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EVE Online Forum » Jita (General) » I have been a big opponent of this game for years but...

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52 posts found
  Uhwop

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1698

11/30/12 12:04:08 PM#21

Some of you are overstating the frigate changes.  The only thing they did that will have any significant impact is turn the mining frigates into logi ones so that low skill point pilots can try out logistics without investing the skill points and length of time it's currently required to even see if you'll like it.  

 

For those that don't really understand:  it's like rolling a priest in another mmo because you want to try your hand at healing, but you have to play for 3 months before you can actually heal instead of healing from level 1 to get a feel for it.  CCP is making it possible to be a healer at level 1 instead of having to wait the 3 months, basically.  

Aside from that we get one new mining frigate, but that's not new.  I think the op made the statement that this should have been in the game from the beginning; they were.  What do you think the mining frigates that are being changed to logi frigates?  Instead of 4 mining frigates there will only be one.  The mining frigate you'll see is new, but not mining frigates are not.  

The bounty system is a double edged sword.  It'll be nice for corps, and no better then the current system we least have.  

The flag changes (crimewatch) is a nerf to ganking and pirating.  

There's some good stuff coming but not a lot.  Not enough to be an expansion and definitely not "new" content; which a lot of us are getting a little annoyed at.   It's mostly tweaks; some of which ardently really needed.  Explosions?  Sounds?  UI elements changed?  

Meanwhile they're altering the order and priority in which NPC'S will attack players, but those npc's are still as pathetic as ever; still no real improvement in the difficulty of the majority of pve content, which is a joke.   They keep making the largest part if the game world safer in a game the depends on people getting blown up.  

 

Most of what they're doing you expect from any MMO; it's what isn't getting done that's starting to get to people.  Like the shelving of new content instead of the development of new content, in favor of just reskinning the predicting stuff for the last 2 or 3 years now.  While other large aspects of the game don't get touched, like industry, miming, pos's, null sec.  

Yay, new bounty system and flagging.  While other parts of the game, that even CCP admitted are broken go untouched.  

 

Edit:  I apologize for the horrible grammar presented in this post.  My nerves are bothering me pretty bad the past couple of days, and it's really hard to type.  I'm not going to fix it either.  I laughed when I read it; it's pretty bad. 

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/01/12 8:27:25 AM#22
Originally posted by Uhwop

Some of you are overstating the frigate changes.  The only thing they did that will have any significant impact is turn the mining frigates into logi ones so that low skill point pilots can try out logistics without investing the skill points and length of time it's currently required to even see if you'll like it.  

 

For those that don't really understand:  it's like rolling a priest in another mmo because you want to try your hand at healing, but you have to play for 3 months before you can actually heal instead of healing from level 1 to get a feel for it.  CCP is making it possible to be a healer at level 1 instead of having to wait the 3 months, basically.  

Aside from that we get one new mining frigate, but that's not new.  I think the op made the statement that this should have been in the game from the beginning; they were.  What do you think the mining frigates that are being changed to logi frigates?  Instead of 4 mining frigates there will only be one.  The mining frigate you'll see is new, but not mining frigates are not.  

The bounty system is a double edged sword.  It'll be nice for corps, and no better then the current system we least have.  

The flag changes (crimewatch) is a nerf to ganking and pirating.  

There's some good stuff coming but not a lot.  Not enough to be an expansion and definitely not "new" content; which a lot of us are getting a little annoyed at.   It's mostly tweaks; some of which ardently really needed.  Explosions?  Sounds?  UI elements changed?  

Meanwhile they're altering the order and priority in which NPC'S will attack players, but those npc's are still as pathetic as ever; still no real improvement in the difficulty of the majority of pve content, which is a joke.   They keep making the largest part if the game world safer in a game the depends on people getting blown up.  

 

Most of what they're doing you expect from any MMO; it's what isn't getting done that's starting to get to people.  Like the shelving of new content instead of the development of new content, in favor of just reskinning the predicting stuff for the last 2 or 3 years now.  While other large aspects of the game don't get touched, like industry, miming, pos's, null sec.  

Yay, new bounty system and flagging.  While other parts of the game, that even CCP admitted are broken go untouched.  

 

Edit:  I apologize for the horrible grammar presented in this post.  My nerves are bothering me pretty bad the past couple of days, and it's really hard to type.  I'm not going to fix it either.  I laughed when I read it; it's pretty bad. 

