Originally posted by Creslin321

My problem with Eve (and Darkfall) wasn't the learning curve, it was the power curve.  After playing Eve for like two days, it became abundantly clear to me that I would never in a thousand years be able to even think about competing with most of the player base that has been there for a long time and has accumulated insane amounts of wealth and skill.

I would always be some stupid pleb miner or errand boy for some corp and well, that gameplay just doesn't appeal to me.

Don't get me wrong, I love progression in games, but at a certain point it gets ridiculous.  When you can just keep getting more powerful and more powerful over years and years of playing a game, it becomes literally impossible for a new person to catch up.

It takes like 2 - 3 weeks to be able to fly a blackbird effectively.  Blackbird is an amazing EWAR boat that could turn the tide in any gang fight.  It isn't that hard to specialize in EVE, long time players just have more specializations, they aren't necessarily better than you at your chosen specialization once you have support skills trained.

Originally posted by Creslin321

My problem with Eve (and Darkfall) wasn't the learning curve, it was the power curve.  After playing Eve for like two days, it became abundantly clear to me that I would never in a thousand years be able to even think about competing with most of the player base that has been there for a long time and has accumulated insane amounts of wealth and skill.

I would always be some stupid pleb miner or errand boy for some corp and well, that gameplay just doesn't appeal to me.

Don't get me wrong, I love progression in games, but at a certain point it gets ridiculous.  When you can just keep getting more powerful and more powerful over years and years of playing a game, it becomes literally impossible for a new person to catch up.

All of the most powerful people in eve didn't start on day 1.

I joined in the same year as one of the most powerful players in the game.

Whereas, I treated the game like a solo hobby to relax to in my spare time - he took the game in the opposite direction and placed himself on top of one of the largest alliances in the game.

The russians weren't there on day one but they've managed to push existing corps out of their sections of space.

The political map will always change over time and just because a corp has been long running and sits on top of a rich part of space doesn't mean they automatically get to keep it.

The Japanese have entered the game and everyday a few new people try the game so who knows how they will affect the map in a years time or 2 years time.  Will there be a Japanese block securing their own part of space from the hands of seasoned vets?  Will some young upstart convince people to follow him into glory?

I'll still be plodding along at my own pace...

Originally posted by SlaverHound

 

All of the most powerful people in eve didn't start on day 1.

I joined in the same year as one of the most powerful players in the game.

Whereas, I treated the game like a solo hobby to relax to in my spare time - he took the game in the opposite direction and placed himself on top of one of the largest alliances in the game.

The russians weren't there on day one but they've managed to push existing corps out of their sections of space.

The political map will always change over time and just because a corp has been long running and sits on top of a rich part of space doesn't mean they automatically get to keep it.

The Japanese have entered the game and everyday a few new people try the game so who knows how they will affect the map in a years time or 2 years time.  Will there be a Japanese block securing their own part of space from the hands of seasoned vets?  Will some young upstart convince people to follow him into glory?

I'll still be plodding along at my own pace...

I really like what you said here in the highlights.   

It's become such a chore to constantly try to explain EVE to discouraged players.   Mostly because there's no one area of the game to explain that will shed light on the other parts.    The main focal point that new players should concentrate on is what they want to ultimately accomplish on EVE.   

1. Do you want to be rich and powerful and in a position to direct and make decisions and give orders to other players?

2. Do you want to simply be a combat pilot and blow stuff up?

     a) if you do, there's a whole branch of options to decide on, including what kind of combat you want to take part in.   i.e.     small fast ships with low dmg, or big slow ships with high dmg (and everything outside/inbetween)

3. Do you want to be a crafter/industrialist?   [pretty much everything in EVE is crafted by SOMEONE... do you want to be one of those someones that help build the world of New Eden?]

4.  Do you want to explore and find rare locations and enemies?

5.  Do you want to scam people and use your brain instead of guns to make a name for yourself in new eden? 

6.  Do you want to grief people?  Do you want to help people?  Do you want to teach people? Do you want to manipulate them?

7.  Are you a hoarder? collector?  do you want to acquire all the loot you can find? Do you like having a mass warehouse full of artifacts that are rare and sought after?  Do you link fond/bad memories and expierences with items you've acquired over time?

8.  Do you want to play by yourself? Do you want to play with a small group of people? Do you want to play in a large Corporation/Alliance?   Do you like the feel of being a lonewolf, or would you rather have a large fleet you can fly with?   Or perhaps smaller "packs" of ships together?  

