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EVE Online Forum » Jita (General) » Want to come back - but always had this problem....

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29 posts found
  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/09/12 3:50:44 PM#21

Originally posted by Kyleran

I probably should have tossed in a few emotes or something to indicate my reply was more tongue in cheek, truthfully i don't understand your motivation to work for skills when an alternative exists, but then I don't understand why people eat sushi either, just seems weird to me. 

Regarding the highlighted comment, there's a reason that CCP itself created a tongue in cheek video called HTFU, go check it out if you want to see what sort of universe they actively promote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

 If you took my reply as hostile, then you don't understand EVE or even these forums for that matter.

Originally posted by ChoadSauce

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that eve is not like other MMO's. It's a game where you have to MAKE your own fun. It provides hundreds of tools for the player to be able to do whatever they want.

You have to learn to ignore your restrictions from skills.....Hell, Ignore the skills alltogether (just make sure something is queued) and go do something. Believe me, 8 hours queue time is nothing compared to some other skills. I had a skill going on for 25 days, I would go insane and probably quit if I kept paying attention to "that next skill". 

Figure out what it is what you want to do, and pursue it. I think your main problem is not having any guidance through your journey into the Eve world. You need to find a corporation that best suits your interests. Weather it being mining, PVE or PVP. there are literally hundreds of things you can do.  

I remember for a good month, I spent most of my time traveling through systems with expensive cargo, trading with other stations. Its risky and really gets the heart pumped.  

Find a corp that's very ambitious and determined for long term goals, and see what it is you can help them with etc.

Learn about how other ships operate, how they are fitted etc. Believe me, other players are always more then happy to talk about their ships, they never get tired of it lol. 

Hope this helps

Kyleran:

Bahahaha yea, love that video - I remember when it came out.

You could probably chalk it up to compartmentalizing my internet. When you go on the official EVE forums, you just KNOW everyone is either kinda stupid, pretending to be stupid, or just straight up trolling. It's just the community there. I guess when I came here I hadn't put myself back in the mindset of "there are people who act exactly like they do on the EVE forums."

I mean, to be honest, the EVE community isn't any more unique then the next batch of people. At least as far as I have ever noticed in my couple months of playtime. The unique thing is the game - but once you account for the uniqueness of the game, the EVE community is just the standard MMO community. Well, people might get offended when I say standard, but I don't mean it as an insult, so let's just say normal.

Oh! And I wasn't claiming YOUR post was hostile. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

ChaodSauce:

Full disclosure: I read your name as Chaos Sauce the first time I saw it - and for some reason that made me laugh really hard. 

Thanks for the helpful post!

Corporations were definitely a problem for me when I originally played EVE, I think that was back in 2007. I've returned several times over the years and just never found my place. In early 2010, I was literally so noobish in responding to a recruitment message that someone suspected me of being a infiltrator. It was quite frustrating - but also a fun gaming story to tell.

I've thought about doing EVE University a few times, but as a college student it just felt weird to be coming home from school to attend video game school. Perhaps if I return during my Winter Break there will be less of a resistance to that sort of thing, at least until I find a good veteran player who can teach me the game.

Learning other ships was another thing I wasn't good at. Probably because I never got far enough into the game. 

I'll keep these in mind if I resub. Thanks!

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Kiljaedenas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 461

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

11/09/12 4:36:14 PM#22
Originally posted by delimeat567

Maybe I should just precursor this by saying my first MMORPG was SWG. At the time, it was still mostly a sandbox with some themepark elements sneaking in, but by no means taking over the game. 

That being said, I have to just get something off my mind. I love the idea and the setting of EVE Online. I've read through the lore several times, and even thought about doing some fan fiction. But, everytime I return to EVE, I run into the same problem: I don't like how skills are leveled up in this game. 

When I subscribe to the game, it only ever lasts a few days before I realize that all I can do to advance myself that day is queue up some training, then go play another game. If I go out and massacre some pirates with my missiles, I don't get extra experience - and for some reason, that is the one thing that really bothers me about the game. I love sci-fi, and it's one of those cliche situations where I really want to like this game, but I just can't get over the fact that my skills are in no way based on my actions. I kill 1 pirate, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. I kill 1,000,000 pirates, I will get that missile skill in 8 hours. 

So I guess my question to you guys is, or my request for advice, how do you get around that? Doesn't it bother you that you aren't goin to finish a skill up no matter how much you use it simply because the game dictates that you can't earn the skill, you have to have it implanted into you. Let's just be honest, you aren't going to see a change in the skill system when the game is as old as it is. But, how do I get around the fact that whether or not I play, I'm advancing? If I play for 5 hours one day, I advance in skill as much as I do if I hadn't played for 5 seconds. 

