In San Diego, Sigil speaks about travel, diplomacy, SOE and more
I had an interesting experience this past week, when I flew from Halifax to San Diego to attend an event being hosted by the people at Sigil Games and SOE for the upcoming MMORPG, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
When we arrived at the event, we were treated to a viewing of the game, as we watched the screens as someone controlled the avatars, we listened to Sigil President and Executive Producer Jeff Butler and Sigil CEO and Executive Producer Brad McQuaid as they discussed the game and answered questions from those reporters in the audience.
Immediately upon seeing the game in action, I was blown away by the graphics, from the realistically blowing trees and grass to the impressive horizon, which we were told holds actual locations in-game. In general, they said, any place that you can see on the screen, even in the distance, can be reached, either through walking, flying mounts, or by some other means. While you might not have instant access to everything, the developers want to give people at least a look at what's out there so that they will be curious, and strive to find a way.
Travel
Speaking of flying mounts, because it was the most efficient way to show us the game world, nearly the entire demo took place while flying on one. Naturally, that sparked some good information on them and their place in the game. Watching the gameplay, it was inevitable that people would start asking questions. We learned that it was likely that the flying mounts would probably not have unlimited stamina, which means that they would only be able to fly for a certain distance before becoming "tired" and having to rest. Flight is also not a "free pass" for travel. There are NPCs and monsters that fly, who can and probably will attack you, possibly knocking you from your seat which can be pretty dangerous from any height (Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters take falling damage as well).
While we're talking about one mode of travel, we may as well talk about them all. With a world as large as the one in Vanguard, and a seamless one at that, travel is one of those things that is going to become an issue. There appear to be four different modes of travel: flying mounts (as we talked about above), land based mounts (we saw some cool-looking horses), one's own two feet (for the exercise), and sea-based travel. Boats are another area that received a lot of extra attention in the showing. With the vast oceans, we are told that there will be teleporters available so that players don't have to spend hours on the open seas to reach a destination. From what I understood, they will be fixed location teleporters that will be placed in different locations in the water. We were also told that there would be no ship to ship combat at launch, and that was clarified when they told us that you could be boarded (or board someone else's ship), but the actual ships themselves would not be firing cannons and ramming one another. Crafters will also be pleased to hear that these boats are actually craftable items.
Diplomacy
As many people will tell you, in order for a game to be successful in a crowded MMORPG fantasy market, it has to have some kind of hook, something new and exciting, to get players interested and to keep their interest. Vanguard seems to take this into account with their new Diplomacy system, which joins Adventuring and Crafting as areas for advancement. Diplomacy is meant to give the cities more meaning.
"No matter how great an adventurer you are," it was explained to us, "you can't just force your way in to see the king, you need to look the part, you need to have the diplomacy abilities."
This means that diplomacy will provide avenues for gameplay that adventuring can not provide.
Housing
Each character in the game will be allowed to own one home in a designated location. While there will be "lots of options" for player housing, near the safety of the city or in the seclusion of the wilds, ultimately, it's the developers who decide what areas can be built upon. One of the nice features of housing is the fact that they are not instanced zones, but rather exist openly along with the rest of the world. There is an expectation that there will be a housing market, as players compete for and trade for the most desired locations.
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When we arrived at the event, we were treated to a viewing of the game, as we watched the screens as someone controlled the avatars, we listened to Sigil President and Executive Producer Jeff Butler and Sigil CEO and Executive Producer Brad McQuaid as they discussed the game and answered questions from those reporters in the audience. ;)
;)
Thank you very much for asking the SOE question. I am one of those former SWG players that decided not to buy the game because of SOE's involvement. It was really sad actually, almost all of our guild was looking forward to reuniting in Vanguard, however, once the SOE/Sigil partnership was annouced, our interest in the game dissappeared over night.
For me personally, Sigils assurances that SOE won't be making any design decisions, even if I believed it, simply isn't enough. By subscribing to Vanguard I would be paying SOE some of my subscription dollars. Because of SOE's conduct with regard SWG, I am not going to do business with them, even if that means not playing a game I would otherwise have loved.
As for Sigils assurances, while I believe them that is the current argreement. However, that doesn't mean it will always be that way. Since getting burned by SOE in SWG, if there is any significant reason not to trust the developer, I am simply not going to take the risk of what happened in SWG (years worth of effort erased overnight) happening again. Even Sigils's in house lawyer concedded that wouldnt' rule out selling Vanguard to SOE in a few years.
It really is unfortunate as I think I really would have enjoyed playing Vanguard. I guess it wasn't meant to be. I would wish you luck, but since sucess for Vanguard means sucess for SOE, I can't do that either.
"They are saying is that while it is their goal to create a challenging game, it is also important that players have fun. It is their job to find a balance between the two. Where that balance lies, we are told, will depend on how much challenge the market will bare."
I have to point out that line. As it reads to me "How mush of a time sink people will put up with".
I’m sure ill get flamed. But that’s how it reads to me going by the information on the site about the game and the article. The more i read about the game, the more it sounds like a job. Its a shame too.
I will stll try it when it comes out, and ill make my final judgment then on if this is a game that i CAN play given my lifestyle.
First of all. While I understand that people were abused by SOE while playing SWG, if VG looks like a game you would "love" as you say then not playing it simply because SOE is making some money off of it is stupid. If you know you'll like a game, why not play it. I understand not subscribing to a game SOE is making, has made, or has complete control of but this just isn't the case. I am a huge SOE hater and SWG player myself but when they talked about how no other publisher has experience like SOE I knew they were right. Sorry but not playing a game you could love because SOE has something to do with it is just silly.
Secondly, this is definately going to be a more hardcore mmo. But about the housing thing, if people devote more time, they are going to get more rewards understandably. Why wouldn't they? Why should someone who only plays 10 hours a week get as many rewards as someone who plays 30? While I definately don't have enough time to be playing 30 a week I still understand why hardcore gamers could get more than casual, and its not a big deal.
But no other decent MMO is coming for at least 1 year from now , except for Vanguard and LOTRO.
Lotro will probably be shit. So we will probably all end up playing Vanguard at least for little while...
And for power gamer focus in Vanguard. Well good , on the end only the hard and dificult games stay interesting for long time... Easy games like WOW wear out fast.
I consider my relationship to be at least equal, if not better, with SoE than what it was with Verant. From an EQ-experience, SoE is responsible for the AAs and LDoN...which completely outmatch everything else in EQ imo.
The game will be judged for itself from my perspective. When I repeat that a non-raiding server is a must, I really mean it. I would raise a few questions about FUN, see, if for an adventurer something is FUN, asking him to be part of a diplomacy system is edgy at best. I am willing to give them the credit of the doubt, I can endure a LOT of tedium anyway, from a personnal approach. But again, I am not sure they understand the FUN part enough, yet, grouping will be fun...if there is a non-raiding server, so even if everything else is flawed, I would prolly be happy and enduring all these downtime and tedium experience (unless they manage to be more horrible than raiding, I just can't see something that bad, but it must be possible). Making diplomacy FUN for a grouper is a challenge, I am willing to give them the chance, mostly because I can bear a critical mistake and a LOT of tedium if they misshap it.
EPIC is all good, as long as it doesn't replace the FUN for a player. Me, I can deal with a LOT of downtime and tedium, even with PvP...but won't deal with raiding even 5 minutes...I am quite unsure they understand that well (SoE does understand this tiny little part), see, enforcing a gameplay can rightfully be saw as tedium...anyway, if they put a non-raiding server, I will try it, if they don't, I will not even bother.
I will not defend SOE. I am one that never got SWG just because I saw how there were problems at release and never expected it to get better. I blame Lucas and his company for the problem more than I ever will SOE and no one can offer me a reason to change my mind. Lucas has a stranglehold on the Star Wars franchise and everything has to go through him.
Now as to Vanguard, it sounds like a game that I am really interested in. The whole thing about needing to earn the rights to things sounds like what I am interested in. I have to say that something that won't come easy sounds fun. A lot of people talk about graphics being more realistic then why can't an MMO need more of a challenge even if they seem like just time sinks. If there is a reward for doing the time then I have no problem with that. This sounds more like what I want in a game more and more.
I love when game developers do a demo of the game for an interviewer from the point of view of someone on a dragon mount and probably wearing high end gear. Look how much fun the game is once you have all this stuff! Of course, it may take you years (and probably never) to get that stuff, so what kind of a demo is that? Dark & Light probably rocks in a demo where you have everything cool in the game already.
Next time, why not say "let me experience the game from the perspective of a low level, casual character wearing crappy gear." Play that way for a while. Then write about how "fun" the game is.
To all the people who refuse to give it a chance just because SoE will market it, it just seems super silly...The game is going to be great, the game has somthing for everyone, and the game is developed by Sigil, NOT SoE in any way. While I understand everyone being upset at SoE about SWG, that's one big mistake, in a whole companies life, why can't you just get over it, and move on? That was YEARS ago...it's EXTREMELY SILLY to not play somthing just because it has an SoE tag on the box, SoE has a VERY good marketing team, and that's what Sigil is working with them for, it has nothing to do with developing the game, yes, they will make a little profit off it as it is a business deal....but seriously, if the game looks good to you, give it a try. SoE isn't touching development, it's been stated numerous times over and over, and it isn't fair to the guys at Sigil, for you to judge the game before it's even had a chance to go live yet, just because of SoE marketing it. That is, I say again, totally silly.