These are the more important questions one should ask themself when trying to get into EVE.    It's not about "oh man, it's gonna take me X amount of time before I can compete" ---  You have to first know what you want and if there is any competition to achieve it.   Then, if there is competition, you simply have to know what kind it is, and what weakness they have.     The first few weeks - months of EVE is learning the game systems, terms, rules, controls, and UI.     Once you have that down, it becomes second nature, and you can start to focus on your goals.    Almost all goals (at least the ones I listed) can be attained roughly soon after creating your character, assuming you're quick to learn the game (doubtful)  and the skillpoints that characters train don't decide much other than the amount of choices they have on which role to play currently.   

Prime example: 

2003 player with 100mill SP can choose to fly almost any ship, but at the moment, they are flying a Cruiser class close-range gunship.

2010 player with 20mill SP can choose to fly only 1 or 2 ships, but at the moment, they are flying a Cruiser class close-range gunship.     

Both players potentially have the same "skillpoints" in the sections that effect the ships they are currently flying, so, their guns will hit at the same amount of damage (assuming they have the same fitting/loadout/"gear") --    So, what really matters is not skillpoints, and not "who's played longer" but rather, who makes the better decisions in combat.  

It takes a long time to realize this kind of thing.   It took me forever to figure out why I sucked at PVP.   But, now that I consider myself a seasoned player, I tell you that almost everything that people say their problem is with EVE is misunderstood or flat out WRONG.     

This whole "i'll never catch up" mentality is ludicrous and needs to stop being uttered as a response to why someone quit EVE.        Better said:   "I quit EVE because I don't like research, learning, math, sci-fi, spaceships, creativity, tactics, planning, or reading in general, therefor, I couldn't understand the concept that I don't have to CATCH UP to anyone."

Originally posted by gimmesome

This whole "i'll never catch up" mentality is ludicrous and needs to stop being uttered as a response to why someone quit EVE.        Better said:   "I quit EVE because I don't like research, learning, math, sci-fi, spaceships, creativity, tactics, planning, or reading in general, therefor, I couldn't understand the concept that I don't have to CATCH UP to anyone."

Great post but be prepared to be flamed to no end by people who refuse to accept that.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by gimmesome

This whole "i'll never catch up" mentality is ludicrous and needs to stop being uttered as a response to why someone quit EVE.        Better said:   "I quit EVE because I don't like research, learning, math, sci-fi, spaceships, creativity, tactics, planning, or reading in general, therefor, I couldn't understand the concept that I don't have to CATCH UP to anyone."

Great post but be prepared to be flamed to no end by people who refuse to accept that.

always...  ;-)

Originally posted by Creslin321

I'm sure knowledge is important, but I honestly don't see how becoming "competitive" in Eve doesn't involve a pretty long grind..  Even if I knew exactly what to do in Eve, I really don't think I could get around having to mine or do some other tedious task for days upon days before I could even think about playing with the "big boys."  And even then...I would be a relatively small fish in a big pond and never really be able to compete with the "real" big boys.  You also have to consider that anyone in Eve who is remotely competitive probably has the same knowledge you do.

Contrast this with Starcraft 2 where I bought the game, watched a lot of pro-gamer replays to learn strategy, practiced, and then made it to diamond league in like 2 weeks.  This is a game where knowledge and skill make the difference.

I guess my problem is that when a game is essentially about "competition and dominance" like Eve is, I don't want to be forced into a losing role just by lack of grinding.  I LOVE the sandbox concept, but I hate how it's always about big fish eating smaller fish.

Sorry but LOL. That had to be said.

So you don't know what to do, but you know that you won't be able to compete against others? And how long do you have to mine to compete against the Goonswarm CEO? How long does he mine?

What do you have to grind in Eve anyway?

Have you actually played Eve or do you just yet know what the game is about? It's pretty funny how most of the self-appointed sandbox lovers on this site wouldn't recognize a true sandbox if it was (and is) dancing on their noses.

I started Eve again a month ago. Got 8 billion ISK atm and less than 1m skillpoints. So, excuse me now, I'll compete against others some more, while you sit here crying about how that's impossible.

In the last 2 years I tried to play and understand EVE for like 5 times. Never managed to pass a max. 1 week playtime, My main problem was the horrible UI and the "right click on everything" system. Find your target in the oveview panel, right click and choose and action from the menu... this was way too much for my limited patience. Was like playing in excel or CAD.

But after 6 years of  WoW, Rift and other "classic" mmo's I just had enough of  the same old repetitive content, grind system, not to mention that all these games are dumbed down to a retard level, there is nothing challenging left and every mmo is turned into a theme park/money making industry.

So I decided to give EVE another try, but this time with full focus on trying to understand and like the game. And was damn hard, really hard! Every single day I was about to quit and uninstall the game, the UI and the countles right clicks were driving me crazy. But after almost 2 week of "forced" play, things started to change as I realised the sandbox part and how stuff works. And I also discovered the market battle, maybe the most intensive battle I ever saw in a mmo. The 3th week I subbed and now I'm completely adicted to the game.

