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Vanguard Correspondent - Examining Vanguard PvP
MMORPG.com Vanguard Correspondent Jei Anderson pens this article about his experiences with the PvP system (or lack thereof) in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
In my experience with other games, PvP has always been a valuable asset. It gives a high-level player a fun, engaging, alternative to raiding; it oftentimes offers rewards that are just as good as PvE end-game rewards, but most importantly, in my opinion, is that PvP gives the reason to get end-game gear, weapons, and trinkets, definition. Not everyone likes to PvP and not everyone is good at it, but one thing that can be agreed on about PvP is that it separates the novices of any given class from those that really understand their function.
A player character is very different from an NPC because given time, enough wipes on any boss will reveal the keys to defeating it. This is how boss guides are written. However, a good PvPer can kill you 20 different times and you might never figure out how to beat them because a human can be unpredictable. This fact forces anyone who wishes to succeed in PvP to become unpredictable themselves, which means that they have to understand the strengths, weaknesses, and limitations of their class fully. This in turn makes the player a better *insert class title* when they decide to PvE and when they PvE and get those "phat lewtz", PvP gives them a place to use them. Done correctly, PvE and PvP are an interdependent, happy, couple of any game.
;)
I decided to make a Kojani blood mage because it seems that in PvP, healers usually have the best chance of survival. Having played World of Warcraft for three years, I was expecting for some bored, stealthed, rogue to one-shot back-stab me as soon as I logged on (later I found out this was possibly because you can not kill a player until s/he is at least level 7). To my surprise, not only did I survive my first few seconds of life as a PvPer, but there was not a single other soul in Shang Village. I had not seen an empty starting area in four months. There are always new toons in the starting areas of Seradon, now that the game is getting more positive publicity and players that tried and did not like Age of Conan have computers that can run the game. I continued doing the starting quests until I got in-range of Tanvu, thinking that surely people would be talking in general chat, but alas, there were none.
Seeing that this wasn't really giving me the results that I had hoped for, I went to a reliable source; the Vanguard, Sartok forums. This game has the most mature, helpful, and intelligent community I have ever had the pleasure of playing with, the only community matching being City of Heroes/Villains'. So knowing that my forum frequenters would come through, I posted a topic asking the members of the server to tell me what they think of the PvP system, what they like/dislike; the do's and don'ts; the rewards, etc. To my dismay, I read what I suspected beforehand, but hoped wasn't true… Creeper of Sartok server summed up what everyone else was posting the best, I think, when he wrote, "PvP? What pvp?" The Vanguard PvP system is broken. It seems that since Vanguard is primarily a PvE game, PvP is not really considered when revamping classes and therefore whichever class was the last revamp project is now the new "god" of PvP. In addition to this, there are no rewards for PvPing outside of gaining Infamy (reputation based on number of kills). There are no level caps on player killing, a level 50 character is welcome to camp any questing area and kill every newbie in sight. There are not any organized battlegrounds where one faction or team can fight others…so then why PvP at all in Vanguard?
Well, there is the drama; the politics of it all. Being on a free-for-all, kill or be killed for no particular reason server gives new meaning to the word "guild". On this server, it is of the utmost importance to have people watching your back. Imagine this, you finally find a group to do Trengal Keep after 45 minutes of searching. The quests are getting completed, everything is going well, and then all of the sudden you find yourself kicked out of the group, and dead in 5 seconds, compliments of five other "lol-ing" would-be members. This is a very real possibility, and when that happens it's good to have strong bonds with your guild mates so that you can get some payback. Simply bearing any particular guild's name may cause others to fear you, loathe you, or possibly love you, depending on the guild's reputation on the server. The karma of what you do and who you kill reaches far beyond just having to watch your back for that person's level 50 main or guild seeking retribution.
;)
This issue also extends its reach to the economy of the server, and in here lies the crown jewel of Sartok server. On the PvE servers, if the prices on the market seem high, one might seek the aid of the trade channel to try and find someone to make the desired item for them at a more reasonable price. From what I have seen, the high level crafters in Vanguard tend to all know each other, as they actually do use their crafting channel to talk about their crafts. If you decide on a boring Friday evening when there is not a group in sight to be had, to go to where you know the newbies play, and gank the only one in the area every time s/he reaches their tombstone, you just may find yourself blacklisted in more ways than one.
