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Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Editorial: Can We Save Vanguard?
Justin Vincent examines the likelihood of saving Vanguard from inevitable demise in this latest article.
By Guest Writer on June 14, 2010
If you need a refresher on the disastrous launch and history of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, you need only look as far as your favorite forum. However, among the anguish and bitterness of Vanguard’s befouled history are the small (but growing, perhaps?) glimmers of hope for the game that many gamers "wish would have succeeded."
In my last article I discussed briefly how the technical state of Vanguard today is nowhere near the instability of launch. While it is sounder today from a coding and content standpoint, it is in a potentially perilous position when it comes to the future of the game. 2010 may very well be the make-or-break year for Vanguard, as we have seen the adoptive parent company, SOE, seem to have virtually abandoned the game as far as marketing, development, and support are concerned. Some have said that Vanguard is “circling the drain”, and though the sentiment doesn’t do justice to the positive aspects of the game, they aren’t completely wrong to think so.
Vanguard suffers from two major problems, which unfortunately feed into each other: Low player population, and low developer support. The game has been mismanaged and it lacks a solid playerbase, which leads to restricted resources for support and development, resulting in even fewer people playing it, and so on. Vanguard seems doomed to an undetermined lifespan of cyclical decay. This cycle could go on for a few months or even a few years, but we can imagine that unless something changes, Vanguard will eventually just die.
While many of us resent SOE for sacrificing Vanguard to nourish its parasitic EQ-spawn, we can’t really blame them for dropping a game that was showing dwindling subscriptions. (We CAN, however, blame them for destroying a successful-at-the-time title like SWG, but that’s another article altogether). SOE is a business and must operate within the constraints of such. It is, therefore, unlikely that SOE will spontaneously push Vanguard up and out of its downward spiral. Likewise, it is unrealistic of us, the players, to expect them to do so.
So what about the other half of the equation?
Is there something(s) that we, the “fans” (including current and former players) of Vanguard, could do to alter the course of the game’s fate? In this age of social networking and grass-roots movements, I am curious to see if players can take charge of a game, rather than the company who controls it.
In this article I’ll describe a few ideas in brief, but if the 150+ forum responses to my last article (and the several discussions in the forums since then) are any indication, you all have ideas which will dwarf my own.
Let’s start with player-exclusive options—courses of action that the players can take, completely independent of SOE involvement, sanction, or capital.
Viral Video (marketing) contest: A player or player-run organization (guild) holds an independent viral marketing campaign to show off the game and attract new players. Submissions could be compiled on a forum thread (maybe even on MMORPG.com’s forums), and a certain time period in to be voted on by viewers. The video with the most votes wins, and the creator of that video gets a prize or something. (Hell, I’m no money-bags myself, but I’m willing to throw in 2 months of Vanguard subscription/game card or something to the winner). All submissions can be featured on various gaming-related forums and sites.
Social networking group: Create a group on your favorite social network site and get your friends interested in the game. Vanguard is a game that encourages grouping, so bring friends! Even something in the vein of “We can find X number of people who want Vanguard to succeed!” would be better than nothing (and hey, it’s free!).
Guild/Player-organized server social events: This may have happened in the past, but why wait for the devs to put out a fair or something when you’ve got all of Telon at your disposal? Organize a fair just for the hell of it that gets the population of Vanguard socializing and reinforces that community. Have a sailing race around Kojan, or a free-fall contest, or a costume contest, or see who can train the most mobs the furthest distance. You guys are creative, come on! Vanguard isn’t just a game, it’s a virtual world, and the citizens of that world should get together and have fun for fun’s sake.
Mass Petitions to SOE: Old-school and less-effective than Mass Subscriptions would be, but hey it can’t hurt to let SOE know that Vanguard has her supporters, even if there are few behind SOE’s doors.
Now, if we were to get a little cooperation from SOE, we could try some things like the following (just in case anyone from SOE is reading this):
Pricing model change: $14.99/month is the MMO standard for successful games…or is it? DDO switched to a variant of F2P recently and has been better off for it. LotRO regularly offers its subscribers a chance to buy 3 months at a time for $9.99/month. EVE has a system where players can buy game time off of other players in exchange for in-game currency. People may want to play Vanguard, but might not want to pay $14.99/month. Come on SOE, take some risks on this game, it’s not like you have a lot to lose on it anyway.
Enhanced social mechanisms: Some MMOs really nail the social aspect of online gaming. On the simple end of the spectrum, there’s WoW’s dancing (and the thousands of related viral videos). A bit more involved is LotRO’s player-music system which ranges from small-group entertainment to community-wide concerts. Could other social “fluff” elements (in the vein of Slappy, perhaps) be introduced by SOE, and would they improve the Vanguard experience—and more importantly, increase membership?
Player-Generated Content: SOE can’t seem to dedicate creative staff to this game. So why not pull a lesson from the Wil Wright school of thought: rather than having the developers generate content, why not "outsource" it to the players? Granted there’s the initial cost of developing and releasing a user-friendly dev-kit of sorts, but after that it would simply be a matter of Vanguard players putting together some dungeons or raids and submitting for player review. Players test the content on an isolated test server and then rate different aspects of the experience. The submission with the highest rating is incorporated into the world of Telon on some new island, cave, mountain peak, or underwater spot somewhere. Of course I'm talking something like 2 to 4 additions a year here, certainly not monthly. Some MMOs have tried this with varying degrees of success, like City of Heroes/Villains. Other games thrive on these types of user-generated content systems, like Sony's Little Big Planet (PS3). Could such a system work in Vanguard?
Those are just a few rough ideas. I hope the forum discussion will bring out more great ideas, and be a vehicle for organization and execution. (By the way, total props to the folks who organized the MMORPG.com guild on Seradon!).
I should note that I operate independently of MMORPG.com as a guest contributor, so please understand that I’m not offering their resources in any of this. I am, however, willing to help organize anything that the Vanguard/MMORPG.com community wants to move forward in these regards.
We as gamers could save Vanguard its as easy as everyone resubbing back to the 200k status it had at launch. Thing is Vanguard isn't worth saving anymore. It has to many negative things about it and it still isn't fixed in the bug department. And unless its been fixed as of recently I remember some of the abilities not working correctly too. Keep dreaming Vanbois/gurls but Let this game go away please. For the love of everything that is MMO, Sigil burned us by not commiting to the game, SoE burned us because they wanted to make money on it to early instead of waiting, and if we keep allowing these companies to burn us each time its our fault not theres. Let them pay, Kill the good game that is Vanguard, And stop letting Publishers and Developers get away with Robbery as they did on this game. Everyone deserved a refund on launch day, Everyone.
Just let it die already...Sony doesn't care about it, have they ever!? More than likely they're developing Everquest III currently and the only reason they bought Vanguard was so that nobody else could have it and be a serious contender with their Everquest franchise.
Had someone else with the resources and care gotten their hands on Vanguard and given it the much needed attention it deserved it would have rivaled EQ & EQ II. In someways it already does and that scares Sony, why ya think it been put in whatever is worse than maintenance mode....heh
My answer to your question has to be no. Your article hits several points that have been repeated for several games in the soe station pass and changed nothing with them. Considering those were games that soe seemed to at least care about I don't see the same efforts here somehow finding success where they did not previously.
Vanguard is what it is and nothing is going to change that. Soe has their sights set on several upcoming games and just doesn't have the manpower or talent to spare to a game with no viable future. Even if they did care enough to take interest in the games long term future, which they do not.
The lead developer/lead producer is coming close to a year where he has been assigned to work on other mmos at the company if that tells you anything about how soe views this game. He is all but a developer for EQ2 now, but hasn't officially left the Vg team. The last producer before him did not even say goodbye to the players when he left for another project.
In all honesty Vanguard should have died and never been released. The morbid life it has suffered through only serves to scare developers away from making games of this depth, size or style of play.
I wouldn't walk across the street to piss on an SOE game if it was on fire in order to save it. If I pissed gas and 'accidently' forgot that I did so, I might try.
But in this day and age with an MMO coming out every month, we as consumers have an easier choice about who we support. Vanguard may be the most amazing game ever, but without a huge upturn in numbers, SOE isn't going to bother so why should I?
And even if the game did recover, who's to say it would get SOE's attention again? The natural response by a company that does nothing but gets a huge revenue boost is to continue doing nothing. Take that money and laugh at the users. Or possibly reinvest it into a game they think will have a LOT more subscribers, like their new clone wars mmo.
I honestly think switching to F2P would be best for Vanguard at this point. Like with DDO, once people are playing, they'll see the best qualities of the game and that will translate into money if done correctly.
Gee so much positive responses to the post and Vanguard Im overwhelmed with emotion......not !!!
I love Vanguard and will continue to pay my subscription until the game go's under
Good idea's Justin ...I'll support any initiative to increase support for the game ,lets see what people suggest :)
I agree with dreamscaper, if any MMO is ripe for the F2P model, its Vanguard.
Strip away the restriction on potential population sizes imposed by the P2P model and let the game speak for itself in terms of what it can give to the player. Without having to pay per month, the game might actually generate more interest than it does now.
SOE has nothing to lose by switching VG to F2P. Although the switch would benefit from a little marketing by SOE on various sites, such as this.
It can be saved,its just that SOE isnt even trying to. If SOE can sell it to someone that want to make Vanguard the best mmorpg ever it can be saved,but i really dotn think so.
I am sorry but Vanguard's website is not doing the game any favors. I was thinking of doing the free trial last week, went onto the website to get information on the game, and found nothing useful. And when I say 'useful' what I mean is the following:
Under "Characters" it shows me a character of the day. Nothing on the potential how to make my own character. The guilds section gives me a list of guilds. Really, the website is nothing more than a community center, which is fine for the established players, but does nothing to entice me. It gives me no idea of what the game is, what I can do, and what I should look forward to.
Needless to say, I am not going to waste time jumping into a game if it cant give me some basic idea of what I could potentially do there.
I really liked the crafting in Vanguard, just did like the lagg i allways seemed to get from the game :(
For me , if there was much less lagg and more players then i would be happy to sub again.
But as SOE seem to have washed there hands with it, whats the point :(
It's still broke...for me at least.
Lets be realistic here,VG was a great game, it still is But evem with a top of the line computer the game still has alot of room for improvements.
We cant even really blame investors forcing an early release, after all 4 years in development when it was still property of Microsoft.. who 1) didnt bother to put time, money ,tallent nor crew into it, infact, good ol brad the vision managed to show the same results for FOUR YEARS under while under Microsoft ownership.
Save to say SOE did save the game, at release they did put in more.. capeble dev's on the job to try to save the game. But unfortunately the damage was already done, players where already leaving. They did try.
But now we are getting to the point where it IS debateble to keep trying, people arent looking to try an old game, people are more intersted in something new. So yes people are right, SOE could try to put more work in it to TRY to get more life into the game, but the chance on success on that is slim. Its probebly better ,easier and cheaper to move on to who knows.. eq3 or vg2.
I never saw the big appeal to crafting in VG. the system itself was fine, the leveling process was absolutely horrid though. And not being able to get exp from making items just seemed a bit odd.All they have to do is make it some kind of flavour of F2P. I strongly suspect that the internal politics is the only thing keeping that from happening. There are people who don't want that kind of game in the future of MMO's. They want simpler dumbed-down WoW style directed play, they don't want open big sand-boxy worlds. And they don't want anything threatening EQ2 for instance. A F2P Vanguard could potentially take away subscriptions from EQ2 (even though the old-style box and subscription model is doomed anyway in the near future). WIsh it would happen, but don't see any hope that it will. They really want it to die, but will suck every drop of blood out till it does (It's $oE! Was there any doubt?!).
Next to that....
With some of the most fun classes to play, the clumsy character annimations kill it for me.
I'd add some good character annimations and try new fresh types of servers. for example: I'd love to see the things that make Eve rock added to this game. It would make for a whole different kind of game, the world is huge enough for it...
But then there is no class ballance.... if i remember correctly.
All it proves is that without a true active development team there is no future for any MMO. Just look at other disastrous releases like AoC and WAR, with a lot of effort those games keep improving.
i Seem to get on fine with the crafting, i really cant remember to what lvl i got to but i was able to build my first boat :)
i do agree the leveling process was horrid, i.e very slow and very long :( but if you had the time to give it you could slowly level up
These are just my thoughts :)
To save Vanguard Sony needs to invest in Vanguard. Unless people can see assurances that Vanguard will develop grow at a reasonable rate they won't return.
Of course unless Sony sees an increase in players it will not invest. So catch 22, but its in Sony's ballpark if they want players to return they need to give us a reason to. A reason which is a bit more substantial than empty promises and potential.
Just my 2 cents
Gadareth
No offense but its subscribers like you that keep telling publishers/developers that they can release anything and someone will pay for it. This game warranted a damn BOYCOTT of all SoE games, thats how horrid this game was at launch and yes you might be having fun and loving the game but sometimes you need to take a step back and let it go for the community.
Why anyone would even WANT to save a game that gets absolutely zero support from the company that gets your money is beyond me.
Vanguard was fun and appealed to me longer than any other game ou there....but I'm a man of principal.
SOE charging full price for a game that gets no support is unethical, and therefor, they will get nothing from me.
I've been in the same guild for over 10 years now, when Vanguard was released, a big population of my guild went and played since the MMO we were playing at the time was on it's last leg ( now shut down). I knew from following the development of Vanguard the developers were full of crap and the fanbots were on full alert. I went ahead and bought a copy of Vanguard at release to be with my guild only because I knew that I would get my cash back on my credit card if the game did not match what the developers said. I did get my cash back after a couple of weeks along with a good number of my guildmates who got their cash back. I really think all MMO gamers should purchase MMO's using a credit card as we live in a time of lying, BS artist, thief game developers.
Here are some things about Vanguard that I had the pleasure of being a part of.
1. Watching SONY take a back seat as the Vanguard developers lied, cheated and jacked MMO gamers to pawn off their VERY, VERY, VERY unfinished MMO, well the ones that did not use a credit card.
2. The Vanguard forums... lol, watching gamers being verbally attacked by the people running the game who had real issues and posted them in a very nice way.
