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EVE Online News - NPC Corporations to be Taxed
Posted by Michael Bitton on Sep 23, 2009 | 32 comments in our forums
While much of EVE Online's allure is the emergent gameplay the game allows for, many players are content to experience EVE at its more basic levels. One such example is the fact that many players stick to NPC corporations as opposed to joining player ones. After all, NPC corporations do offer some cushy benefits, such as the fact no one can declare war on an NPC corporation, and NPC corporations also do not tax their members. That latter bit? Well, that will be changing soon.
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In a dev blog entry entitled "I Bring Gifts! (By Gifts, I Mean Taxes, Sorry)" by CCP Soundwave, the developer explains that NPC corporations will be taxed at 11%. This was done for a number of reasons, one of these reasons being the removal of the aforementioned inherent advantage vs. player corporations that NPC corporations currently enjoy, while the other motive behind the changes is to encourage the players comfortable in these corps to join player corporations.
It should also be noted that these new taxes will only be applied to mission rewards, bounties, etc, and that they wont be simply pulled out of your pocket. Also, if you are participating in a faction warfare militia, you will not be taxed.
To close out the blog CCP Soundwave reminds us of that ol' bit about death 'n' taxes by saying,"while you may escape death in EVE, taxes will still get you."
Read the full blog entry here.
About dam time too, now all they need to do is let corporations war dec them.
No way. You would then have asshat players War Dec'ing on other players who OBVIOUSLY want nothing to do with PvP combat, in effort to have a range of soft targets to use for loot and boost their kill count. There is a reason why people remain in NPC Corps. They love the EVE game, rightly so, but do not wish to go into PvP combat. Forcing someone to YOUR chosen playstyle is not right, fair or in any way a good time for the one being forced.
I see the Eve devs have failed to grasp the concept that some people just DO NOT WANT TO BE CANNON FODDER FOR PVP.
Soon, they'll be penalizing people for never entering low sec and null sec, "Every night you spend in empire costs you 1,000,000 isk!"...
Lets see, corps for me:
Pro's:
Possibility of getting someone to haul for me for free...
Con's:
Taxes
Politics
Drama
War-decs when I don't want to PvP (ever)
I've remained in my newbie corps on my 2 mains for over 5 years to avoid all that crap. I help the newbs out when the newbie channel does not (which is always). CCP, this idea makes me want to quit just out of spite. I need Eve less than you need my 30 bucks a month.
"Also, if you are participating in a faction warfare militia, you will not be taxed."
What this is saying: We can't seem to figure out why most people in Eve don't want to do PvP, so we're going to FORCE you into it one way or the other!!!!"
Wormholes? By sticking tech 3 in there, they tried to get non-pvpers into the gunsights of the griefers, didn't work.
Faction Militias? By sticking FM only rewards into the game, they hoped to get non-pvpers into the gunsights of griefers, it didn't work.
The best ore/loot/npc bounties in low-null sec, they hope to get non-pvpers into the gunsights of griefers, it doesn't work (much, a few newbies get caught early on, and then quit).
The corporations that I have joined have generally set a tax level to 10% or less and I really never felt that it was much of a burden and in fact I generally gave away a lot more than I was ever taxed so I don't expect the 11% NPC tax rate to be much of a problem. For newbies they don't make much on bounties and the like so being a bit less won't stop them too much but I can see that having it at 11% would encourage some to take the plunge and try out a corporation.
It's not the worst thing I have ever heard.
Or, like most people I know who want to be left alone: Form their own corp. And then there's no tax again. But you can be war-dec'd by idiots (War-decing prices need to skyrocket with this change imho).
I see nothing wrong with this, unless I stretch to make more of it than there is.
However, CCP is the only current MMO to get sandbox right - sandbox meaning you can define your own way AND it is possible to go that way. The developing sandbox games refuse to recognize if there is not a means to take paths then those paths can not be followed and you no longer have a sandbox it is just a huge UFC ring. Which is fine just don't taint the sandbox game world by using it to describe your PVP only game.
Out of curiosity, how much money do you make off of bounties and missoins a month?
Out of curiosity, how much money do you make off of bounties and missoins a month?