I can't be the only one who is weirded out by this system - although perhaps I am the only one on these boards for obvious reasons. What do you guys do to fill your time? Playing the market is fun, but haulting isn't any good until you save up enough money to do the decent jobs. Joining a corporation was difficult as a newbie; everyone though I was going to steal from them. 

Anyway, just thought I would make a post here. I've been thinking about returning again lately, but am on the border like always.  Let me know what you guys think, and your answers to the questions I asked! Thanks a bunch guys and gals!

I like to think about the skill gaining this way:

In WoW, AoC, insert-themepark-name-here, to gain skills in specific areas (notably Crafting) you have to spend gameplay time directly doing that action because you have to. If you want to improve your blacksmithing skill, you MUST mine/buy the ores and then you MUST craft items over and over again at increasing difficulty in order to improve the skill. What if I want to improve the skill so that I can make a super duper sword but I don't want to do the mining and crafting? What if I want to go exploring, or group up with guild mates on a raid? Tough shit...you have to do the mining and crafting. Perhaps at first it could be fun, but really...in the long run, is that constant searching for rare ores, mining, searching, mining, then crafting crafting crafting crafting *insert 9 more craftings* crafting really fun?

Eve's skill gain system removes that direct grind requirement. If I want to improve my manufacturing skills all I have to do is buy the required skillbook(s), inject them, start the training...and then I can go do whatever I bloody hell want, at any time. I am not forced to mine to improve my mining skills, I am not forced to fight to improve my combat skills. I could be spying while I learn to build new ships, mining while I'm learning how to fly a Dreadnaught, blowing shit up while I'm learning how to improve my planetary bases...I am completely free to choose my actions, or even inaction if I feel like turning it off and taking a break from the game. The fact that I can train a vital skill while I'm having a nice dinner out with my wife and son is a major, major plus to me, and personally I find Eve's skill system BETTER than anything else I have ever seen because of that freedom.

So, what do you do to fill your time? Answer: Pick something. Anything. Have fun doing it.

Where's the any key?

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/09/12 4:54:35 PM#23
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

I like to think about the skill gaining this way:

In WoW, AoC, insert-themepark-name-here, to gain skills in specific areas (notably Crafting) you have to spend gameplay time directly doing that action because you have to. If you want to improve your blacksmithing skill, you MUST mine/buy the ores and then you MUST craft items over and over again at increasing difficulty in order to improve the skill. What if I want to improve the skill so that I can make a super duper sword but I don't want to do the mining and crafting? What if I want to go exploring, or group up with guild mates on a raid? Tough shit...you have to do the mining and crafting. Perhaps at first it could be fun, but really...in the long run, is that constant searching for rare ores, mining, searching, mining, then crafting crafting crafting crafting *insert 9 more craftings* crafting really fun?

Eve's skill gain system removes that direct grind requirement. If I want to improve my manufacturing skills all I have to do is buy the required skillbook(s), inject them, start the training...and then I can go do whatever I bloody hell want, at any time. I am not forced to mine to improve my mining skills, I am not forced to fight to improve my combat skills. I could be spying while I learn to build new ships, mining while I'm learning how to fly a Dreadnaught, blowing shit up while I'm learning how to improve my planetary bases...I am completely free to choose my actions, or even inaction if I feel like turning it off and taking a break from the game. The fact that I can train a vital skill while I'm having a nice dinner out with my wife and son is a major, major plus to me, and personally I find Eve's skill system BETTER than anything else I have ever seen because of that freedom.

So, what do you do to fill your time? Answer: Pick something. Anything. Have fun doing it.

Yep, this is exactly the kind of thing I have learned from this thread. It helps me get used to the idea to hear others repeat it.

Thanks for the reply!

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2125

11/11/12 7:21:44 AM#24

You must set a goal, if you don't have a set goal you will endup playing an hour a day then waitin for the  skills to increase.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  M1sf1t

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1599

11/12/12 2:58:06 PM#25


Originally posted by delimeat567

Originally posted by Muke

Don't be fooled, you can have the skill 'injected' as you say and maybe trained to max level 5, that certainly doesn't guarantee a successful use of the skills. I still have to learn to use those new skills through using your brain. 

Bleh. I must just be awful at presenting my point in this thread.