3. I'm sure lots of you people had all the massive bugs and so on. Aside from all the massive unbearable bugs, I lost levels at seperate times, falling through the game world on sepertae times and having to downgrade my system at the time just to play. I got no help from the customer support, the game was nothing but a head stomp from in game to out of game.
I know some people will now step in and defend Vanguard but here is the deal, A couple of guildmates of mine of over 10 years still play Vanguard and tell me that the game is a mess. I will never EVER buy another MMO by the Vanguard developers OR SONY or any MMO with the SONY tag. I heard lots and lots of bad things over the years about SONY, It is a shame my first time dealing with them was pure hell.
As for saving Vanguard.... NO, flush the turd already.
You do realize that Vanguard was not a SoE game right? Microsoft dumped Sigil who developed it and SoE just published it. Does seem pointless that SoE saved VG, which probably would have never been released otherwise, only to neglect it afterward though.Vanguard is going to continue to "circle the drain". I doubt we'll see SOE invest much into the game, at least not any more than what they have.
A few things to note:
1. The old subscription based revenue model is on the decline. Turbine, SOE, and even Blizzard are seeing success from their virtual stores. I imagine we'll see more and more games go the hybrid route that Turbine has taken (pay a monthly fee for VIP status or play for free and pay for content ala carte).
2. I imagine any SOE game in development is being prepped for such models (new casual SW mmo, PlanetSide next, EQ Next).
3. Converting Vanguard to any sort of F2P model would require some development efforts and considering Vanguard would just be another competitor to EQ2 and EQNext - I doubt they see it as a viable route. That and even after such a conversion, Vanguard may still stagnate.
Why do people think SOE saved Vanguard?
SOE bought it so nobody else would.
SOE bought it and let it rot.
They bought it to insure that it would be right where it is now. Nowhere.
They made some changes (pretty much all bad) to the game but never EVER put any effort into actually adding to and developing the game.
Publishers have never been about retooling old properties. They are just like us, the consumers, in that all they care about is the next big thing. SOE should be commended for even going so far as to pick up Vangaurd which by all accounts was no more than a mangy dog limping down the side of a road when they found it. I don't think any other major publisher would have even considered pouring money into a broken failing title such as it was.
Best to let it die and refocus resources on something new and innovative.
While I personally agree that SOE has essentially abandoned Vanguard, I would expect a supposedly "neutral" gaming news site to write a far more reasoned story than this. This is the kind of thing you read in the Vanguard forums, and for which an "I hate SOE" thread was deliberately stickied so these types of rants can all go in there.
The truth of the matter is Vanguard only runs on higher-end gaming-specific machines. Even with every graphic setting as low as you can go, unless you've got a dedicated grapics card designed for computer gaming, Vanguard is a lag-fest. With that in mind, it's within the realm of possibility that SOE is shelving Vanguard until everyday computer technology catches up to the system requirements of the game for casual players. That theory is just as valid, and far more likely, than the author's ridiculous contention that SOE bought Vanguard to kill it to protect Everquest 2 (or whatever the current conspiracy theory du jour is).
And as someone who recently tried Vanguard, I totally understand that the game simply is not going to appeal to everybody. While Vanguard's world may be vast, nothing looks terribly innovative if you're just going into the game today. What's more, some of the game's more unique features require a bit of a learning curve, and others (like their death penalty) are just very unpopular and "un-fun". I know, it's great for hardcore gamers, but not everyone who likes and pays for MMOs is "hardcore".
Given all the challenges the very game itself poses for the random player who picks up the trial, I don't know how many people will end up sticking it out for the "vastness" of Vanguard.
But the big problem here was this entry wouldn't have even been tolerated in the Vanguard-specific forum here. Yet it makes the front page? That's just an embarrassment.
You do realize when I purchased my handy box that was vanguard it says SoE. Yeah i know who developed it and SoE should of did what Microsoft did and Dumped this pile because they knew CEO of Sigil was a complete dufus when he made this game. He wasnt making head way on the game so they dumbed his ass. SoE being that they might of owed Brad i think it is was the owner of Sigil a favor for the sucess EQ1 had so they took a gamble on him. But Sigil was still BSing and SoE being SoE released the pile that was VG at launch. And since SoE were the ones behind the LAUNCH LAUNCH LAUNCH agenda its SoE's Fault just as much as its Sigil. Hence me saying Developers(sigil)/Publishers(SoE) think they can just release any pile of crap and people will still pay. We should of Boycotted SoE so they know the next time they decided to publish a damn pile they will know better. But they wont because VANGUARD IS STILL ALIVE. and Developers like Sigil know they can just make a game thats 60% done and still make a profit when they release it. Yeah they wont make any future profits but they made a little profit after launch.
As to SoE neglecting VG they were just being Capitolistic n nature and Earned there little bit of profits at launch heard all the negative things about it once it did launch and made the decesion to just not waste any more money on the game that they helped get released. They moved it into the catagory of If VG makes money we will spend it if the numbers just keep dying we will MILK IT FOR ALL ITS WORTH and let it die. Guess which one they choose VGBoi/Gurls???!!!
Vanguard is worth saving. They should bring out an expansion pack like the Hall of shattered souls.
I see a lot of negative feedback probably from WOW players who love cartoon graphics and chi com gold selling.
I think your problem is not WoW players, but EQ2 players that would like to see Vanguard die and more focus on EQ2.
Easy, at release SOE putted time and efford into getting the game to a level of stability to become actual playeble, the game was very unstable.
They brought it to a playeble level. They did invest in adding content.
Despite their effords people kept on leaving, granted they could have spent more time and efford on promotion but at the time, fixing the game was more important.
Without SOE the game wouldnt come as far as it is now.
Since its basicly a money drain and still requires alot of.. fixing, with an ever decreasing playerbase, it makes perfect sense they well.. stopped trying.
So thank you microsoft!
uh no.
I don't make decisions based on people who I don't know and who in the end do not (nor should they) have my best interest at heart. If that's the stand you want to take, why not "sometimes you have to step up and support it, for the sake of the community". That blade cuts both ways.
"well few others support it so I shouldn't support it either". I'm not a firm believer in letting the mob decide what I should play.
The company that initially botched Vangaurd, Sigil, is no longer in existence. I've heard all the tin foil hat conversations regarding Sony buying it so that it could die.
More than likely, Sony had mony into it and wanted to make that money back. They also wanted to boost their offerings on their Station pass.
Where sony fails in my eyes is that they should have put additonal money into the game just like any company would put money into a game and make the game a success. The game still has issues even years after its launch. And I agree, it's hard to ask players to pay for something that is not as smooth as many of the offerings on the market today.
So no, I don't think Vanguard can be saved by the players. or at least what is needed is a crticial mass of players who don't care about Vanguard's issues and are willing to flock en masse to the game. I just don't see that many people caring.
I could recommend it to a lot of people who play games but when they fire it up and start finding the little ideosyncratic bugs and quirks they are going to look at me like I'm nuts.
Going to Vanguard from, say, Lord of the Rings Online is like night and day as far as polish. And players are going to expect polish.
As Vanguard gets older and older it will have a more difficult time attracting people. I mean, look at games like DAoC or even original Everquest. They have loads of content and years of polish. And no one is rushing to play them.
I keep a Vanguard account because I am voting with wallet. And even though lately I don't have time to play I want to make sure that my one vote is heard. That a full world mmo is something that I want. Because we all know where full world mmo's seem to be going.
If you want to play the community card, how about "the community needs to start supporting, in earnest, games that embody more old school type of game play."
Because those people who don't like old school type of game play are swarming around games that they like and those are the games that are going to get noticed by other devs.
It's no accident that many recently released games have looked to WoW, good as it might be for some, for their inspiration.
Again...if the company that recieves the sub payment won't support the game, why in the hell would anyone else?
You're not "supporting" anything other than SOE's pocketbook. They could give a crap about you or your Vanguard account. SOE most certainly does NOT use your Vanguard sub money to support Vanguard.
By keeping your Vanguard account active, you're only suporting SOE's unethical practice of charging full price for a partial game, and you're supporting paying and rewarding SOE for letting this game rot.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes had its 'make-or-break year' back in 2007.
It didn't make it.
It doesn't deserve any more than it has already received. SOE have been generous enough in keeping the game on life support for the past three years, and expecting them to do more for a game that will never amount to more than being one of the industry's biggest disappointments is heading into the realm of wishful thinking.
There is no more PVP to be found on the PVP server or I would still have a sub, even if it was to play once a month because I put in a lot of work for those twinks . ...
: (
If they did a server wipe on the PVP server and had a relaunch, that could bring back a lot of PVPers . .. as it is now it would be to join a PVP server to never see anyone ever but on occasion a twink . ..
This was what I've been thinking... for quite a long time. However, this is not a Turbine title, but SOE. I very much doubt SOE would do this right for Vanguard.
They do suport the game, even though the suport is limited. But they did stop really investing in additional content. There is a difference.
Its not like that they sell half expantions at full price (then patch in the missing content and pass it as free content) Like a certain large mmo is doing.
There still is a huge overhead just to keep the game running as it is, there is a minimum playerbase needed to bring in enough money just to keep it running. Chances are that they are barely making the minumum requires to be able to keep it running IF even that.
Everyone knows that more promotion, more content, expentions or what ever you can think of will not save the game anymore.
Huge overhead??
You're kidding, right?
By the end of the year this game will be down to 1 server and 3 employees working on the game. Where is the HUGE overhead? This is minimal by ANY standards.
And yet, SOE charges the same monthly sub price that is does for EQ and EQ2, which both are fully staffed, get constant updates, and several expansions (and yes, we pay for these but at least it is forward progress).
Look at it this way....if SOE were General Motors, they would be selling a used Saturn (bought it used from Brad McQuiad and Saturn is "no more" , so no support), for the same price as a brand new Cadillac.
And you're okay with this?
And thats all the costs they have?
You are aware vg as it is costs more then its making right?
I could run a full cost list just to run servers but I see this is wasted on you.
The merging of servers and reducing staff isnt out of luxury. Anyone who learned basic math would understand this, you dont even require a basic understanding of finances.
Edited because I was being a smartass and it wasn't called for.
A f2p model would seem the very best option for saving Vanguard. I only played Vanguard a little bit, never got super far because I like to solo mostly. I did try to get friends to join with me one time but they didn't get into it, so much for attempt at getting to play a Blood Mage, hehe. I really like the concept of that class.
I would like to see Vanguard survive but as it has been stated, we got a flood of new MMOs coming out constantly. I get the feeling some of the older titles that didn't find immediate success are just going to get left behind whether they are good or not.
Flawed statement, you pay a significant lower price to buy the game now.
They are still maintaining a staff to perform maintainance as well as in and outgame help their customers.
But they are no longer investing in additional content.
So yeah, it is like general motors, they stopped trying to bring out new accesseries for you to buy.
You can still bring it in for maintainance and repairs.
Right. You got it! Everyone is always bitching in EQ2, wow we never get any content, it must be VG's fault! Close it down! (/sarcasm)So umm... You actually truely believe SoE and Sigil had your best interest at heart???!!! And I now sir place you in the 1% club because the other 99% of mmo players get it and you just dont.
whoa, where are you getting that?
I said nothing about soe and sigil having my best interest at heart. They are a business. And in the case of Sony they are a publicly traded company which means their investors are who they need to please.
This is not an "us against them" scenario as it's s silly scenario. There really isn't an 'us' as I play games for my own enjoyment not because some other gamer out there feels that I need to take some sort of morale stand.
When I buy a game or play a game I don't think of all the nice people on these forums and whether or not what I am doing is furthering their interests.
And I highly doubt most people on these forums would do what the mob suggested if the mob suggested they do something that is antithetical to what they desire.
It boils down to this.
Companies make money with their products. If I like their products I buy them. If enough people buy their products then they might make more products in a similar vein. I get the idea of not enabling companies to put out half baked products. But that's a slippery slope. I've never played a game that didn't have some bugs and they usually are minor. If there are actual game breaking bugs then I'd call it a day and move elsewhere. I tried Vanguard at launch and it wasn't a fun experience. S I didn't give them more money. I tried it about a year and a half into it's life (about that) and it was a far better game, playable for me, and so I gave them my money. Companies should be rewarded for making good too. And as I said, the game was playable and fun for me.
as far as me supporting my community, I support my real community. I buy local when I can, support local farmers, frequent privately owned businesses before large Chain stores/restaurants.
That's really all I'm willing to do as far as community.
Otherwise it's going to be me following a lot of disgruntled (though in many cases they do have good reason) and vocal players and I won't be playing anything because my "community" feels that I shouldn't until something that they deem good comes along.
I think I'll just take my chances on my own tastes and preferences.
You think EQ II players (I am one) even care if it exists, which I don't (more needing the time/money).
You also assume EQ II dev's split their time to limited Vanguard support.
Make it F2P already. Or bundle it... subscribe to any SOE MMORPG and get Vanguard free!
The game isn't strong enough anymore to sustain itself on its own; time to get creative. Vanguard is actually my favorite EQ1 replacement game; I just can't see myself playing it with the limited number of subscribers (or paying for it), both of which could be fixed by a F2P model.
Vanguard was a good concept, problem was it needed more time in devleopment. But SOE being the huge greedy corperation they are wanted their money and so forced Sigil to launch. When it failed at launch they bought it off Sigil and took over the development.
And true to SOE form they killed it like they have done to every other MMO they own. Just got to look at SWG and EQ1 and 2, along with the Matrix.
Why does everyone blame SoE that picked it up AFTER the failed launch?
How is EQ1 and EQ II being killed by SoE? I played EQ1 from like 1999 to 2001 (wish things personally didn't change that contributed to not playing), and played EQ II two weeks after launch and off/on for close to 6 years.
Everquest Next, The Agency, DC Universe Online and Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures are four of the biggest reasons that any sort of revival or reinvestment of funds/resources into Vanguard: Saga of Heroes will be miniscule to non-existant. Each one of those titles (well, maybe not The Agency) will pretty much be guaranteed cash cows for SOE while Vanguard will continue to be a drain/waste of resources.
If any of the upcomming titles that SOE are combined with the current Station Access Pass, you can bet that they will end up culling the dead wood from it.