Depends on the month, as I cycle between mining/exploration/trading/missions to keep the game as interesting as I can.
But if I'm running level 3-4's, many millions of isk in bounties, and millions in rewards. This would nullify 11% of that, which is not insignificant. For my 11% tax, my only "benefit" as they say is the inability to be war-dec'd, while player corps supposedly have all those "other" benefits which is why I find it funny that they're resorting to this tactic. If it was so great to be in a player corp, people would go there automatically. Many don't. That should tell CCP something. It obviously has, but they're reading it wrong. Instead of trying to fix the problem, they're treating a symptom.
The problem with many corporations for some people is that they are not a democracy and you are generally expected to contribute to the corp in some way or another and this gets much worse if you are part of an alliance and you have obligations to meet. Yes it helps the corporation grow and expand and you do have the fun of being part of something growing but somedays it is just a pain in the butt. And then you get the egomanical CEO and his horde of drooling syncophants and things can get really unpleasant unless you get to be the egomanical CEO muhahahahaha!
Small boutique corps used to be fairly common even with the chance of a wardec. I forget the people that ran around basically wardeccing anyone and everyone until limits were put in place but that made life annoying for the high sec population. I have two playing modes. The bored mode where I sit in a miner drilling away at a chunk of Ice and do email and chat and basically not much else and the get out there and have fun mode. When I am in the bored mode I really do not want to be messed with and as much as I like Eve I don't want someone coming around and messing with me when all I want to do is mine and chat. So, as long as I can generally mine without too much trouble I will be fine. The goobers don't bother me as I don't think Empire should be 100% safe but if it gets too much of a hassle it may cause me to decide it isn't worth it any more.
I am totally for people doing what they want to do in peace; but EvE is EvE. Security and safety comes at a price, and those in NPC corps should under no circumstances be exempt from this. I spent a couple of years in SAK before moving to a PvP corp. I have no issues with the animosity towards hiding in NPC corps, no problems with NPC corps people being KOS outside of high sec.
Do I think that starter NPC corps should be able to be war deced? No, but I don't think being in an NPC corp should be free either. I do think an 11% tax is WAY too soft on those who cling to that security.
Again, everything has a price, even your safety; welcome to EvE.
But my "price" is already paid: I cannot safely go anywhere in low or null sec with the idiotic NBSI policy that everyone follows. I cannot grow in power or prestige, I cannot have capital ships. I cannot have the best of player owned stations. I cannot control territory.
But see, that's the funny thing. I think giving up those things is worth LESS than the 11% tax. This is the core of CCP's problem. They have a very large group (70%) who almost never leave Empire. Their PVP is typically a blob gank at a warp gate or station in low sec. That's not fun for most people. So they keep trying to force people into a PvP system that is inherently un-fun for most people. That's why I think this tax is stupid. The only thing they'll "force" people to do is unsub.
I'm a carebear who's spent a lot of time in NPC corps, but I applaud this move. There should be a cost associated with wardec immunity and 11% is a pittance compared to what I make from selling modules and salvaging stuff.
If anything, perhaps it should have been higher, like 20-25% to really have a chance of accomplishing their goal of getting more players in player run corps?
Actually real noobs won't be affected at all as bounties/rewards below a certain amount is not taxed at all. I don't remember the exact amount but I think it's somewhere around 10k.
I find it hilarious anyone still plays this game. CCP's been making it unfun for years.
Personally if you stay in a NPC corp all the time you are missing half the fun in Eve. I have been in some great corps, sure people stop playing, but I have always been able to find another one.
If you have to play as a loner, don't come here moaning and groaning about changes. The NPC corps players have had it too good for too long.
I like the change.
interesting. I havent gotten to into eve yet. i Still constantly think about comin around for a few as its really one of the only solid sci fi /non fantasy mmos out, sure i miss not having an avatar or some melee combat lol but its not bad. I am not a big pvp player so ive generally just kept to myself and occasionaly socialize in the npc corp chat. So long as this doesnt affect me ability to play peacefully fine, ive got no issue with a tax on the npc corp. A corp is a corp. When i feel like takin some risks to get shot at by another player ill happily go venture out for some nice lower sec mining or npc hunting. Considering its not that hard to obtain isk even as a lower skilled player a small tax like 11% doesnt even seem that that huge an issue really.
