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EVE Online Forum » Jita (General) » EVE Online F2P

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165 posts found
  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/11/12 1:38:57 PM#61

F2P for EvE is flagging a dead horse. That shit only works for those more single than multiplayer MMOs like SWTOR, which you can play without a guild/corp.

In EvE metagaming is big, and no sane corp would invite a F2P player and give him any kind of access for three reasons:

 

1. If you have to pay 15$ to roll an alt you need to steal about 800 mil to meet the ISK value of it. Anything less and you might aswell have sold a GTC.

2. With F2P you make money even with 10 mil stolen. Lots of players would make F2P alts, plant them in corps and steal all the crap they get their hands on, only to recycle the chars and repeat.

3. CEOs will be aware of 1 and 2 and require a running sub as a entry requirement into the corp, to show people are dedicated to the game(and not just an alt there to steal our crap).

 

And without access to player run corps EvE sucks big time. Besides F2P players are less dedicated to the game, and training/equipping people costs time and money. Why should i be arsed to spend all my evening teaching you the ropes of EvE and our corp, if you can't be arsed enough to actually pay for the game or play enough to afford a plex?

And im saying that as someone who is very open in regards to F2P in other games like LotRO, STO and SWTOR. But in EvE, as a director, i just don't see the benefit vs risks in F2P players for our corp and we are pretty laidback and casual.

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

12/11/12 7:29:35 PM#62
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by Rydeson

Those are not facts but opinion why YOU feel F2P would fail.. and you use YOUR rules of F2P to justify..  TRY again..  Thank you

...Have you even played the game past the trial period? Haven't you ever had a spy alt steal from your corp (I have), or witnessed the Burn Jita event (I did) or have seen the permanent gank-gangs outside the main Jita station (and I do mean PERMANENT)? You keep asking for "facts" on how a F2P system would affect a game that has a level of logistical and tactical metagame complexity completely unheard of anywhere else, and there is nothing to compare to. My "facts" as it were are based off of plain logical thought, and I'm surprised you don't see them. So let's try again:  keyword being "YOUR" facts on how F2P wouuld effect the game.. No one is saying that gankings and spy doesn't happen, they do and happen on PAID accounts.. So to imply that subscriptions immune you from poor judgement and actions doesn't hold up.. I never once said "immune". Of course it will happen. The key thing is, with F2P introduced it would MULTIPLY.

1a) It is a FACT that suicide ganking happens in Eve No one said ganking doesn't happen.. You are off topic here arguing about something that wasn't said..   The fact that sky is blue is true, but had nothing to do with this topic.. You obviously don't recognize build-up to an argument. I'm presenting what is in the game now, and will later show how F2P will affect that. It's a logic sequence for an argument, so take your finger off the trigger

1b) It is a FACT that suicide ganking is at least partially controlled because the players that do it get a significant security status hit each time, enough of them and they won't even be able to enter Hisec without the NPC police blowing them out of the sky on sight. (read above)(same to you)

1c) It is a FACT resulting from simple logic that if Eve went F2P the players that like to suicide gank would waste no time in creating legions of free suicide gank drone accounts to accelerate their work. Why wouldn't they? It would result in a significant increase in their profit rate as well as "moar carebear tears" as some of them like to say. I'd probably do it too. They could just cycle through account names, discarding ones that have too low of a sec status in place of a new one. If properly set up initially you could get a very effective Thrasher ganker up and running inside of two days in terms of skill training (and if you don't understand that as a fact, you REALLY haven't played the game). You obviously didn't bother reading the entire post(s).. You are assuming that F2P means anyone can have 100% access to the game.. As I said, that is NOT my stance.. Pay as you go is my stance.. Could someone invest $$ to unlock enough of the game to become a spy and ganker as you worry about.. Sure.. But that is no different then someone investing the same $$ in a temporary sub to do the same thing you are trying to avoid.. Dude...they would have to cripple the access of a F2P account to the point of it being unplayable to avoid free gankers. If a player can get into a ship, change its fit, undock and go through hisec stargates, which is 1% of the game, they can gank. These are the absolute bare-bones tools that all new players need and are even trained on during the tutorials. And yes, I did read your entire post stream.  What you call "casual pay-as-you-go" also results in Pay to Win, which is the worst concept ever invented in the entire history of gaming. One player should not get an advantage over another just because he dumped more real life money into the game. The player who puts the most effort and thought into their actions should be the one to win. With a subscription model like what Eve has, everyone gets the same access, rich or poor. So they have to rely on their wits to survive. It's a better system, simple as that. Oh, and your comment about "It's amazing how so many sub games already suffer from spammies so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything"...yes it does. There is nothing on earth that can outright prevent spammers in games. They will find a way. What a sub does is prevent an absolute LEGION of spammers from invading everywhere; it helps control the number of them because spammers don't want to spend tons of money to spam.