VGs pitfalls and shortcomings are blatantly obvious. They are not to be outwieghted by the many wonderful aspects of the game. I could draw up a very big list. When the game started I was actually a little loney for other females with which to play. Guys are great, but sometimes it's fun to just have an in-game Girls night out. Currently, I am playing with almost as many female VG buddies as male. The point is, the community is fantastic, the lag is not the issue it once was. Content is growing slowly, but surely and there is certainly enough content now to keep a new Vanguarder busy for quite a while.
The scenary ranges from bleak, gloomy and creepy to stunningly beautiful. There are so many hidden gems in this game that I have not yet grown tired of logging in to explore. The mentoring system works like a charm .... the bragging can go on and on.
The only non tech recommendation I would make as a starting player is to get involved with an active guild and start off Qalia if you don't like to travel far and wide in game to complete starter level quests.
Feel free to stop by in game and give anyone from T A S C a friendly "hello"!
Website: T A S C Facebook: T A S CFacebook
If you are curious, give it a shot. Find someone in game that would enjoy showing you around. It could be a real eye opener. Of course if you would rather "go it alone" there is plenty of enjoyment to be had from that as well. Send a tell to anyone in TASC if you would like a starter tour!
EQ1 and EQ2 killed? EQ1 is 11 years old and still has a passable subscriber base despite 11 years of newer games. EQ2 is also going strong and well supported. Matrix was DOA to SoE, they just kept it on life support for a lot longer than anyone could have expected, and SWG was a combined blunder with Lucas Arts, no one knows for sure how much of that fiasco was which side. SoE haters are amongst the most ignorant groups of people Ive ever seen.That leach you call EQ2 actually generates revenue and has a player base.
SoE should just kill SWG and Vanguard and devote their resources to their current successful and future titles. Vanguard was a good idea from a dev team that couldn't put it out in a timely manner. They sucked up funding and the game still wasn't ready. Thank SoE for keeping that clunky piece of junk alive for so long (much longer than what it deserved) and then move on to a new game.
I play VG, i like it better than any other game out there currently, that being said ... i am eagerly awaiting EQ next, i would be in EQ II right now if VG did not exist.
F2P, SoE store items. It's the only way they'll ever make another dime on that game. No one will resub, there will be no expansions to purchase, it's a dead game, lost cause. The best they can hope for is a huge influx of eastern players upon making it F2P and hope that people will spend some hard earned cash on store items. They shot themselves in the foot at launch, tried to redeem themselves, got some players back, lost them all again when they failed to deliver promises about adding in AA's and additional parts to the game that will now never see the light of day. Bring on EQNext, bye bye VG, we barely knew ye.
I haven't logged onto Vanguard for about 2 months but I still pay my subscription
Anyway I have some really good news for everyone that to be honest I only read now on the official forms ....they are merging the 4 servers into 1 USA server.
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=53481
Vanguard doesn't need saving anymore ....now there will be ample people on the one remaining server
Now before people say " an MMO cant have one server and call itself successful" ...doesn't EVE have one server ?
This to me is good news ..and some people think SOE doesn't care ?
Because SoE was their publisher and forced them out 6-8 months earlier than originally promised to Sigil, and made them launch a week after WoW's first expansion.
I just love how there is always some excuse for soe games and the problem is "the haters".
The matrix was dead before Soe got it and that somehow justifies soe pushing the game into a closet until the game closed its doors.
Lucas Arts was the producer for swg and somehow responsible for the games failure to an "unknown" degree.
Yet when soe was the producer for vanguard, somehow the faults lay with Sigil for being the failure and was beyond the control of soe.
Seems that no matter where soe falls on the list of developer, producer or purchase, failure soon follows.
Then EQ2 is some sort of "success", because there is no second party to blame and people ignore the fact the EQ2 was bleeding players and shutting down servers during the biggest growth period the mmo industry has ever seen. Again, because the game was a complete mess.
The same goes for planetside and just about any title soe gets their hands on.
EQ is their only real success and even that was created before the formation of the life sucking entity that is SOE.
Agreed, F2P done right would be the only way to save this game; short of selling it for pennies on the dollar to a developer house that was actually interested in promoting, publishing & maintaining it. Even then, a solid F2P model might do it the most good.
Who knows what Sony will do for it anyways. They shoulda made EQ1 F2P a long time ago and they are letting it linger on, hanging onto the coattails of EQ2. It'll be interesting to see what happens. :-)
EvE Online also has a couple of hundred thousand subscribers and routinely has tens of thousands of players online at the same time. Vanguard is lucky to have a few hundred online during prime time hours. The difference between EvE Online's single server and Vanguard's upcoming 'one' would be like comapring Mount Everest to a pebble.
Don´t this SOE will save VG. Only thing i can think of to why they took over VG is that they are working on a new game (EQ3?) and wanted the ppl and the "system", a seamless world of this scale was new to SOE at that time.
Is there no edit button? ;)
I thought the number of pathetic "Please save poor old Vanguard" threads that have been appearing on this website over the years was bad enough, but the appearance of an article written by the websites staff that simply rehashes all of that whining crap is something I didnt expect to see. It's a bit.....ermm.....weird dont you think?
"Vanguard isn’t just a game, it’s a virtual world"
Ermm no actually it's just a thempark game like any other bog standard mmo. It's big. You can wander around and kill stuff wherever you like and read text files in between. Big deal. The world looks quite nice in some places and can trick you into feeling like you're in a virtual world but thats about it. Vanguard may have a few decent qualities but it never was and never will be a particularly good or successful game. I've never understood the fanatacism that this dieing game has attracted. Everyone who is into mmos knows about Vanguard.......and they still dont want to pay money for it so there ya go.
Turn Vanguard into a F2P game and some extra people might doodle around in it while they wait for something decent to come along. You could say that about any mmo though.
Your response seems very bitter. I hope I am not striking a sore spot with you. My apologies if so. However, over the past three months (maybe more?) there have been people returning in waves and a considerable amount of new subscribers. The forums are bubbling with new/returning players as well as those that are playing without ever visiting forums. The notable increase is actually what lead me here. To see why so many people are returning after trying so many others.
As far as being clunky, a few might have some adjustments to make, but for the most part, the game is generally running as well the others. I am not sure how long it's been since you have been on for any amount of time last. But if you say recently, I would find that hard to believe. Most people that have issues now need make only a quick, minor adjustment or so and they are good to go. Playing VG is not the ordeal that it once was.
I too am looking forward to EQnext and/or Rift, but that does not mean much. I remember how many players and entire guilds prepared and then left to try Tabula Risa, Darkfall, AoC and Aion. Many of those player have since returned or switched to console games discovering that the grass was not greener. I am not going to make that same mistake, but bide my time and stay observant.
It is a shame that VG had such a rough start and honestly their relaunch was less then adaquate. There is no doubt that it deserved a lot more time and TLC. However, Vanguard is still a great game that many of us have come to appreciate - especially after trying other games only to come back when others seemed pale in comparison.
Totally agree!!
"Can we save Vanguard?"
No, RIFT Planes of Teala will kill Vanguard, EQ2 and EQ in 1 go.
SoE lost the way long time ago, they never had the guts to make a real successor to EQ and now someone else is making EQ3 (While they are wasting their time with DC Universe and The Agency)
Vanguard is a great game but the population never picked up, mainly because for the first year the game was unplayable, and after a year people could not be bothered.
I tried to get into it, but games like Vanguard, which require lots of cooperation from other players for its great PVE, lacked the player numbers unfortunately.
I played EQ and EQ2 and I am usually one of those people who starts PUGs, never had problems with those games, but with Vanguard I found it really hard finding groups for PVE.
I don't like solo, I play MMOS only to do dungeons and Raids with other people.
I would like to see Brad McQuaid making another MMO though, this time behind a capable management team.
Maybe he could help with EQ3? What do you think Mr Smedley, will you take the challenge or will you let RIFT steal all of your customers?
I agree with ste2000,rifht:planes of telara looks very close to vanguard and eq in graphics. Many of those players will probably try the game out and see if they like it. I really hope SOE kill themselves,this shit they been tricking us for years is torture. Ive played Vanguard for 3-4 years and it hought it would get better..but nah it have got worse at some months and then more players join and then double of the players that joined leaves.
I've been playing Vanguard since the article re-reviewing it. I think it's the best MMO I've plaeyd to-date, and I will stay as long as I still enjoy it. :)
Vanguard needs to come up with something that no other game has that appeals to the masses. It has been a long time since I loaded Vanguard up, but the game seems to suffer the same problem as every other MMO out there. The game is just a graphically enhanced version of what already exists. Also, without dev ssupport the game is desitned to fail. New content is what keeps players interested and without that, no amount of player generated anything will matter. For this game to be successful SOE needs to do something uncommon and make major content additions that do not ruin the game (namely SWG). They also need to release content that is not what already exists in the current game (EQ2). With newer games coming out that are starting to earn the title of a third gen MMORPG (Rifts:Planes of Telara to name one), SOE needs to start adding original content or else this game is doomed.
No game out now can claim to be a third gen MMORPG because every game made since the first EQ is a cookie cutter copy with one or two differences at release and then they steal ideas from other games that get released. How about a living world people? Xyson Earth 2012 is trying this, but the graphics are so horrendous that the game will never be a major success. If Vanguard would have spent six months to a year longer in development it could have been great. The crafting is the best I have seen in any game and the diplomacy is a neat addition. The problem is this is where the differences stop. Other than these two things, Vanguard is the same as every MMORPG out there.
As a side note, the whole pull mob/spam keys until mob is dead/rinse and repear model for fighting needs to end. Conan tried this, but the melee is just organized key spamming. How about some tactical and meaningful combat?
Idea for Vanguard-
Get orignal
No offense, but I stopped reading there.
Vanguard has never been a game for the masses, and that's one reason people love it so much. It's not a dumbed down arcade adventure for all the 10 minute WoW gamers to have fun with. Vanguard already has plenty in it that no other games have, like the diplomacy, a game with aboslutely no load screens that you can literally fly through, and one of the best crafting systems around.
The game is sound as it is. What it needs, is a company to support it.
That's how a lot of people who still play it are. They will play until the game gets shut down or until they stop enjoying it. Which is why a lot of people want to continue to try to recruit new people to the game. I can't see it making a comeback but at least maybe they will leave it running a little bit longer. If people continue to get newer people to play.
Its been said many times and I will say it again. SOE will never ever ever ever sell Vanguard to another company or put any money into it. The only reason they took it was so that they could stuff it deep in a closet somewhere and let it die a slow death. Vanguard was an increadible threat to EQ2 and SOE knew it. So, being a business, SOE did the smart thing (for them) and bought Vanguard before any other company that might actually give Vanguard the resources it needed to truly shine.
Vanguard is right where SOE wants it to be.
I also will not be surprised if the next big mmo put out by SOE has some rather familure features that Vanguard has.
Vanguard was originally intended to be a game for the masses. That is the business model behind a mmo. The reason Vanguard is not played by the masses is because it was released to early and was awful at the start. I know I played it on day one. Well, if you can consider what that was as playing. Take a look at the original EQ. The game was not a dumbed down game, but had a huge population base. I never played WoW because it was designed for the casual player and that does not appeal to me. Casual elements are nice, but a whole game designed that was is just no fun. Mindless button mashing. It is also the reason I quit playing EQ2. I want a game that offers a challenge and offers something unique.
The only thing unique to Vanguard is diplomacy, which was quite fun. I would love to give Vanguard aother try, but I can't bring myself to play another game that offers nothing new. If the game could offer something new, i would definantly give it a try again. As it stands now, I might as well and go back and play Ultima Online. That game was a blast!
VG is a dead fish sadly. SOE effectively let it rot and most knew they would although some had hope. The only way to save it would be buy it from SOE and let someone else take the reigns.
Umm i dont know because well lets say because SoE Published it. If you publish crap you are just as much to blame as the people who developed the crap.
I wont say SoE forced them Sigil could of had some back bone and said its not ready. Sigil also wanted to launch it because they werent going to get anymore funding to continue this pile. So whats fastest way to get revenue? launch the title yeah its crap but you will get that inital 200k at 50 bucks a pop. Get the intial 10mil from that u know ur player base is going to drop to 10k. Then 15 x 10k then times that by 36months. Damn 5.4million How is this game afloat still??? didnt this game cost 60mil to make. Microsoft got burned but least there name isnt associated with this pile.
I will gladly work to promote Vanguard's rebirth, however the real cure in my opinion requires a stand alone expansion pack. In otherwords, a relaunch with the idea that its Vanguard 2.0 but with some changes and new content. During the period between the relaunch expansion, make Vanguard free like Shadow Bane was and encourage that viral promotion. People will flock to a game that is free. With the relaunch, you can rebuy the client and have a new stand alone client, a reborn Vanguard.
Also, they should take some notes from Fallen Earth, which managed to continue to grab subscribers with all sorts of special offers, events,trials ...ect.
I would love to come back to Vanguard but wont unless we can get that population up.
Also I firmly believe there needs to be world pvp. I know there is a set of hard core anti-pvpers who snobbishly have claimed the game, but they are one of the reasons I left not long after launch, along with all the problems. World pvp can easily be accomplished by having factions to join, and the factions will have allies and enemy faction. Being a member of a faction will allow pvp to happen. If you are not in a faction, you dont have to worry about being attacked. It creates an optional means to create player vs player play while leaving the pve only lovers to continue doing what they do.
Also forgot to add: The original plan was for Vanguard to get upgraded to unreal engine 3 through out its life cycle, it is still possible and can play a part in that "relaunch".
Oh how I'd love to go back and play my monk. Not the best class in VG, but it was very fun, almost as fun as my EQ1 monk.
Despite what the Vanguard community may think, Vanguard was never a threat to EQ2, as the game appeals to two completely different audiences. Vanguard was designed to appeal to the old school Everquest player while EQ2 was designed to appeal to a more casual fanbase that wants something a little more in depth than World of Warcraft. Many former Everquest players continue to play Everquest II, but EQ2 was never meant to suck subscribers away from the original as they are completely different games with completely a completely different take on the mmorpg genre.