I don't think you are very well informed about the upcoming changes tbh. For example the upcoming crimewatch will come with a significant increase to pvp timers, which will also be renewed on ships caught after logoff. How can that be a nerf to pirating?

Also the ship changes extent well beyong just adding healers and a mining frigate, bonused ECM frigates as T1 are a huge deal. 4 T1 frigs won't kill a BS pilot that knows what he is doing fitting wise today, after the patch though that might very well be a permajammed, neuted BS pilot wondering wtf is going on(especially marauders).

Its nothing less, and yes nothing more, than bringing the full spectrum of EvE warfare right down to the T1 hulls. Every group tactic that was previously only possible for very highly skilled(as in with a lot of SPs) players, will now have a lower SP variant that can be used by new players.

Also a new player was previously just told to "fit tackle", cause that was all he could do. Even if the gang had HICs, ceptors, AFs you name it. Now you can tell people to bring ECM, TPs, TDs(which will work on missiles) and lots of other funny things. And that new player in his t1 frig has a very fair chance of locking down a enemy key ship like an rook or a abaddon, he won't just be(slightly, maybe, if every other tackle disconnects at the same time) useful, he will actually win you the engagement.

 

For me thats pretty big, cause i always disliked the nobrainer of telling new players(wether to EvE or to PvP) to go tackle something. Also we have far to many pilots in EvE who are not proficent in ewar, bringing more of it to t1 hulls is a very good thing.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7498

12/01/12 8:40:13 AM#23


Originally posted by Rocketeer

And that new player in his t1 frig has a very fair chance of locking down a enemy key ship like an rook or a abaddon


What would be a point of ewar T2 frigs, and cruisers then if T1 frig can do the same job?

I think you are expecting too much...

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/01/12 10:04:01 AM#24
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

 

And that new player in his t1 frig has a very fair chance of locking down a enemy key ship like an rook or a abaddon


 

What would be a point of ewar T2 frigs, and cruisers then if T1 frig can do the same job?

I think you are expecting too much...

Nope. The point is T2 is better but has horrible cost efficency.

And thats the whole point of EvE, a ECM module on a T1 frig ist just as strong as a ECM module on a T2 BS. For example a griffin with my crappy skills has about a 50% chance of locking down a kronos for 20 sec, per module. Thats base, without any modules/rigs/implants boosting it.

If i flew a rook instead, yes the chance would be better, about 60-70%, but then again i would also be primary in any kind of small warfare engagement because im sitting in a frail yet hittable t2 hull.

More T1 frigs that actually pose a threat outside of tackle is a major factor. Tackle places them inside neut range, meaning they get shut down easily. But a T1 frig sitting at 30 km and cutting your optimal range to a quarter on lets say an Legion or using ECM on your heavy hitter? God, thats real painful.

Example:

2 hacs, sacriledge and deimos fighting 2 BS. The hacs get aided by a new player in a impairor, ruining the BSs tracking to the point where they can't deal with the Hacs even webbed. Sacri and deimos attacking BS1, with sacri staying on BS2 to keep both tackled and webbed. The impairor stays away 30km from both BS.

Thats a horrible situation to be in for the BS. TDs on the Impairor are very strong(it gets up to a 50% bonus to them), and its pilot may be very young so not having caused alarm upon checking his info on in local(you wouldn't suspect a 1-2 month old char being a major issue in a fight between BS and Hacs). Currently such a situation would be ... unlikely since due to the tiering system a impairor has a 2/2/2 slot layout which is laughable since it means you have nothing in the meds if you want to run 2 TDs which the ship is meant for.

Probably not the best example, but im trying to show how a bonused t1 frigate can be a serious issue, not despite, but because its a t1 ship with a new pilot. Sure a curse would be alot better, but then again the 2 BS likely wouldn't have joined combat if it was 2 Hacs and a Curse they faced.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7498

12/01/12 10:22:54 AM#25


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Nope. The point is T2 is better but has horrible cost efficency..

You stated that T1 frig can permajam BS or rook. So I am asking how better T2 ships are supposed to be? Perma-permajam?