I'm not, in anyway, saying I want to be able to AFK my certs because that would make me good at the game. 

What I am saying is I want to see my certs increase as my skill in the game increases. As I gain, in real-life, more EVE skill, by doing missions, or PvP, or any of the millions of things I do in game - I want that to be translated into in-game advancement of my certifications. I miss the experience points earned in other games.

EVE tells me, "I don't care if you play for 72 hours this week, you are only getting to Missile Launcher 3!!!" Then it also tells someone else, "I don't care if you play for 72 seconds this week, you are only getting to Missile Launcher 3!!!"

While I will probably beat the crap out of that other player when we face off, he still gets to use the same equipment as me (assuming he has the money - which is easy to come by in EVE). That is the problem I have.



The problem you speak of only addresses the fact that you both get what you wanted. It doesn't however take into account that if you spent 72 hours playing you'd have a lot more knowledge on how best to make use of that skill in missiles vs somebody who received the skill but does not have the appropriate personal knowledge and in game experience to put that "tool" to use in a appropriate setting and/or scenario.

In other words knowledge is very much power in EVE. It determines a host of outcomes for the given actions taken by a player (e.g. how to best avoid a gate gatecamp in 0.0 or lowsec) or how to best fit your ship for pvp using that missile skill, etc.

Thus the real worth of any skill in game is dependent on the knowledge and ability of the player to understand the actual game mechanics and this is not something you pick up by just logging in for "72 seconds a week" and clicking on skill button to learn it for the tier level.

Another example is that 2 players could learn market/trade in order to buy and sell goods in EVE but one player logs in only for 10 minutes a week while the other one logs in 10 hours a week to actually conduct market related trading and read up on how the in-game market works in relation to the skills their character learns.

Inevitably the person with the most invested time and knowledge will benefit the most from the market/trade skills they have trained and learned to use vs the person who did bother to gain any understanding on how to best utilize those market skill books in order to play the market and reap a profit in game.

Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.

Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:

GW2 (+LoL and BF3)

  delimeat567

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 56

 
OP  11/12/12 3:12:16 PM#26

M1sf1t:

Yes, I believe that is what I meant when I said, "While I will probably beat the crap out of that other player when we face off, he still gets to use the same equipment as me (assuming he has the money - which is easy to come by in EVE). That is the problem I have."

I've come to understand the intention behind "skills" in this game a lot more than I previously did. As such I'm planning on re-subbing to give it another shot sometime in December. 

Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

11/16/12 4:06:08 PM#27

Hmm this brings back memories. I was in exactly the opposite position as you are OP. You see EvE was my first MMO back in 2004, unlike most on this site i don't have bragging rights dating back to meridian 79 or some other game, not because im too young for those but simply because they never appealed to me ... in all honesty i thought they where a scam, asking a monthly fee to play a game?! Ontop of what im already pay for internet?! Remember you actually paid by the minute back then and couldn't use your phone while doing so ... so yeah i thought they where a elaborate scam by AOL or somesuch to raise my internet bill through the roof.

 

But i digress, back to start. So EvE was my first MMO, the lure of a dark and gritty scifi universe was pretty strong back then, and EvE hooked me like nothing else. Of course nothing in the game was weird to me, i had nothing to compare it too after all. Time based leveling? Guess MMOs do it that way. Ships and items lost on death? Makes perfect sense because there is no save option in an MMO. One server for everyone? Well that was obviously the difference between an MMO and a multiplayer game like Unreal Tournament.

Now fast forward 1 year into the future and im getting massive peer pressure for the "new" WoW. I could never get my friends into eve simply because it was english only. So i gave in and got WoW, i wanted to play with my friends and i was sure if i got them hooked on WoW i could later turn them to a proper MMO(i.e. one with spaceships, there is just no way elves and chubby little ... what the HELL ... can compete with fricking lasers on a badass spaceship).

 

Ok. Lets talk culture shock. Can you imagine what WoW was like for someone coming from EvE and only knowing warcraft 1 and 2? Ok i played some Unreal tournament and counterstrike, but still, that didn't remotely prepare me. It was so ...senseless. Why could NPCs die, yet i could not? Was there some religious aspect i missed? And why do i keep killing people for no reason whatsoever apart from the color of their target circle? Why can't i use that big twohanded hammer of mine on that midget running circles around me? Why does the dagger i have found do more damage than a twohanded hammer? Why does the armor NPCs wear not protect them? Why do my friends like this? Basicly i was sure AOL was somehow involved again ...