You are aware that McQuaid went to SOE and not the other way around right? McQuaid went to SOE for financial backing and to find a new publisher with the agreement that SOE would have no real say in the direction of the product. Sigil had to release the product when they did because they no longer had money to fund the project, hence they folded soon after the game released. SOE took over because, as mentioned already, they were the publisher, the game looked good on the station pass, and while rough around the edges, it was a quality product. The problem was that there were simply too many bugs to fix for the small team of developers and players were leaving too rapidly. Vanguard doesn't get any funding now because it would be ignorant from a financial standpoint to poor money into an unproven product when the company already has at least two or three stable, moderately successful products in which the money can be better spent. Be lucky that SOE took over the reigns of Vanguard like they did, as otherwise the game would have died or it would have been bought by a company with little to no resources, and it would recieve just as much if not less attention than it has under SOE.
The fact of the matter is that Brad McQuaid and Sigil simply were not equipped to handle a game of the size and scope of Vanguard, and they paid for it.
If you push a game live that is broken and missing advertised features, then revamp it in ways the players don't want, then refuse to support it; it's gonna die. Players doing back flips to try to keep it alive, and make SOE some cash, just enables bad management imo.
I'm not in favour of pulling SOE's fat out of the fire every time they butcher another MMO. Maybe they would do better to examine their muliple failures (Matrix online, StarWars Galaxies, Vanguard etc.) and learn a few lessons.
The lessons are pretty obvious from the first paragraph, but just in case SOE execs can't spot them:
-don't push games live that are badly broken and missing advertised features,
-don't revamp the game in ways the players don't want,
-don't expect a game to do well with little or no development support,
-don't expect a large number of players to do your work for you and pay for "your" (cough, their own) efforts.
If players want to do some development and grassroots networking, there are plenty of open-source MMO projects to go around. If SOE won't develop and support good games, fine. Who needs them?
Each of us can only speculate what sony will do. Some of us will be closer to the mark than others. I have never viewed it as competition to any of Sony's other games. I have not really heard anyone that actually plays VG suggested that they had thought that either. Not in the beginning and not now. It does not matter if we think sony might relaunch, pay attention, put an expansion out, or not. It is unlikely, but crazier things have happened. We are not blind and it is not bad to be hopeful as long as you plan for contigencies. Still, any of those things would be exciting and I would be a very happy girl! I would / I am definitly sticking around and enjoying myself with the great company of my other VG friends to see what happens one way or another. We have made plans that we can stay together no matter the outcome, but we are certainly going to have lots of fun in VG. I am going to have a great time while it is available to me and not miss out on that opportinity.
SOE ppppppfffffffff ....right
SOE didn't even make Vanguard, but you can bet they are blamed for it's problems. If you really don't remember such recent history, let me remind you that *Sigil Entertainment* made the game with funding from Microsoft Game Studios, and they failed to provide anything of note after years of being on payroll. Once they got the money pulled out from under them is when production on the game really started, and by then it was too late, and they had the famous parking lot firings.
SOE bought the game, realized it was too late to salvage, and gave it a skeleton crew -what else can be expected with how this game even came to be, and the notoriety behind it - that you seem to forget and place solely on SOE - much like how nobody even questions Lucasarts' involvement in the NGE. It was their IP after all, you can't change something like that on a whim, it was most likely a request by the owner of the IP itself. Of course SOE has to burn for it though.
When SOE is the producer of Vanguard they are not at fault, because sigil is developing the game. When soe is developing starwars they are not at fault, because it was most likley the producers making changes. How exactly is that possible?
Do you really think soe had no idea what condition vanguard was in before they bought it and only then realized it might be a project that was beyond repair?
Perhaps the fact that Microsoft dropped the project should have been the first clue to SOE that funding a failed project without making necessary changes would just continue the failure.
All things said and done, soe did pretty well on the failure of vanguard didn't they? Sigil lost out, Microsoft lost out, 200k players lost out, but soe sure got a lot out of the deal.
SOE cut funding to sigil and that forced sigil to release. Sigil did not want to release in the least bit.
Nor was sigil going to see 100% of the money from the box sales. SOE was going to get its cut. Retail stores were going to get their cut. Sigil would be lucky to see a few million of that 10 million in sales once everyone was paid.
Not to mention sigil had a $30 million dollar debt to pay off, but you keep thinking they made tons of money.
5.4 whole million dollars in the first year. Hrmm...
Sigil had no money, and after two publishers poured loads of cash into what was still a buggy mess after years and years of development, they had no choice. SOE is a business, and as a business, their sole priority is not to fund the pet projects of old school MMORPG fans.
The case with SWG is the idea that the orders for the NGE came down from Lucas Arts in an attempt to attract subscribers to a game which was absolutely bleeding dollars. Lucas Arts had the power to change the direction of the game they were publishing, and SOE did not.
You people have completely lost touch with reaiity. Microsoft funded Sigil because they split from SOE, then they stopped funding them and SOE bought them out. Go read a news report on it or something, but seriously, it's not so long ago that anyone should forget or alter the facts as to what happened.
Sigil was not bought out by SOE until after the release of Vanguard and after the company folded.
Author states: "SoE is a business and must operate within the confines of such."
Recommended course of action by author: "Mass petitions to SoE".
Welcome Mr. Dreams. Please meet Mr. Reality...
If they could ditch SOE I'd try it.
Thank you for posting this editorial.
Vanguard is the first game I have gotten this attached to since playing Asheron's Call years ago, and it would be a shame if this outstanding game only became another footnote in MMO history. I have played on and off since mid-2007. There are times when this game breaks my heart, and times it lifts my soul.
Vanguard had a lot of problems in the past, and Vanguard is not devoid of problems today, yet there is still something very very "special" and wonderful about this game, that no other MMO on the market has for me.
This is the one game that I would probably break down and cry over, were it ever closed down for good.
I hope everyone out there at least has a chance to try this game at least once. Link for free 14-day trial: http://vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/
Since SOE had ALL the money in the deal with Sigil so they could have made Sigil agree to whatever terms they wanted. Since Sigil had no bargaining power in the contract, there is little they could do. As the saying goes, he with the gold makes the rules.
I'm not saying sigil didn't fail to get their job done, but soe funded a known failure and didn't force sigil to correct their mistakes. No company could be stupid enough to expect the trainwreck of sigil to self correct and somehow become a success. Then soe cut funding when the game was nearing completion, scooped up the remains of a mostly completed game, hired the best staff (moving the very best to non-vanguard projects) and then game vanguard players free EQ2 time to entice them away from the game.
Soe never wanted the game to succeed. If they had the money to buy the company they had the money to fund the game to completion like they said they were committed to.
Oh as for the NGE, several SOE developers admitted it was their idea and they had to campaign to get the idea approved. Not to mention that massive combat revamps are a hallmark of what soe thinks will turn their games around. See EQ2/Matrix/Free Realms for non lucas arts revamps.
i dont think we can save this game SOE make crap game with bug i left everquest 2 because the game have bugs and lags as hell and since the shader 3.0
Shader 3.0 lol it make your character completly black and if u dont have any real friend to play with u skip 60% of the game its like imposible to find a group and the Looking for group tool is totaly dead
SOE did is time now its time to close the door or turn free to play should be a option but with all new mmogs that are announced lol and with all bad things about them i dont think any games from SOE could survive
i had a very bad experience with Everquest 2 and same with vanguard i now play AION and i enjoy the game
with all bad experience i had with SOE i will never buy or paye a game with the SOE logo
Well, it's possible I suppose.
I mean, family guy was cancelled how many times? And people writing in as well as dvd sales convinced them to bring it back.
of course, that would mean Vanguard would have to at least increase in numbers enough to back up those petitions.
In the end what i see from game companies is that they put out a game, back it with as much as they can for a small bit and then they move on.
The two games that I can think of that arent' like this are WoW and EVE. Turbine seems to do this though I can't speak for Asheron's call.
That's why I really respect CCP. They are in the business to make EVE great and at the moment, EVE is their only business. Even with Dust and the Vampire/Werewolf game they are working on, Dust ties into eve and the vampire game seems like they are diversifying.
But other companies seem to be in the business of making games. They make one and move on, make one, move on.
NC Soft does this as well. not that they completely leave the game in a lurch but they just seem to be more about making games than makine "a" game as great as they can.
Speaking of Family Guy cancellation. http://video.adultswim.com/family-guy/weve-been-cancelled.html
The game was not near completion. It launched with an entire continent unfinished in addition to MOUNTAINS of bugs. Even three years later, the game still plays more like a beta test than a finished product. Sigil owed money to Microsoft from the previous partnership and had to release it at this point. Expecting SOE to pick up the tab for Sigil's debt is laughable. SOE salvaged what they could, and at least at launch, Vanguard was given a somewhat large development team with around 50 former Sigil employees. They fixed bugs and added content, but the problem was the game was still a buggy mess. People left and continuing to fully fund a failing MMORPG simply wasn't in SOE's plans. Even their flagship title suffers from a lack of dev support compared to the game at launch. Neither game was as successful as SOE or Sigil had planned, and as a result, SOE doesn't have mountains of cash to spend on paying developers to add new content and to polish bugs. The difference is that while EQ2 is a moderate success, Vanguard is a failure. It failed at launch and continued loosing subscriber after subscriber. EQ2 went through a period of server merges and population issues, but as the game began to gain subscribers, it gained content. Games with a healthy playerbase get bug fixes and content. Dying mmorpgs get put on life support. I realize Vanguard is precious to you, but the blame falls on Sigil for attempting to develop a game beyond the scope of their abilities and not SOE for simply running their company as a business should.
The conspiracy theory idea is absolutely ridiculous. SOE is in the business to make a profit, and ingesting millions of dollars into an unproven product simply is not the way to run a business. If Vanguard was bug free and ready for release upon the time of the SOE takeover, SOE would not care what game is making them a profit because a profit is being made. If Vanguard had a sizable playerbase, and SOE was taking in large amounts of revenue from them, they would develop more content for Vanguard to placate the existing playerbase or to attract even more players. Vanguard is not making SOE any money, and resources are better spent funding projects that are actually going to make SOE a profit. SOE is not under the leadership of a bunch of twelve year olds who are mad at Sigil because they think SIgil's game is better than their's is, and the entire idea is laughable. Throughout the history of this laughable excuse, there has not been one single shred of evidence that SOE did, in fact, choke the life out of Vanguard to fluff the subsciber numbers of their flagship title, and the only defense is usually nothing more than bitter vanbois grasping at straws by doing taking offense to such things as SOE having the audacity to run free EQ2 trials for former players among other things. Seriously, stop the conspiracy crap, take a walk outside of your basement, and face reality.
Appealing to the masses is the business model of games like WoW or FreeRealms. Vanguard was always designed to be a far deeper, far less casual game than those, and thus, was not a game to appeal to the masses.
It had a harsh death penalty, large leveling curves, no instances, a complex crafting system, few fast travel options. These things do not have mass appeal. Mass market players don't want immersive virtual worlds, they want WoW arcades.
I like Vanguard; it is an old-school full featured MMO, not too crowded and no spammers. I hope it can be kept alive, with enough subs.
As the paying customer...we don't "save" Vanguard, that's the designers job.
It's very simple really - if it was worth playing / paying for, it wouldn't have this problem.
Market forces cast its vote on this game. Consider yourself luck SOE didn't pull the plug altogether.
I love Vanguard,its really the only MMO thats out that I can get into right now.
Huge open world,lots of classes/races,minimal instancing,nice graphics..etc
All that potential gone to waste because it was pushed out too early,now it sits a shell representing what it could have been.
The only way that SOE would actually focus on that game is if the pop grew significantly,which most likely will not happen.Pains me to say it,but I just cant see this game making a come back.
Makes one wonder where it'd be today if it had a solid launch and a dedicated team behind the scenes.
I think a better question would be, why do we want to?
TERA is coming out soon, so are the three new MMO's including the SyFy MMO from the guys at Trion. Plus there's Guild Wars 2, and a plethora of other games coming out. There is no reason to keep these other games on life support because the 20,000 that play that game would be a great addition to a new community so that IT can thrive and become successful as well.
I really hate these threads about saving types of genres or specific games that got a poor launch. It seems like the fans really just can't accept what is simply undeniable about those games; they failed.
And someone mentioned above that if it were good then people would come pay for it. This isn't true. Launch is the most important part of an MMO's success, and a good launch can maintain a surprising number of subs for a long time, even if there is no real content to play (like in Star Trek).
You left out a COA (course of action) that the players can take. Let me tell you a story called: Waht happened to Allegiance online after it was canceled. Allegiance online is still running and it's not being maintained by the company the made it eather, it's being run by a group of volunteers as F2P. In other words players volenteering to maintain an MMO has been proven posible, so this could happen to vanguard. However there is a catch, before this can be done SOE must release vangaurd under a shared source licence.
PS: dont ask about the bold (I thingk there is a glitch in the comment system that keeps me from turning it off)
I forgot to add my sourc of info in my last comment: heres a wikipedia link
There is so much you are giving me credit for that I didn't say I don't know where to start.
To keep it short, vanguard was NEARING completion, not complete, not quality or in good shape. It was getting to a point where it might have survived launch and made enough money to last until things could shape up. A mile of difference between the point you think I am making.
Also I never said soe was going to pick up the tab from microsoft. Soe offered sigil a lifeline when brad ran to his old buddy. Soe had all the money in that bargain and they could have put in a dozen managers if they wanted, because sigil had nothing to bargain with. Yet soe did nothing to correct the problems sigil was having and watched as the game continued down the same doomed path it was one.
In the end soe gained a game for station pass, tons of developers (many who left soe to begin with), a game that would eventually pay for their small investment and killed a direct threat to EQ/EQ2... all by just sitting back and watching sigil repeat the same mistakes they made with microsoft. It is a winning deal for soe and they get to look like "saviors" who gave the game a second chance.
If soe was investing in sigil to make profits with vanguard they wouldn't have been so fucking stupid to let sigil keep managing itself into the hole it was already in, let alone help make a game that was going to steal players away from their games and thus reduce their revenues by splitting it with sigil, split their resources and divide their playerbase over 3 games. Nothing in that situation helps soes bottom line.
Soe never put a real effort into doing anything with vanguard. From the point they published it to the point where they purchased it. "investing" in vanguards failure was in the best interest for soe if you really look at it.
