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EVE Online Forum » Jita (General) » Is Eve pay to win?

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139 posts found
  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

7/06/13 3:12:06 AM#121
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Nitth So what about that guy that has the skills and buys an endless supply of ships for his corp war?
You still only fly one at a time, so for a fight it doesn't give you an advantage. But the PLEX bought you time though, because you don't have to run missions or any other ingame activity to earn back isk if you lose the ship. 
  But looking at it by scale, Wars could be won when competitors have more ships for fodder.
 

 

That would get insanely expensive very quickly. Look at last night's battle between the CFC and the HBC: http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=21564

Each of those Rokhs costs 300M ISK. Megas are about the same. Carriers are 2 bill or more. It would cost thousands of dollars to PLEX the replacements for those ships, and that's just one battle in the war.

In the reality of the game, EVE's "winners" buy PLEX for ISK to save money, they don't buy PLEX for money to sell for ISK.


 

Thats not the issue here, The issue is: "Does plex provide mechanism to get an advantage."

 

Does paying for a second account provide a mechanism to get an advantage?

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

7/06/13 5:40:45 AM#122

Think about what happens with the PLEX transaction. The originating player buys a GTC from CCP or some other retailer and redeems it into 2 PLEX. At this point CCP count their product obligation as fulfilled; the player has receive what he has paid for, regardless of what happens to it in the future. So far, this is pretty much identical to any other MT: gief publisher monies = can haz in-game itemz. But what can you actually do with your PLEX?

Well first you can add it on to your own account, which enables you to play the game for another 30 days. Of course this isn't really a MT in any way that people care about, just a slightly roundabout way to pay a subscription, but I presume we can agree that this promotes gameplay, insofar as it means that the original purchaser will play EVE for +30 days.

Secondly, you can sell it to another player for ISK. This is where it gets interesting, and where it starts to look like RMT and so forth. The most important difference is that the ISK exchange is between two players, not between a player and CCP. This sounds too obvious and trivial to be worth mentioning, but so many people don't seem to understand how important this subtle difference is. Player A sells a PLEX to player B for 500M ISK. (In and of itself, this is a player interaction just like any other market trade, BTW) The amount of ISK ingame stays the same. The ISK that player A receives, he receives apparently without doing any work for it, but the important thing is that work was done for that ISK. So player B had to do missions, convert LP, play the Jita market, risk his ship ratting, run a research POS and sell BPCs or do whatever other activity he engaged in to raise that 500M ISK. If Player A wasn't lazy or time-restricted or whatever other reason he'd rather pay $17.50 than make 500M for himself, he might have done any or all of those activities. As it is, Player B did them on his behalf, but those activities still had to take place, with all the normal implications for wider interaction with the EVE economy and community. To the rest of EVE there is no functional difference between player A selling a PLEX to player B, and player A using his ISK making alt A2 to make 400M.

Additionally, the value received is determined directly by player supply and demand. The amount of ISK you can get for your $17.50 is always dynamically set to exactly what the EVE playerbase as a whole thinks it should be. If CCP sold ISK directly, they'd pick a value (and you can bet your ass it would be hilariously wrong) and stick to it .

Conversely, consider what would happen if Player A was simply able to buy ISK directly from CCP then all that activity would not take place. In addition, it is quite possible that Player B simply wouldn't be playing, as for many people, being able to play for free is all that keeps them subscribed. Even if they kept their mains going, the number of "ISK making alts" would plummet, as the Player B's partly have them to pay for PLEX. So Player C cant buy his faction ammo from B, sell his stuff at Jita to B, gank B's ratting Drake or do whatever other interaction might take place, or at least has less opportunity to do so. Player interaction is reduced, player population is reduced, gameplay is reduced.

Additionally, because the amount of ISK you can buy is limited by the amount of ISK that other players are willing to spend on PLEX, there's a hard cap on how much ISK you can buy this way. It's a pretty high cap, but it's there. If CCP sold ISK directly, they'd sell it at the rate which maximised the amount of money people give them, which obviously means that they'd have every incentive to sell it for ever cheaper prices, since they can spawn as much as they want for free. Hello galloping inflation!

So yes, PLEX allow people to "buy advantage". But it does it in a very very clever way, and it's an MT that actually supports and enhances the game rather than stealing gameplay to provide pure profit to CCP.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Broverpowerd

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/13
Posts: 35

7/06/13 5:52:30 AM#123

Is EVE pay to win? Experiment!