But thats just me
..... you know if you found a decent corp that had pvpers to protect the industrial players, you could exploit the much better rewards of 0.0 and lowsec. Not leaving your safety bubble for fear of being ganked or losing a ship is pretty funny since it is a pvp game. I mean really, if everything is such a deathtrap, then why are there miners, and mission runners out in 0.0? They are probably making 2-4 times as much as you, and lose a few ships a month but hey, the profit pays for it. Risk versus reward, if you dont risk anything, you wont get as much of a reward. And imo, playing EVE without risk sounds boring as hell.
Heh, they aren't earning 2-4x as much as me. Evening mining non-stop ark won't net you 4x as much, and that's not possible.
And, there's those little things: Taxes (heh) and MOST corps will require the miner give up pretty much all they mine for the "good of the corp" so they can keep making ships to replace losses.
Its fairly safe to say that I make more in empire than the average joe does in a corp in zero-sec.
Heh, they aren't earning 2-4x as much as me. Evening mining non-stop ark won't net you 4x as much, and that's not possible.
And, there's those little things: Taxes (heh) and MOST corps will require the miner give up pretty much all they mine for the "good of the corp" so they can keep making ships to replace losses.
Its fairly safe to say that I make more in empire than the average joe does in a corp in zero-sec.
Well if you're earning more than them AND you don't have to make any effort to secure your own safety, then you can hardly complain about paying a rather low tax rate to compensate for that safety then, can you?
nah, his complaint is that CCP shouldn't try to support the pvp and grouping aspect of the game. He wants to solo, grind for isk, and never interact with people.
I have no idea why he is even playing a MMO.
The bizarre thing is that he believes his solo grind fest play stile is why the majority of people subscribe to EVE. Probably because he has never left a starter corp.....
Yeah, that could be it. Or maybe he/she has a completely valid point that a majority of the players (I think I heard 70% but I wouldn't know) of the people who play Eve do not participate in player Corps. So why, after so many years, are they suddenly deciding that 70% (again just using someone else's number) of the population is wrong? Eric seems to be making some very valid points. He/she has no desire to PvP, no desire to be in a Corporation, no desire to control territory, no desire to participate in any of the other things which are "perks" of joing a player Corps. So why "encourage" them to take that leap?
As far as people bashing the "solo" aspect of his/her gameplay, you're going against what virtually every fanboy of Eve proclaims to be a huge draw of the game. The economy! There are people who only participate in the economy and never interact with people on a face-to-face basis, yet they influence almost everything you or I do in the game. They make our weapons, ammunition, the ships you destroy on a weekly basis, etc. Yet they want nothing to do with you directly and could EASILY be considered a "solo" player. Do they have no part in the game? Or maybe you accept them because they provide a necessary part of your world, even though that world has no direct interaction with PvP combat.
Some of you people are amazingly hypocritical. No this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with taxes but it does cut at the core of your argument. Not everyone wants to be a pawn in your PvP blob. They would rather sit in the background and provide you with munitions. Guess those non-interacting "solo" players are worthless eh? They better PvP and like it, or leave and play another game right?
People have different ideas of fun.
The tax may encourage people to leave NPC corporations but that's not what it's for. Taxation provides and easily adjustable way to help reduce the effects of purely PvE players inflating the economy by over grinding isk in a virtually risk free environment. It's an economic adjustment plain and simple.
These sort of stats are not based on players but characters. There is a benefit to having a character in high sec that is in a npc noob corp to move stuff safely or to sell your loot etc. So his argument that the majority of players only want a solo pve grind fest is simply wrong. Every account has three available characters, high sec alts are invaluable and skew the empire hugging character stats and don't represent players activity.
sorry but you are simply off the mark. He said that he wants to be left alone. By taking part in the market he is taking part in PvP. That is his hypocrisy not mine. I said, i do not see why he plays a MMO if he wants to be left alone.
I never said that he must pvp, but that his desire to solo and not group are not valid concerns for a company that centered its game design around a single world, single server so that everyone does interact to some degree.