There are no rewards, there are no structured battlefields, classes are imbalanced due to PvE revamps that do not take PvP into account, and as Rikoorakoo of Voyages of Vanguard stated on the forums, "…the devs have said that there are no immediate plans to do major reconstructive surgery on PvP's face." Is the system broken and in need of help? I would say, wholeheartedly yes. Does the system have potential to be a great system? Once again, I would say yes. Is it going to get better any time soon? Sadly, it would seem the answer to this is no.
If you are a player that is looking for the kind of polished PvP that games like World of Warcraft or Guild Wars offer, then Sartok is not your server. If you, however, are a hardcore pvper that wants a kill or be killed atmosphere with a strong, loyal, community of gamers, where your deeds in the game have meaning, then Sartok is where you belong. I'm sure the citizens will be happy to welcome you and test your mettle.
Thanks for taking the time to write about your experiences. I had no idea vanguard neglected the pvp aspect to that extent. Wow, this really "is" like looking at EQ's long lost brother as EQ1 was never designed as a pvp game either. But with that said, I do like the idea of how pvp can deter one from harming their reputation and the fact that there are no level restrictions.
I personally like no level restrictions when it comes to pvp, that is if you have a mature playerbase. Frankly, if you had some max level killing lowbies, you'd hope there'd be other max level players that'd stick up for them and kick the guys arse, but anyway, good read!
I don t like PVP.
I don t like to be chain camped at cimetary.
I don t like the fact than i MUST raise PVP faction to get gears to be more efficient in PVE. (Like WOW before BC).
I chose Vanguard because there is no pvp, no reward pvp, no event pvp, no quest pvp.
If Pvp get involve in PVE in vanguard i will just stop. Thanks god, there is still no pvp at the moment, exepte an empty server.
If Ppl like PVP i guess there is enough PVP game to be happy, please at least let that one without PVP ...
Fatebringer FTW!
Thanks for telling the truth and exposing Silius' dirty little secret about PVP in Vanguard.
That guy is a dead fish with a capital D.
I pity the people who stil play PVP in VG, seriously - The sad part is they probably feel all gratefull that after 3 months the tombstone bug finally got a reply. Sad, just sad.
Sartok is a server with 140 people on nightly. It's basically the same core group of players killing each other on their mains and twinked alts.
I appreciate the responses everyone. I understand that some don't like PvP. I am in no way trying to replace any PvE material, I simply want PvP to raise to the same level as the PvE content and then them both go forward. Anyhow, this is how it stands in my eyes, I don't think we will ever be a flourishing community until the PvP system is fixed.
I am / was really wanting to try this game , but if it is a seperate pvp server , Instead of a combined pvp/safe areas type setup - I don't know if it is really worth playing now .
The thing is, Simon, that the game is a wonderful game at its core. It has potential falling out of every pore. It is a game that one must have patience with, but still leaps and bounds better, even with its faults, than any of the other releases to date (IMO). Which means that if the bugs/missing content ever get resolved, this will be the game to play for life.
With such an attitude like that coming from a dev ( Im assuming Silius is a Dev) I don't blame you for quitting . There is nothing like ripping the cash away from them, to change the attitude of a a***hole dev. Well from a smart or wise dev anyway. Some of them never learn, the arrogant bas***ds.
I purchased Vanguard because of the continental pvp/factions that were in the roll out.These were eliminated and only FFA pvp was left. I hate FFA pvp.I love faction warfare.The company continues to ignore FACTION warfare...so I continue to ignore the game.
Same here
I joined Sartok VG server 2 months ago, hoping for kos factions & team pvp, but i soon realized that Silius & the dev team have destroyed these basic rulesets. Instead of building up content upon it. Dumb.
Now i find it harder & harder to look forward logging back into the game.
In my experience PvP has been a valuable asset to subscriber numbers and little else. So I understand that as someone who finds PvP to be pretty much a dull experience I'm very much in the minority. Which is probably also why I tend to find myself very much at home in Vanguard as it is filled with people just like me. The community, as the original article says, is one of the most helpful and friendly, there is. I don't believe for a moment that a PvP community can't be these things, but I do think that the cooperative PvE focus of the game encourages such a community.
Vanguard is, and has always been, a niche game. At release it was marketed as the 'true' successor of Everquest; a 'hardcore' game with death penalties, corpse runs, difficult travel and a system that encourages grouping over solo play. This hardcore stance has been very much softened since then but it's appeal is still that it is an next generation MMO with first generation play experience. A great part of that is that it is a PvE focused game.