1) Spend $2,500 cash on plex

2)Exchange plex for ISK

3) Buy high end character/ships

4)Fly out into Nullsec/lowsec

Please report your findings, we are all very interested to see if you won or not. P.S., if you intend of transporting the $2,500 in PLEX from one station to another, please let me know your character name, I would like to help you "win" :-p

  Quazal.A

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 422

7/07/13 6:28:26 AM#124
Originally posted by Malcanis


Secondly, you can sell it to another player for ISK. This is where it gets interesting, and where it starts to look like RMT and so forth. The most important difference is that the ISK exchange is between two players, not between a player and CCP. This sounds too obvious and trivial to be worth mentioning, but so many people don't seem to understand how important this subtle difference is. Player A sells a PLEX to player B for 500M ISK. (In and of itself, this is a player interaction just like any other market trade, BTW) The amount of ISK ingame stays the same. The ISK that player A receives, he receives apparently without doing any work for it, but the important thing is that work was done for that ISK. So player B had to do missions, convert LP, play the Jita market, risk his ship ratting, run a research POS and sell BPCs or do whatever other activity he engaged in to raise that 500M ISK. If Player A wasn't lazy or time-restricted or whatever other reason he'd rather pay $17.50 than make 500M for himself, he might have done any or all of those activities. As it is, Player B did them on his behalf, but those activities still had to take place, with all the normal implications for wider interaction with the EVE economy and community. To the rest of EVE there is no functional difference between player A selling a PLEX to player B, and player A using his ISK making alt A2 to make 400M.

I like what you said, but its just a small comment - which for me slightly reinforces what your saying

But in fact the isk in game doesn't stay the same it actually goes down!. Your forgetting Taxes, might not be a lot, but even by CCP own admission market/contract taxes are the largest isk sink in game :)

This 'down' of isk can be anything from 1.5% > 3% depending on various skills, so a fair bit of isk :) thats all :)

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Ahnog

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 232

7/07/13 7:24:18 AM#125
Eve is not pay to win. Plex is a way to play to pay.

Ahnog

Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.

http://www.ahnog.us

  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

7/07/13 8:17:27 AM#126

I have nothing new to say here that hasn't been said, but i'll cast my vote with this message.

I could spend thousands of dollars buying my wife (who has never played EvE) a new character and a whole fleet of battleships.

I guarantee she would lose every ship and I can absolutely 100% verify beyond any doubt that the events following my expenditure would not be considered a win by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/07/13 8:25:19 AM#127
Originally posted by Broverpowerd

Is EVE pay to win? Experiment!

1) Spend $2,500 cash on plex

2)Exchange plex for ISK

3) Buy high end character/ships

4)Fly out into Nullsec/lowsec

Please report your findings, we are all very interested to see if you won or not. P.S., if you intend of transporting the $2,500 in PLEX from one station to another, please let me know your character name, I would like to help you "win" :-p

i'll give you a hand too...we can help shorten your trip considerably.

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2360

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

7/07/13 5:29:08 PM#128
Originally posted by Broverpowerd

Is EVE pay to win? Experiment!

1) Spend $2,500 cash on plex

2)Exchange plex for ISK

3) Buy high end character/ships

4)Fly out into Nullsec/lowsec

Please report your findings, we are all very interested to see if you won or not. P.S., if you intend of transporting the $2,500 in PLEX from one station to another, please let me know your character name, I would like to help you "win" :-p

One of my most funny Eve moments was when about four of us in BC's ran into a dread in an asteroid belt in low sec.  No joke, he was ratting, shooting at a frig size rat with a cap size weapon probably wondering why he was missing.  The kill mail showed that he had only 1 gun fit and nothing else.

He later told us that he bought the character recently and had only been playing a few weeks.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  hfztt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 689

7/07/13 5:37:09 PM#129
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing...

Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.

Pay2Win is when you can buy stuff for RL cash that is better than what can be gained in the game by normal means.

So no.

  Quazal.A

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 422

7/07/13 6:01:09 PM#130

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18599712

 

that is simply why Eve is not p2w

 

in rough tterms thats about $350 give or take gone...

You can have all the money in the world but if your a dickhead your going to be skint very very soon in eve

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

7/07/13 6:48:26 PM#131
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Broverpowerd

Is EVE pay to win? Experiment!