The major issue of frigates you seem not to be realizing is their limited slot layout. T1 frigs should not ever be able to permajam anything as you imply because that ability comes from slot layout and if T1 frigs could still achieve that, it would either make T2 and larger ships pointless or OP.

That pretty much demonstrates the issue in your example. If newbie in rookie ship can disable BS, what would specialized ships do?

See above - they would be either pointless or imbalanced.


As said, those things might look nice on paper but making them work is entirely different story...

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/01/12 1:06:30 PM#26
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Nope. The point is T2 is better but has horrible cost efficency..

 

You stated that T1 frig can permajam BS or rook. So I am asking how better T2 ships are supposed to be? Perma-permajam?

The major issue of frigates you seem not to be realizing is their limited slot layout. T1 frigs should not ever be able to permajam anything as you imply because that ability comes from slot layout and if T1 frigs could still achieve that, it would either make T2 and larger ships pointless or OP.

That pretty much demonstrates the issue in your example. If newbie in rookie ship can disable BS, what would specialized ships do?

See above - they would be either pointless or imbalanced.


As said, those things might look nice on paper but making them work is entirely different story...

 

He stated that they "have a fair chance" of doing so. Not quite the same thing my friend.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17627

12/01/12 1:13:37 PM#27
Originally posted by freejackmack

All right I expected more of a positive reaction to this patch then I see in this thread;

I think the initial reactions were to your typo in the first sentence. Change "opponent" to "proponent". You missed the "pr" while you were typing.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/01/12 5:28:32 PM#28

The differnce in strength between T1 and T2 EW ships is less than people think, its far below the jammer randomness for ecm. For example a rook with the wrong racial jammers will do worse than a blackbird with the right racial jammers. So its down to luck not only on the individual jams, but even in the way you fit your jammers. For example a rook fitting a hypothetical fitting of 2 caldari, 2 gallente, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr jammers facing a pure amarr gang will do worse than two t1 frigs that quickly changed to all amarr jams at their pos after getting the intel.

Or for another extreme example, imagine a rook getting damped by T1 frigs. He has the choice to:

1. Jam the frigs, but ECM has same duration as CD so he is not going to jam anything else.

2. Ignore the frigs and get literally ontop of the enemies he wants to jam, at which point he is risking his mobility due to webs and scrams.

 

And thats only one of the ways T1 frigates can be used to counter specialized EW ships like the rook, for another they can lock a rook and attempt a scram before the rook can do the same(frigs lock cruiser hulls faster than the reverse). And even if the rook gets a lock before due to range or something, he wouldn't really want to waste a scram on a T1 frigate while there is ANYTHING else on the field(its kinda hard to explain your gang that you didn't jam that megathron that was eating peoples faces because you where busy jamming a maulus or two).

Lastly while T2 ships will have a bit higher success rate, and 1-2 slots more dedicated to their EW, they are primary targets. A rook that fails to jam two BS will have two BS trying to kill him(and with pulse or ACs they have a fair chance at it even outside 24km). A T1 frigate that fails a jam ... yeah well if the BS can afford the time to go after that frig the fight is over anyway.

 

So is T2 just bad? In a way it is. This is an old discussion that came up before when the BCs where introduced, which gave and give HACs more than a good run for their money. T2 are niche ships, better than their direct T1 counterpart, but not necessarily better than their T1 role replacement.

A deimos is better than a thorax, but i wouldn't replace a deimos with a thorax, i would replace a deimos with a talos at which point the lines get blurry and it becomes highly situational which performs better.

So yeah a rook is better than a blackbird in theory. But the rook will be primary whereas the blackbird might not be(atleast not while there is a rook on the field :D), lacking the means to protect the rook in my gang, i might opt for the BB instead. Griffin even more so, never once have i been in a gang where a t1 frig has been called primary. But if said frigate is getting jams on your rook, which then ends up getting killed because he couldn't jam the mega in his face ... Its a tough call. Ironically depending on gangsize and makeup it might take longer to kill a t1 frigate than a t2 cruiser so its really situational. Would you want to trade a BS for a T1 frig?

