Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Forum » General Discussion » one of the main reasons Vangaurd will never be what it could be....

Taking into account the final product, rather than what we had at launch (which was an unfinished unoptimized game) Vanguard would have likely been a direct competitor to EQ2.

The way SOE has kept Vanguard on the backburner since they acquired direct control over the game indicates to me that they really don't want this game to succeed beyond a game that operates in the black.  Of course they want it to make a profit, and it must , since its still in operation.  But many of the people that play it feel that it is a very successful game and would be more so had it more love from SOE.

Now, I know they did dump some developers at the title to finish it but they haven't marketed this game aggressively at all.  Its a much better sequel to EQ than EQ2 was.

From the fanfaire reports, to the promotional ads, its clear that Vanguard is an afterthought in the minds of most over at SOE.  After IOD they had a good chance to promote the game in the form of a relaunch and they didn't.

Vanguard will always be a good game that people have to almost stumble upon to find.

discuss.

I think you are correct.  A fully functional vanguard would have been very serious competition for the playerbase that makes up EQ2.  It is a much better attempt at an everquest sequal and it doesn't even have the lore of the game. 

There just isn't enough incentive for soe to every really invest into vanguard the resources it needs.  From the time sigil owned it to the moment they purchased it all soe would be doing is spending money to attract players it already has.  I personally think if vanguard had more time to get finished it would have done much better than EQ2 and maybe EQ, but that really doesn't make soe more money since most of those players were already soe subscribers.  Having them move to eq2 would just split the revenue with sigil.  

Yes, EQII does seem to get more loving than Vanguard, but it is really the new game development that has sucked the resources out of Vangaurd.

In this thread it lists the people who are associated with Free Realms.  Anyone recognize some old familiar faces? 

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=46935&#571375

Meet The Free Realms Team

Here is a list of the current SOE Staff Registered on these forums for Free Realms
Message edited by Sassums on 05/03/2009 12:33:59.

**Feel free to correct any information that is incorrect, or feel free to stop in an say hi)

Free Realms Team:

aclegg - Free Realms Team

Avair - Free Realms Team

cm - Free Realms Team

cmagoun - Combat Designer

CountZr0 - Free Realms Team

Derelict - Senior Programmer, Sony Online Entertainment

Ellyra

Elidroth_FR - Game Designer

ErikOlson

floydbishop - Senior Artist

Gebron - Free Realms Team

Ichie - Game Designer

Kicker - Character Artist

Kavhok - Free Realms Team

Kyren - Game Designer

kookiekiller - Free Realms Team

ladymango - Free Realms Team

Laralyn - Creative Director, Free Realms

Leeloo - Free Realms Team

LukeS - Free Realms Team

Mkae - Free Realms Team

Meatysaurus - Free Realms Team

Pex - Community Relations Manager, Free Realms (Aka: Community Guy)

Prathun - Game Designer

Roy_Eltham - Senior Engine Programmer

Scotty - Free Realms Team

Shift9 - Free Realms Team

Sites - Senior Producer, Free Realms

Superdad001 - Free Realms Team

Talisker - Free Realms Team

Tacos - Free Realms Team

TCG-Tom - Trading Card Game Developer

tbeans - Free Realms Team

tracywbush - Free Realms Team

WildcardG - Free Realms Team

**Those listed above have posted here on the FreeRealms Forum, any Community Relations Representative that posts here will be moved up to this list**

Free Realms Support Team

Amaranth - Support Team - Technical Support/Account and Billing

Arapawa (TSR-JeremiahJ) - Support Team - Technical Support/Account and Billing

Cashmere - Support Lead

Cerulean - Support Team

Charcoal (Referee Charcoal) - Lead/Supervisor - Free Realms Customer Support

Iceberg (TSR-JamisonW) - Support Team - Technical Support/Account and Billing

Mutato - Director, Global Customer Support

Rosivre - Support Lead

Rust - Subject Matter Expert - Free Realms

Scarlet (Moonlite) - Chief Referee, Senior Customer Service Manager

TSR-BradW - Support Team

Referee_Blue - Referee

Referee_Latte - Referee

Vermilion

Quality Assurance Team

Aerendar - Quality Assurance Supervisor

Stansilus - Quality Assurance

Wigin - Quality ASsurance

Wooper - Quality Assurance

Other Community Relations Representatives for Sony Online Entertainment (Community Ambassadors)