It's a damn hardcore game and no wonder that none can help you understand it, the game is just too complex to explain how stuff works.. you have to play and learn it by yourself through countless trial and errors. Best feature is that everything is player driven, it's a real sandbox game! A harsh universe where you can't trust to anybody, where you have to fight really hard to survive and be competitive. Just passing through a low/null sec area with my cargo full with goods I feel the blood pumping at max because you never know where or when you will be ganked and all your stuff, that required such a hard work to make it, will gone in a second.

All I can hope is that EVE will never change and will never be turned into a theme park. EVE is hard and that's the real beauty in this game. I just feel sorry for myself by being dumb and waisting so much time in WoW and other clones instead of playing EVE :/ 

Originally posted by Poster07

In the last 2 years I tried to play and understand EVE for like 5 times. Never managed to pass a max. 1 week playtime, My main problem was the horrible UI and the "right click on everything" system. Find your target in the oveview panel, right click and choose and action from the menu... this was way too much for my limited patience. Was like playing in excel or CAD.

 

But after 6 years of  WoW, Rift and other "classic" mmo's I just had enough of  the same old repetitive content, grind system, not to mention that all these games are dumbed down to a retard level, there is nothing challenging left and every mmo is turned into a theme park/money making industry.

 

So I decided to give EVE another try, but this time with full focus on trying to understand and like the game. And was damn hard, really hard! Every single day I was about to quit and uninstall the game, the UI and the countles right clicks were driving me crazy. But after almost 2 week of "forced" play, things started to change as I realised the sandbox part and how stuff works. And I also discovered the market battle, maybe the most intensive battle I ever saw in a mmo. The 3th week I subbed and now I'm completely adicted to the game.

 

It's a damn hardcore game and no wonder that none can help you understand it, the game is just too complex to explain how stuff works.. you have to play and learn it by yourself through countless trial and errors. Best feature is that everything is player driven, it's a real sandbox game! A harsh universe where you can't trust to anybody, where you have to fight really hard to survive and be competitive. Just passing through a low/null sec area with my cargo full with goods I feel the blood pumping at max because you never know where or when you will be ganked and all your stuff, that required such a hard work to make it, will gone in a second.

 

All I can hope is that EVE will never change and will never be turned into a theme park. EVE is hard and that's the real beauty in this game. I just feel sorry for myself by being dumb and waisting so much time in WoW and other clones instead of playing EVE :/ 

This pretty much sums up my experience. Tried the game about 5 times and finally got into it on the last attempt. I forced a sub - meanwhile I got into a fantastic nullsec Corp part of a fantastic alliance.

About a year and a half later I've taken over regions, failscaded alliances, killed super carriers, killed titans, murdered mining operations, wrecked wormhole operations, bombed entire fleets with a stealth bombing wing, done blackops, hotdrops - Oh the hotdrops, large scale 1000+ pvp, small scale pvp, sov defense - helped defend against the biggest super capital fleet the game has ever seen which ended with us camping their super capitals 24/7 with no less than 200-300 people at all times.. etc.

I've never mined and I've never done high-sec missions - I've never used a spreadsheet. I own a nice fleet of ships and have accumulated a decent amount of wealth. I have a handful of deaths, most of which are the result of our fleets going all in - I've never really been ganked.

This bs that you can't start now and catch up to people is so wrong that I can't believe it still floats around.

My advice is to join a solid corp/alliance. I would recommend trying to get into nullsec, it completely changed the game for me. If the corp is willing to accept you on the spot, then you probably don't want to be in that corp.

Been playing for 2 months now. I think EVEs problem is the difficulty to get an overall picture. Let's say I played WoW, then I switch to generic fantasy mmorpg X. It's the same, I have area A,B and C then I have dungeon 1,2 and 3. Yes it might be implemented slightly different but the general concept is the same, I pretty much know what to do and why.

In EVE there are so many paths that it is hard for a newcomer to separate optional and fun to do from "mandatory" and how some things affect others. On top of that every system looks the same so a new player thinks "is this all there is to do?"

This is because it's hard to "zoom out" and get an overall picture of the EVE universe and thus you easily get bored of the limited view you have and think there is nothing else to do. I don't know if it makes sense but there it is.

That makes sense but for someone like me that has done MMORPGS for so long, not being able to relate the game to anything else was refreshing. I wasn't looking for the same gimmick with a new name like every other mmo out there has. I relished actually feeling like a newbie for once instead of just trying to learn the different names for the same things.

I do agree that it can be demoralizing as a newbie when you simply can't grasp the extent of activities, roles, etc that you can take part in. The tutorials are supposed to give you an example but it really doesn't even scrape the surface.

The best thing you can do as a complete newb is join EVE University - They do an excellent job of presenting what eve has to offer and setting you off on the path to participate in said activities.