I was in the NPC corp for a reasonable time (about a year). My reason for being there was that there was no real incentive to not be. Player corporations seemed neat enough, but I was doing alright on my own it seemed. I had turned down offers to join corps because I didn't want to be bothered with it, but one day I got a random invite and figured "why not?". Turned out to be a great move and really opened up a lot of game play options for me that I had not previously explored.
Based on my own experience, I think this is a good and anything that encourages people to experience more of the game is a good move. I think the tax rate is a bit low to be a significant motivator for many though.
In the end, EvE players will do what EvE players do. I can't imagine it will be long until a no-tax "newbie corp" pops up. Or, perhaps this is EvE Uni already....Wardecs would be the only real new concern for people and, as others stated, 11% seems pretty reasonable for immunity if that's your main gripe.
Naturally, this is all my opinion so your mileage may vary...
Actually Yoottos no one is being hypercritical. They just understand the game far better than you or Eric.
I spend a lot of time in low-sec and 0.0 yet I rarely pvp. In a good corp you can be anything you want to be and are not forced into pvping. I don't know any corp that takes most of your ore or whatever you provide. I keep most of my cash, yet since I am rather well off I do donate a lot of things to the corp. Having a strong corp behind you deters most wardecs. The last corp to wardec us end up paying us to leave them alone.
Joining a good corp opens up a lot of things a player in a NPC corp does not have access too. Seems to me, those that choose that way of playing miss all the good parts of Eve. Of course it is your prerogative to do so. I think it is just CCP's way of encouraging players to actually try more than a tiny portion of the game out.
When Dominion hits the servers you will see 0.0 opening up more to the smaller corps. Big corps will need them to hold and develop systems and you won't be a slave to the big corps either, they can't hold the systems without you so you have a major bargaining chip to play.
^this, took the words right out of my mouth.
Sure this make those in NPC corps, which includes my main and alt atm, join player corps. As in one man corps they make to avoid that tax. In my opinion this will just cause the opposite effect that they intend. It will just make people MORE anti-social because they will just leave the NPC corps.
Not to mention you think about it, it's really just like 3% of the total income for mission runners. Bounties make up around 30% of the income for missioniers. This is of course assuming they salvage and loot which they should. I'll take my 3% lost and stay immune to war decs until I find a corp suitable to join.
And I obviously disagree. You believe a large portion of Eve's fun can be derived from player corps whereas I, and I would argue most of the player base, disagree. After all, CCP wouldn't be implementing these changes if it wasn't so. Your highlighted text is just blind arrogance. In a game toted as a true sandbox how could you possibly accuse anyone of playing it incorrectly or not properly understanding it?
Makes me glad I quit this game when I did. Between BS like this and the corrupt dev team, I'm surprised the population is continuing to grow.
You'd think that with a change like this they'd at LEAST increase the cost of a wardec substantially, or have it be a mutual affair. But of course not. That would imply intelligence and integrity on their part. It's a shame really, I do miss hunting in lowsec from time to time. Ah well.
Thank you Yoottos for reinforcing my point. The thing you can't get into your narrow mind is that a MMO is designed for player interaction. If that simple fact does not register with you, maybe you should just stick to playing the solo rpg games. There are plenty of them out there.
And I obviously disagree. You believe a large portion of Eve's fun can be derived from player corps whereas I, and I would argue most of the player base, disagree. After all, CCP wouldn't be implementing these changes if it wasn't so. Your highlighted text is just blind arrogance. In a game toted as a true sandbox how could you possibly accuse anyone of playing it incorrectly or not properly understanding it?
you dont have to deal with the risks normal players have to deal with. A 11% tax is well worth the wardec immunity. NPC corps are only meant to get newer players on their feet before they join a real corporation. Although the npc corporations have been exploited by alts and macroers. If you dont like it, leave. You dont need to be in a npc corp to solo, i soloed half the time i was in my old corp.
He does interact with players via the market and trade. How is that a difficult concept to understand? Just because it isn't the type of interaction you prefer doesn't mean it's any less relavant. Nice narrow minded comment by the way. When you have nothing to stand on, insult the person?