1) Spend $2,500 cash on plex

2)Exchange plex for ISK

3) Buy high end character/ships

4)Fly out into Nullsec/lowsec

Please report your findings, we are all very interested to see if you won or not. P.S., if you intend of transporting the $2,500 in PLEX from one station to another, please let me know your character name, I would like to help you "win" :-p

One of my most funny Eve moments was when about four of us in BC's ran into a dread in an asteroid belt in low sec.  No joke, he was ratting, shooting at a frig size rat with a cap size weapon probably wondering why he was missing.  The kill mail showed that he had only 1 gun fit and nothing else.

He later told us that he bought the character recently and had only been playing a few weeks.

 

But wait that's not possible I am constantly told that all that matters is time played = SP = win

 

Now I are confuzzled :(

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3836

7/07/13 7:17:59 PM#132
Nope experience > isk and skill. Buying a char in eve you do not have former and will lose latter. In other mmorgs, you buy a char, you have that gear advantage regardless.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (10000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (600 runemaster/Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR

  LeGrosGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 214

7/07/13 7:24:50 PM#133
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing...

Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.

 EVE-Online is all about skills , no matter how rich you are , if you play poorly, the ISK will disappear rather quickly.  I used to mine 6-7 PLEX's worth a month back in the day. If you buy PLEX for ISK , then you are clearly doing something wrong. Now popping a freight ship carrying over 20bil ISK in PLEX to then sale them for profit, now THAT'S smart! :)

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

7/09/13 3:31:22 PM#134
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Nope experience > isk and skill. Buying a char in eve you do not have former and will lose latter. In other mmorgs, you buy a char, you have that gear advantage regardless.

 

*cough* there was some sarcasm there that you missed ^^

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Jigfrog

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 6

7/09/13 8:35:49 PM#135
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Actually you are completely incorrect.  If anything, the guy who spends RL money to buy big expensive ships are only making the PVPer happy when they blow you up.  If anything it could be called "pay to produce my own tears".  There is absolutely no advantage to buying ISK in game by selling PLEX.  It merely saves you some time making the ISK in-game.

  Jigfrog

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 6

7/09/13 8:40:02 PM#136
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

Correct, no advantage whatsoever.  All you accomplish is being made fun of for being a newbie when you get that big expensive decked out ship blown up to a small 5 frigate gang.  Expensive decked out ships mean absolutely nothing.  Someone will see it and mark you as an easy target, then set up a trap.  It's far wiser to fly cheap.

 

  Jigfrog

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 6

7/09/13 10:15:24 PM#137
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Broverpowerd

Is EVE pay to win? Experiment!

1) Spend $2,500 cash on plex

2)Exchange plex for ISK

3) Buy high end character/ships

4)Fly out into Nullsec/lowsec

Please report your findings, we are all very interested to see if you won or not. P.S., if you intend of transporting the $2,500 in PLEX from one station to another, please let me know your character name, I would like to help you "win" :-p

One of my most funny Eve moments was when about four of us in BC's ran into a dread in an asteroid belt in low sec.  No joke, he was ratting, shooting at a frig size rat with a cap size weapon probably wondering why he was missing.  The kill mail showed that he had only 1 gun fit and nothing else.

He later told us that he bought the character recently and had only been playing a few weeks.

 

But wait that's not possible I am constantly told that all that matters is time played = SP = win

 

Now I are confuzzled :(

No, time played = SP != win.  Total newbies with jackshit skillpts can still "win".  Simply having a character with a lot of skillpoints isn't going to win anything for you if you don't have the "know how" to fly correctly and pick your fights wisely.

  Starbuck1771

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/06
Posts: 292

7/10/13 2:00:01 AM#138
Originally posted by evilized

why not actually play the game before making threads like this? all questions would be answered within the first 15 minutes of gameplay.

 

and there is a free trial afaik.

If you read my earlier replys you would know I have played the game. Let me guess your a read the first page then skip to the back of the book type of guy.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5504

7/10/13 2:08:14 AM#139
Originally posted by Fligflog
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

Correct, no advantage whatsoever.  All you accomplish is being made fun of for being a newbie when you get that big expensive decked out ship blown up to a small 5 frigate gang.  Expensive decked out ships mean absolutely nothing.  Someone will see it and mark you as an easy target, then set up a trap.  It's far wiser to fly cheap.

 

The Killboards are filled with people who thought big expensive ships with expensive modules meant they could pwn. Eve is a game populated by players that really do enjoy blowing things up, and painting a 'im a noob in a big ship' target on yourself is a great way to make someone elses day

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