I recieved the email as did my wife. We both beta tested vangaurd, and played it at launch. The crafting was great made you think. However most of the game systems were totaly broken. I played for the first 3 months then gave up. I came back about 2 months ago for a free trieal for amonth.
You know what the same broken game was still broken in the same way. I was like wow this game still suffers from stuff found in beta, with one exception. Nobody to be seen.
So my thoughts are just shut the game down merging evrybody into one server does nothing, if you still refuse to fix the broken game designs.
You might have more folks running around but what good does that do.
Im sorry I loved the idea of this gaem in beta and when ift first rolled out. I am at the point now of not giving a rats rear end.
Let it die already.
Nope.
I loved Vanguard during the later beta stages, and despite all the bugs, despite the unfinished systems, I probably convinced a dozen friends to buy the game at launch -- and then spent months apologizing to them after SOE ripped the heart out of it and replaced it with a gumball machine that dispensed WoW-flavored gum.
What made Vanguard awesome was the unique return to old-school ideas. Being able to actually get LOST, because there was no radar-blip map. Having to actually walk or ride across huge distances to get places, and thus planning your dungeon raiding by geography rather than whim. Crafthing that was actually more than clicking a button (although the ORIGINAL EQ2 system was better). The original combat system with counters and reactive abilities was also nerfed, although some of that happened before SOE came in (they knew it wouldn't be finished in time for launch).
Once SOE "saved" the game, they started ripping all that stuff out and giving us another easy-mode game that just didn't feel original any more.
A game lives or dies by being original. Vanguard has lost any sense of being a unique game, and frankly I'd rather spend my money playing EQ2, as it's more polished and not all that different.
About the only thing that would save Vanguard, at this point, is converting it to a free-to-play model and hoping enough people will pay for perks to keep the servers running.
It is still very broken for me too (literally unplayable), but I agree with the idea of a price plan change, and that it can be saved with a combination of player support and SOE stepping up to the chance at higher subscriber numbers and interest for the moment.
The thing is, the best and probably only chance for that to work is for SOE to drop whatever they are doing on VG and get some of these ideas implemented immediately while they have the extra fan support recently. I wouldn't be surprised if mmorpg.com's support from "After Hours" members is quickly becoming a majority of the population still subscribed, and I admire that initiative a lot (Damn fine work fellow-gamers
).
If SOE let's that show of subscriber support and income go to waste though, then VG is as good as done regardless of what the players do. I would even take the time to fix my crashing and get solutions posted for others if I knew SOE was doing half as much to keep the game alive and well. I just can't enjoy an MMO when I see it's about to disappear, especially due to a developer ditching it almost entirely. TR was one of my favorites, but unfortunately when NCS announced it closing, I never logged in again even with all the last minute content patches thrown in. SOE isn't going to get people like me back to support VG if they can't even put any effort in to their own product and just leave it for dead.
First lets get some facts straight. the OP may hate EQ/EQ2 but they are not the parasites, Vanguard is. If it was not for station pass that allows vanguard its semi-parasitic existance Vanguard would already have had the plug pulled.
Second Vanguard really did die along time ago. It was released in tragic state with Fanbois still hyping it as the holy grail for anyone hardcore enough. and it that wasn't insult enough those same fans went on to state anyone experiencing bugs were obviously playing on a $500 best computer etc.
In the end its not actually the players responsibilty to pay for a beta game till it finally gets its shit togher In Vanguards case its only taken what 2 + years of pay to play beta test? I imagine Brads still off on a beach somewhere chuckling for having successfully unloaded this hunk of junk (putting it kindly) on SOE.
Personally I'm tired of every year hearing the same tired old speel of how Vanguard is finally fixed and how dispite yet another round of server merges the play base is growing?!
It may have been a good idea, but vanguard is dead. I say let it die peacefully and let another developer take a swing at what it could have (but always failed) to be.
Yes I agree here, when I read the rant about how SOE has killed the game. They let it live, if not for SOE the game would never have made it out of beta and to live. Station pass has been what has kept the game going. I do agree this game has seen a lack of dev design, the reason why is the fact it has no player base, thus were in the 3rd round of server merges. I think this is the games last hope, and SOE is trying one last attempt before sending it to the file 13 box. Quite honestly this game needs to be where matrix is now.
It is time to admit it was a failure, and move on.
Quite personaly EQ2 is a much better game and has kept me going since lotro chased me away. I don't see how they are the parsite they were around before, and will be around quite frankly for a few more years.
If you want to save something, save the whales or the American wetlands or help preserve old films. I'm serious. You would be doing some good with the investment of your time and at least have a chance of success. Your work would mean something.
This game isn't worth your efforts and it cannot be saved. It has bad karma, and it has it for a reason. From its mismanagement, its misrepresentations, the obnoxious community urging everyone to go back to WoW and then QQing when they do, its firing of half the staff in a parking lot, its horrible beta, its horrible launch, its horrible history since launch ... why would you want to save it? Why would you think you can?
the answer isnt VANGUARD the answer is Guild wars 2. /FANBOY love off
on a serious note why invest in a game that could of been a brilliant piece of artwork. but is now a shrivelling rose..
the rots kicked in, deaths inevitable.
only way this game would survive is pure cash injection.
Yeah, let it die, so we can read more excuses "But EVERY MMO has instances and loading screens".
This is a serious question.
I am curious what anyone who wants to save vanguard and the original poster think they could possibly do to get soe to listen to their ideas and concerns.
Writing petitions? creating a facebook group? making some fan videos? Do people even realize what company we are talking about here? Soe doesn't care about its players opinions and they certainly don't care about what people want who are not giving them money. Just look at the history of how this company operates and tell me what anyone here could possibly do to get some attention let alone get soe to take action.
This is a company with a long standing tradition of listening to their balane sheets and ignoring their pleas and desires of their players. They only react to drops in revenue.
I'm not sure what people think they could accomplish with words when dealing with soe.
too bad, i played it and loved it.......realy good game for the older mmorpg players.....not just a kids game.
As a new old returning player I see a lot of crying for this and that and reasons given mostly by people not playing VG as to why they should not play VG. I'll be plain... VG needs to stop any huge development and continue to do focused bug bash updates. Beyond anything else its the bugs and general feel of the UI that sends people packing not that there is a limited end game. Because frankly end game doesn't factor into leaving while still on the trial isle ;) And VG isn't a licensed IP so it won't shutdown like Matrix did. We're very soon to be on one server, which further reduces overhead so keeping the game in supported but not advanced status is cheap.
I've still yet to experience an MMO in which the love of the developers oozes out of every polygon quite as it does in Vanguard. It rivals single-player RPGs like Baldur's Gate II and Dragon Age in that way. Phenomenal.
I'd love to see it brought back to the level it was under Microsoft in Beta 2, but I don't foresee that.
Vanguard is dead, there is no use in SOE investing money to save it, when they can take the innovations it brought to the market and put them into EQ3 and give them a proper launch; it will be better for SOE and MMO's in the long run.
I wish, really wish the answer to "can we save Vanguard" was yes, but sadly SOE will not let that happen.
In my opinion, the biggest factor that is killing Vanguard is its CODE. The code is a mess which is the main cause of the lag. It is not that people's computers can not handle Vanguard, it is because they don't want to. LOL
I am going to have to say that Vangurd will be either F2P soon (which will kill it), or hopefully sold to a independent that will give it some TLC. (Brahahaha, never going to happen). Vanguard is a hellva a lot better than EQ2, so SOE will not allow for VG to get anymore better. But again, EQ2 code is solid, VG... not so much.
I can't wait for the game to be cancelled. This game never was going to succeed after trying to appeal to the FEW EQ1 fans, they never acknowledged how many DESPISED EQ1 and should have designed a game based on that instead. In other words a anti-raider game pro-casual.
Well, after reading the article, my response to the question "Can we save Vanguard" was "Well maybe, let's see what folks think."
120+ forum posts later, I guess the answer is "No, and here's 10 pages of stuff we can argue about game companies."
Yeah, VG is circling the drain, and yes it's a very old (in MMO terms) title, and has all the bugs and performance issues (though I don't know what this "character animations" gripe is about, they look fine to me, maybe I'm just playing the wrong classes?).
While I agree that the server merge (now announced for July 7th I think) can only help the game (in terms of cutting maintenance costs somewhat as well as concentrating the existing player base), I don't think it exactly puts the game into EVE status. I think Sovrath was the one who mentioned CCP's incredible dedication to the EVE game and universe, and how they are an exception among MMO companies in that, rather than just moving onto the next shiny title after a luke-warm release (looking at you, Cryptic) in that they commit themselves to the same game and expand it. (Yeah Sovrath, I follow your posts, deal with it ;) ).
Vanguard, unfortunately, has no such luck. I'm under-impressed by SOE's management of any titles (who cares if they developed it initially or not, yes Sigil screwed the pooch on this one but SOE owns the game now), so it's doubtful they'll do anything to surprise us with this one.
However, for those of us actually enjoying the game, hopefully the server merge will buy us some time before the game gets shut down permanently.
And yeah, I do think it's important to support Vanguard, if not financially, then at least vocally, for the type of MMO it was supposed to be. The vision that was in Vanguard shouldn't be lost simply because its execution was so horribly mismanaged. The MMO-scape is getting increasingly more "Hey look, it's WoW again, except our elves have wings and there's Pokemon in it!", and while I'm glad that the industry is getting so much attention, I can't help but regret that the options for games in the vein of Vanguard are becoming few and far between.
I disagree that going F2P would kill the game, as someone said. If SOE would cave and use Vanguard as a test-dummy for their F2P mini-transaction model (which, if they're being honest with themselves, they're going to HAVE to use for EQnext), it certainly couldn't HURT the game worse than it already is.
Anyway, there's my 2+ cents.
"Now, if we were to get a little cooperation from SOE,..."
That'll happen only after hell has frozen over. SOE has proven time and again they don't give a rats butt about what ideas the players of their games have. It's SOE's way or the highway.
All of your ideas are fine but in my view they must be prefaced with one action: A divorce of SOE from Vanguard. If SOE sells the game off to another companies and severs it's ties with the game, then Vanguard has a chance. Too many people don't trust SOE and don't play VG for that reason (me being one).
I remember asking a SOE rep (think he as VP of something or another, not sure) if he could guarantee me, on the initial VG forums at the time it was announced SOE would handle publishing, that SOE wouldn't take over the game and hit it with it's own NGE. He couldn't. But, the polar opposite happened: They taken a laissez faire approach to the game.
I have to totaly agree at this point your going down to one server. Do you really thing they have enough proffit from vangaurd at this point to pay a full dev staff?? Realy there probably not many folks working on it at all. This game has been on life support for the past year as it is anyway.
The only way to save it would be for soe to sell it and somebody who is willing to drop about 240 million into the game. I just dont see that happening. After all you had WB sind 180 mill into lotro and what did you get with that F2P with a store that sells items and unlocks to instances. I cant see anybody really wanting to do that for this game.
Would you even play vangaurd if it was the model that DDO uses?
The game has such a massive world and so much going for it, theres just one problem
SOE!!
I seen casual anti raider games in plenty, thanks. Last STO.
It is good that there are some games for old EQ players too, EQ did have a huge population once, in fact did Blizzard find Kaplan when Morhaime played EQ, they were in the same guild and became friends.
There are room for a few games like VG among all the casual games, at least 90% of all games aim for casual players.
Problem with Vanguard was that the idea behind it was sound but SIGIL didn't have the programmers to make the game. SOE probably just bought it up so no one else would fix it up and have it take players from EQ 1 & 2.
Vanguard can be saved but should it? It costs a lot of money and SOE can take all good features instead to Everquest next, to actually polish up and re release the game will cost a fortune that SOE could spend on next EQ game instead.
If enough players actually start play then SOE will start supporting it again but I doubt that will happen. I personally think it is pretty nice but I rather have EQ3 then a revamped VG.
My wife and I have started to play VG over the last month and to be honest it has been very enjoyable.
WHile the community is small for the most part they are very helpful, the game itself has been fun as the crafting and our overall experiance has been very enjoyable.
That being said it is also hard for us to press on knowing that EQ1 & 2 are still getting x-pacs and love to them, but the reality is that VG will never get any of this. So do we want to press on and keep lvling?
Well we are going to continue to pay our subs and enjoy the game for what it is. COuld it be better? sure. But then again so can any game out there. It is all in the players point of view f how the game should be. So we will continue to move forward and until either the game gets cancelled or we can simply go no futher (we are a pally & cleric) we will continue to enjoy ourselfs and plod along :)
Vanguard will never be any more popular, polished or populated than it is right now. No amount of "word of mouth" viral testimonials will ever convince those who have left for watever reason; to come back. If you look ack over the last few years about every 6 months we see posts about how the population is booming! and how the game is fixed! no bugs! The Vanguard diehards will say anything to get a months sub out of you for their dying game. Its sad really.
There have been so many excuses for why Vanguard failed. None of them matter any more. It is a failure and SOE knows it. Why should they throw away money to advertise a failed project. Everyone who has ever had an interest in the game has tried it and left or they have stuck with it thinking themselves noble or mature or hardcore in supporting a poor underdog of a game.
It's impossible to argue with almost every single post out there with regards to this topic, but I will say that where you stand depends largely on what you, as a gamer, hold dear. The only options left are to: 1. Support the game for the game's sake (or perhaps at least stand up for the type of game it could have been) or 2. Continue to keep away from it due to its incomplete foundation and unfortunate history in hopes that it will eventually die.
Personally, I look at it like a child. Daddy abandoned it because it didn't grow up fast enough and then Mommy died, leaving it in the care of a new, rich, snobby and reluctant foster parent. Its new home was more of a place for it merely to reside and it doesn't receive the same love and care as its foster parent's "real" children. Instead, it is left on what can barely be called life support. In the end though, it's not a child, it's a product, so people are undoubtedly within their rights to want to “euthanize” it.
That said, you've got many types of gamers and they all have varying opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with a seemingly near-dead game. One of my best friends stopped playing the game soon after launch because he wasn't going to play a game that wasn't finished or that didn't work in its entirety. Then you've got me and my better-half who continued to play long after its horrid launch and subsequent changes due to the sheer fact that for a game in-and-of itself, it was (for the most part) exactly what we had been wanting to play. If your dream MMORPG means . . .