The thing is, specialized EW T1 ships are mean because they combine the low priority of worthless ships with the high priority of dangerous tiebreakers that can decide close battles on their own. In a mixed gang with players from a couple months to a couple years old the new guy in a griffin might very well be more dangerous to your specific gang than the veteran in his curse. Question is will your FC recognize it, and will he have the balls to act on it despite the fact he will look like an idiot if it backfires?

  cujo603

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/21/06
Posts: 98

12/01/12 5:33:53 PM#29
Every time i've tried Eve, I find myself bored.  It feels like an unpaid 2nd job, not a game.
  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/02/12 3:06:10 AM#30
Originally posted by cujo603
Every time i've tried Eve, I find myself bored.  It feels like an unpaid 2nd job, not a game.

I wish my job was like EvE :(.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4823

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/02/12 3:22:05 AM#31
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Originally posted by cujo603
Every time i've tried Eve, I find myself bored.  It feels like an unpaid 2nd job, not a game.

I wish my job was like EvE :(.

this.

 

and I'm a miner/indy. which people claim is the absolute most boring thing in eve.

 

but then there's people who find fishing relaxing. I find mining relaxing.

 

"but you dont make 20mil/tick that way". NO I dont. But I also don'tlose much at all since I'm not a pvp'er. so why would I need to make isk that quickly? I'm sitting on 3.5 billion liquid cash, I have no capital skills. if i want something right now, I can afford it. to me that's enough. :)

 

I don't find it as a job because i dont feel a 'rush to progress'. i'm just enjoying it. It's odd to explain, most don't know what not rushing to progress in a game feels like. I mean ever played mario and not tried to progress? it cant be done. in most games it cant be done. Only in a sandbox.

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/02/12 5:43:37 AM#32
Originally posted by cujo603
Every time i've tried Eve, I find myself bored.  It feels like an unpaid 2nd job, not a game.

This is almost certainly because you tried to play it like a normal MMO, ie: like a job. If you want an unpaid 2nd job, EVE will cheerfully accomodate you. If you don't, it will allow you to live a life of risk and danger. The only catch is you'll actually have to run some risks and endure some danger.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  freejackmack

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 379

 
OP  12/04/12 9:59:06 PM#33

There have been quite a lot of fixes in this patch. Maybe because some of the old crap code is gone and replaced with new systems that actually does what is needed. I feel like there has been more care taken in this patch than in most. These changes have been a long time coming. Patch notes build 457011

I like this one: Unpiloted ships are no longer kicked out of a password-restricted forcefield when their owner logs in.

Seems like people are more aggressive now; or is it just me? I think it is because the rules of engagement are clearly defined and easier to understand and see.

It has been a very interesting day.

  zeropride

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/10
Posts: 22

12/04/12 10:54:01 PM#34
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by freejackmack

The cheap nature of the frigates does not mean they should not be able to fill at least one roll in combat and industry.

 

...

Tiers of roles is the best way.


 

Frigates always had place in EVE and their use remains unchanged. Ships always had their roles, regardless of tiers. Only what has changed is a label, tier -> role.


Nothing you talk about is actually changing anything in game. It is just vain marketing speech.


It is still Winmatar online like it used to be for years and years...no balance improvement achieved.

 

lol guess you didnt see the Minmatar whine in the threads. The rifter is usless, stabber can only bump and the rupture is no longer godly. Also the catalyst is taking over the thrashers spot cuz that redic deeps.

 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2875

12/04/12 11:00:23 PM#35
Originally posted by freejackmack

I have been a big opponent of this game for years but I have just read the website for the new expansion and it is full of win; if not just for the ship balancing and new ships that should have always been in Eve, then there is the bounty system that really shines with the ability to choose limitations on who your bounty is paid out to.

This means wars are more manageable for both the soldiers and the corp/alliance/coalition leaders. Soldiers can get immediate compensation for their efforts and leaders don't have to sift through pages of mail and then manually send off money.

That type of mechanic means more fun for all. Well done CCP, well done. This mechanic, exactly as described, should be in every mmo from now on, with no exceptions!

Read the details about the new bounty system for yourself if you have not already: bounty system

The simple brilliance of this system is very elegant; and I was skeptical when I first heard about the bounty system changing. I'm jealous that I did not come up with the system myself. This forces me to acknowledge the fact that there is hope for CCP, where as, before reading the details of this system I was wondering if CCP was just a front for the International Weed Smokers Association movement or a bunch of coked out x pimps. I guess they still could be but no-doubt they were exceptional at their trade and do well on drugs judging buy the details of the new systems.