One of the things that makes a good PvE game is well defined class roles. This is something that Vanguard does particularly well. Each and every one of the classes in Vanguard feels unique and brings something different to the group. PvP games bring with it the inevitable issues of class balancing. Yet, by balancing the classes to fight each other instead of with each other, the immediate danger is that uniqueness gets lost.
There is no shortage of PvP games out there. Vanguard isn't one of them and I think it would become lesser if it tried to become one. In trying to become a game of all things for all people in a bid for subscribes it would loose what identity it currently has. Let other games cater for those who wish to PvP, they already do it so much better. Instead let Vanguard strive to be the best at filling the niche it does; a cooperative group based PvE Game.
There is no secret about PvP in Vanguard, its atm not supported.
IMHO they should simply close the server and add, as someone suggested, a server with original ruleset.
And you can get the information that VG PvP is unsupported in a couple of minutes by clicking on the VG Forum on this site and reading some topics, or opening a thread. Dont think anyone will tell you that PvP in VG is great. Thats not official though.
I am / was really wanting to try this game , but if it is a seperate pvp server , Instead of a combined pvp/safe areas type setup - I don't know if it is really worth playing now .
You will find a small and dedicated playerbase on Sartok. If you like such a scenario give it a try, else check pvp based games out like WAR.
Nice article but I disagree about unpredictability. Most PVPers learn their i-win tactic (usually from forums and based on a cookie-cutter pvp-build) and blindly repeat that.
If you like FFA pvp then try AoC. Pretty soon the PVP there will have consequences due to the fugitive system and there will also be rewards. Even without this stuff the it's still fun having that element of danger, plus the servers are well populated.
If you like faction PVP then wait for WAR.
Yes Vanguard is not a PVP game ....its not ...
What the sky hasn't fallen ..the earth is still here ...amazing .
The reality is Vanguard is one of the best PVE games on the market .The majority of us couldn't care about the PVP aspect of an MMO .I disagree also with the Op's suggestion that PVP requires greater skill and is much more challenging than PVE .I have played MMO's that are suppose to be examples of great PVP achievement and was ganked by people 70 levels higher than me and killed crossing instances ...yes great skill that takes .In Vanguard once you reach level 50 and decide to tackle the boss monsters its takes weeks of planning ...and often your whole guild can die
Best thing that Sony can do is acknowledge that Vanguard isn't a PVP game or it is limited ...so that these types of reviews can stop as they detract from what the game is ...a brilliant and immersive PVE experience that offers an Oblivion type experience but in a MMO sense
Later :)
That is your reality - Viewed through rose colored spectacles.
It had Team and FFA servers at launch. It still has an an FFA server. Vangaurd IS a PVP. It just happens that it's a crappy PVP game because the Developers have ignored it for the past 11 months.
Using your logic, VG is not a game with diplomacy because they fired the one dev. who worked on it; and, VG is not a raiding game because after a year + there is only 1 raiding zone. It is also not a roleplay game because they sacked the one RP server.
Is that because the servers are so thinly populated so as to make a gamer think she is playing off-line and alone?
You just summed it up.
WAR seems to offer good PvP. If you need PvE different to VG try Ryzom.
The rest of the post doesnt make much sense.
I'm playing Ryzom now actually. Well, as of 4 days ago.
And you're right - It has faction based pvp, ffa and guild vs. guild. Plus, the pve/skill based world is dead hooker cool.
It is nice to be challenged and once more earn my skill, levels and titles in adventuring, crafting and harvesting vs. some other games who's first initials start Vanguard Saga of Heros.
The sad thing is, is that there WERE plans for PvP. Not a FFA PvP server that gets tacked on to any game. But REAL PvP on the regular servers. In an interview several months after release, one of the developers talked about the plans for PvP. Its just another tthing that was intended to be in the game, but it released to early, and yet another thing that got forgotten because there's no just enough developers to get to it fast enough.
For those who missed it, the plan was to implement mounted and ship combat (flying was even a possibility) and then allow guilds to wage wars against eachother. In the ocean between continents would be dozens of islands that guilds could take control of through force of arms and fight a territory war. A battleground was to be added, and an arena. But... like I said, this all fell by the wayside. Shame, because it would have added an extra level to the game.
I played Ryzom beta a long time ago and its a good game. Payed it a visit some days ago, doesnt seem to be changed much (the nice loading screen is gone sadly). In the beginning it has a pretty steep learning curve, later it gets repetitive. Its a bit different to other mmorpgs, so worth to look at.
Have fun!
Trueth, how are you playing Ryzom? I downloaded it, but when I loaded it up, I had a black screen. You have any idea about that?