Next point:

2a) It is a FACT that Eve's living, epic economy depends on a careful balance of supply vs demand, creation vs destruction HUH?  lol  Who is arguing that EVE doesn't have an ecomomy? As I said, fact is sky is blue, but it has nothing to do with this topic or what I'm saying.. See my previous comment about a logical buildup to an argument

2b) It is a FACT that excessive mining supply (i.e. bots) can negatively affect the market, hence recent anti-bot campaigns. (read above)(same to you)

2c) It is a FACT resulting from simple logic that if Eve went F2P the players who like to mine would waste no time in creating a legion of mining drones that they could run at the same time (hell, I probably would too) and completely glut the market with supply for hisec ores (which are used in pretty much EVERYTHING) and ruin the market. Again you are using YOUR set of rules of F2P to base your argument from.. There are safety protocols to keep multiple accounts being generated by a single sourse.. MMORPG.com uses some to only allow ONE account per ISP...  and even if there are those diehards that can find backdoors into multple accounts, what good would it do for them if they are LOCKED out from all mining outside the starting locations.. I don't have any rules for F2P, I never said I did nor do I ever intend to claim that I have F2P rules. I'm going based off of historical fact as to what has happened in previous F2P games. And those "safety protocols" you mention don't work well. I have myself been able to get around such protocols on various sites quite easily. And as for being locked out from all mining outside the starting locations, not only is that cripplingly unfair they could still pump out a very hefty amount of minerals in those starting locations and transfer them to sub accounts by jetcan mining. The economy would still be blasted.

If you have any abilities in logic at all, you should also see the spying implications I mentioned in my previous post.

The fact (!) of the matter is, if there is an easier way to make a profit in Eve people will do it. There isn't a single thing you can say that can disprove what I stated above, and if you even try that will prove that you really don't understand Eve Online or the people in it at all.

total strawman argument you posted.. you are arguing your stance using your set of rules.. Sorry.. but try again..  Happy Holidays.. You have yet to provide good counters to my arguments bud. You should try again.

 

Where's the any key?

  Elsabolts

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 2695

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of those that would threaten It

12/11/12 7:37:12 PM#63

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

  Boardwalker

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 383

12/12/12 12:41:54 AM#64
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

Creating another server, and a PVE one at that, would be more catastrophic than going F2P. It would destroy a big part of EVE's core identity and break it utterly. I'd rather deal with a bunch of freeloaders.

They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1806

12/12/12 2:34:19 AM#65
Originally posted by Rydeson

The reason why trial accounts don't work is because you are locked OUT of doing much after a certain point.. same can be done with F2P.... I don't know why so many assume that F2P means "everything" is free with no restrictions.. As I have said, if F2P was set up correctly, it would not cause any problems against full paying subs..  HELL.. I would even be interested in a limited sub plan.. Such as $5 a month and I get 10 hours of game time per month as an example..

How would the limited sub plan work? Would your skills also only train for those 10 hours per month?

If not, again a lot of players would change their normal subs to limited ones because they only keep those subs to train their alts while they play their mains. End result - CCP would lose money.

If on the other hand the skills would also only train 10 hours a month the limited sub would be worthless.

 

Again I have to wonder. Have you ever even tried EVE?

 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3555

12/12/12 5:05:22 AM#66
Originally posted by Rocketeer

F2P for EvE is flagging a dead horse. That shit only works for those more single than multiplayer MMOs like SWTOR, which you can play without a guild/corp.

In EvE metagaming is big, and no sane corp would invite a F2P player and give him any kind of access for three reasons:

 

1. If you have to pay 15$ to roll an alt you need to steal about 800 mil to meet the ISK value of it. Anything less and you might aswell have sold a GTC.

