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EVE Online Forum » Jita (General) » I have been a big opponent of this game for years but...

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52 posts found
  freejackmack

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 379

 
OP  11/21/12 10:28:23 PM#1

I have been a big opponent of this game for years but I have just read the website for the new expansion and it is full of win; if not just for the ship balancing and new ships that should have always been in Eve, then there is the bounty system that really shines with the ability to choose limitations on who your bounty is paid out to.

This means wars are more manageable for both the soldiers and the corp/alliance/coalition leaders. Soldiers can get immediate compensation for their efforts and leaders don't have to sift through pages of mail and then manually send off money.

That type of mechanic means more fun for all. Well done CCP, well done. This mechanic, exactly as described, should be in every mmo from now on, with no exceptions!

Read the details about the new bounty system for yourself if you have not already: bounty system

The simple brilliance of this system is very elegant; and I was skeptical when I first heard about the bounty system changing. I'm jealous that I did not come up with the system myself. This forces me to acknowledge the fact that there is hope for CCP, where as, before reading the details of this system I was wondering if CCP was just a front for the International Weed Smokers Association movement or a bunch of coked out x pimps. I guess they still could be but no-doubt they were exceptional at their trade and do well on drugs judging buy the details of the new systems.

The only thing that could facilitate war payout more effectively would be a bounty payed out automatically from corps/alliances/coalitions to people who kill a non allied ship with in a designated perimeter or select systems.

The new balancing is great; the new frigates are essential. The new short warp mod should have been reality at release. All the content in the new upcoming patch concerning ships should have been in game from day 1. But better now then never.

Other features like ui refinements and Crimewatch are really necessary and the AI revamp could be good as well for added fun.

This patch if all goes well will be the best patch in the 10 year history of Eve; I think you all can agree on that.

  Eluwien

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/08
Posts: 169

11/22/12 5:00:15 AM#2


WHO - Online 08-10
WoW - Online since launch.
LOTR-O - Online 06-08
EVE - Online 07-Now
DAoC - Online 01-Now
Also played : AC, EQ, EQ2, DDO,
Cabal, D&L, GW, LA2, Ryzom
Shaiya, SWG, Allods
Waiting : DAoC2

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/22/12 7:25:36 AM#3

Agree with poster above...

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19396

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/22/12 7:47:16 AM#4
Hmm, I read a bit of the new patch notes and thought, I wonder why they thought a lot of this was really important/necessary. I just didn't see it. I'll have to go back and reread to see what I missed the first time.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  freejackmack

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 379

 
OP  11/23/12 9:48:50 AM#5

All right I expected more of a positive reaction to this patch then I see in this thread; so maybe if I explain why this patch is so good in my eye's, my enthusiasm will be better understood and you can tell me where I'm wrong.

First is the frigate revamp. This is awesome for at least 2 reasons:

 1) New players will not feel so useless and will more likely stick around. Also it gives new ones a taste of the way better ships play which means the frigates are now training new ones better for latter game play. It makes a lot of sense to me; and even the new frigate mining ship is good because it will help players gain wealth as they progress. Very good stuff for Eve players and CCP.

 2) PvP is an old friend of mine and better designed frigates means more bang for your ISK. More fun to be had with more frequent roams and new players can back up the vets better and that is awesome because it comes at the same time as the bounty revamp.

Now the bounty revamp is the big upgrade imo. If you ever fought in huge conflicts in big coalitions then you know the pain of trying to get people to take the initiative to get together for the fight. A lot of people myself included are worried that proper compensation will not be had for my efforts.

Well the bounty system can easily change that by making payouts easier and more quickly too because the bounty system integrates the theme of war more seamlessly into Eve's programing. The bounty system gives us better tools with time saving features. You can pick who exactly you want to get the bounty. So if you want your corp to put pressure on an organization you have real power to make it happen quickly.

Which is great because I do not want to be screwing around with paying or trying to get paid ISK when I could be shooting people. And that is the frosting on my cake. I like to play Eve as a game more than as a job.

But also the bounty system makes it easier for corps that would rather mine then fight a war dec. You can throw money at the problem literally, to make it go away. With the payout set to damage inflicted this could be a lasting solution for unwanted war decs for those that have the cash.

I also found that bounty hunting was largely not set up as a profession that I could do to try to make some cash. Now with the ability to throw a bounty on whole alliances I see real potential opportunities to sharpen my skills for. This gives me new incentive to try it.

But think of all the cash that will be thrown around with this system. It will be interesting I think.

I wanted to talk about Destroyers and Cruisers as well. I remember when I was trying to figure out what direction I wanted to go as a new player and I never gave destroyer real consideration because I wanted to use missiles as a Caldari pilot and there was no Caldari Destroyer that I could train for.