**These employees will probably not be posting here often, as they are responsible for other game titles**

Amnerys - Community Relations Representative

Ashlanne - Community Relations Coordinator

Brenlo - Director, Global Community Relations

Elias - Community Relations Representative, Star Wars Galaxies

Eovania - German Community Relations Representative

Gnobrin -Community Relations Representative

Gordo - International Community Relations Manager

Grimwell - Senior Community Relations Manager

Kytherea - Community Relations Representative

Minerva - Community Relations Manager, SOE Denver

Momochi - Senior Community Relations Representative, Japanese Community Relations Representative

Naylie -Community Relations Manager, Guide Liaison EQ, EQII, EQOA, Vanguard

Raijinn - Community Relations Manager, Vanguard

Rystall - Director of Artistic Development - SOE

Smed - President, Sony Online Entertainment

Soffrina - Community Relations Representative, French Community Relations Representative

Virrago - Senior Community Relations Representative

Zatozia - Community Relations Manager

Web Developers

eMonkey - Web Developer

ForumAdmin - Web Developer

Hammerfel - Web Developer

Sentinel - Web Developer
 

I just tried to make this point in the other thread....  I'll summarize here.

SoE is making a mistake if they think Vanguard and EQ2 are similar playerbases and serve similar MMO markets.  IF (if being the operative word) they think Vanguard and EQ2 are two pieces of a pie that doesn't get bigger no matter how they align resources to each game.... they are wrong.  They could make their pie bigger by investing more into Vanguard.

Yeah, some players would come from EQ2 if they could grow Vanguard faster, but I believe the majority of the player increase would be from those that tried it when it was buggy and had performance problems and/or those that left because they ran out of content.  Plus, if this game was ever 'Re-Launched' with some decent marketing it would appeal to many new players that have yet to try it.

Originally posted by boojiboy

I just tried to make this point in the other thread....  I'll summarize here.

SoE is making a mistake if they think Vanguard and EQ2 are similar playerbases and serve similar MMO markets.  IF (if being the operative word) they think Vanguard and EQ2 are two pieces of a pie that doesn't get bigger no matter how they align resources to each game.... they are wrong.  They could make their pie bigger by investing more into Vanguard.

Yeah, some players would come from EQ2 if they could grow Vanguard faster, but I believe the majority of the player increase would be from those that tried it when it was buggy and had performance problems and/or those that left because they ran out of content.  Plus, if this game was ever 'Re-Launched' with some decent marketing it would appeal to many new players that have yet to try it.

I agree completely.  There are many manufacturers with multiple competing brands in the same space.  VG and EQ2 have a great number of differences and if people leave eq2 for VG or vis versa SoE benefits by keeping the customer.  Fact is people play a game max out or get tired of it and look to move on.  Having two games might afford people the opportunity to bounce back and forth rather then leaving for a competitors game....  

Help me understand the differences between the two as you see them.

I played Eq2 a long time ago but I never got attached to any of my characters (it was the eyes .....the character model eyes.../shiver).

I think the biggest difference is EQ2's heavy use of instancing compared to Vanguard's open world.  That difference cannot be over-stated.  I tried so hard to like EQ2, but I just cannot stand instancing.

EQ2 feels linear to me.  Zones narrow-down to a lttle doorway or gate that you click on for the next zone.  Vanguard is completely open and seamless.  You can see across multiple chunks and see folks on their flying mounts as specks, see weather developing and mobs will follow you across the chunk lines.

I think EQ2 is much simplier in terms of combat, crafting, adventuring, raiding mechanics, quests, etc. 

Vanguard is more challenging and I get a much bigger risk vs. reward 'rush' when I play VG.