2. With F2P you make money even with 10 mil stolen. Lots of players would make F2P alts, plant them in corps and steal all the crap they get their hands on, only to recycle the chars and repeat.

3. CEOs will be aware of 1 and 2 and require a running sub as a entry requirement into the corp, to show people are dedicated to the game(and not just an alt there to steal our crap).

 

And without access to player run corps EvE sucks big time. Besides F2P players are less dedicated to the game, and training/equipping people costs time and money. Why should i be arsed to spend all my evening teaching you the ropes of EvE and our corp, if you can't be arsed enough to actually pay for the game or play enough to afford a plex?

And im saying that as someone who is very open in regards to F2P in other games like LotRO, STO and SWTOR. But in EvE, as a director, i just don't see the benefit vs risks in F2P players for our corp and we are pretty laidback and casual.  this caught my eye big time.. I keep hearing how F2P is going to allow spy's and thieves, etc etc.. It's kinda hard to spy and steal from corps if you don't INVITE them into your corp..  You can't blame the thief or spy if you don't take the time to get to know your players before inviting them into your family (guild/corp).. I was a guild master in multiple games and never once had a problem with guild members stealing or drama.. Maybe because I don't invite every stranger I bump into.. Get to know your players before giving them the keys to the city.. lol

      Well there you go.. You pretty much confirmed my position that F2P wouldn't have a game destroy effect as many believe..  As you said, NO real corp and group of dedicated hardcore players have time to babysit F2P newbies..  And as a F2P freeloader you really aren't in a position to do much in the game on your own.. Correct?  My position on "correctly" set up cash shop models is that a player pays as he goes..  Today's MMO's are all modeled that a customer is going to consume X amount of content at a rate to justify a monthly sub.. ($15)..  But what happens when said customer only casually plays 1/5th of the time of the average customer.. To him he's not getting his money's worth.. It's just like asking a old man to pay for a buffet when he knows he's only going to consume a half a plate of food..

     Any game can be designed to host both sub based customers and cash shop customers.. The problem today, is that almost all F2P models are really only trial accounts in disguise, that penalize the customer to entice them to go sub because without doing so, is no fun..  SWTOR is a prime example of that..  GW2 is a better example of a good cash shop system.. NOT perfect, but better then anything I've played so far.. 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3555

12/12/12 5:14:24 AM#67
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

     Good idea.. a PvE server would definately be interesting, and something I would look into more..  IF EVE doesn't offer it, maybe newer ideas like "Elite Dangerous"  would..  Not every person wants to live in a PvP world.. Probably why CCP hasn't grown in the last 2.5 years.. Offering a new server to PvE minded players would open up a new market of players and have NO EFFECT on the current servers..

  Krematory

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 543

MMOHOLIC

12/12/12 5:25:26 AM#68
A pve server make no sense given the game design. Without pvp economy woul suck, and low/null sec would make no sense at all.

"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

12/12/12 5:27:16 AM#69

A PVE server in EVE-Online would be similar to having PVE server for PlanetSide2 or CounterStrike.

Doesn't fit at all.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Elsabolts

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 2695

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of those that would threaten It

12/12/12 5:33:59 AM#70
Originally posted by jpnz

A PVE server in EVE-Online would be similar to having PVE server for PlanetSide2 or CounterStrike.

Doesn't fit at all.

If this is not true then why did CCP give china there own server ?

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1806

12/12/12 5:34:27 AM#71
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

     Good idea.. a PvE server would definately be interesting, and something I would look into more..  IF EVE doesn't offer it, maybe newer ideas like "Elite Dangerous"  would..  Not every person wants to live in a PvP world.. Probably why CCP hasn't grown in the last 2.5 years.. Offering a new server to PvE minded players would open up a new market of players and have NO EFFECT on the current servers..

 

Oh god. Please stop already.

There is a PvE server in EVE already. It's called High Sec.

 

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

12/12/12 5:37:08 AM#72
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

     Good idea.. a PvE server would definately be interesting, and something I would look into more..  IF EVE doesn't offer it, maybe newer ideas like "Elite Dangerous"  would..  Not every person wants to live in a PvP world.. Probably why CCP hasn't grown in the last 2.5 years.. Offering a new server to PvE minded players would open up a new market of players and have NO EFFECT on the current servers..