I am not a huge fan of SoE, either. But I am definantly going to play this game, reguardless, since I understand mistakes happen, bad decisions can be made with any company, weather it's SoE, Square-Enix, Sigil, Blizzard, EA/Mythic etc... Had SWG been with any other devs the same thing could of happend, and you would be blaming and refusing games from those companies instead......Please just get OVER IT, move on, and enjoy other games.
After reading this article, I am certain that Sigil and team know what they are doing. This game is their baby and they would not do anything to harm it.
If Brad, Jeff, and the rest of the Sigil Co. have absolute confidence that co-publishing with SOE is the best path for success, I'll be right behind them.
I will buy this game when it comes out.
If you think you'll like the game, might as well give it a try. I very much dislike SOE, didn't like what they did with EQ2, etc.. But I also realize that SOE has the money and equipment power, plus the experience for running multiple MMOG's throughout a 4-5 year span. The guy in the interview is right, SOE has more experience than most any other companies out there for running MMOG's. While we all have our own opinions about SOE's design decisions in games, it's good to hear Vanguard will be manning the design decisions.
I'll reserve my judgement on Vanguard later when I actually get to play it. But I"ll definately give it a try, it can't be THAT bad :D
Nope...
Not falling for it. Brad sold his dream to SOE so the game wouldn't be laggy?? OMG, did the man ever play EQ2 and try to move in Qeynos Harbor?
Pre launch hype! Rest assured a large part of subscription dollars will still end up in SOE's hands!
I have to agree with you myself. Brad's EQ was the king of the timesinks. I admit I loved playing it when it came out, but I just refuse to play anything where TIME becomes a needed skill.
As for $OE's involvement. I just do not believe them when they say there that $OE will not be making any decisions for them. They can make any claims they want, only time will tell.
I may give this a shot, a few months after it comes out and I can get a better sense of what they're doing. But personally, I'll never play another raid/time centric game again. And I'm a long ways from being willing to give any money to $OE again also.
I am not judging the game. I simply choose to not do business with SOE, at all. That's a choice I have made based on SOE coduct. SOE's conduct with regard to the NGE was at best unethical. I don't want to do business with a company like that. Unfortunately that decision has consequences and not playing Vanguard is one of them.
And its perfectly fair to Sigil. They have admitted they knew this decision was going to be controversial. They made the business decision that the advantages of partnering with SOE was worth the upsetting a good poriton of the fans. They are smart guys and I am sure they know their own company and what's in their best interest. I don't have a particular problem with Sigil per se, and if they one day decide to sever their relationship with SOE I might give Vanguard a try. Likewise if Sigil makes a game where they are not affiliated with SOE for that game, I'd also be willing to give that game a try.
I'm just not going to reward SOE for its bad behavior by doing business with them.
If you truly understood the magnitude and scope of SOE's actions with regard to the SOE, I don't think you would think my decision was silly, even if you still disagreed with that.
Dang, I'm thinking to try this game but I also had bad exp. with SOE' (costumer service) when i was playing eq 1&2. For the 8 months I was playing FFXI online i never had a problem with ENIX.Anyway back to the subject,I think what Sigil is trying to do is to bring the nostalgia from EQ to Vanguard but with SOE as partnership idk about that.Still i know a lot of ppl going to give it a try and maybe so do I.
If you had read the whole thing you would know that SOE will only publish and provide the servers. Customer service will be dealt by Sigil, and only Sigil can change the game.
To those saying that they only showed the developers high end content (flying around on mounts etc), Brad has stated on the official game forums that all the press members were also given beta accounts and started their own characters.
Once the NDA is lifted all these sites will be able to post up their actual experiences leveling a newbie character. It is only the NDA that is stopping them from saying more in their article. I'm sure they were given very specific instructions on what was allowed to be said and what was covered under the NDA.
As to the SOE thing. Most people fail to understand (although I've seen 1 person mention it) that Lucas is almost entirely to blame for SWG. Nothing gets done without his approval. In fact at the time where many of the worst changes went in, SOE and the developers had stated that they were pulling back from the game as Lucas was assuming a more direct creative control.
SOE is not blameless, but certainly in this instance as Sigil is keeping everything to themselves except hosting and billing there should be no reason people associate SOE with this game at all.
Some ideas to keep in mind
a.) What if Sigil allowed users to pay the Sigil company the monthly cost; would you play it?
b.) Those that decide to keep their Station Access can choose to do so, thus giving more money to SOE for all their games combined.
c.) I highly doubt that all revenue for the monthly income is going to SOE; where is Sigil making the money besides based on the sale of the game. Keep in mind that their Platinum Ediition of Vanguard (99.99) consists of 3 game keys so in theory they are losing money that way.
d.) SOE decided, after 7 years to create a Progession Server, one that had the lush new landscapes but everything based on when it was released to begin with. The only way you can gain extra zones, added features or whatever is do do quests that would complete your current expansion. For Example upon launch of the Progression Server I think the Planes of Knowledge wasnt available to them, Great Divide wasnt available and etc. So what I"m saying here is that whos to say that a few years down the road that SOE may create another feature about SWG; could you imagine the money they would be getting. Those that like the NGE can continue to play and those that left cause they dont like the NGE can play the old method :) Extra money for SOE if they bring it back
Now on to my questions about Vanguard.
1.) I was also under the impression that EQ2s housing would be out in the open as well, it showed a picture and or video feed that their crafting materials was out in the open (forge, etc) but yet as it turns out, it ended up being an instanced zone; is that what this is gonna be?
2.) Travel-I heard that there was gonna be vehicles, unless the word "vehicles" meant like ships??
SoE did a good job with EQ1 by and large, particularly in the technical hosting area, providing stable and largely lagfree, reliable service - I have no issue with them handling that, area they have a great track record for, in vanguard.
To all the SoE haters, I fully understand, the vehemence of your tone maks it sound like a first time betrayal reaction - I felt extremely strongly about EA butchering in my view Ultima Online, introducing trammel, trying to turn it more and more into diablo2 item/template based pvp, with grinding areas for key drops - rather than the player skill focused roots it began with. Don't worry you'll get over this betrayal because the next few will sting successively less and less, until you just realise, hey sometimes people just feel a need to fix things that aren't really that broken, it's just a shame that improving becomes reinventing sometimes.
I am not following you and many other objector's. I understand not wanting to pay to support SWG due to changes made to its game design. I would take my marbels and go home too. What I don't get is why you are saying no business with anyone affiliated with SOE and stopping there? SOE is a owned by Sony itself.
http://www.sony.com/index.php
Click on Online Games and you will see all SOE games including Vanguard listed there. A division of a company is still part of that company. Decisions are made from the top and roll down hill. You will not pay Sony money via its online division, but would you still pay it money from its movie division (Sony Pictures) or by purchasing one of its other merchandise like a Sony TV , Walkman, etc? I find it hard to imagine that all the people who are angry at SWG will really boycott all Sony products. If you want to hold a company responsible for unethical practice, hold the entire company responsible. For example, I boycott nestle products for what one of their divisions(Nestle Milk) are doing to breast-feeding women in third world countries. When I boycott Nestle products, I don't just boycott one division (milk making) but ALL their dvisions (including their water producing one). Next time you are in the grocery store look at labels and see how MANY of the damn brands there are owned by Nestle. If you are not prepared to boycott ALL Sony products then why are you not playing Vanguard?
It's pretty pathetic that we still have to answer those kind of us ignorant comment after 10 years of mmo.
First of all: It is an EXELLENT reason to not be playing ANY MMO that has SOE in the portrait or back ground. I don't buy Nike stuff because they exploit poor children to make their shoes. It's not the shoes that i don't like, it's the companies method behind. So boycoiting $OE for that same reason, even if you like their product is completely justified.
Secondly: There are still idiots in this world to claim that your playtime should "automatically" rewards you more. Well, you're a moron. From the moment you pay your subscribtion fee, you shouldn't get "more" just because you spend more time in front of your screen like a looser. If you haven't understand by now that your off-line time should be used in a MMO to reduce the discrepancy between hardcore and casual gamers, you have missed the train that is leading to the third generation. So go play your dinosaurus MMO and spare us your ignorance.
Well, I talk only for myself. But personnally, I think you are both right and wrong. See, why would someone play longer? There must be an incitative, and if someone can't meet the time requirement, saddly it mean they are off that incitative. This is why they put levels in the first place. I always think that a level cap ala CoV would be the brilliant move for any MMO, but seem that most games don't do it.