Those are the 4 biggest reasons to me and probably the 4 biggest reasons EQ2 failed to be EQ1's true successor.  It's also the reason why SoE is making a mistake if they believe these two games are similar and share the same MMO market.

EQ2 competes with WoW.  Vanguard has it's own market for the taking.

Originally posted by Rekindle

Taking into account the final product, rather than what we had at launch (which was an unfinished unoptimized game) Vanguard would have likely been a direct competitor to EQ2.

 

The way SOE has kept Vanguard on the backburner since they acquired direct control over the game indicates to me that they really don't want this game to succeed beyond a game that operates in the black.  Of course they want it to make a profit, and it must , since its still in operation.  But many of the people that play it feel that it is a very successful game and would be more so had it more love from SOE.

 

Now, I know they did dump some developers at the title to finish it but they haven't marketed this game aggressively at all.  Its a much better sequel to EQ than EQ2 was.

From the fanfaire reports, to the promotional ads, its clear that Vanguard is an afterthought in the minds of most over at SOE.  After IOD they had a good chance to promote the game in the form of a relaunch and they didn't.

Vanguard will always be a good game that people have to almost stumble upon to find.

discuss.

"Taking into account the final product, rather than what we had at launch "

Right there the thread doesn't work.

The game failed at launch, and *very* few games overcome a bad launch.

A poor launch, coupled with the game being a low priority of SOE, can not be made up by the game working well now.

eq2 had a bad launch as well.....i was there from beta to release.

Vanguard has over come its terrible launch because its still in existience as did EQ2. The difference is one was marketed and advertised the other wasnt.

EQ2 at release was no were near as bad as vanguards launch.  EQ2 was playable, it just wasn't very good.  The game design was poor and the game was unfinished, but vanguard was unplayable on top of being unfinished in far more areas.  While it has more potential than eq2 you can't play with potential until it is actually implemented.

Honestly you could advertise both of these games during the superbowl and it wouldn't change much.  You can't remarket a game once it fails and marketing is not the reason either game ended up the way they did.  Booji said in another thread that you will find many people that say this game is the best pve mmo on the market.   If that were the truth more people would be playing it.  Obviously people find other games better for their subscription dollar which is why they are there and not here.

Vanguard isn't a gold mine.  It is a failed mmo that was purchased by a company that has no intention of developing it beyond minimum life support.

Originally posted by Rekindle

eq2 had a bad launch as well.....i was there from beta to release.

Vanguard has over come its terrible launch because its still in existience as did EQ2. The difference is one was marketed and advertised the other wasnt.

You're missing the point - neither EQ II or Vanguard have "overcome" their bad launches, as they both suffer from a lack of players.

Have they improved as games? Oh yes........but their player population is no where near what they should be.

If they games were not supported by a massive company like Sony ( which sees them as a minor advantage for their Station Pass concept ) their servers would be dramatically down-sized and a FTP discussion ( or game shut down ) would be in the works.

Originally posted by Rekindle

Taking into account the final product, rather than what we had at launch (which was an unfinished unoptimized game) Vanguard would have likely been a direct competitor to EQ2.

 

The way SOE has kept Vanguard on the backburner since they acquired direct control over the game indicates to me that they really don't want this game to succeed beyond a game that operates in the black.  Of course they want it to make a profit, and it must , since its still in operation.  But many of the people that play it feel that it is a very successful game and would be more so had it more love from SOE.

 

Now, I know they did dump some developers at the title to finish it but they haven't marketed this game aggressively at all.  Its a much better sequel to EQ than EQ2 was.

From the fanfaire reports, to the promotional ads, its clear that Vanguard is an afterthought in the minds of most over at SOE.  After IOD they had a good chance to promote the game in the form of a relaunch and they didn't.

Vanguard will always be a good game that people have to almost stumble upon to find.

discuss.

First off, SOE did not toss any new devs to VG. The same people who are working on VG currently used to be with Sigil, all they got were community folks (who are shared amongst all SOE games).

Second, VG is not a successor of EQ why? Because EQ was a success and VG wasn't. I feel shame when people say VG is the new EQ, its insulting.