 

Oh god. Please stop already.

There is a PvE server in EVE already. It's called High Sec.

 

Yeah.....asking for a PvE server means you're missing the point of EvE.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Krematory

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 543

MMOHOLIC

12/12/12 5:39:30 AM#73
China server is not a pve server, and it only exists because the chinese government is full of shit, not because CCP thinks its a good idea.

"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  Elsabolts

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 2695

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of those that would threaten It

12/12/12 5:39:38 AM#74
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

     Good idea.. a PvE server would definately be interesting, and something I would look into more..  IF EVE doesn't offer it, maybe newer ideas like "Elite Dangerous"  would..  Not every person wants to live in a PvP world.. Probably why CCP hasn't grown in the last 2.5 years.. Offering a new server to PvE minded players would open up a new market of players and have NO EFFECT on the current servers..

 

Oh god. Please stop already.

There is a PvE server in EVE already. It's called High Sec.

 

LOL, Humm I guess someone forgot to tell the Goonies ie: " Goonswarm " along with Suicide ganking. Concord can no longer protect anyone in High Sec.

  Krematory

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 543

MMOHOLIC

12/12/12 5:43:55 AM#75
Concord was never meant to protect anyone. They're there to punish crime, not to prevent it. And it works fine this way. So if you're not ok with that move on and find another game that fits your needs, but please stop talking nonsense about eve.

"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1638

12/12/12 5:44:17 AM#76
Originally posted by Elsabolts

 

LOL, Humm I guess someone forgot to tell the Goonies ie: " Goonswarm " along with Suicide ganking. Concord can no longer protect anyone in High Sec.

 

SHOCKER:

 

 

highsec has NEVER been 100% safe.

The only 100% certainty you get in highsec killing carebears is that the attacker gets killed by Concord, evading them is a exploit and it'll get them banned. It has never been the case in EVE that Concord prevents the victom from getting blown up.

I've been suiciding on freighters and miners (funganks) for many years now, before the tier3 battlecrousers were released and Goonswarm were qualified for anything else then t1 fitted rifters.

PVE only server for EVE?  then CCP will be closing their doors in 6 months and all the PVE fanatics will be crying about how evil CCP is and how good EVE was.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  hfztt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 692

12/12/12 5:44:47 AM#77
Originally posted by Elsabolts
Originally posted by jpnz

A PVE server in EVE-Online would be similar to having PVE server for PlanetSide2 or CounterStrike.

Doesn't fit at all.

If this is not true then why did CCP give china there own server ?

To market an MMO directly in China, Chineese authorities need to be able to censor content. Next question.

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

12/12/12 5:48:30 AM#78

EvE is already PvE, you know?

Untill someone starts shooting, that is.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1806

12/12/12 5:51:36 AM#79
Originally posted by Elsabolts
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Elsabolts

Could we all just try and get along, Im sure all the old vets would now go along with a PVE server. CCp gave China there own server so its not like there gonna preserve just one server.

     Good idea.. a PvE server would definately be interesting, and something I would look into more..  IF EVE doesn't offer it, maybe newer ideas like "Elite Dangerous"  would..  Not every person wants to live in a PvP world.. Probably why CCP hasn't grown in the last 2.5 years.. Offering a new server to PvE minded players would open up a new market of players and have NO EFFECT on the current servers..

 

Oh god. Please stop already.

There is a PvE server in EVE already. It's called High Sec.

 

LOL, Humm I guess someone forgot to tell the Goonies ie: " Goonswarm " along with Suicide ganking. Concord can no longer protect anyone in High Sec.

Oh they protect it quite well. I would wager the ratio of ships lost in High sec between PvE and PvP somewhere around 100 to 1.

Seriously, if you manage to get suicide ganked in high-sec you're either extremely careless, extremely dumb or extremely unlucky.

 

  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1638

12/12/12 5:52:34 AM#80
Originally posted by BizkitNL

EvE is already PvE, you know?

Untill someone starts shooting, that is.

it's just that PVE people have to use their brains, and with the current generation -I can't go AFK for 3hrs watching Disney while I am sitting in a big hauler carrying a big phat cargo- it's heaven for those that do use 'em.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

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