I feel that PvP would have been more easy to adjust to if I had that option when I was starting out and I think now I will skill for the new missile destroyer to see how it works in PvP because I heard they are really nice. I pretty much skipped over light missiles as there was nothing really interesting to do with them.

Cruisers are getting tweaked so that they work better which makes me more interested in flying them to aid my fleet. Some ships have been broken in their role for far too long. Now they seemed to be at least pretty well done. Every ship has a role or 3 that they are good for which is the point. If a ship is not measuring up then get rid of it or fix it; that makes sense.

AI is pretty much a bore and I welcome any change to the system to make it more interesting but I also hope payout for missions reflect the new difficulty of the AI.

The Crimewatch update is just necessary. I still do not understand when it is safe to shoot in high sec and welcome the clarity and am also happy to see that neutral repairers are going to be flagged and inherit their targets timer cool down. But also love the fact that I can open my kill rights to everyone. That really puts the policing in the hands of the community. I'm curious to see what develops from this.

[mod edit]

  Greymantle4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 773

11/23/12 11:07:24 AM#6
War Decs keep me from coming back to Eve. I get in a new small corp and were having fun then bam war dec by some 50 year vet and we die and or people quit. What fun :( This has happen each time I have come back. I stopped coming back.
  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3211

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/23/12 11:13:34 AM#7
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
War Decs keep me from coming back to Eve. I get in a new small corp and were having fun then bam war dec by some 50 year vet and we die and or people quit. What fun :( This has happen each time I have come back. I stopped coming back.

Wardecs are pretty trivial to evade.

Create new corp -> all move to new corp

That said, most corps don't get wardecced. It might be worth thinking about why you always seem to get decced. If you have any thoughts, I'd be happy to advise you on how to mitigate the risk.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/23/12 2:26:36 PM#8


Originally posted by freejackmack

New players will not feel so useless...

...until older player in Trasher vaporize them in 1-2 volleys.

You are praising changes just for the sake of being it a change, regardless of actual impact those change have or have not.


CCP is failing to deliver since 2008...

  freejackmack

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 379

 
OP  11/23/12 4:12:00 PM#9

Originally posted by kovah

[mod edit]

Sorry, I'm not much of a forum warrior and don't read forum rules ever; so sue me?

Originally posted by Malcanis
[mod edit]

Not a disguise, but I am fishing for buddies :) Wanna be my buddy?

Originally posted by Zeppelin4
War Decs keep me from coming back to Eve. I get in a new small corp and were having fun then bam war dec by some 50 year vet and we die and or people quit. What fun :( This has happen each time I have come back. I stopped coming back.

Exactly, happend to every corp I have been in except like 2. It should be a bit more straight forword on how to best deal with this imo. There are ways though.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Zeppelin4
War Decs keep me from coming back to Eve. I get in a new small corp and were having fun then bam war dec by some 50 year vet and we die and or people quit. What fun :( This has happen each time I have come back. I stopped coming back.

Wardecs are pretty trivial to evade.

Create new corp -> all move to new corp

That said, most corps don't get wardecced. It might be worth thinking about why you always seem to get decced. If you have any thoughts, I'd be happy to advise you on how to mitigate the risk.

It depends on how much a corp is bent on relieving their hurt reputation in my experience. It can be quite an ordeal when things spin up.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by freejackmack

New players will not feel so useless...

 

...until older player in Trasher vaporize them in 1-2 volleys.

You are praising changes just for the sake of being it a change, regardless of actual impact those change have or have not.


CCP is failing to deliver since 2008...

Yes new ones will be damaged in PvP but frigates should at least be able to stand with the Eve vets and come out on top when they are properly trained to do the task they need to do. The cheap nature of the frigates does not mean they should not be able to fill at least one roll in combat and industry. The next patch seems to give new ones a better chance with better more defined and boosted performance in the ships that exist and create ships to fill gaps that were there.

There should be steps, clear paths were you are not stuck for weeks on end without being able to fly a ship that does what you are interested in doing. Tiers of roles is the best way. Tier 1 frigates should not be useless; they should be sought after for fleets. So frigates need to be effective and not just junk. I think that vets should want to use frigates more as well. I think more vets will take a look at the updated and new ships to see if they can fill a need or a want.

I agree that Eve lacks in some areas as I have said for years but this patch imo is one of the best things CCP could have done to start making the game better.

 

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/23/12 7:13:29 PM#10


Originally posted by freejackmack

The cheap nature of the frigates does not mean they should not be able to fill at least one roll in combat and industry.

...

Tiers of roles is the best way.


Frigates always had place in EVE and their use remains unchanged. Ships always had their roles, regardless of tiers. Only what has changed is a label, tier -> role.