Third, VG is no more challenging then EQ2 is. And they do cater to the same audiences, just VG happens to feel its audience enjoy mindless faction grinds.

After SOE acquired direct control over Vanguard they threw 50 devs, lent from the eq2 team to finish the job. After stuff was optimized they toned back the dev team to the current group.

All of this detracts from the main issue.  EQ2 was pretty rough at launch and far far more hard core than it is today (anyone remember group exp debt and /yell?).  Two things saved Eq2, additonal coding time to fix issues and change game play and a massive advertising campaign.  Vanguard has had the prior but it will never receive the latter.

This isnt really intended to be a discussion as to which game is better. Perhaps one could suggest that as reasons why EQ2 is doing better than Vanguard.....but I think they appear to be both equally good games. Personally I think Vanguard is a better designed shell that will never be fully maximized because Vanguard is the ugly duckling in the SOE family.

If i was in control i would not spend anymore resources on the game either.Where do you think they could possibly grab a larger player base from?

The game is what it is ,a much better product than WOW and a slightly better project than EQ2,and yet people choose to not play it,nothing your dev team can do to change that.People pick games for different reasons than quality,look at AION's buzz right now.Aion is a pathetic effort of a game,it grabs players based o na flying niche an supposed good looking graphics.Well the majority of people have always said it is about the game play,sp that would leave AION on the backburner to most games,so it is obviously a false assumption as to why people play games.

The REAL fact is people are followers to hype and masses.Even if Vanguard was turned into an EXACT 100% copy of WOW but with better graphics,do you believe for one minute the WOW fanbois would all of a sudden leave that game for VG?i don't for one minute,so it proves people have no real clue as to why they play,it's just like i said ,they follow the masses and the hype.The other problem in gaming minds is the majority of the public act liek a game is real life,they are afraid to leave behind their old characters  in their game,becasue they don't like the idea of starting another game from level 1,even if it is a better game.

What happens over time is a slow exodus,eventually players start to leave the old games for newer ones,JUST because they are new,they could offer the EXACT same game,but because they are new,people will give it a go.Right now WOW still holds such a large percentage of the player base,it is very hard for a new game to gather a large following and almost impossible for an older release to gather a new following.It is just mathematics and economics,Vanguard really has no chance to ever turn it around,so sinking more resources into it ,is a no win situation and i believe SOE knows this.

All that aside ,i believe VG is arguably the best effort of a game on the market,EQ is the game all others copy and FFXI is the most unique MMORPG on the market.WOW is just a copy that the masses have followed each other into over hype and what i believe to be 100% falsified numbers on WOW's launch,in order to further the hype.Blizzard has been sued before for falsifying books to manipulate stocks/worth,are involved in a law suit right now and have just been sued this last week from the China govmnt,so ya i wouldn't trust anything Blizzard says.

Im glad its not on everyones radar screen in my opion its one of the best kept secerets of mmo's.

ps I fail for spelling Vanguard wrong in the thread title.

Just a few responses to some points being made above:

• EQ2 was also buggy at launch, but it was still launched in much, much shape than Vanguard was.  EQ2 was a crashfest at launch and was (and still is) a much smaller world than VG.  But EQ2 at launch also had a decent amount of polish and most everything worked as intended.  On the other hand (and people tend to forget), almost everything was broken at launch with VG and tons of players quit before level 5.  It was damn near unplayable even on the best puters.

• SoE threw a lot of there own resources at VG to fix it after they took it over.  It wasn't just the Sigil team, it was also experienced developers from EQ2 and some other SoE titles.  It was a swat team approach, and they made massive improvements, got APW out and a lot of other content.  But over time, SoE has dwindled the VG team back down to a small group.

• I see no reason why SoE couldn't make Vanguard a huge success even after it's disasterous launch.  EQ2 didn't end up with a small player-base because of a bad-launch, it ended up small because it was a huge disappointment for those that wanted a continuation of EQ.  EQ2 is not differentiated from other MMOs and thus splits that MMO market with several other MMOs.  Vanguard on the other hand is different than the standard cookie-cutter MMO and could draw in a huge number of players if SoE decided to ride that horse.