1. Extremely difficult to near impossible quests
2. Slow, hard-earned leveling
3. Complex and involving . . . everything
4. Serious consequences and penalties
5. Truly learning and mastering your class
6. Open, seamless masterful environments
7. Reputation/Favor is it's own sphere of gameplay (Diplomacy)
8. Kill-on-sight (KoS) locations (at least there used to be a few left)
9. Numerous race and class combinations (and character customizations)
10. A quality combination of classical and original takes on fantasy MMORPG elements.
. . . then all of the flaws of the game may not matter to you. Then again that depends on what those flaws are, right? Flaws include (but are not limited to):
1. Lag (often due to intense graphical resource requirements)
2. Low server population (though that may change slightly since the servers combined)
3. Staggered level of extreme difficultly for nearly all areas and quests
4. Lack-luster animations for skills and abilities
5. Rare (but possible) falling through the world (yes, still)
6. The new n00b starting area is much more simple and rewarding than the main land
7. High auction prices with few buyers/bidders
8. Class solo-abilities range from do-able (Psion/Necro) to impossible (Warr/Rogue)
9. Class group-abilities range from necessary (Tank/Healer) to give-or-take (Ranger)
10. Lack of true, helpful and adequate game support
Outside of the game I have nothing positive to report; however, if you make your gaming decisions solely based on the game itself, then those few factors listed above may help in making up your mind. I still find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes one of the absolute best MMORPGs I've ever played, but I make my decisions largely based on the type of game it is . . . that's just me, though. I would still be playing today if I hadn't, at one point, run through nearly the entire game a few times. I loved it and couldn't get enough but after running through all of the raids up to level 50 a few dozen times, I felt that I had maxed myself out for the time being. I'm often very tempted to go back, and if there were a few updates here and there I wouldn't be posting here (and the article might have never been written). I may still go back for the 50-55 end-game raiding quests that have been added, you never know.
In any case, if the on-goings outside of the game contributes to your over-all contentment with a game or if you require pure refinement in all elements of a game, you'll likely want to steer clear of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. The game's wishy-washy past, ownership, support and occasional instability are certainly cause for concern but are by no means the ONLY factors by which a potential player could/should make their final decision. The game, in-and-of itself (flaws aside) can still be an amazing experience through-and-through for hardcore/veteran and new MMORPG gamers alike.
Generally, I probably agree. I disagree with these, though. I have found a nice mix of quests. Many are easy. That should be tempered with the knowldeg I've ionly been up to 20.
However, I the the animations positively rock. I could not disagree more with your assessment they are lack-luster. IMO, I've seen no better.
If you're asking me, the answer is a resounding no. I've already expressed my opinion of Turbine's actions with DDO and LOTRO. Those are their games to do with as they will but it doesn't mean I have to like it or support it with my cash or presence. There are other games doing things the way I like subscription-wise and there are plenty of other hobbies outside of MMO gaming I can channel my money toward.
I don't need "a la carte" nor am I a fan of "monetizing" or "accessibility". I just want a plain ole monthly subscritpiton for access to a game world. People who want those aforementioned things are more than welcome to their own games that provide them.
I apologize for my #1 because I did not specify that not ALL quests are this way. Many are, but certainly not all. The quests you'd LOVE the rewards from are most likely near impossible though, lol. I'm speaking of quests like Haekemish . . . try that at level 11 or 12 in a full, well-rounded group. It's no walk-through. We once logged on our main characters at level 50 try to walk the rest of the guild through and we were nearly getting whacked, forget keeping the lowbies alive. There are areas in that game that are simply scaled to be WAY too difficult for the rewards the yield, IMO. Then again, I love that! Only the best should get the best gear, and so forth and so on.
As for #4 . . . to each their own, perhaps? I'm very happy to hear that you are pleased with the animations! I definitely don't find them disgusting or ridiculous, just not as . . . well, I don't know, good as I've seen in other MMO's. As you level up you'll notice that your level 15 "swipe" is the same as your level 45 "sunder" and so on and so forth. Perhaps that's just because I've played a lot but many of the skills/abilities cross-class animate as well, meaning that the ranger slash is the same as the warriors swipe, etc. I guess it's not too bad and if it doesn't bother you, then there's no point in worrying!
Thanks for your reply to my post. It's good to know that new players are still just around the corner. Now I'm every tempted to go back and run n00b help on the isle for a couple months again. Happy Hunting!
I loved the idea of this game and at one time considered giving it a go. Now this never happened and I've stuck with more popular MMOs such as EQ2, WoW, EVE, LOTRO... I am not going to pass judgement on the actually quality and merits of Vanguard but what I find astonishing is the lack of knowledge of how business actually works. A couple of points:
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
I think if you're looking for ulterior motives one more feasible theory is that SoE simple wanted to poach some of the Sigil developers. In the end SoE is a business just like Blizzard, just like CCP, and no matter what you might think about these companies, they're not doing stuff out of the goodness of their hearts. You can try to convince yourself all you want that CCP REALLY cares about their community, but the bottom line is, they do because it helps them make money. *I* personally have no problem with this, all companies need to recoup their initial investments, and also pull in enough cash to keep an MMO going with new content and features.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
One of the best PvE MMORPGs on market, if not the best. Had alot of fun while playing it and I hope it will live another several years
so true, so true.
I can't tell you how many meetings I've been to where some new strategy or some inital plan for an acquistion was laid out only to have nothing change after 6 months.
I agree with this pretty much, except the let it die comment. Besides for that I think it's right on target. Sony only picked this game up to get rid of the competition that it may provide, then just let it decay and erode into nothingness. They have basically no development team working on the game and it's been like that for years now. There are many things that COULD be done to get this game going again (hyped relaunch, F2P change, many more devs added to the team, etc), but none of that will ever happen for the exact same reason already mentioned; they DO NOT WANT THIS GAME TO SUCCEED. If there is any doubt of this, just look at how they handled the game since purchasing it, don't blindly say "they wouldn't buy a game if they didn't want it to succeed." Oh yes they would!
Do you even know the difference between a PUBLISHER AND A DEVELOPER? At launch SOE was a PUBLISHER. (aka they made the physical disc's for sale, ran game servers etc ). Sigil is the DEVELOPER (was in charge of game concepts , coding etc etc) .
Its widely know that SoE was the one who swooped in and gave Sigil and infusion of Capital since MS bailed on them as the original backer. Your notion that SoE ran the show when it comes to game development is laughable because if that was the case it would have simply became another WoW clone like eq2 became because why? That is where the money's at.
SoE's purchase of VG was a smart business move in more then one way. They were able to gain a license to EPIC's Unreal engine via back-door, they had code already on hand using Unreal in an MMORPG format ( it was a bastardized 2.5 build but still). Reason why this is important is because SoE has acknowledged that they will be using the Unreal engine in the future for several MMO titles they are developing. Another factor that people just don't see is that McQuaid was ALWAYS in good terms with Smed and SoE. SoE bailed out Brad and now he is working with them again. ( despite what you believe Brad is a great MMO developer, but a Poor manager. )
Also next time you post, please use some form of spell checker. trying to sound smart with numerous spelling error's makes you look silly.
No matter who made it, who likes whom, or which engine runs what, I am enjoying the game. It's fun, pretty and vast. It is not perfect and the key to really seeing as much content as possible is to get connected with active players (population is low - excited for server merger), but there is no "perfect" game out there. Some very harsh critisizm is from first glances a couple years ago and some of the current input is valid. It's hard to tell what is real and what is assumption from sony haters (I don't know a thing about the company - I play the game, not the company). All of that aside, I an many others are really enjoying ourselves in the game and I don't want to not like the game just because someone thinks that I shouldn't because they don't like sony.
In general, it's a great game for explorting, questing, adventuring, etc. The harvesting is not bad, people seem to like the crafting (I don't do it), and the diplomacy .. either you like it a lot or not at all. I like it.
Brad is not working with soe and has not since soe purchased sigil. He was mentioned as a "consultant" and nothing more. Brad even says on his blog has hasn't worked on a game and is looking to get back into the market now.
You are spot on correct about corporate culture. Soe might not have been able to fix the corporate culture of Sigil, but you overlook the most important aspect of the situation. Soe never tried. They took a completely hands off approach and let sigil continue operating exactly as they had when they were being funded by microsoft. I don't even think they had an soe employee at the location. For fucks sake, Brad went missing for something like six months and soe didn't do anything about it?
Sigil wasted $30 million dollars of microsofts money and didn't even have a skeleton of a game to show for it after 4+ years. The vanguard project at that point was an unmitigated dissaster and needed serious help to turn the project around. That is why microsoft ditched it.
Soes solution was to hand a pile of money to sigil and let sigil march down the same path it had always been.
This is a classic example of throwing good money after bad. Intentional or not, there is just no way a company makes that type of investment and expects success to spontaniously happen.
Soe invested very little into vanguard and they litteraly store the game, the developers, the land and all the assest for a song when Sigil imploded. On top of that it cost them the loss of almost none of their EQ/EQ2 playerbase to another company and soe looks like heroes for "saving" vanguard.
I have long said the soe stood to make more from a failed vanguard than it did a successful one.
What it looked like to us outsiders might not be exactly what transpired. Perhaps SoE did try to change the way Sigil was run yet failed because of numerous reasons? In any event, we do not have all the information here so all we can do is speculate.
I don't buy the whole, SoE bought it just so they could sink it argument. All they would have to do was do nothing when Microsoft ditched them (which was in hindsight a smart decision by good old MSFT). Vanguard never gets released, and SoE doesn't have to pay anything for it. If Sigil and it's "assets" were in such a bad shape nobody else would've picked them up either. There is no doubt that the whole Vanguard project was mismanaged, on all sides most likely. I am sure Microsoft, Sigil and SoE is to blame for this fiasco but in the end I think it comes down to bad business decisions all around, bad project/business management, and a bit of favouritism (would SoE really have taken on Vanguard without a prior relationship?)
When almost every account from sigil employees and SOE says that SOE was hands off on the company, I think it is safe to believe them about it.
Soe didn't buy or invest in sigil to sink it. All they did was support it for a short while and let sigil continue what they were doing, which was failing. They didn't have to lift a single finger for that to happen and that is pretty much exactly what soe did, nothing. The cost to get into a contract with sigil was cheap, the benefits huge, the resources gained valuable and over the course of the last 3 years it easily payed for iteself. Looking at what soe gained in the deal would it be worth taking even the slightest change that another company funds vanguard to completion? Keep in mind Brad/Jeff are the guys that built soes flagship product that was funding almost all of their companies future projects.
Seeing how little soe did and how much they benefited from the failure of the game, I just don't see much compelling information that even suggests soe expected vanguard to be successful.
Regardless who is at fault this game proved that we shouldn't save it at launch. And the 1% of people who think Vanguard needs to be saved sorry the other 99% of us want it dead so you stop spamming the forums to save this pile. Let it go its ok no one will blame you.
If people enjoy it let them enjoy it.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
Your wrong....Vanguard players have no problem with the fact that it's a niche game. Most actually like that. They don't want Vanguard to go mainstream either. SOE did....for a time...and ruined most of the "nicheness" about he game. That pissed alot of players off and led to the big mass exodus of most players who stuck around after launch.
All Vanguard players want is assurance from SOE that they will continue to run the game, and they want a real dev team that's committed to the game and the community.
They aren't asking for much really.
they are in the process of merging down to 1 server. supposedly happening this month or next some time.
They are asking for alot for a game that has so little appeal to a larger audience. why should SOE invest in development of a game that has shown no growth/retention in the last few years?
we cant save it. its a 3 year old dead horse. that had its beating from the community and soe.
nothing to save and its a shame- cuse it is one of the better mmo´s.
That's a very valid point...one that I'm sure SOE agrees with...proven by their lack of develpmental support.
On he flip side, I think many, or some, would come back to the game if given those things I mentioned. Maybe not enough to save the game though.
Some might say that when SOE first purchased the game, they did put a dev team in place, but the game continued to falter, which led to the team getting ripped apart.
Yeh...kinda. When SOE took over the game the dev team got rid of the boat travel at docks, got rid of all faction, got rid of the armor/weapon spec system (can't remember the name), made everything BOE and BOP, and removed character customization for several months. They then added fast travel, silly racial mounts, and added the Trial of the Isle instead of improving the racial starting areas. All this was done to bring in "the masses". All it did was anger and allienate the small and dedicated fan base that was still there.
Now, most of those fans are long gone.
SOE should have catered to those that were still there. I believe Vanguard would have a larger player base today if they would have done that...instead they went fishing for the some of the WoW crowd. What a success that turned out to be.
According to the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes :
Myth: Sigil alone was responsible for the shoddy development of Vanguard.
Reality: "Although SOE was responsible chiefly for marketing, publication, distribution, subscription services and maintenance of game servers, some of SOE's game designers and artists did participate directly in Vanguard's development."
Myth: SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with the early release of a broken and incomplete product.
Reality: "Had I had the financial resources, ability to place the product later, etc. I would have given us about 3 more months to get more polish in, more high level content in, and to distance ourselves from the WoW expansion." (Sigil CEO)
From reading this information, it seems to me that SOE worked directly on this busted piece of garbage, pushed it live before it was ready, and then bought Sigil out after the game fell flat on its face.
SOE was not even involved with Sigil until about 9 months before release.
SOE was not a part of the development of Vanguard.
Edited to add the links....notice the dates. First one is the partnership, second is the buyout.
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/22202-soe-publish-vanguard.html
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13956
F2P is the only way to save Vanguard.
Vanguard doesn't have the reputation like WoW to charge money for people to pay it.
SOE will never go F2P.
How about $7.99 a month. I'd go back for that.
Things you fail to mention ...
Sigils COE was Brad Mcquad who squadered several years, and several million dollars away (50 million?) before he went to MS to further fund his game. MS eventually got tired of throwing good money after bad and cut off the cash cow. At this point Vanguard and sigil would have died still born if SOE had not stepped in and given the imcompetant developer yet more time, money and resourse to try and get the game live and polished. SOE eventualy (like MS) had to tell Bradto get his shit together and launch which as we all can see today he wasn't able to. Had any company given Brad a blank check he's probably still be leeching a existance yet to today with Vanguard in a unfinished state. Oh wait he still is as he had no problem it seems with having most of Sigil employees pink slipped in the parking lot while he was off accepting a deal as advisor for Vanguard with SOE.