The only thing that could facilitate war payout more effectively would be a bounty payed out automatically from corps/alliances/coalitions to people who kill a non allied ship with in a designated perimeter or select systems.

The new balancing is great; the new frigates are essential. The new short warp mod should have been reality at release. All the content in the new upcoming patch concerning ships should have been in game from day 1. But better now then never.

Other features like ui refinements and Crimewatch are really necessary and the AI revamp could be good as well for added fun.

This patch if all goes well will be the best patch in the 10 year history of Eve; I think you all can agree on that.

they systems for combat my be "fun" in that slow paced game but, lets not forget that it's who spends the most time playing the game who have already won. people have started at day one and still play will always be better than you.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1809

12/05/12 1:24:22 AM#36
Originally posted by grounnn
Originally posted by freejackmack

I have been a big opponent of this game for years but I have just read the website for the new expansion and it is full of win; if not just for the ship balancing and new ships that should have always been in Eve, then there is the bounty system that really shines with the ability to choose limitations on who your bounty is paid out to.

This means wars are more manageable for both the soldiers and the corp/alliance/coalition leaders. Soldiers can get immediate compensation for their efforts and leaders don't have to sift through pages of mail and then manually send off money.

That type of mechanic means more fun for all. Well done CCP, well done. This mechanic, exactly as described, should be in every mmo from now on, with no exceptions!

Read the details about the new bounty system for yourself if you have not already: bounty system

The simple brilliance of this system is very elegant; and I was skeptical when I first heard about the bounty system changing. I'm jealous that I did not come up with the system myself. This forces me to acknowledge the fact that there is hope for CCP, where as, before reading the details of this system I was wondering if CCP was just a front for the International Weed Smokers Association movement or a bunch of coked out x pimps. I guess they still could be but no-doubt they were exceptional at their trade and do well on drugs judging buy the details of the new systems.

The only thing that could facilitate war payout more effectively would be a bounty payed out automatically from corps/alliances/coalitions to people who kill a non allied ship with in a designated perimeter or select systems.

The new balancing is great; the new frigates are essential. The new short warp mod should have been reality at release. All the content in the new upcoming patch concerning ships should have been in game from day 1. But better now then never.

Other features like ui refinements and Crimewatch are really necessary and the AI revamp could be good as well for added fun.

This patch if all goes well will be the best patch in the 10 year history of Eve; I think you all can agree on that.

they systems for combat my be "fun" in that slow paced game but, lets not forget that it's who spends the most time playing the game who have already won. people have started at day one and still play will always be better than you.

Better at what? A carebear who has been sitting in highsec for 6 years will get his ass handed to him by a guy who has been pvping from day one for 6 months.

I only hear these kinds of comments from the mouths of people who have no or very little PvP experience.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4823

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/05/12 1:38:51 AM#37
Originally posted by grounnn
 people have started at day one and still play will always be better than you.

it's a common scenario in life and in most video games ...

  hfztt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 703

12/05/12 1:38:52 AM#38
Originally posted by Gdemami


CCP is failing to deliver since 2008...

 

Nah. CCP failed to deliver 2008-2011.

The last 1½ year has been pure win. Actaully fixing stuff that has needed fixing since 2003.

From now on they need to start adding large new content though, or it will start being an issue that they only fix things that are broken.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4823

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/05/12 1:42:00 AM#39

I don't want 'large' new content...and I dont like the new targetting circles.

 

UGH. Why do MMOs have to change things I'm used to ?

 

a ship here and there, some fluff...fine...but focus-shifting changes like wow's expansions do, I don't want. I feel there's enough content in eve to cycle through and not be bored for a lifetime.

 

I'm certainly not found of that flashy timer every time i kill a rat. Does anyone know how to turn off / kill flashiness / return UI to how it was before ?

 

te combat log spam with every drone listed...yikes, I'd hate to be a carrier.

 

CAN I TURN IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS ?

 

 

  zomard100

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 232

12/05/12 1:56:01 AM#40
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
War Decs keep me from coming back to Eve. I get in a new small corp and were having fun then bam war dec by some 50 year vet and we die and or people quit. What fun :( This has happen each time I have come back. I stopped coming back.

You must be a very ''bad'' person in game or a fearsome pvp guy. My small corp was never wd in few years and we do some random pvp. Can't see other reason to be wd from some big corp

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