Reducing the discrepancy between hardcore and casual gamers: Well, that is quite a sentence there. If you mean "killing hardcore interest", it isn't that bad, but I obviously hope they will find a better way, that take into account the hardcores folks with more time to play or more skill to play (is hardcore used for time or skill...or both?), while they don't shaft casuals. I always believe a casual should be able to achieve a LOT and be as good as anyone can ever be in the game in precise topics (such as in precise areas, like a zone with a level cap). However to make the casuals the all-time champion of everything, it isn't that bad, but you will miss a lot of "retency". How do you get anyone hooked, including a casual, if they don't have to progress more? Progression must be INTUITIVE, easy to access...a loot system with spells and everything is having quite a hard challenge to be intuitive. By been intuitive, it is easy to access if you are as strong as possible for your level, or if you need more.
I was always a fan of unlimited levels (which Vanguard will never be) and level cap on every zone (which vanguard would prolly not be). At the moment you have an artificial limit, you prevent the "hardcore" to progress further. At the moment the casuals can't rule and be the best in something, you kinda shaft the casuals.
Casuals deserve any game to be built for them, in the sense that they can be the best of a zone, an area, something. However, it is also my opinion that a game would benefit if there is always more to earn, always more to get...which is why I always love unlimited levels. For example, everyone could be level 15 and equal in zone A, but in zone ZZZZXGDJFZZZ, someone might be level 5403294304 and use every benefit from each acquire level in that zone...
But that is just an old dream...an old rant...and I am sure most uber raiders will be happy to casually point out the flaws in my logic while exposing their raiding logic to the same flaws without understanding it and thinking that because it is raiding, it is suddenly better...while the casuals, they don't want to raid.
PS: I have about 0,03% of myself that is casual...so even if I try to encompass them, I am obviously kinda alien to casuals...despite all my stances for a non-raiding server! In doubt favor the casuals...but even the casuals want more progression, to never be done completely...so you must find a way to make sure that nobody is ever fully done, yet they are fully happy...I don't think a plain open system with no level caps and scores of loot that is hard to asset will please the casuals...yes I can be happy in that...but the casuals? I think they need ways to MASTER something...dunno if Vanguard will provide them a way to master anything...but we will see.
Basicly, when it comes to exploring and such, this game sounds like they came from a similar idea as Dark and Light, only improved apon it, not to mention with sounder gameplay.
I'm very eager to see how things will play out with being able to be attacked in the air, this certainly adds a new level of exitement. Also pleased with their Housing Market idea, which I first witnessed taking place with Asheron's Call, followed by Dark Age of Camelot and Horizons. Instance housing works for some games, but honostly it means so much more to have a seamless housing system (think how the SWG housing works where the inside of the house exists on another server point but there's no need for true zoning since the servers are tied together) with an actual house to call yours and not just a magical door that takes you away to your own place
I thank you greatly for this article, very well writen, very smart questions
Sounds to me like you have to camp faction or grind missions/tasks/quests to be able to get a house. Everyone from the start will be doing that to get a good plot for a house. And like it was said, the hardcore players will be doing that while the casual gamer who don't have the time or a some one new to MMOs will eventually get stuck with a plot that no one wanted. Sounds to me like not everyone will have a fare chance at getting the plot that they want. And if I read it right, you will be able to sell from your house like in SWG. If that is the case, the hardcore gamers that got their houses close to big cities will get most of the customers, just like in SWG.
Personally, I think just making enough money to buy a house is fare enough for everyone.
Far SOE goes. If your not gonna play a game cause SOE is involved then you shouldn't. I mean, how else are you gonna teach them a lesson except by hurting them where it counts...the wallet. That's fine enough if you're doing it cause you feel strong on the matter but in reality, you wont make a difference.
I hate what SOE did to SWG. But a mistake is just that. I believe they know they screwed up and I don't hold it against them. I quit playing SWG after that though. I'm still gonna play the game and give it a shot even if Satin was VGs partner in this..actualy, I bet Satin got some good ideas:)
1.) I was also under the impression that EQ2s housing would be out in the open as well, it showed a picture and or video feed that their crafting materials was out in the open (forge, etc) but yet as it turns out, it ended up being an instanced zone; is that what this is gonna be?
Housing is like SWG, you build houses in the world for all to see. No instances. Likewise with crafting, anvils etc are outside and can be used be everyone, again no instances.
2.) Travel-I heard that there was gonna be vehicles, unless the word "vehicles" meant like ships??
There will be ships (big ships and small boats), flying mounts, horses and pack mules.
"Diplomacy seems like another word for Faction Grind"
Not really, its more like a card game where you can influence NPC's to give better rewards, reduce the cost of items, allow your guild to build houses near their town etc. You dont have to grind it, you have to learn the skill and then you can use your skill (or card deck) to influence anyone from any faction. As far as I know new cards can be found on mobs or as quest rewards which will lead to you being better at it, as will unique Diplomacy only clothing.
"The game is currently nearly 20gb!"
Its uncompressed, unpacked etc for beta to allow them to tweak little areas without forcing people to redownload the entire pak files. By the time commercial release comes about I would expect it to be packed like any other game.
"And the graphics dont look as hot as I thought, especially for that size!"
Graphics have not been fully turned on yet for beta, alot of the effects and particles are missing as are some of the landscape textures. Give them time to switch these on and it should look better. Hopefully.
*all this info was found on the offical public vanguard forums.
The first thing that he wanted to say was that he has 11 Star Wars Galaxies accounts, and that he was the fourth Jedi on the planet Earth, first on his server, so he knows the perspective of people who are up in arms about the New Game Experience.
That's about the worse thing he could of said. Just makes me think he accepted all the crap SOE did before NEG. Sounds like another good game that instead of growing will be nerphed to crap within the first year.
I am kinda looking forward to this game as i am to almost all new games that have things i haven't seen before. I don't care who is maintaining the game as long as i like it.
sounds good to me and people that play more should get more just like ibn real life if you work more you should get payed more if you have the same job that is..
"Market will bear"
Casual gamers keep walking...nothing to see here.
I wonder if 4 hours a week, will "earn" you a flying mount, with your hard earned cash going into $OE's pockets?
Sorry I'm not buying the same old hype.
Hope Im wrong though.
He has 11 Star Wars Galaxies accounts? What a LOSER.
McQuaid on housing: "We're not content to just redo all the 'stuff that sucked' from Everquest, no no, we're importing 'stuff that sucked' from other games."
If you had read the whole thing you would know that SOE will only publish and provide the servers. Customer service will be dealt by Sigil, and only Sigil can change the game.
At least till they sell the game to SOE after a year, so they can go on with making another game.....
If your hardware suck the game will suck. Unless you have the hardware to back that opinion, its just plain bull.
Its just like saying 200mph sucks, thou your car only does 140mph....
Sorry I didnt realize my GeForce 7900gtx, Athlon 64 x2 4800, 3gb memory, and 4x 150gb Raptors sucked so much that my opinion doesn't count. My point was that the graphics shown so far don't justify the huge size of the client. The graphics look like a low end game from 4 years ago to me.
Sorry I don't see that as stupid. Stupid was all those EQ players who saw the game ruined by SOE, saw what became of EQ2 and THEN went on to try SWG just b/c they thought they would love it. I value my time and efforts and would not waste a single moment on anything that was touched IN ANY WAY by SOE. I have values and honor and I abide by them even if it means not playing a GAME. It may be a great game to start but when they sell it to SOE and it gets ruined what then?
There are TOO many games coming out in the next year or so for me to get all worked up about Vanguard. Some people are already saying how awesome this game is months before release! Sounds a lot like those fools over in the DnL forums who were spouting how awesome THAT game was going to be. Can you be of FANatic over a game you haven't actually seen any of the real mechanics? Sheesh.
While I was hopeful over vanguard I don't want another addiction. This seems dedicated to the hardcore 20+ hours a week players and thats not me. I gave up EQ b/c it took forever between getting anywhere and getting anything going, god forgive if you were in a PuG! If you only have an hour or two to play not many people want to spend a significant portion of that just getting to interesting content. I think there are other ways to make a game challenging then using boring tedium and time sinks.
It would be like getting punched in the face by someone using his right fist and then shaking his left hand because it's not that hand's fault.
No way.
K.
11 accounts? Hmmmm, sound to me like a community manager for a hyppies center!
Myself dont like what soe did to swg, but this is beginning to get silly, its a freaking game lol, get over it and enjoy life insted of all the negative things, myself droped the soe hate stuff,, i used alot of time to reach jedi, and bang game dead, it was enoying....... for a while... over it now
Great post about vanguard tho, cant wait to play it, and do RP
Hello all -- first thanks for the coverage MMORPG.COM! Was great to have you by and show you the game.
To everyone else, thanks for all of the comments and questions. Recently I and others posted a lot of Vanguard info in the Vanguard forums -- please check them out.
I also just recently updated a thread on our official sites where the first post has become sort of a master "I'm new to Vanguard and want to find out information about the game" post. It's got it all, and like I said, I just updated it to make it more readable and more comprehensive.
Please check it out at http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71778
thanks!
We've also been working on a general introduction to the game -- please give it a read and let us know what you think:
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Hello Everyone!