Nothing you talk about is actually changing anything in game. It is just vain marketing speech.


It is still Winmatar online like it used to be for years and years...no balance improvement achieved.

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3211

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/25/12 3:59:31 AM#11

Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.

The "tier" concept was obseleted years ago (ie when people stopped caring about the cost difference between a Caracal and a Moa), and it's been a millstone around ship balancing ever since. Even the bittervets on Kugu and FHC are excited about the reworked ships. (The Moa and the Thorax are gonna own btw)

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/25/12 5:43:19 AM#12


Originally posted by Malcanis

Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.


Yet, Rifter is the most flown frigate for years and by a large margin. Killboard stats are very clear what races and weapon platforms are preferred. There is nothing to discuss.

You can lick CCP's boots as much as you want or you can play "I am bittervet from 3rd party forums that is l33t and knows it all" card but that won't change facts about the game.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

11/25/12 7:13:31 AM#13
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Malcanis

 

Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.


 

Yet, Rifter is the most flown frigate for years and by a large margin. Killboard stats are very clear what races and weapon platforms are preferred. There is nothing to discuss.

You can lick CCP's boots as much as you want or you can play "I am bittervet from 3rd party forums that is l33t and knows it all" card but that won't change facts about the game.

Which is why ships get rebalanced. Besides anyone who played eve for a bit longer knows that it wasn't always "winmatar", Caldari, Amarr and Gallente had their, albeit shorter, sweet spot in time aswell. 

That being said Minmatar does indeed have some awesome ships lik, sleipnir, hurricane, rifter, thrasher and vagabond. All of which either get no buff or even nerfs with the coming patch while the other races get big boosts. The rest of minnies lineup is and was basicly mediocre anyway.

The battlefield of new eden will NOT be the same once retribution hits. Im very much looking forward to dozens of "new" viable ships to fly. Also i can finally tell new players that like amarr or caldari ships to go and train for them, cause they will still be viable in pvp.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/25/12 9:34:23 AM#14


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Besides anyone who played eve for a bit longer knows that it wasn't always "winmatar", Caldari, Amarr and Gallente had their, albeit shorter, sweet spot in time aswell. 


If you want to call +5 years of Minmatar dominating PVP a "sweet spot"..ok..

  itchmon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1603

11/25/12 9:42:16 AM#15

while i agree that the OP is buddyfishing i agree that the lower tier ship rebalancing is really a nice change.  and the winmatar ships might be getting a small nerf now, but the high and holy pve beast drake is getting it next.

 

the UI redo doesnt matter to me who has been playing since 2007  but to a new player i think it will be better to conceptualize combat in eve.

 

the bounty system stuff, well, doesnt really matter too much to me, the crimewatch doesnt effect me because i'm mostly in 0.0 but i think the changes there were a long time coming.

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

Dwight D Eisenhower

My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins

  User Deleted
11/25/12 10:00:03 AM#16
Originally posted by itchmon

while i agree that the OP is buddyfishing i agree that the lower tier ship rebalancing is really a nice change.  and the winmatar ships might be getting a small nerf now, but the high and holy pve beast drake is getting it next.

 

the UI redo doesnt matter to me who has been playing since 2007  but to a new player i think it will be better to conceptualize combat in eve.

 

the bounty system stuff, well, doesnt really matter too much to me, the crimewatch doesnt effect me because i'm mostly in 0.0 but i think the changes there were a long time coming.

op has really blown it off 

  Dalano

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 116

11/28/12 10:29:21 PM#17
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Malcanis

 

Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.


 

Yet, Rifter is the most flown frigate for years and by a large margin. Killboard stats are very clear what races and weapon platforms are preferred. There is nothing to discuss.

You can lick CCP's boots as much as you want or you can play "I am bittervet from 3rd party forums that is l33t and knows it all" card but that won't change facts about the game.

Rifters are pretty much junk now. Incursus, Merlin, and Punisher are all 3x better. 

Heck, even the new Atron and Condor are better. Slashers are the new Minmatar go-to frig, and they're pretty good, but not head and shoulders above the comp like the Rifter used to be.

Things are set to change even more next week with the revamped Kestrel and Tristan making the scene. The days of Rifter supremacy are gone. The only people who fly them now are diehards and folks who haven't gotten the memo.

A quick glance at the RvB killboards shows the current state of the frig metagame:

http://rvbeve.com/blue/?a=home

 

 

Playing: FFXIV, EVE

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3211

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/29/12 4:08:16 AM#18
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Malcanis

 

Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.



 

Yet, Rifter is the most flown frigate for years and by a large margin. Killboard stats are very clear what races and weapon platforms are preferred. There is nothing to discuss.