• Marketing makes a huge difference in subscriptions.  We, the people that use forums like this, forget that the vast majority of MMO players, or potential players, don't read MMO forums and have no idea about MMOs except for the ones they see advertised in magazines or TV or those that dominate shelf space.  Every day in region chat there are new players saying something like, "wow, this game is great, and can't believe I didn't know about it".  You see that sentiment on the boards too.

Originally posted by Rekindle

Taking into account the final product, rather than what we had at launch (which was an unfinished unoptimized game) Vanguard would have likely been a direct competitor to EQ2.

 

The way SOE has kept Vanguard on the backburner since they acquired direct control over the game indicates to me that they really don't want this game to succeed beyond a game that operates in the black.  Of course they want it to make a profit, and it must , since its still in operation.  But many of the people that play it feel that it is a very successful game and would be more so had it more love from SOE.

 

Now, I know they did dump some developers at the title to finish it but they haven't marketed this game aggressively at all.  Its a much better sequel to EQ than EQ2 was.

From the fanfaire reports, to the promotional ads, its clear that Vanguard is an afterthought in the minds of most over at SOE.  After IOD they had a good chance to promote the game in the form of a relaunch and they didn't.

Vanguard will always be a good game that people have to almost stumble upon to find.

discuss.

I Think you are speaking as a fan and not looking at it in its true form. SOE is all about money, if they could make it a Hit, They would. The bottom line is bugs were fixed too little too late. {If fixed at all} Better Sequel? Well it looks like a clone of EQ2 only doesn’t run as well. Fan boys will always try to make this game look better than what it is. For those who like the game, Great, Enjoy. If this game was going to do anything it would have done it a long time ago. People don't want to go backward, they wish to move forward. Maybe if they make a sequel {doubtful} and learn from the first fail, they may have something. I'm not trying to bash the game but I hate posts like this. SOE is a business, and if they can make more money off of a product, they would. They keep it going for the fans of the game to make a profit, but they are not about to throw good money after bad to try and fix it.
 

Originally posted by boojiboy 

• I see no reason why SoE couldn't make Vanguard a huge success even after it's disasterous launch.  EQ2 didn't end up with a small player-base because of a bad-launch, it ended up small because it was a huge disappointment for those that wanted a continuation of EQ.  EQ2 is not differentiated from other MMOs and thus splits that MMO market with several other MMOs.  Vanguard on the other hand is different than the standard cookie-cutter MMO and could draw in a huge number of players if SoE decided to ride that horse.

 

• Marketing makes a huge difference in subscriptions.  We, the people that use forums like this, forget that the vast majority of MMO players, or potential players, don't read MMO forums and have no idea about MMOs except for the ones they see advertised in magazines or TV or those that dominate shelf space.  Every day in region chat there are new players saying something like, "wow, this game is great, and can't believe I didn't know about it".  You see that sentiment on the boards too.

 

 

• Vanguard is just as cookie-cutter as the next game.  It has the same exact combat system, quest system, item system, etc etc etc.  It is cut from the same exact cloth as every other game.  The only strength vanguard has is the view distance and borderless world that make it appear to be much bigger than most games.  The classes are pretty good, but at the same time lack customization.  The crafting is a bit more in depth for those that enjoy a longer crafting process, diplomacy is interesting for a while and the dungeons are big, but at the same time lack something.  Beyond that Vanguard doesn't really out do any other game on the market. 

• There are plenty of people who know about vanguard right now.  The fact that they don't play it says something.  If the game was some sleeping giant that you think will explode into some massive mmo it would have already happened.  As it stands now the game can't even attract the people who do know about it, so odds are pretty good that marketing won't work either.  If the game was so great, more people would play it.  It is just that simple.  You can't advertise people into playing something, you can't market good word of mouth.  Advertising will get people to try the game, but it will not retain them.  You can see eq2 players saying the same thing right now "if eq2 were marketed it would gain hundreds of thousands of players".  While anything is possible I don't think that will happen.  A 5 year old game isn't going to double its population with an add campaign.  A 2.5 year old game that has never and will never see an expansion isn't going to swell populations with some advertising.