Seems to me If you wanted to place blame you could toss some at Brad for wasting 50 million dollars, or at MS for not being willing lose to even more millions on this turkey then they did., but in the end Yes we should blame SOE because if they hadn't stepped in Vanguard never would have launched, and We wouldn't have wasted our money trying this turkey (in some peoples cases multiple times) and having threads like these.
Has SOE done ftp on any game? None I can recall.My sence is they care so little about VG they don't even want to breathe life into the game with FTP. Myself...I would start playing the moment if was free.
Why has almost no-one recognized my point ....let me say it again ?
VANGUARD DOESN'T NEED SAVING ...THEY ARE MERGING THE SERVERS
Its like the series Flash Forward where people find out they actually aren't going to die and they have a future ...its awesome .Can someone try to be at least a little happy with this ?
There are only four(?) servers left so US PvE and PvP will merge, EU PvE and PvP will merge. Is that what you are saying?
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=53481
they are going to merge ALL servers US and EU into 1 server.
F2p is the only solution imo ......
DDO didn't have that great of a reputation as well, but it managed with the sudden spike of ads and the fact that a P2P quality game was going f2p... well, it was new, then.
It's not impossible, if Sony was willing to sacrifice the money in developing the f2p model (which I doubt), and the ads (which I doubt as well), and maybe even reviving servers if the population does indeed, somehow, spike (which I doubt x3), maybe then they will have some kind of game rolling. Right now? this game is as stagnant as... a... couch potato that is reaching for the job column in vain hope of getting their ass outta the seat.
Technical issues aside, Vanguard was the last game that I truly enjoyed the world as a whole. All other games since have felt incomplete to me. Kind of funny...
I doubt I will trust SOE with any other game. I was burned by SWG with the best of them. I stood by Vanguard for as long as I could, and sometimes I am drawn back because I get sick of playing what's available today.
If SOE does not wish to support Vanguard, then I agree they should look at their pricing. F2P doesn't make me too happy, but if it meant Vanguard could live longer, then so be it.
Umm.. perhaps because merging servers isn't "saving" the game?
Merging servers is only going to be a temporary solution to any issue and even then it doesn't fix most of the games issues. There is a reason why 3 full servers worth of people left the game and they are reducing down to one server. That is not going to increase resources to develop the game.
Mergers in the past didn't help the game avoid these mergers, so not sure what you think will be resolved from another round of mergers.
Oh by the way, eve has 1 server, but over 300,000 subscribers. Vanguard has 1 server, but I doubt it has more than 5,000 subscribers.
To give you credit, merging servers is the right thing to do for the health of the game (maybe way to late), but it isn't something to cheer about. That is like asking someone why someone who just got diagnosed with 6 months to live isn't happy they just got a slice of cake.
There will always be those that want to save the Lame Horse. The Horse will never be a work-horse, accomplished or competitor in it's field, and Vanguard hasn't been for a very long time and never will be.
The server merge should have been done 3-years ago, but now that it is finally, lets just let the kids ride this nag slowly in a big circle around the ring. It's not such a big deal.
Hahaha F2P isn't going to save this game. It will only just delay the inevatible. There's reasons not to come back to Vanguard and the 15 dollar Sub Tag isn't whats stopping people from coming to this game. Its the reputation and launch flop of epic proportions. If 15 sub fee was all that was stopping gamers from playing this game it would have a considerable population growth after the free trial launched. Yet all it has is a crap ton of free toons that are just on the isle and nobody in the actual game. Its going to 1 server because paying to keep 4 non populated servers is more expensive then just keeping 1 non populated server. This game is over. 99% of us MMOers get that this game is dead the other 1% need to catch up. Stop wasting your money on this game your toons will be getting deleted shortly soon.
Vanguard remains one of the few games I haven't given a solid try. Not that I don't want to, it's just that their trial keeps asking for a credit card and that makes me nervous. We're talking about SOE, here...
I really do hope, for the sake of its small but loyal player base, that something happens to turn it around. Like many MMO's but even moreso, IMO, this games weakness is its lack of accessibility. Like I said, even the free trial deters some of us might-be subscribers, and few who can't try, will buy into a game that's teetering on the brink like this one.
I'm pretty sure you can try the game without a credit card. Just make a new station account if your current one is giving you problems with a credit card request.
The Isale of dawn trial is free.
havent read all the thoughs, but VG should just fade away, I played it for 2 months in march and april 2010, and thought wow how is this game not bigger then this. Then I hit 25 and the newness wore off and realized hey there is ABSOLUTELY no character development. No talent trees, no way to customize your char. With a good AA system or talent tree this game had a lot of potential. RIFT will do what VG failed to do.
Vanguard joins Horizons, AC2 and Shadowbane as games that all had tremendous potential but couldnt follow thru with what was needed
if SOE wanna to give up VG,plz make the game open source,may been someone can keep the service moving.living is everthing for hardcore
My point exactly. If players are going to be responsible for marketting and development, the game should be open-source, not pay-to-play. Why pay SOE if the players do all the work for themselves?
Concering other comments about Sigil/SOE, I don't deny Sigil made mistakes; Brad lists a bunch of them pubilcly. At the same time, some try to say that SOE had nothing to do with the disaster. I dispute that. According to sources referenced in the wiki, SOE was directly involved in development; and SOE set the release date regardless of the state of the game, and how it coincided with the WoW expansion.
The development was shoddy or incomplete; Sigil and SOE were both involved. The release was ill-timed; it seems that this was SOE's decision.
Silius, aka Salem Grant, killed Vanguard long, long ago. Killed it dead.
If VG went opened source, dedicated players would polish it up in no time. The guys who do mods to Fo3 alone in one year did one hundred times the new content you got in Vangaurd since launch.
Its just not a viable option. Remember they are licensing the engine that is used in Vanguard, that comes with its own set of restrictions. Furthermore, mmorpgs cannot have community generated content at this point, its been thrown around by many of the top mmo companies and they havent found a viable and safe solution just yet.
Also to those saying f2p is the solution. No its not. I think these people just want to play the game for free and then leave it just as fast. The entire game would have to be redesigned with a cash shop in mind, and that wouldnt work out too well.
The only viable solution at this point is for Sony to pump money into the project and have a re-release in the form of an expansion. The engine was originally intended to be upgraded to the unreal 3 engine when the time came. Well nows that time. If they chose to go this rout, it would be brilliant marketing to allow the game to be free until the expansion is released, allowing for a player base to form with no strings attached.
Actually Free Realms is not a free to play game anymore. It was when it was released, but soe changed it to a subscription only model with cash shop. You can still try any character up to level 4, but beyond that is a subscription fee.
If anything, that shows that soe really doesn't understand the free to play market all that well. Considering vanguard is designed on the subscription model it would take some serious effort to retool the game to be successful as a cash shop free to play game. It took Turbine somewhere around 9 months to convert DDO and who knows how long to convert LOTRO.
Free to play is really the only option for VG, but considering the effort and understanding to make that happen I doubt it is possible and will never happen.
Well tried the game.. it just isn't fun... To save it ? Possibly... take a page from DDO... change it to F2P and add an item mall... that seems to be the trick now-a-days in resurrecting near dead games. Hell the koreans/japanese developers pioneered that trick... send their dead games to the US audience... add an item mall.... taa-daaa.. an instant resurrection and hit. The key word now seems to be..casual mmo... sure I've been hardcore before (1996-2007) on EQ and WoW... but I find that I no longer have the inclination and time to sit thru 8-12 hour playing sessions. I simply got old.
I hear you but if you consider that the majority of complaints are around the fact the game has no population then this go's a long way to addressing the issue ?
It needs selling to another mmo developer and re-naming!
I asked someone just an hour ago if he'd ever played vangaurd, and his response was "I heard lots of bad things about that"
So even now, years later people still are under the mistaken impression that its STILL bad. Its a word assocaiation, people now associate this word with bad. So it needs renaming!.. nothing else!
Vanguard having low population is the result of the games problems, not the cause. There was a time when the servers were full and there were so many people playing that vanguard needed 4 servers to properly host all the players.
All I am saying is that putting more people on the same server is not addressing the issues of why people are leaving. Seeing that the game is closing 75% of the server resources it is pretty safe to assume that at least 75% of the playerbase has gone too.
Unless soe initiates some sort of revival, there is not going to be one. Writing letters, petitions and viral videos didn't work for the other station pass games and it certainly isn't going to work for the red headed step child of soe. If soe stays follows suit on what they did in other mmos, the next step if for vanguard to stop getting updates (or seriously small/far apart ones), then just go for a time without any real developer at all and then shutdown. Much of this depends on when soe adds new games to the station pass.
Either way, soe didn't spend enough to make this game work when there were 4 servers worth of players paying the bills and I highly doubt they are going to pay attention to a game with less than 1 servers worth of people paying money.
I just cant see soe puting in any more money into this. I give it another 6 month max before they actually get to shutdown. But then I said that about swg. However SWG still is running 8 servers compared to the now fixing to be one server for vangaurd. I wonder what all the pvp players are thinking since that servers going away too.
It would take a change in managment thought processes, to see anything happen now. I know they are looking at the spreadsheet numbers and going, well this is dead.
So I expect this vangaurd to go the way of matrix, it is just a matter of time. Unless another studio can buy it out that being the last hope.
As I understand it, "all the pvp players" might be only as many people as you can count on your fingers and toes. I know that for PvP gaming I never considered Vanguard as a viable option, games like WAR or AoC do that so much better (flawed as they are).
Yeah who knows, Vanguard will be around as long as it is. As far as it going to another host/developer or whatever....I don't know if it'd be cheaper to take the existing world of Telon and then revitalize it, or just take the concepts of positive elements of Vanguard and make an entirely new game? I'm not familiar with all the costs of developing or advancing a game.
In either case, it's clear that SOE has no interest of doing anything with it except decreasing how much it costs them to keep it running (server merge). I only hope--for those of us still playing Vanguard--that they're content leaving it on a single-server/minimal-staff basis for longer than you say. Games can be "dead" and stay online for years (look at your example of SWG).
I was join this game, I think this game is like as the Everquest, so I like it. Because they have freedom rule, and not easy to play.
What they need is more people. If you guys start giving them your money, they can pay moe programmers to fix the bugs and to add new content.
free to play all the way, they could incorprate an item shop, BUT nothing like korean mmos where you could just buy your way to greatness.
The best game when you can find a group, the worst when you"re alone.
VG is now one of the worst mmo in the market because it's a nightmare to play alone.
Tried to play VG many and many times because "it's my game" but had to stop and cancel account many and many times: unplayable alone.
I'm sad to see great games dying (VG, DAOC) and games for kids everywhere (wow, swtor aion etc)
MMOS are no more for adults now (or we' ll have to play Eve, one of the last real mmos )
After years of hardcore WoW and other stops and starts with other mmorpgs, I stumbled across Vanguard on this site due to its high hype ranking. I played the Isle to level 10 and subbed. I play it just as religiously as I have any other online game ...(everyday for at least 4 hours - minimum). There is NOTHING more wrong about Vanguard than is wrong with WoW, AION, AoC, Guild Wars, Atlantica, Runes of Magic, DD(f2p), LOTR, or ANY other MMORPG that I've plunked down my hard earned money or time to play. I was at beta and launch for AoC, AION, RoM, and you couldn't PAY me to play either one today. Bugs, spammers, botters, haters, low maturity level and lameness all play a part. What I am reading mostly in this thread is just a bunch of pissed off subbers who got shafted at launch and want the game dead. Without the same resentments, I have been really enjoying Vanguard - however, I can understand the loathing.
I can always get a group, have never crashed or experienced any other glitches except for 1 with a low level quest. Hell, I even had a GM help me retrieve my tombstone and give me a lesson in escrow and the altars...personally. No gold spam either - something AION could learn from.
Everyday I play I read chat generated by returnees who need help remembering how to play...so people are returning. I realize the servers are being consolidated and the PvP server is being deleted - but there are PLENTY of other games for the PVPers and from what I understand this deletion affects a total of 10 subbers. Based on the hate though, I suspect VG is destined for death...and if not in the cards, it will be once SWtOR releases.
Stand alone and based on my rather objective opinion - I think it's a pretty decent game.
I just DLd the trial last week (after I found the download link - tried opera, chrome, FF and IE was the only browser which loaded to webpage correctly and showed the DL link).
Then I saw the awful ping and 6 people online on the PvP server Halgardsomething. It saddens me to see one of the most fun MMORPGs in this state.
I played vanguard at launch and i gotta say i had major major problems with it...not only would the game crash constantly and at the worst possilbe times in combat etc...but the zoning glitchs were just horrid running accross the world and having a mob trained on your for like what seemed like 30 miles of running and never giving up was just NUTZ to say the least...and glitch crash at zone boundary crossings was just to much for me....
i typically give all games a 3 month cycle to see how they shake out..but vanguard for me was so bad...after the month free sub ..i bailed....
i am willing to give it another chance...but i don't think i would pay SOE for my time invested in it so if they offered a f2p option i'd give it a shot to see if it was worth my time again but theres NO WAY IN HELL i'd give them money to try this game out again..i have burned before by SOE in the NGE and i'm not willing to part with my funds so easily anymore for them to just blow changes thru on a whim....SOE HAS TO EARN MY TRUST....and for that...vanguard would have to be f2p or at least a good decent trial to see if its woth my time to...well give it that time..first...
They do offer a free trial atm.
SOE doesn't want to save this game, so this whole post is a mute point.
Indeed, I do think SoE just wishes VG would go away, its revenue limps along and there are no gaming or buisness buzz words it can be linked to. In SoE's eyes it is not the future and that means a lingering death sentance which is a real shame.
I've always wanted to try Vanguard and if they ever go f2p, I certainly will. Otherwise, they will not be recieving my dollar, or fifteen as it were.
This is an assumption, because honestly there is no proof that soe wouldn't just pocket the extra money or invest it into one of their new games that might actually have a future.
