploaded and sold via Live Gamer are items that can be normally sold via the in-game global exchange.  The only core difference here is by what means a player pays for the items.

So if you have a problem with a player purchasing "Uber Sword of Awesomeness" on Live Gamer, if you're following this same principle through, you'd have to have a problem with people buying said item on the in-game global exchange.  Because of course if you buy it (via LG or GE) you clearly haven't directly "earned" the item itself (nevermind that you earn in-game gold or real world cash for these reasons amongst others).

And if you really want to look at broad sweeping principles, we're all paying real world cash for everything regarding these games.  Not just to play the game, but to play the game to get these items.  That's the nature of a pay-to-play.

About the only "extra" thing Live Gamer facilitates is a guarantee of service in regard to selling these items.  Without LG, you can still purchase characters and gold and items for real world cash...the difference is that beforehand you had no guaranteed way of assuring that you received said items, etc.  Now it's all on the up-and-up and people don't have to worry that someone is scamming them.

But LG in Vanguard is nothing new...it's been around for months and has had no noticeable effect on the game, because what it facilitates is nothing more than what people were already able to do before its existence.  It just adds in protection for legitimate buyers/sellers and allows SOE a cut of the cash.  Really, the way people go on about this, they must be in as much of a snit with the in-game global exchange.  That's...pretty sad that they'd be so consumed over what others have that they'd let it ruin the game for them.

Originally posted by Abalis 

So if you have a problem with a player purchasing "Uber Sword of Awesomeness" on Live Gamer, if you're following this same principle through, you'd have to have a problem with people buying said item on the in-game global exchange.  Because of course if you buy it (via LG or GE) you clearly haven't directly "earned" the item itself (nevermind that you earn in-game gold or real world cash for these reasons amongst others).

I think you missed the issues people have with Real Money Transaction.  If someone chooses to spend their time to farm for money ingame, and to buy an item on the market, they still spent the time ingame to do it.  That's a lot different than someone entering their credit card, and having the advantage over others through their bank accounts.  There's absolutely no comparison in the two and I don't know how you could even try to reason it out the way you did.

People have problems with real money transaction, and SOE is only doing this because they can make a buck out of it.  No need to make excuses, twist reasons, or to call it anything more than what it is.  They did it to make money, not because they care about you or some ingame principles.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by Abalis 

So if you have a problem with a player purchasing "Uber Sword of Awesomeness" on Live Gamer, if you're following this same principle through, you'd have to have a problem with people buying said item on the in-game global exchange.  Because of course if you buy it (via LG or GE) you clearly haven't directly "earned" the item itself (nevermind that you earn in-game gold or real world cash for these reasons amongst others).

 

I think you missed the issues people have with Real Money Transaction.  If someone chooses to spend their time to farm for money ingame, and to buy an item on the market, they still spent the time ingame to do it.  That's a lot different than someone entering their credit card, and having the advantage over others through their bank accounts.  There's absolutely no comparison in the two and I don't know how you could even try to reason it out the way you did.

 

People have problems with real money transaction, and SOE is only doing this because they can make a buck out of it.  No need to make excuses, twist reasons, or to call it anything more than what it is.  They did it to make money, not because they care about you or some ingame principles.

Frankly, I'm confused as to why it should matter.  Someone had to work their butts off in real life to earn that cash, too, and ultimately you're still paying for everything you "earn" in-game with real world cash.  That's the reality of playing a pay-to-play.

Never argued with SOE doing it to make money, either, but don't pretend it has no benefit for players and the only reason SOE did it was to make money.  It's disingenuous, because clearly the system does have benefits, which I outlined.  I also outlined that Live Gamer offers nothing more than what was already available before its existence.

Originally posted by Sovrath 

 

It doesn't have to be an excuse. People disagreeing with you dont' automatically fall in the "they are deluding themselves" category.

Oh you might think so but not everyone is scandalized that a game company has introduced rmt. Especially when more and more of them are going to be doing it.

Heck, once again, when I spoke to Jeffrey Steefel at Pax (got a lot of intereting info from him) he indicated that rmt is a wave of the future for games and that more and more game companies would be using it.

DDO has it now to a certain extent, I think the new Star Wars will use it, Champions Online has some sort of rmt.

At some point you will have to either accept that a certain amount of it is going to be introduced into these games or you will have to stop playing. I have a feeling you will stop playing. That's fine.

But as I've mentioned before, cable television came out with the selling point of no commercials. Well, it has commercials. I could either stop watching it or just roll my eyes and focus on the content I am interested in.

 

True some people love it and it doesn't bother them.  I recognize people disagreeing with me, because they don't mind it and others who have to rationalize their support of the system or rather turning a blind eye.  I'm trying not to point fingers, but I think it is being read that way.  My appologies if that is how it sounded as I am intending to speak in broader terms. 

As for it being the wave of the future that remains to be seen.  I'm not to worried right now, because developers seem to be counting their chickens before the eggs have hatched so to speak.  So many are getting gold fever from the speculation of what they can make they have lost sight of what gets players in the first place. 

DDO has it, because ddo was a failure.  CO has it as a result of a new chief who also failed with the same mechanics in Hellgate.  Almost every soe game has it and well just look at the results.  Frankly I am not seeing a lot of threats from these companies, but eventually I think you are right and I will have to make a choice.  Right now I don't have to.