If any of these descriptions sound like you, I’d like to cordially invite you to check out the next big massively multiplayer game coming your way the first quarter of 2007…
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Many MMOG players may already know about Vanguard and are looking forward to launch, or the opportunity to play in beta. Many of these people, especially long time gamers, are already active in our community and avidly looking forward to the game. These folks already know what they want out of Vanguard, and they believe that we at Sigil will deliver.
But there are some people who don’t realize that Vanguard may be the perfect game for them. They’re the people who are enjoying one of the current MMOs, but are ready for something deeper and more challenging. Or they’re folks who’ve heard of Vanguard but are misinformed about the game due to some of the rumors floating around. If either one of those circumstances is the case, I want to take the time to introduce you to Vanguard, and provide some resources for accurate information. We’ve made an effort to get the word out about Vanguard, whether through interacting with people on message boards, or releasing series of screenshots and in-game videos, or doing interviews for print and Web publications. Now I’d like to invite you to check out this information. Of course we can’t make a game that’s all things to all players (and really, who’d want to), but it might surprise you to learn that Vanguard could be the game for someone like you.
And neither do we want to make a game that’s a copy or clone of a popular game that’s already out there--players want choices, and meaningful ones at that. And now we want to help you make an informed choice about what massively multiplayer game you’ll be spending your time playing early next year, because how you spend your time is important, especially in a virtual world. You’re not just spending time, you’re investing time, both in your characters and in the relationships you form in-game. Some people may not understand online interactive entertainment and still think of MMOGs as “just games,” but while those guys play catch-up, we know they’re really so much more: they’re online communities, and these people we game with are real whether they live across the street or in another country. And not only are they real, they’re our friends. These “games,” the good ones anyway, aren’t just games, they’re homes.
So no matter who you are, we want to reach out to you and pique your interest in Vanguard because we are confident it's going to change the face of massively multiplayer online gaming next year, and the year after that, and…well, you get the picture--we’re in this for the long haul. Our aim, quite simply, is to offer an alternative to an online gaming genre that is dominated by a few very large and quite excellent games right now (Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft come to mind). Why? Because life is about choices, and that’s especially true when it comes to entertainment.
And Vanguard itself is about choices, too. It’s about freedom of choice. It contains content and quests and adventures for all sorts of people: casual players, “core” players, and even those who spend a lot of time in these games raiding in large groups. We're all about making a world that is inclusive, not exclusive. Vanguard offers a freedom that players have never before experienced--you have a wide variety of races and classes to choose from, unparalleled capability to customize your character, and multiple ways of advancing your character, be it through traditional adventuring, or an exciting system of harvesting and crafting, or a brand new spin on gameplay called diplomacy, where you use your wits and not your sword to decide the outcome of events and make your mark on the world.
And on top of all of this, the world itself is so immersive it’s mind-blowing. Telon, the world in which Vanguard takes place, awaits all sorts of people who want to be part of a living, breathing, virtual environment, in which you can own your own house, ride or sail a ship anywhere as far as you can see, and even one day fly through the clouds on the back of a dragon, a winged horse, or any number of mythical creatures to the destination of your choice. There are virtually no limitations in Vanguard--you get what you put into it and so much more. The world of Telon takes the “massive” in MMOG and cranks it up to eleven. But it's not just big for the sake of being big; it's full of variety and laid out in a seamless environment where if you can see an interesting location miles away in the distance--a dungeon or a castle, or really anything interesting at all--you can always get there. Exploration has been missing in some games as of late, but travel in Vanguard has meaning.
But we didn’t stop there either; we expanded upon the traditional high fantasy we all love and included not just one continent with familiar Western European, Tolkien-esque and Arthurian settings, but also another continent that draws from the tales of the Arabian Nights, full of pyramids, hanging gardens, and hidden jungles filled with exotic intrigue...virtually the entirety of Persian, Egyptian, and other middle eastern mythology. And then we went nuts and didn't stop there either; there’s a third continent, this time with an Oriental twist, which forms a vast archipelago of islands. Picture yourself as a thief or a ninja or a merchant or pirate, sailing from one isle to the next, discovering new lands and even lost empires swallowed whole long ago by the sea.
I've given you but a taste of what’s in store for you the first quarter of 2007, but I promise you there's *so* much more...far, far too much to cover here. I’d have to write thousands of pages of history and lore and background and settings. I’d have to design detailed game mechanics and systems that build upon every bit of our experience making these games and then goes even farther into the next generation of online gaming. Ah, but wait! Our team of over 100 people have already done just that and built all of it into this game, and they’ve been pouring their hearts and souls into it for over four years (not to mention those who worked on games like EverQuest, who have been dreaming about a virtual world like this for over a decade)! In fact, we’ve planned so much that you’re not only going to have all of this to experience soon, but after the game launches we have both live and expansion teams ready to add new content to the game; content that has, to a great degree, already been planned out so we know what Vanguard will look like and offer not just in 2007, but for more than seven years to come.
So how do you find out more? The heck with design documents and quest scripts and all of the art and data that makes an MMOG tick – that’s what we work with in-house at Sigil. Instead, check out our web sites and other resources, with more and more information being revealed virtually every day. Head to www.joinvanguard.com and find out more about the game as well as www.vanguardsoh.com where there are movies, screenshots, a detailed FAQ to answer your many questions about the game, and a very active message board community with well over 100,000 members. Find out what opportunities there will be to get into beta at some point. Read what people are saying about the game. Check out the screenshots and the videos. And don’t just read the boards, participate and ask us questions. Yeah, we developers are really there, with many of us using one screen to work on the game and another to interact with YOU to make sure we’re making the game YOU want to play.
So what are you waiting for?
-Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Original Producer & Co-Designer, EverQuest
I am still waiting for you or another staff member to answer my question regarding self sufficient soloing crafting.
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/95513/page/17
You might want to explain your philosophy on investment of time to SOE as they seem to disregard that concept.
PS. I like your quote, it's similar in meaning to mine. How do you feel about gold selling and websites that promote it?
Wasn't the original EQ suppose to only be influenced by Verant, with SOE only being the financial support? What makes this setup any different? Have you people not learned your lessons yet with this whole business model? It has been proven with every MMO game out there that the financiers always end up having a say on how the game develops, sooner or later it happens to every single one of them.
I don't care how casual friendly he says the game can be, it is hardcore and its raid focused. All of the best rewards, yet again fall to the raiders and no-lifers. He tried to explain his reward system and couldn't even do that without stumbling on his own words utnil he had to finally admit that raiders and no-lifers would always get the best of everything. For him or his company to say there is something in this game for every play style is an insult. If they say this game would appeal to original EQ players, then that's all I need to know on how they treat their non-raiding player base.
I wish I could say the best of luck to them, but its hard to do so when there is the possibility that if they have a huge success, the whole genre willl go back to the model that only supports raiders and no-lifers and screw any other play style. Even WoW is adopting this kind of philosophy at their end game where its raid or die. I'm sick to death of this paradigm and I'm sick to death of developers that not only support it, but revel in its eliticism.
I will not be a happy gamer till the day they truly come out with a casual friendly game that actually rewards casual game play with the best rewards the game has to offer. A game that caters to the time limited over that of the no-lifers. These are games, where everyone has to pay the same subscription price and yet are not given equal representation in these games, its time for this unfair business model to change.
I can certainly understand the SWG/SOE connection is a deal breaker to many folks. I myself only played SWG for a short while, so I don't have the same problem. But I was a bit bitter at SOE about what they did to EQ2, in which I invested a year and a half of my time.
However, the lure of Vanguard made me think long and hard about just how "ticked off" at SOE I really was. What I realized was is this: Life is too short to hold a grudge. What I want is to be able to play the most promising MMORPG on the horizon, and that game is Vanguard! By not "paying SOE some of my subscription dollars" I am only hurting myself, certainly not SOE. Not only that, the first time SOE messes with the design of Vanguard, then I will withdraw my $ and go elsewhere. But until that happens, I am going to be having a BLAST playing a great game.
So again, yes, I understand your anger at SOE. But I also feel bad for you, because you won't get to experience Vanguard:Saga of Heros!
It's his business, he probably has multiple accounts of many games. That spells SMART...not loser.
Go look at Guildwars. It does not have deepness of EQ or Wow Or whichever game you see on market, but its advantage is that you can reach almost everything in with few friends. There are no raids, there are no time sink quests, there are no spawn campings... :)
This game is nice one, you do have your fun, advance pretty fast, and most of the missions and quests are done with cutscenes and nice story behind it.
I really have fun with it :)
G.
I feel bad for me too. lol. I really would like to play. Even more so because its a hardcore game. The MMO market, including SWG, has gone way too casual.
But there isn't much point in having principles if you disregard them when they are inconvenient. I made the decision that I wouldn't do business with SOE or its parent company Sony for that matter following what NGE, until they admit what they did wrong and righted their wrong. They obviously haven't done that.
MMOs are about effort = reward mechanisms. If you don't trust the developer honor that investment, why invest the amount of time necessary to get the reward. And if you don't try to acheive things in a MMO like Vanguard, why play? With SOE involved, I don't trust Vanguard to honor my investmet of time in the long run.