Fate,
I had some major tech issues when I tried to start. I started this thread:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/196805
And Gilgameesh set me right. I never had a black screen, but I did have every other color. Follow the progession of my troubles and see how he told me to fix them - The final blue screen was fixed by disabling AGP testures in ryzom's config, just click 'no' when it asks you if you want more info. Just pay attention to Gilgameesh's comments, the others people didnt help.
I hope that helps. I'm just barely level 20 in all 4 spheres.
PS - You registered and got your key right?
I sent you a pm also, but your name is goofy, so I don't know if you got it.
I thought I would X post this, since it's a great reply by a VG player regarding PVP.
Some of you might think I hate VG; at this particular moment I do. But I'd go back if I could - Here is why I can't, though.
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=37915
"Bah stop getting upset at PvPers for not going to the Fan Faire. This is just skipping over the issue, misdirecting the attention to something that has absolutely nothing to do with the same 'ol questions why PvP has been ignored for the past year and half. Some of you people are just finding ways to somehow....find faults with PvP players as if we're the ones causing the devs to not pay attention to PvP.
Seriously, flip back to the first few pages, you noticed how Silius disappeared *again* after I posted a few questions that would've been great for him to answer? That's what we're talking about. Instead, people are here talking about how we would've gotten some answers if PvP players showed up at the fan faire, or suggesting that our attitudes is why they aren't paying attention to PvP. That's utter bs and you know it. Stop changing the subjects and dodging the real issues.
The real issues is that anytime when people ask real, solid questions about PvP on this forum, Silius disappears. He's the lead designer of Vanguard, no other designers or coders can touch anything without his consent. So if we can't get through to him to get his support, we are SOL. And so far, it sure looks that way, and nothing has changed, Fan Faire or not.
Ok and let's be honest, Silius was the crafting dev, and now he's the lead designer for VG. I can understand if he doesn't know anything about PvP, he probably doesn't understand it, never played on a PvP server, and he doesn't understand what makes us tick. That could be part of the issues why there has been no PvP content or PvP fixes, because frankly he may not feel it's an important aspect of the game. While I do appreciate Hobart fixing the couple of *urgent* long time issues, even he admitted that he has no idea how PvP works. I guess that is the reality with Vanguard today? That VG simply doesn't have any devs left that helped put the team & FFA ruleset together initially? So for them to dive into PvP, they have to start fresh, learn it from scratch, almost kinda like what they had to do with diplomacy after SOE let Aruspex go.
I like this game, lots of people like this game, but people are sick and tired of being ignored for almost 2 years now. It doesn't take much for him to respond to some players' ideas, suggestions, questions, and posts. If Silius and the rest of the dev team working on VG today don't understand PvP, then it would be even more beneficial for them to get into a dialogue with players, taking in their ideas & suggestions. And honestly the dev chat thing doesn't work, because I've been to the past 2 stratics devchats. While they were cool, my PvP questions were mysteriously not asked. The dev chats do not allow you to ask a question straight out, because the devs can choose what not to answer. So again, that further reinforce the feeling from the PvP community that PvP is being ignored.
All the bs aside, let me just ask devs this one more time. If you want to keep Sartok up and running, then please support it. The PvP rulesets have been in the game since launch, people paid for the game boxes & collector's editions to play the rulesets you implemented. If you have no plans to support it, then please just close it down and save everybody some heartaches. To all the none PvP crowds, seriously, 2 years of being ignored is long enough. There shouldn't be any more excuses to why they've ignored PvP for so long with absolutely no words & no plans to show for its future."
bcrankshaw, first of all man you're pointing out one experience of one person who ganked a lowbie character. I don't think the author was attempting in any way to refer to THIS type of act as the skill required for pvp. They were probably referring to two characters, on equal grounds dueling it out to the death, and as a hardcore PvPer since 1997 I can attest that this is not always an easy feat and DOES require plenty of skill.
Secondly, I highly doubt it was the original author's attention to deter anyone from playing vanguard or take away ANYTHING from the solid PvE of this game. They were simply stating that the PvP should definitely be looked into and given a little bit of "love," as this would bring in even more of a playerbase to the game, which in turn would even populate the PvE servers further as they see more people playing the game in general.
It might have never been made for PvP, but I assure you, myself, and a lot of the old school Rallos Zek players, had a ton of fun...
Before the teams/dieties/merges....
No level restrictions just leads to a ton of BS, now don't get me wrong. I am all for it as well. But I also am not that one donkey that camps the new player area, "PWNING" them either....