EVE University did an amazing job helping me out when I first started. I never continued though but they were a great bunch of helpful people

Originally posted by Poster07

In the last 2 years I tried to play and understand EVE for like 5 times. Never managed to pass a max. 1 week playtime, My main problem was the horrible UI and the "right click on everything" system. Find your target in the oveview panel, right click and choose and action from the menu... this was way too much for my limited patience. Was like playing in excel or CAD.

Actually EVE is one of the few games with a decent UI that offers enough information so it is actually helpful. Unles by "horrible UI" people understand it's not the 2-3 bars UI where you dump a few action buttons and keep mashing them. True, I am one of the people that rarely uses a mouse and does most things using a keyboard.

So, I liked EVE's UI. Plus, with so many things in the UI it really feels like you are doing something not simply going to a playfield, kill a few pink-spotted piglets and come back for your reward.

But after 6 years of  WoW, Rift and other "classic" mmo's I just had enough of  the same old repetitive content, grind system, not to mention that all these games are dumbed down to a retard level, there is nothing challenging left and every mmo is turned into a theme park/money making industry.

 True, I can't stomach fantasy games so, since 2004, I mainly played 2 games: EVE and Anarchy Online. Both had interesting features on their own added to the SciFi theme.

So I decided to give EVE another try, but this time with full focus on trying to understand and like the game. And was damn hard, really hard! Every single day I was about to quit and uninstall the game, the UI and the countles right clicks were driving me crazy. But after almost 2 week of "forced" play, things started to change as I realised the sandbox part and how stuff works. And I also discovered the market battle, maybe the most intensive battle I ever saw in a mmo. The 3th week I subbed and now I'm completely adicted to the game.

 EVE is not that hard and never was that hard. Unless you were the kind of player that barely logged in the game and starts asking "where is the PVP". EVE is simply a game of perspective and what you want to do. You do A, so you can do B that will enable you to get to point C from where you can go to X, Y and Z. For a new or casual player the mechanics are actully relatively simple.

Sure, it gets more complicated when you start with transversal and applying optimal DPS and so on. But to start with, EVE is rather simple and you actually discover its complexity as you advance through the game.

It's a damn hardcore game and no wonder that none can help you understand it, the game is just too complex to explain how stuff works.. you have to play and learn it by yourself through countless trial and errors. Best feature is that everything is player driven, it's a real sandbox game! A harsh universe where you can't trust to anybody, where you have to fight really hard to survive and be competitive. Just passing through a low/null sec area with my cargo full with goods I feel the blood pumping at max because you never know where or when you will be ganked and all your stuff, that required such a hard work to make it, will gone in a second.

EVE is not hardcore. It just takes patience and determination. Of course, pigheadedness helps quite a lot. And then there's that ship called "Friendship". Best thing you can acquire in-game. Low is dangerous, null as well from a certain point of view. But nothing that a decent player can't survive.

EVE is quite alright for people that can think and plan ahead. The "I want it now" or "where's my new spell" people will always be disappointed by EVE.

However, EVE is not a game for sour loosers that get angry from being killed in the "classic" battleground. Those are the guys throwing best tantrums. If one's the kind of person to get attached to his "avatar" (aka ship), EVE is the worst possible game especially if he's looking for PVP. Still, the tears :))

All I can hope is that EVE will never change and will never be turned into a theme park. EVE is hard and that's the real beauty in this game. I just feel sorry for myself by being dumb and waisting so much time in WoW and other clones instead of playing EVE :/ 

Originally posted by Robokapp

op scanning ith 3 probes is ... very difficult. scan with 5, its trivial.

 

you have to be ultra-pro to scan with 3. there's no reason to. use 5.

I take it you skipped over my reply earlier. If the site you're scanning is not an ultra-basic site, it is IMPOSSIBLE to lock down with only three probes. You need at least 4 to get quadrangulation; the probes give distance-only measurement and you absolutely must have four separate distance measurements to lock down a point in three dimensional space.

I thought so too. I played eve once, and hated combat. For some reason I wanted to try it again and fell in love with the whole concept of eve. I even enjoy combat now. 

Tips;

• Join Help Channel (F12 > Join Channel)
• Find a newplayer corporation.
• http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ - Here's a broken down, click-able list of all the things you can do in EvE.
• http://eve-central.com/home/market.html - EvE Market site, can look up buy and sell costs of items in selected or entire regions.
• http://www.battleclinic.com/ - a Killboard site along with top-rated loadouts for ships.
• http://evemon.battleclinic.com/ - EveMon, an application that lets you plan your character's training queue, can find items and required skills, ships and recommended skills for the ships, linked to battleclinic's loadouts, mineral chart to determine the cost of minerals in a spreadsheet form. This is basically a must for probably all eve players.