I don't want an MMO to play MMOs for 4 months or 6 months even a year. I want a MMO to play indefinitely. Prior to the NGE, i fully expected to be playing it until they turned off the servers. Personally, I don't trust any game that SOE is involved with the honor in game acheivement for that long of a period of time. Heck, even post NGE, they have invalidated players that obtaining faction rank. They are starting all over with a new system. Say goodbye to that Colonel faction rank you earned. So you can't even make the argument that SOE has changed their ways following the NGE, they are still doing it. Why in the world should I think they won't do it in Vanguard?
So even, if I were will to set aside my comittment to not buy Sony products or services, I am not going to take the risk that a year or two years into Vanguard that SOE will push Sigil to change the game to make it more casual (or whatever segment of the market SOE covets at the time) friendly, at the expense of things I have acheived in game.
Remember the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules. I think it is extremely naive to believe that SOE will have no influence on Vanguard's ongoing design.
Every MMO has risk. All of them.
For a variety of possible reasons, every MMO you sign up to and invest your hard work into is a risk. It may change tomorrow. It may be ruined by players, the publisher, or infrastructure vendors. It may be sold or closed or ruined by legislation. There is a lot of risk in life. The involvement by SOE is a small part of the risks involved, IMHO.
You decide not to invest any more in MMOG. That's a valid possible choice in life. That's not my choice though.
You can choose to be bitter about being burned by SOE in the past. You can call it a statement of principal and it might well be. You can only choose to try a new guy with a pristine record (although that has even more risk, IMHO.)
Those of you who have never worked to build a game like this do know all the incredible details and tradeoffs necessary. They are extremely complex to design, build, operate, and collect revenue from. And the customer gets fussier and more discriminating and more heterogenous every year. Sometimes there are no perfect options and you have to take the best you can find. I'm not going to let that stop me from playing a great game.
It's like love. Somes you love and get burned but it was usually better than never having loved.
Yes thats true. But i prefer to play "too casual" MMOG than too "time sink tedious" MMOG. I do have RL life, and because of it i stopped playing EQ. Well i have 2 years of SWG behind me and i loved it... but since this "i play shooter" nge upgrade, i got urge to leave.
Anyway, back to Vanguard. There is valid point saying that SOE may not change. And yes, SOE is just Co-Publisher, but what if SOE is not happy with player numbers, what if Vanguard goes the way of other "time sink" and/or "not so good quality" MMOGs (anyone remember Dark & Light, Horizons, Asherons Call, etc. and ultimatelly SWG), and they push sigil to make (put here your favorite "not so broken" part of the game) upgrade of Vanguard.
I will look into it, but i know already i won't have that time to keep up with friends. I wish Vanguard everything best, and i wish them more than million subscriptions, but i think we will see history repeating. Why? All companies have just one thing they love. Customer? No, money. Let me list some of them: EA... Blizzard... Sigil... and (pick your favorite company), also SOE which is extreme example.
Ah, sorry about rant...
G.
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong about all this, and maybe i'm wrong about "time sink" situation. But i think i'll have to wait till i get my hands on it, be it in beta or waitiing till it shows up next year.
That's the problem. They want to sell us a gamble, not a game.
...And the only thing that will make them sell us games again is to not buy their gambles.
Good post. I guess I should clarify. I certainly understand there is risk in any MMO, if for no other reason than eventually, all MMOs will shut down the servers. That might happen sooner that I am ready for. That's inherent in the business. I can live with that. I can also live with the risks that minor changes might make one aspect of the game slightly more desireable than it was previously. What I am not willing to live with is the risk that the Developer will act abritary and capricously with regard to the fundametal effort=reward mecahnisms of the game, as SOE did with the NGE.
So if there is anything that suggests they might do that, either in past corporate behavior or statements they have made, its not worth the risk.
1. It's not my account, it's my little brother Rufio's
2. soe isn't sony it's "son of everquest"
3. I said i'd never buy it, my girlfriend got if for me!
4. Add your own here
As I said before, if it's good lots gamers will play it, if it's very good most all gamers will play it. I swore off women when my girlfriend in high school dumped me, it lasted till the next really good one came along:). No need to tell me again you just won't play no matter what, but don't dig a hole too deep bro, I might enjoy pking you:)
My question to you is: Ever since WoW, why does every MMO that comes out have to cater to the casual gamer?
yes yes, we all know SoE sucks because they trashed SWG. Remember this, tho...SoE was/is very very good at one thing...delivery. Very little to no downtime is a major feat.
It kills me that the same people who complain about SWG getting dumbed down are ALREADY complaining that Vanguard MIGHT be "too much like work". Excuse me, but we're all sposed to be hating SoE for taking a deep, rich game and ripping out the complexity....you can't have it both ways.
Go to vanguardsoh.com and read the bios of those involved, you'll find to your amazement that Sigil has a few artists/devs who are former SoE people, who in fact worked on the SWG project. Why did they leave SoE? Because they HATE SoE for screwing over SWG!
Bottom line, SoE will only deliver, Sigil has a deathgrip on content, and they're VERY aware of how SoE can screw up content. They say if you lie down with dogs you get fleas, but in this case I'm confident Sigil has lots of flea spray...and a short leash for SoE.
Nuff said, I'm buying it.
SOE cheesed off the wrong market segment. The game they originally designed wasn't for the ADHD crowd. Most of us who loved pre-CU are mature adults with at least somewhat limited entertainment budgets, and we do not forget so easily when a company wrongs us. If the change had been the other way, from a "game for dummies" to something challenging and intelligent, their old customers would have probably forgotten all about it in six months. That's not what happened, and SOE will be paying for their decisions for a long time to come.
To be very very very honest here. your comments, all of you, are sooo long!
i get what you're trying to say, with SOE wronging you and all, but i haven't played swg or what it was :D.
though, i have more than enough braincontent to know what you're saying, this game looks very promising and i don't think all people at SOE are bad. Just think about the people who make coffee , or organize the paperwork
I think i will love this game!
Although as an ex-SWG player I do understand some of the views here, I am sorry to see this topic degenerate into yet another SOE hate thread. Despite my anger regarding the NGE and other SOE actions, I believe Sigil's reasoning in making the move they made. Staying with Microsoft would have been a horrible choice and would have damaged the game far more than any SOE hatred will.
Anyway! I for one will be buying this game and judging it on its own merits. If somewhere down the line I don't like how things are going, I will move on. Like I did with SWG, and a few others. Thanks for the great article and I look forward to future commentaries regarding the staff's beta experience
As for the casual gamer whinners, screw you! there is enough casual gamer crap out there for you to play for ever. I want a HARD hard-core game to play for once and I hope this is it.
The former SWG players have proven that when gamers collectively refuse to patronize a game, it does make a difference and SOE is paying for it across the board, not just with SWG. Most of the former SWG players are refusing to buy other SOE games and Sony products in general. Many gamers who never played a SOE game are avoiding them after reading about how shabbily the SWG players were treated. Anyone with common sense would not put themselves in a position to be screwed over like that.
I also want a HARD hard-core game to play, and I know Vanguard won't be it because it's a raiding centric game. It's a misconception to think raiding is hardcore when soloing can be much more challenging, relying on one's own skills and abilities rather than riding the tailcoats of others.
Damn straight, the devs make a concious decision to make raiding the most challenging content in the game. They do this because its the best method for slowing progession down for the least amount of effort. They could very well do the same thing for solo / small group content, but it would require so much more effort and it would reduce if not eliminate the epeen factor that so many raiders enjoy. I don't know if its just ego or a combination of ego and laziness that makes developers stick with this paradigm / game model, but its certainly getting old.
Could you please point out to me a MMO that is truly casual, where time spent in the game isn't rewarded over that of skill? Could you point out a single MMO and I stress MMO, not hybrid non-static world games like Guild Wars and Dungeons and Dragons Online that actually rewards every play style equally? Even WoW with all of its casual gameplay, fast leveling....etc, still uses the outdated reward system that gives all of the best gear to raiders and no-lifers. Casuals are stuck with ridiiculously underpowered weapons and armor. Not only is it unfair, but it makes PvP very unfun for non-raiders. The only one that comes close is City of Heroes, but its hard to even call it an MMO when everything is squashed into a single city and everything is instanced with little to no exploration, but even they reward the no-lifers with the best content in the form of Task Forces that take anywhere from 2 hours all the way to 10 hour sessions. Sure you can break those down by everyone logging off at some point then coming back to finish, but what if you want to do other things in the meantime? You can't, you have to quit the task force before you can continue with any of your other adventuring, making it very inconvenient to the very people its suppose to help, the time constrained. So yeah, we're pissed that there is yet another hardcore game coming onto an already saturated market. When the hell are we casuals actually going to get a game that rewards us with the best the game has to offer without having to spend 4 hour chunks of our precious lives and still not feel like second class citizens to raiders and hardcores.
From what I've heard, Vanguard is aimed at hardcore gamers who don't mind time sinks and are excited at the prospect of playing a game that will scare off twelve year olds within the first five minutes of game play. If that is in fact the aim of the game, then complaining about it being aimed at hardcore players is like complaining about a new action movie that's aimed at people who like action movies. If this isn't what you want from a MMO then go play something that's not made for hardcore gamers. Don't sit here and flame this one for being what it is. What kind of casual MMO exists? I don't know. Mario? Just roleplay that all of the NPC's and mobs are players.