You can lick CCP's boots as much as you want or you can play "I am bittervet from 3rd party forums that is l33t and knows it all" card but that won't change facts about the game.

OK now you're just making a fool of yourself.. The T1 frigate range has just been completely and massively reworked. It's completely irrelevent what happened over the last few years, because balance conditions are totally different now.

And FYI Minmatar were widely considered the gimp race until the projectile ammo / tracking enhancer buff which was, IIRC in Dominion, 2 years ago. Not 5.

 

So if you want to talk "facts about the game" make sure you've got them right (maybe try logging in to check them?) before you walk into a wall like that.

Hope these independently verifiable data aren't too "bootlickey" for you.

 

Love,

 

Malc.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

11/29/12 12:39:19 PM#19

Minnies where mostly just really good at maneuverability and engagement control. It wasn't that you where winning so much fights with minmatar, it was more that you where loosing so few because you could always disengage and fly away(vagabonds going easily over 8km/s etc).

Minnies speed advantage had been declining for years, what with the nano nerf, scrams turning off MWDs and force recons webbing/scamming out to 40+km on a covert ops capable T2 cruiser hull ... That left minnies with good tracking guns with extreme falloff and fair damage, still arguable the most PvP centrish race, but the days where there where roaming gangs just made out of minnie ships where over. 

These days minmatar lives of the strenghts of a select few good ships that have just the perfect slot layout. For example the hurricane:

Spare highslots for utility after fitting full guns? *CHECK*

4 medslots for speedmod, web, scram and injector? *CECK*

6 lowslots with PG to spare for a heavy plated setup with local rep and damagemods? *CHECK*

 

Its the perfect mix of dps, utility and tank for either solo work or a a small - medium mixed gang. Thats not minnie being awesome, thats just a very good ship design that happens to be minmatar. Also the 720mm arties are absolutely gorgeous for medium+ gangs because the high alpha value with decent tracking of them combined with the short TTL(time to live) of focus fired targets mean maximum damage application.

 

What this rebalance will do imho is making more ships to be like the hurricane, i.e. actually giving them the slots/stats to do their job(not to mention giving them a purpose besides "fly me till you can afford the next tier thats better than me in every way, which means about 10 mins of missions and 2 hours of training"). Actually im thinking of trying RvB just because of these changes, im sure it will be a blast flying these new ships.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

11/30/12 6:39:32 AM#20


Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Gdemami  

Originally posted by Malcanis   Lol yeah OK, funny how it's only you that seems to be talking about "winmatar" with respect to the frigates. Everyone else is pretty keen on everything but.
  Yet, Rifter is the most flown frigate for years and by a large margin. Killboard stats are very clear what races and weapon platforms are preferred. There is nothing to discuss. You can lick CCP's boots as much as you want or you can play "I am bittervet from 3rd party forums that is l33t and knows it all" card but that won't change facts about the game.
OK now you're just making a fool of yourself.. The T1 frigate range has just been completely and massively reworked. It's completely irrelevent what happened over the last few years, because balance conditions are totally different now.

And FYI Minmatar were widely considered the gimp race until the projectile ammo / tracking enhancer buff which was, IIRC in Dominion, 2 years ago. Not 5.

 

So if you want to talk "facts about the game" make sure you've got them right (maybe try logging in to check them?) before you walk into a wall like that.

Hope these independently verifiable data aren't too "bootlickey" for you.

 

Love,

 

Malc.


Oh dear...


So let's "easily verify" those data and take a look at recent killboard stats - RvB as a representative of T1 frig warfare.

Total 85 frig kills for both factions.


Let's get only the top ship types:

Punisher 12
Merlin 14
Rifter 24
Incursus 8


So Rifter makes it for almost same amount used as Merlin and Punisher together and you gotta wonder how many of those Punishers have AC fitted. Gallente as usual comes at short end of the stick.

Same story was before unneeded projectile buff, with AC and Rifters dominating rvb killboards. Projectiles were never "gimp" weapons. They were balanced and very popular.

And for long term stats?

Since 21/9/2009 til today:

200mm AutoCannon II 24413
150mm Light AutoCannon II 23802
Light Neutron Blaster II 16078
Light Ion Blaster II 11748
Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile 11367
Medium Pulse Laser II 11207
Dual Light Pulse Laser II 11080
Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket 9696
150mm Light AutoCannon I 9243
Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket 7952
150mm Railgun II 6653


40% of weapons used goes towards projectile platform in lifetime of rvb killboard.
41% of recent kills goes towards Rifters in recent killboard(proly even more when counted in AC punishers and Merlins).

Completely whole new story :-)

Do I need to remind you the dev blog presenting weapons used since 2008/2007 or so portraying similar picture?


So yeah...


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