Originally posted by Daffid011

• Vanguard is just as cookie-cutter as the next game.  It has the same exact combat system, quest system, item system, etc etc etc.  It is cut from the same exact cloth as every other game.  The only strength vanguard has is the view distance and borderless world that make it appear to be much bigger than most games.  The classes are pretty good, but at the same time lack customization.  The crafting is a bit more in depth for those that enjoy a longer crafting process, diplomacy is interesting for a while and the dungeons are big, but at the same time lack something.  Beyond that Vanguard doesn't really out do any other game on the market. 

 

Totally disagree on this one.    Vanguards has some very unique classes and game play dynamics.  The combat system is also the best out there in that it requres some actual thought and has many unique features.   Classes play very differently and each class seems to have some unique aspect that makes them fun.  Like bards making spells, rogues making poisons & devices, blookmages doing wierd shit, shaman diety choices, monk, disciple jin.  Then there is counterspelling.  Multiple chain paths in combat making you think.  Defensive abilities, pary triggered abilities, crit abilities, there are many options.  Then there is a weakness system that adds to group combat enabling one class to setup a weakness that anohter class can exploit.  Itemization in VG is great, dungeons are top notch, etc...

So many areas I find myself agreeing with you but this is one I don't.  I think VG has one of the best combat systems in the industry.  Runner ups in my opinion would be LoTR, Wow, eq2 for picking top games.

There are plenty of examples of combat systems with chaining abilities together, counter spells, defensive moves, parry triggered abilities, etc.  It is all out there right now and not really unique or very different from most other fantasy mmos.  Anyone who has played another game will pick up on vanguards combat system within minutes.  A few days more will teach the small differences between it and other games like vulnerabilities which is about the only real difference.  Hotkeys with abilities and cooldowns that are best used in certain sequences.  The same as other games of this nature and thus just as cookie cutter.

Also I didn't say vanguard classes were bad, I think they are great.  Really I love them and I think it is one of the games greatest strengths.  Few games actually make the classes different enough from each other so they don't just feel like watered down versions of the same thing.  The customization is still limited even with the few path choices the game offers.  Each shaman that choses a diety will be exactly the same as any other shaman of that diety for example.  That is why I mentioned it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

• Vanguard is just as cookie-cutter as the next game. 

That indicates a serious lack of understanding of Vanguard and other MMOs.

I don't think Vanguard has a chance of becoming a very popular game any more... Not EQ-popular (meaning its old days) anyway. Most of the new MMO player base seems disinterested in its mechanics, how the game flows and the quality of the artwork. I encouraged many friends to try it out but not even *one* stayed with the game. It was a big, big surprise to me. These people included newbies to the genre as well as experienced MMORPG players, even EQ old timers.

It's interesting to see, butI'm beginning to think the classic EQ paradigm is just not that attractive to a lot of people anymore. And WOW seems to be sucking nearly all the player base that's not grown tired of it. I'm aware that WOW is very different to EQ and EQ2 is quite distinct from Vanguard, but you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of MMO players now who feel any new product from the Diku model is too samey for comfort. Hence we have a lot of people who are waiting for the "next thing". 

I think Vanguard failed at a critical time. If it had impressed at launch, it could have a strong community and keep healthy player numbers... The growing need for paradigm shift has put the last nail in its coffin, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by boojiboy

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

• Vanguard is just as cookie-cutter as the next game. 

That indicates a serious lack of understanding of Vanguard and other MMOs.

Feel free to explain why if you think it is that way.

I see yet another diku mud based mmo that has added its own small twists and flavor.  Just like every other fantasy mmo has been doing for the last 10 years. 

I think you see things through rose colored glasses friend.

Well I had fun with my time in Vangaurd, but it just wasn't being completed as it should have been by SOE.   Like SOE does with a lot of their games they feel are not doing so good they mothball them.  They do the minimal amount necessary to keep it operational and then let it be.   Vangaurd could have been a great game, only problem is it just isn't finished and SOE probably never will finish it.