A good read (the article).
I'm probably going to pick this game up, as I already have an SOE all access pass (for Planetside and Everquest II).
And yet there is an article about risk vs reward that outright states that while grouping can get some nice rewards, they will never compare to raiding because raiding is so much more difficult and therefore should have the best rewards the game has to offer. Which one is true, they're both out of the mouths of developers and it was Brad that made the statements about rewards. Brad is old school, always has been and probably will always be. He likes raiding, he likes hardcore and he thinks they deserve the best of the best. He has a history that proves this and I have not seen a single article to show he has changed. I'm sure there will be a lot of group and maybe some small amount of solo content, but they will never be catered to the way hardcores will be.
To the previous poster that says to shut up and go away. The last I heard, Sigil is suppose to be all about player feedback and suggestions. Do you speak for Sigil? Do you not think that criticism can make for a better game experience? I know it has helped games in the past, such as EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online. I'm sure there are many more, but I know those the best. Player feedback changed those games in many ways, sometimes radically and they were better for it. Why limit your game to one specific target audience when you don't have to, especially when its still in the building stage. They can't possibly think they can make enough revenues to justify the costs if they stick with hardcores only. As far as I'm concerned, the market isn't capable yet to support niche games, there just aren't enough players to do that, they cannibalize each other to a large extent at this time. Once they tap into mainstream and gain players that don't normally play online, then they might be able to get away with it. Sadly, the design paradigms of current and near future MMO's will never attract mainstream, they are far to hardcore for non-geeks.
Well Brad was part of EQ before they sold out to SOE and in my mind I can see him doing it again. But that aside I wouldn't pruchase a game again from SOE or any company partnering with them. I drew the line in the sand and said no more. Electronics, music, games if it is made or influanced by SONY at all I am not going to buy it. That said it was a sad day for me when I found out that Vanguard was going to be distributed by SOE, I was really looking forward to playing this one. I am now looking at playing Age of Connan or Warhammer online which both will be great I amagine.
I can say one thing however and that is whoever posted that people reading about SOE screwing with games and completely erasing months or years of accomplishments, is spot on in saying that people will think twice about playing a game with SOE involved in any way whatsoever, because that is exactly what I'm thinking right now. Making changes to a game where you cancel out rewards and accomplishments is not a good way to retain customer relations. Having read both sides of the equation ie I will never buy sony again, as opposed to SOE burned me and now I'm over it, I can certainly understand both sides of the equation with both sides making some very valid points.
It all comes down to a few facts in my opinion* will soe assume creative control of the games at some point? who know's, I'm sure Brad couldn't even answer that one, whatever his intentions are at this point will they remain the same in a year? or two years?
*Can you trust Sigil? Is it even about trust? Some say it's about principle which I can totally understand.
*Will the game even be any good? Only time will tell.
*Do you want a hardcore or casual experience? From what I've read this is certainly more of a hardcore gamers game.
Ultimately it comes down to the factors of the SOE involvement versus how good the game will be.
Everyone will have a different point of view.
Me, well I may just wait till a few months after launch and see how things are travelling.
There are also some other very promising MMORPG's on the horizon, age of conan anyone, how bout gods and heroes, perhaps warhammer or startrek online.
The fact is that people who will not play this game because of SOE's involvement have other choices and that is what life is all about, I am glad that they have the choice to play or not play Vanguard, that is what makes the world an interesting place in my view.
While Vanguard looks more and more to not be the game for me, as I can't play hardcore and fit in having a real life outside the game, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for that kind of game. Competition and variety are healthy in any business, including gaming as there is a wide variety of consumers. If Vanguard wants to cater to hardcore gamers, good for them! That's their niche. If other companies want to produce games for the more casual player, good for them! That's their niche.
Instead of casual gamers bashing hardcore games, and hardcore gamers bashing games that people like me gravitate to, I'd like to be happy for the hardcore gamer that this game may turn out to be an mmorpg nirvana for them the way WoW currently is for me. Some people want more of a challenge. Other's just want to jump straight into fun for a few hours between putting the kids to bed and getting oneself to bed. There is a place for both games. Game developers will have to decide if they want to produce more to fulfill a niche, or whether their priority is to produce mainstream and gain the main flow of subscription return and figure out what exactly IS mainstream, whether it be the hardcore gamer or the casual gamer. In the meantime while they're trying to figure that out, we, the consumers, are seeing an influx of a lot of games that are trying to cater to either side.
I expect with Vanguard that grinding for diplomacy and the right to talk to the king, etc, is going to be much the same as faction grinding but with another name. I really don't know, but I do know that I am not a fan of the corpse-run when everyone has to wait around for someone to get their corpse before we can move on in a raid, especially when I have an 8am surgery to attend to the next morning, but if hardcore people like that then I hope it's done well and lag/bug free. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad game, just a bad game for gamers like me. I don't enjoy games that cater to Brad's philosophy, but it works for a lot of other people, and one thing that Brad CAN bring to the table is quality. Hopefully he won't sell out in the end the way his EQ went to Verant and then to Sony, but in the meantime...hardcore gamers will likely enjoy Vanguard and more power to them and the consumer.
This is for those of you who keep complaining about how Brad "sold out" Everquest.
And a more detailed version of that from Wikipeida:
Development of EverQuest began in 1996 when Sony Interactive Studios America (SISA) executive John Smedley secured funding for a 3D version of textbased MUDs following the success of the first massively multiplayer game, Meridian 59. To implement the design Smedley hired programmers Brad McQuaid and Steve Clover who had come to Smedley's attention through their work on the singleplayer RPG Warwizard. McQuaid soon rose through the ranks to become Executive Producer for the EverQuest franchise and emerged during development of EverQuest as a popular figure among the fan community through his in-game avatar, Aradune. Other key members of the development team included Bill Trost, who created the history, lore and major characters of Norrath (including Everquest protagonist Firiona Vie), Geoffrey "GZ" Zatkin who implemented the spell system, and artist Kevin Burns, who did the original character modelling in the game.
EverQuest launched with modest expectations from Sony on March 16, 1999 under its Verant Interactive brand and quickly became successful. By the end of the year, it had surpassed the leading competitor, Ultima Online in number of subscriptions. Numbers continued rising at a steady rate until mid-2001 when growth slowed. As of 2004, Sony reports subscription numbers close to 450,000.
The success of EverQuest has triggered several corporate iterations of its publishing entity which has engendered a popular misconception among newer fans of the series that ownership and creative leadership of franchise passed somehow in 2000 from an independent entity known as Verant into Sony's hands. In reality, EverQuest from its inception has continually been owned by one or other subsidiary of Sony America, with John Smedley retaining ultimate control of the product, from his creation of the concept in 1996, to this day. This confusion can be attributed to a shift in Sony's publishing priorities in the US prior to the launch of its Playstation 2 product in 1999. In anticipation of PlayStation's launch Sony Interactive Studios America had made the decision to focus primarily on console titles under the banner 989 Studios while spinning off its sole computer title, EverQuest which was ready to launch, to a new computer game division named Redeye (renamed Verant Interactive). Executives initially had very low expectations for EverQuest but in 2000, following the surprising continued success and unparallelled profits of EverQuest, Sony reorganized Verant Interactive into Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) with Smedley retaining control of the company. By 2002 however, a majority of the original EverQuest team, including Brad McQuaid, Steve Clover and Geoffrey Zatkin had left SOE and day-to-day development of new titles in the franchise continues largely in the hands of a new generation of Sony designers.
Good information. So basically when Quaid left with all the whining and accusations of the lost "Vision"tm when the name changed on the splash screen at boot-up was really Sony's property all along and Quaid was just an employee?
Anyway, that part doesn't matter to me, it's past history and I'm only concerned with the games they are creating now and if they are something that fits my playstyle. I don't think Vanguard is going to be a bad game, just a bad game for me. It's going to be great for others with a different play style. Less Bitching, more choices.
Ok and your point is that he wont sell out again? Really the only difference is more paperwork. He left EQ in the full hands of SONY before, he will probably do it again. I can see a huge Vanguard playerbase waking up one day and finding SONY at the top instead of Sigil. And really does it matter "no" because even the remote possibility that years of intense character development is not worth it. You can raise the details and say but look SOE already owned EQ and I say it's all the same people to much of a chance for history to repeat it-self. I realy don't care at this point I am sure Vanguard will have it's following but they can't expect gamers that have been screwed over by SOE to subscribe, allot have made the hard choice as I did to not get stabbed in the back by SOE over and over again.