All games need revenue, but they also need a developer that is committed to the success. At some point the developer has to step up and convince players that they are willing to go the distance with their product and stand behind it. Then and only then can players have faith that their subscription dollars might be used to better the game.
Keep in mind that other soe games that received extra revenue from cash shops, cash for item sales and virtual card games have not seen an increase in development. They have actually seen a decrease in development cycles.
Perhaps you don't understand the feeling many people have for the game, because you are not familiar with what has happened over the last few years and how the game has progressed. Maybe your newness to the game makes it look like everything is fine, but you have not witnessed the changes, the promises, the attitudes or any number of other things that other people have witnessed.
To come to the party so late and then make blanket statements about people only hating the game because of the launch is just plain wrong.
Good to hear you are enjoying the game today though.
I purchased Vanguard at launch and was extremely displeased with the state of the game. I played for nearly 3 months and then unsubed. Over the next year and a half I subbed and unsubbed twice more until my character hit the level cap. After I did that there wasn't much else to do in the world. The craftable boats still weren't fully implemented into the game (there were currently only 2 levels), there were no high level dungeons in the game yet (APW wasn't out yet), flying mounts were still a new thing and you had to rent them. I could keep listing things but there isn't reason.
Now, I haven't played Vanguard for around two years but people in my gaming community stil tell me how much they are enjoying the game. I would love to try the game out once more to see how much it has really changed, but I have already resubbed my account so many times and I am not willing to pay another $15 to SOE just to be let down. I would like to see SOE give a free month to players. I have received invites back to other games before that I had previously belonged to and some I have even resubed to after trying their new features or game fixes. Ok, maybe a month is too much free time to give to players but what about a free weekend for returning players, anything would be nice just so I can login and try.
They may not kill the game any time soon. After all SOE has station pass which lets you play their gaggle of MMO's for a flat monthly rate. They have to have SOMETHING other then EQ2 on the list. If the development team (or part time developer/janitor) is kept small and they have enough subs they may keep it just to have some games for the Station Pass pricing.
If you have played on Xeth Server you would have had a chance to participate in Player (Guild) run events. We have had lots of Newbie Nights to help out new players on the mainlands (we have players who help when they can on the Isle), Crafting/Diplo Classes in the past and Xeth Faires (6 so far).
I see alot of people posting that they won't come try out or come back to Vanguard until the population is up. So if everyone feels that way the population will always be lower as most of you who say that would have to come try or play it for awhile to get it up or lots of new players who just found it would have to come.
Some day I will try this or that means you are not willing to come try the best MMO game out there. So quit playing that other boring game and play what all the ones who decided it was worth while population low or not.
I like your article, it's well-written.
That said, I have to offer up a resounding NO. I payed for the full game when it was new, and subscriptions. I tried to help out the community but I just couldn't stand it.
SOE is the biggest failure to defile God's green Earth. I consider them my personal enemy and as such, no member of my gaming community or real life family will ever purchase another game with the SOE brand on it.
SOE, if any of your employees are reading this, you are the sorriest bunch of pathetic corporate thieves I've ever encountered. If we arrest the CEO of Enron for embezzlement, why can't we arrest the CEO and leading employees of SOE?
Tip: Try STO before saying that, Cryptic is a lot worse. SOE at least had a hit game once with EQ.
And the crappy state of VG was really Sigils fault.
Still, SOE should either have waited with the release until the game actually was fixed or not released it as a P2P game at all. It would have done better as a F2P game if they wanted to release it in the bad shape it was.
Vanguard could be purchased by another company, much like Horizons (Istaria) was. That might save it.
Other than that, maybe Vanguard's original devs could return and try to spread publicity and hold game conventions, Vanguard Game conventions.
Funny thing is that SOE was only formed after and as a result of the success of EQ. SOE was formed to exploit the possibilities of the online mmo market and shortly after bought/chased off all the original talent that made the cornerstone of their business.
In an even stranger relationship, Cryptic is run a hand maiden of John Smedleys. John Needham was a long time SOE VP and just looking at his areas of oversite at SOE it is easy to see why Crypitc is turning into the 3rd rate mmo developer it is.
I played Vanguard Since Beta and Can say that it really wasn't ready to be released. All of us that were in beta told Sigil this and so yes it is there fault.... BUT, Sony has a rep with ruining games (SWG and Matrix) I loved SWG and played it for years then Sony got it and the game failed just like Matrix and now just like Vanguard. The game is dying out, Let it go peacefully.... Keeping it alive is only causing it more pain. Sony, just like Sigil, doesn't care about the game..... they only bought it to make money for the EQ games and those that are still paying for Vanguard are just giving Sony fuel for that.
I loved Vanguard when I played it, but it has one problem that will never be fixable...
It's owned by SOE. Never again will I ever play and/or pay for a SOE product.
Uhmmm.. so I'd have to spend MY time and MY money to save a game that SOE is not wanting to save, so THEY make more money after they DECIDED to stop supporting it???
Hell no. I loved Vanguard, but not going to help SOE in any way.
If I could know that 60-90% of the $ recieved from player generated advertising would go towards improving Vanguard, like more dev, more content, less bugs etc etc.... I would.
But as I see SOE from a corporate perspective, they will just take the added income from "the players promo effort" into their budget to support everything but Vanguard. No new dev's will be added etc etc
So can "we the players" save Vanguard. NO
Well if you had about 40 to 100 million I am sure soe might sell it out. Then you got to have another 50 million to hire the original devs back, personell and what not.
so unless you got some serious cash at hand then No I dont think anybody can save this game.
Exactly...
And unless Vanguard goes F2P I'm done with it once-and-for-all...It's a Game with awesome potential that was mishandled so bad from the get-go there's really no saving it now under a normal Subscription Payment Plan...And I don't even want to hear about the Station Pass cause Vanguard, SWG and EQII are all Games that their best Sub numbers are WAY back in the rear view mirror...
very true.... and Why should "WE" as the players keeps a game alive when, as so stated, the company doesn't care about it. Turn it into a F2P and the numbers will come back. I sit here and see how well EQ and EQ2 are doing and hear about how SOE is making an EQ3 and it pisses me off because i see where my money is going. Vanguard had beautiful graphics and character creation and YES Sony could do so much more with it.
Why would you do that? I mean hire the morons who were coding the game to begin with??? Those numb nuts couldnt code a game if their life depended on it. Why you think SoE fired them and Microsoft said See ya later well just take the loss on finaces they already provided.
That's how this whole deal sounded to me also. Smells badly like something SOE would love to see happen: have the players do all the work and marketting, while SOE takes their money lol. Where did this whole concept originate anyways? Hmm.
I was being sarcastic after all a lot of these folks are calling for the original devs. When they too also messed up the game.
The fact is the game has never had any luck. Soe bailed them out put them on the back burner. If they got f2p that might fix it however I really bet that would not theres to much bad publicity for the game.
Took the words right out of my mouth...
Save this game? The word hopeless doesn't even come close to describing this game. I played this at release and like most people had high hopes for an old school EQ type game. The truth is sony got this game for nothing and released this turd to rip off fans of the game and its designers. They never put any effort into it and they won't start now. Sony is where games go to die. This company has never done anything but fail when it comes to MMO's. They ruined EQ years ago and failed at everything since. I won't even look at a game made or published by SOE because like most big companys they only care about short term profit and the hell with the customers or making a quality game. Screw SOE and their whole line up of garbage MMO's they all can rest in pieces.
Believe it or not the original developers, who made a deal with MS for Vanguard, were ex-EQ development team. Reality is that SOE mainly sorted out the financial mess allowing the game to release and it sold maybe as high as 300 K copies a few years back, but technical problems mainly due to it's messy development then killed the initial interest till nobody played the game pretty much...it wasn't really playable at launch. I think SOE actually did a good job fixing the game to a point where player numbers rise to a point where press articles like this one come up. However, truth is Vanguard is a failed game and in terms of adult fantasy mmorpg SOE should really just cut the life support on some games and get on with EQ3.The best classes saw in a mmo, great features: diplomacy and a great craft, open world, great music. But... unfinished and has no players. Each time I took a sub I had to stop playing vg 10 days after because I was alone in this huge world.
As Vg is unplayable alone, nobody can play VG anymore.
So we can let VG die now. SWTOR, GW2 and other new mmos are going to kill VG. We can't save VG it's too late.
Hi Keilana, if you guys do want to try out VG TASC is a great guild, me and my best friend tried it for 2 months, and Keilana and Tasc were very helpful. Unfortunately for me the lack of Character developement left me too much to be desired.
Zynder, Drewid, Meroveus, Kshanti
After having just come back to the game after 2 years, im shocked by how polished it is now. On the exact same hardware its running about three times as smooth, and with the recent server merges it is real easy to find groups. Kicking myself that i was playing WoW for those 2 years now instead of this game. I definitely recommend retrying VG or giving it a shot for the first time now, it wont dissapoint.
Can we save Vanguard? NO, we can't. End of story.
Lol the sad thing is soe is forcing f2P on us in EQ@ and you guys been screaming for it in vanguard.
That tells me one thing, not even soe thinks vanguard stands a snowballs chance in he@@. So yes give it a few more months and its gone.
I wish we could send you smokejumper and maybe he would take you guys f2p since hes so hard up on taking us that route in eq2.
Oh well I think soe is about to make some very bad moves that is going to further taint their name and chase players off in droves even more.
SOE just wants to milk the cow. All the people playing now are the cow. Can't you see it? I love Vanguard but they won't ever get another buck from me unless they start developing again.
Vanguard is a beautiful world, includes a wonderful level of race choice, complex, fascinating class selection and granular though lacking character development. It had amazing gameplay intentions. The combat felt good, graphically it has not aged as well and the animation feedback looks a little loose.
Crafting, Adventuring and Diplomacy - perhaps if they had a large developer staff and publisher love level of something like Blizzard or BioWare (instead of git 'er done, it's done when it is. These may have been monster sucesses in the MMO world.
It was incomplete and left that way. I don't know the real reasons for development problems - rumors of wasted time/resources and bad publisher issues.
3 years post launch and not even a minor "official" expansion. Not sure if anything is left to save. The shell of a tired old turtle. I am glad there are still folks working on it daily, but it must be a bittersweet experience for them. I think maybe it is for the players too.
The only thing that could save it would be to make it free to play. However considering about 500 people play it during prime time now, free to play would increase that to what? 1000? 1500?
This game was DOA sadly. It's a shame because it has a diplomacy system and a great crafting system. I would have loved to play the game and built my own home from scratch, but I don't think the game will survive 2011 so I don't see the point on starting one now...
Take a look
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-Vanguard-SOH/167228963307833
Ha Ha Ha ha, omg is that a joke. Only 12 people. Just 12 and only 12, now thats funny. so much for the 500 at prime time, with facebook going for it you should have more than 12.
Omg rolling on the floor and having a good laugh, you really expect SOE to pay atention to 12 folks wanting change.
Ha Ha ha. you got to do better than that epic fail.
Sorry.
It was just started yesterday. Why is it a joke? Do you plan to contribute to the cause or no? And why are you sorry? You didn't offend me in the least. At least I know people are looking.
Maybee you will get lucky who knows. All I know was I beta tested Vangaurd it would have been a great game if it was not totaly ignored.
At this point the only way to save vangaurd really is to get soe to sell it to somebody else. As long as soe has it they are going to let it rot.
I got to say i started one of those things back when we got the nge we had thousands of folks sign up, the only thing that accored was folks who wanted a refund of mustifar got it.
Im sorry to say that as long as soe is hadling vangaurd its going nowhere quick.
I understand what your saying and it sucks for those who stuck with game, and really it is sad that the game has lost attention. All the site really is trying to do is get supporters maybe it will fail but who knows maybe it won't. Thanks for the quick reply.
Soe is only going to listen to one thing and one thing only: Cash.
Not to be mean, but it is time to just enjoy vanguard for what it is. Making a facebook page isn't going to motivate soe in the slightest. It has been 4 years. If they wanted to fix the game, they would have by now.
Vanguard was a fantastic game, the gameplay was awesome, ok it had bugs we all know it did, but SOE did kill it, as the months progressed you could feel the unhappiness in players,
it got worse and worse, taking out key devs and putting in self loving ones, so many flaws,
VG could have been such a huge hit, it really is a shame, beautiful game that was a joy to log into, but not for a long time, even the dev had Play EQ on his msn status, that just says it all.
They never wanted vg to live, what a shame and what a waste, it got worse for me when they put in the new content and then just left it at that, the bugs were never looked at before I quit,
and to be honest their attitude was less than caring. It could come back but it will not as SOE do not love it like the players loved it........ shame on them really,
they had their hands on something that would have grown and stayed, their favouritism for the large guilds stuck out like a neon sign,
depressing many small guilds who had to walk slowly in their footsteps, just disheartening player after player, as they progressed the smaller guilds suffered because their opinion mattered more.
That is not right in any way shape or form, it just makes the rest resentful and having a constant struggle, while those large ones complained about ease and were strutting around in their full
blown apw armour so the devs tweaked and tweaked small guilds out of the picture, there has to be a continuous balance not just a one sided story.
Banning people who were talking honestly and openly on the forum, banning them for asking what they saw as difficult questions, ban instead of reply, I even had one msn me and ask
Me to tell another player in our guild to basically stop upsetting him, he had never been spoken to like that, well when you kill something people love they react bad, as a person in the
front line you have to face the flack, if those posts were rude and full of language, I would have agreed, but the questions were viable.
They took away wonderful on ground gm.'s and replaced them with no feeling types, they took the fun out of almost everything, now they are re-cycling with no real dev team there is little chance of anything.
I wish it would come back, but wishes like that do not come true not if the owner has no regard for what is a beautiful environment to play in.
RIP vg I really did love playing you.
I agree. It's a shame but sony really is very mercenary about their games. So is NC for that matter.
Their games are products, if they don't do well then they are on to their next product.
Then you have game companies like CCP who have a game and are dedicated to that game.
Imagine if Sony applied themsevles to Vanguard that way. Or Matrix for that matter.
As much as i agree, also remember that CCP only has one game for now. They are working on World Of Darkness and maybe more projects in future. In the end of the day its business for all companies alike. Who knows once CCP is manging 4+ MMOS they will treat them in same manner.