That doesn't make any sense. Developers work for companies, not the other way around. EQ started "in the full hands of SONY." It was Sony's property while he was working on it and it was Sony's property after he left it. The difference is much more than paperwork. It doesn't matter how much of the game was masterminded by Brad. If Sony says that they want "x" aspect of "Sony product y" changed, it's going to happen. It has nothing to do with people who are farther down the chain of command. Brad left EQ for a reason. He stated that SOE has nothing to do with actual game itself, just the marketing, distribution, and hardware. Do keep in mind that Brad wants Vanguard to succeed and last for a long time. Also keep in mind that he knows that SOE destroyed SWG. I'm not a Vanguard fanboi and I'm not a Bradboi either. I'm a logical thinker and I just really can't see what logic you're using that's telling you that he'd want to destroy his own game.
I think the point he is making is that the game is no longer Brad's baby. SOE has its hands on it financially, which will if not already translate into developing politics, which will eventually lead into game direction being dictated by those who foot the bill. EQ wasn't the only game out there to have this happen to them by their supposed distributers and marketers. These companies invest in the game, if they feel like their investment is being misused or abused, they will step in and take action.
Personally, I like the changes they made to SWG, so I don't have issue with SOE possibly taking the reigns, except for one thing and that is how that company treats its customers. Their service record leaves much to be desired, they seem to take this stance that the customer in general is a liying cheat and undeserving of any kind of recompense for accidental deletions of characters, items or money. They're too lazy in most cases to even check game records in this regard. But then again, I haven't had much luck with any MMO company's customer service. They are one of the few business that don't seem to really care, they are similar to phone, cable and utility companies in many ways. The complaining customer is replacable and insignificant.
I can't for the life of me figure out what is so difficult to grasp about this relationship. SOE does not have its hands on it financially. SOE was hired by Vanguard to handle distribution, marketing, sales, and servers. That means that SOE is being PAID for its services. SOE is not footing the bill for Vanguard. And SOE was never the "supposed distributer and marketer" of EQ. EQ was owned by Sony in full from the very beginning. That is an entirely different situation.
Not really, remember all that about the "vision" dying?
Well apperently the Vision didn't die, it shambles on like a brain eating zombie, unchanged and unchanging...
I was in Beta, and let me tell you that Vanguard, Saga of Suckass isn't EQ2, its EQ1.5. I told them to shove it after MONTHS of emails only ever got me form letters and bullsh*t, it definatly was NOT my PC or networks fault... what a joke.
And that retard McSquid keep talking smack about Age of Conan, about how much farther along Vanguard is and blah blah blah... well sorry charlie, you could take another year and unless you scrap your gfx and start from scratch its still going to suck compared to AoC...
So if you are looking for another EQ/WoW style raidgrind=endgame game, Vanguard is for you... as for me and mine, we are looking for innovation.
Don't want to remove anything from Vanguard...
But AoC will prolly break the million subscribtions mark. Vanguard? Eh, surprise me, but I doubt it.
There is nothing innovative about Vanguard. Tell us what you think is 3rd generation regarding Vanguard. It's just another forced grouping/dependency, raiding offers best rewards game. Been there done that, 1st generation MMOG.
The day went like this:
1. High level demo of the game by me and Jeff. That's where we showed off all of the high level stuff, the flying mounts, etc.
2. The rest of the afternoon, the 20+ journalists broke into groups of two and then had 20-30 miniute interviews with Jeff or me.
3. After the initial demo and when they were not interviewing either Jeff or me, they sat in a room with 20+ computers and started beta characters from level 1, connected to the live beta 3 servers, and experienced the game for hours just like any other tester.
So they saw it all and your assumption that they only saw level 40+ material is, with all due respect, the farthest from the truth -- totally false.
They saw and experienced it all. The high level game and high level overview from Jeff and me. Time to ask Jeff or me any questions they wanted to. Time to talk to various designers and other Sigil people who were down at the event, including designers who do popularion, class design, etc. And time to play the game from level 1 until, well, one guy hit 7 or 8.
Then they left with thier accounts. And they are still playing.
The only thing is is that they are limited to anything too in-depth in terms of coverage (the online sites) for about a month so that those articles appear with the magazines, given the lead times the magazines need to get stuff into print.
You will be proven wrong. The majority of content is for those in-between, the average or 'core' gamer.
It will be about 24 gigs installed. The game IS that big. Bigger than any game I know of. And not just big in terms of size, but big in terms of what you can do and how much content. And with HDs so cheap and so big now, 24 gigs is nothing.
1. Housing is outside in the real world and not instanced, like SW:G was. This was the original plan for EQ 2, but things changed after I left. Given that we already have houses in beta that are working as I described above, this is not going to change.
2. Travel = horses, unicorns, hellhounds, camels, ships of various sizes and abilities and holding area, flying mounts like griffons, pegagus, drake, etc. And none on rails -- all part of a seamless world where if you see a place, you can go there.
Oh, and yes, the world IS huge. Here's a rough picture of the size of the world just from the south of Thestra to the north of Qalia, showing just a bit of Kojan in-between, but with most of the archipelago and other isles not shown: Thestra-to-Qalia.
MUCH more than faction, although faction is part of it. Check out thisarticle that goes into Diplomacy more than probably any other article to date.
It's pretty pathetic that we still have to answer those kind of us ignorant comment after 10 years of mmo.
First of all: It is an EXELLENT reason to not be playing ANY MMO that has SOE in the portrait or back ground. I don't buy Nike stuff because they exploit poor children to make their shoes. It's not the shoes that i don't like, it's the companies method behind. So boycoiting $OE for that same reason, even if you like their product is completely justified.
Secondly: There are still idiots in this world to claim that your playtime should "automatically" rewards you more. Well, you're a moron. From the moment you pay your subscribtion fee, you shouldn't get "more" just because you spend more time in front of your screen like a looser. If you haven't understand by now that your off-line time should be used in a MMO to reduce the discrepancy between hardcore and casual gamers, you have missed the train that is leading to the third generation. So go play your dinosaurus MMO and spare us your ignorance.
1. Comparing exploiting children to what SOE did is ludicrous. I understand and respect why some people are upset with SOE, but this is way over the top. I have also made many, many posts as to why we made this switch, and why it was the best move for Sigil, for Vanguard, and for Vanguard players. To not to have made this decision would have been me not doing my job. Make your stand, draw your line in the sand but a. don't made crazy comparisons equating a company messing up a game to children being exploited and b. no matter your choice, just as I respect those who don't want to do business with SOE (even though I disagree), those of you should also respect my decision even if you don't understand or disagree.
2. There are games where just paying for them entitles you to rewards. I'm not sure if they are truly rewards, though, if you are entitled to them. Rewards are usually earned. Human nature dictates that if you work for something, you take pride in it and it means something to you. Our responsibility is to make that 'working for something' not just fun in terms of what you get at the end, but fun a long the way. That is our plan and what we are striving for. But this I know: a game based purely on entitlement, where you somehow have the right to have everything, every item, spell, skill, ability, and see every location, just because you pay the fee, is not going to be one where people get a real sense of accomplishment and will have issues with longevity and also have a hard time convincing people to pay a monthly fee for. You can't change human nature, not in RL, and not in a game.
Never said that, never meant that, and it doesn't describe Vanguard in the slightest. My suggestion to you would be instead of posting misinformation about a game, basically lies, that you go off and do something fun and rewarding. You'd be a happier person I bet.
At least till they sell the game to SOE after a year, so they can go on with making another game.....
No plans to sell. We have 7 years of gameplay, content, and features planned for Vanguard, have worked hard, poured our hearts and souls into this game, and letting it go at launch or soon after simply makes no sense.
1. They are not touching Vanguard
2. We are doing the CS.
I am still waiting for you or another staff member to answer my question regarding self sufficient soloing crafting.
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/95513/page/17
You might want to explain your philosophy on investment of time to SOE as they seem to disregard that concept.
PS. I like your quote, it's similar in meaning to mine. How do you feel about gold selling and websites that promote it?
1. You can solo doing crafting just fine. In fact, of all of the spheres, it is the one mostly meant for soloing. Much more information is out there and detail -- please take a look.
2. We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it.
In which case they would have had to charge a monthly fee for it. But it is an excellent game -- just not at all the same kind of game Vanguard (or WoW, or EQ 1 or 2, or DAoC, etc.) are.
No, it is primarily aimed at the average, 'core' gamer, not the hardcore gamer. Please read this.
Not really, remember all that about the "vision" dying?
Well apperently the Vision didn't die, it shambles on like a brain eating zombie, unchanged and unchanging...
I was in Beta, and let me tell you that Vanguard, Saga of Suckass isn't EQ2, its EQ1.5. I told them to shove it after MONTHS of emails only ever got me form letters and bullsh*t, it definatly was NOT my PC or networks fault... what a joke.
And that retard McSquid keep talking smack about Age of Conan, about how much farther along Vanguard is and blah blah blah... well sorry charlie, you could take another year and unless you scrap your gfx and start from scratch its still going to suck compared to AoC...
So if you are looking for another EQ/WoW style raidgrind=endgame game, Vanguard is for you... as for me and mine, we are looking for innovation.
If you were in beta, it was obviously very early on and you may not have understood that. The beta is now in phase 3 and has a lot of players playing all of the time, the majority of which are having a good time, and a better time hopefully each patch we make (and we patch often).
Why do you say that? Can you list a set of reasons why you think AoC is more mainstream and less niche than Vanguard?
thanks,
There is nothing innovative about Vanguard. Tell us what you think is 3rd generation regarding Vanguard. It's just another forced grouping/dependency, raiding offers best rewards game. Been there done that, 1st generation MMOG.
3 spheres of advancement, seamless world, ships, flying mounts not on rails, advanced combat system, etc. Please read http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/95513 for the details. Thanks.
I appreciate the responses but I am getting conflicting reports from you and your lead dev crafting designer, and it concerns me. Perhaps if I can beta Vanguard sufficiently before retail I will know the truth.
According to what he said previously on the Vanguard forums, some crafting materials will only drop from a mob if a "crafter", someone in crafting mode, is present in the group. This means that the "crafter" is dependent on another person who is in the standard "adventuring" mode to make the kill, while the "crafter" is basically just standing by idle. If this is the case, then crafting can not be a solo profession.
Also in order for crafting to be a solo profession, there can be no crafting materials limited to raid or group mobs or areas to be harvested within their domain which a soloer could not survive in. Think in terms of Planes of Power and you understand my meaning. Prior to PoP I was a self sufficent solo crafter in EQ1 and it was still difficult and challenging. Being dependent on others does not create challenge or dictate difficulty.
It would be false to suggest crafting to be soloable simply because you can max your skills via NPC work orders. The purpose of pursuing crafting is to be able to make all items that your chosen craft allows, especially the best ones, and if that can't be done solo, including harvesting those materials, then it is not soloable.
It's misleading to downplay raiding as only being 20% of the content, because raiding is the dominent content at the higher levels which leaves no alternatives to soloers and small group oriented players. At least that has been the case in most MMOGs that offered raiding.
The point is kinda mute though for me because:
A. I despise all pre order in-game advantage deals as they are unfair to retail customers who justifiably wait til NDAs are lifted and can possibly beta test and hear reviews about the game prior to spending money on it.
B. Your affiliation with SOE was not a good choice from a marketing perspective. SOE deserves all the criticism they get and it's sound judgement for gamers to avoid being burned again.
C. I am a gamer who commits to one MMOG at a time, and if I have to make a choice between Vanguard or Chronicles of Spellborn, depending on release dates, not having tested either game, I am choosing Chronicles of Spellborn.
Well, I am a grouper and I plan on corrupting as many soloers as possible to grouping. But once upon a time, I was mostly a soloer and I was looking forward to solo as much as possible, inside a MMO. So I will try to show you some valid reasons why a soloer would want a MMO that is focused about...soloing. (none of these points remove the possibility to have a nice grouping experience, althought it complexify it slightly)
1- Competition. Soloers can see what other soloers are doing, and thereby try to outdo them. It might mean nothing to you, but trust me, for peoples who are heavily focused on soloing, this matter a LOT. Having a soloing endgame would helps a LOT and make these soloers happy. Such endgame should have no impact on the grouping system and be unaffected by the grouping endgame...soloers would love it and work to be the best soloers, and that would be fine. If I want to be good at soloing, it is fine that the game request me to solo, if I don't do it, I don't deserve it...as long as it work the same way for grouping uberness.
1-A True soloing ethic. That is a point I am not sure I can convey or make you understand very well, but see, soloers have kinda an "honor system" on their own, even if you can't understand it. Yes, they would love a system that only by soloing you can progress furthermore. This might seem opposed to grouping, but it isn't...it just mean that you need more than only 1 overall system...see, asking someone information is not a true soloer...but giving this information is important...ah...this is sooo far. See, a soloing shaman that was walking with a griffon pet in EQ, it was something every soloer would respect...there is something, I am sorry if I can't convey the feeling that well, after all, I am a grouper myself, not really a soloer. See, for me there is no shame in talking and sharing a LOT of information, for a true soloer, asking for this information is kinda shameful...someone has to experience it, not ask for it...
2- Cooperation. Even if they solo in their little area, soloer can share information, directly, they may encounter other soloers in real time, doing the same stuff they do or a variation.
3- Sharing the same world, even if you solo, you ain't alone.
4- Soloers are available to grouping offers. They are not easy to convert, they may steer backward and move away, they may prefer soloing over some groups. But...they are available to be tamed into grouper. Maybe not by me, maybe not by you, but the right person at the right place can.
Soloing in a MMO can't be compared to soloing in a single player game. Maybe from YOUR point of view it is the same, but you are not a MMO-soloer, you just don't understand what these soloers understand. I am sure there are MANY other points, the fact I have issues to bring them just prove that I am more or less a soloer myself, not that they don't exist.
See, ideally, a MMO has 1 distinct endgame per gameplay, each endgame is unaffected by the others and doesn't affect them...so the best soloers are soloers...the best groupers are groupers...and so on with every major gameplay. Having 1 crushing system is exactly the opposing logic, but in the opposing logic you have to partake in every endgame or accept to be a weaker character...in a game nobody should have to willingly settle for a weakling status.
The Vision(tm) evolves from a raiding logic crushing all gameplays, to a generalist logic where someone have to do everything, which is slightly better, but not much. Especially that in vanguard, it isn't balanced, someone will spend a LOT more time raiding then doing anything else, this 20% items acquisition will take longer in time than all the 80% combined together...a complete lack of balance that will worsen with every new expansion...yet, the Vision(tm) evolves slightly...but it is at the opposing way now...it used to be a specialist minding (raiding) and it become a generalist thinking...but a generalist thinking doesn't work well in a game IMO, since players want to do what they like, not everything, thereby the generalist thinking is always doomed from the start, in a hobby.
Yikes man type much? The reason people want to solo in an MMO is because they want freedom. Do whatever you want in a game, that's what we want to do. Forcing people to do things they don't enjoy upsets people for obvious reasons. Plenty of MMO's allow soloing to a lage extent. I think that is why some people get so pissed at Vanguard: it's a great looking high production MMO that isn't being made for their play style.
It is however being made for mine. I'll be on the PVP server.
Ahhh EQ style PvP... tacked on the end...
ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Whack-a-mole FTL
First... Wow.. I've never seen any one community rep/liaison in the official forums for a MMO ever respond in as much detail as you have here.. So that's quite impressive :-).
If it's representative of a more hands-on approach you'd have to your own player community, then kudos. That right there would put Vanguard head and shoulders above so many of the games out there.
Also.. and I'm sure you know this - but I think you give too much credit to the posters of some of the comments you replied to - many times people will over-dramatize their point to get a reaction (I've even done it :-).. but be that as it may...
Here are some comments/concerns I have...
I've played a bit in Beta 3 and... well, I've been underwhelmed; specifically by the "quest" content. The first 7 or 8 levels, I did nothing but quests and all but like 1 or 2 were "kill # of x" or "gather # of y" quests. To me, those are "tasks", not "quests". Quests have a larget objective, some kind of story or lore.. or.. well.. point to them beyond "Jacobi Murherren doesn't like the rats he's seen all around the village lately and would like you to help thin the population a bit. Kill 15 rats and then return to him with their tails to prove you did so." I mean.. really, I could sit down and come up with those all day. They're not creative, they're not original, they're not challenging. They certainly don't provoke any kind of thought process beyond "find rats and kill them".
There was one in there that I thought was at least entertaining.. without going into detail since I don't want to break any NDAs or whatever.. it involved angry tiny scorpions. That at least had a point to it - something with some kind of back-story - and got a good chuckle out of me.
The very next quests I got, though.. right back to the "go kill # of x". I basically lost interest and will probably not even consider looking at it again, if at all, 'til around launch - maybe during open beta if there is one. If the quests at the earlier levels haven't been amped up with some more interesting and meaningful content, I probably won't bother playing it. Not like that's going to put Vanguard under - and it's not a threat. I'm not delusional or ego-centric enough to believe I'm anything more than another schmuck spending probably way-too-many-hours at my computer, achieving imaginary goals for imaginary rewards... However, I do enjoy that time to be spent on things that keep me engaged, immersed and challenged. Kill and Collect quests do none of that, for me anyway.
Soo... for what it's worth... I'm hoping those "tasks" are place-holders or that they'll at least, be optional with other more interesting and challenging quests available to do instead. And I mean.. from level 1 - not from level 30 or 50 or whatever. That's another thing that drives me nuts. In WoW and in other MMOs I've played.. the early levels are always boring and repetitive. The mentality is almost always "well, when you get to level 30, that's when the good stuff starts". Why make players wait 30 levels for the "good stuff"? I just don't get that at all but it seems to plague every MMORPG I've ever played. Maybe there's a good reason for it - but I can't fathom one.
-shrug-
I love the look of Vanguard, from what I've seen personally and from movies/screenshots. It sounds like you've got quite an epic world awaiting us... but if that world is going to experienced 20 rats at a time... I think I'll have to pass.
only in an eq-esque setting
but im so afraid soe will say "hey brad we got a few suggestions..."
and then the game goes to hell in a month time
-darkbladed
Content is content. If you don't have time to experience a challenge then go play a game that presents no challenge. If you are so buisy with other things in your life be thankful you have other meaningful things that fill the hours of your day.