Because that game ... it was unrealistic. Sure you might say fantasy or scifi is inherently unrealistic, but its a plausible unrealism. WoW though wasn't just unrealistic because it played in a fantasy world, it deeply offended me because because it was and abstraction of an fantasy world made in a way to fit a certain kind of game design. Things like being unable to loot player corpses, full immortality for players and their items and PvP flags etc greatly offended me, oh i could see their purpose from a game design pov, but i didn't want a game, i wanted a World

Suffice to say i got over my initial dislike and enjoyed WoW for a year or two for what it was, but to this day the whole process of acquiring experience by killing things or repeatedly using skills offends me. Its too much of an obvious gamemechanic, and no suspension of disbelief makes it sensible.

EvE's training on the other hand made sense for me from day one. It takes time to learn to fly a new ship, just like it takes time to learn driving stick. Also your not reading books, that would be way messy considering your floating in what amounts to goo. You do however have your brain directly connected to a computer via spinal cords, so i think it is safe to say your char is running simulations learning how to use new weapons or perfecting the use of things he already knows. Maybe your even getting the info directly implanted into that part of the brain that lets me drive a car without having to actively think about actions like shifting gears or using the clutch ... well anything is possible if you have cables leading into your brain i guess.

 

Eve always was realistic to me, so much so i didn't even notice that i had started roleplaying. It is world closed into itself, no parallel universes(multiple servers) or instances. If i read about something happening in EvE, i knew it was happening in the EvE that i played. And if i had to wait 2 weeks for a skill to finish ... yeah i wasn't happy. Infact most of the time i already lost interest in whatever i trained for by the time i finished level 5, but i digress ...

I guess what im trying to say is that its about perspective. In the beginning the training in eve was just "normal" for me as it was the only MMO i knew. And later it became a part of the "realism" i valued so highly about eve. Progression has to be painful to be meaningful, and there is no more painful preogression than in EvE.

Though how can you enjoy it? How can this system that annoys you become something you value instead? The answer for me is relaxiation, and dedication. If your dedicated to the game, because you love the genre for example, its not a question of if you get a skill or ship, but a question of when. Since your activity does neither hasten nor delay that point in time, you can let go of the pressure of progression. Yes its slow, but if you come home after a hard day, be it from work or school, its very nice to fire up the game and just hang out with your corp, chatting a bit and doing other things around the house while still progressing. The time i spent playing eve, it was often a different kind of time that i spent in other games like WoW.

 

So yeah, the slow training times are part of EvEs pacing. A very important part of it even, as much an asset as they are an annoyance. They are a big part of the reason you can play EvE the way that YOU want. Why should you have to kill a million pirates, if you don't want too? Maybe today i go and kill a couple dozen pirates ... then again maybe i trade some stuff in jita ... or i watch that new episode of Sons of Anarchy while posting spoilers in corp chat for those that didn't see it yet or don't care. Its my choice, and i don't have to feel guilty for either(apart from the last maybe :D) and nor am i missing out on anything.

In the end you need to see leveling systems, wether they are character levels or item levels(and thus item treatmill), for what they are. A carrot on a stick, meant to appeal to some leftover instincts of us that a psychologist could probably write a mountain of papers on. They are things that make us do timesinks that we wouldn't do if there wasn't a reward associated with it. I.e. they are a way to make us do things that we don't enjoy for themselves and only do because of a "reward". Thats called a job. In eve you have the chance to break that rythm. You do things for themselves, because you enjoy them. Wether it be PvP, Mining, PvE or just spending your free time with people you like. And when you do stuff you don't like, like PvP, Mining or PvE ... you usually do it for the sake of those people that you like, which takes alot of the sting from it.

 

So just forget about the whole skill system. Look at the game. Do you like the graphics? Have you met nice people? Are there activities that get your blood pumping or give you that nice fuzzy chilled out feeling? You can start trying almost everything in the game even with low SP, ask yourself wether there are activities that you enjoy, which would get even better if you spent more SP in them and then do it. Don't just play the game for progressings sake. Trust me, finally training Battleship 5 is nice but not 4 weeks worth of nice. It won't make you enjoy the game more, it won't make running missions turn from boring into awesome.

Eve does have its carrots, the skills however are not part of it. Or atleast not as big a part as they are in games like WoW. The best way i can say it is probably that they are not equivalent to WoWs levels. It appears so on first look, but they really have a different purpose/meaning. They are not central to the game, they are important, but you don't do what you do for their sake, infact its the other way around your skills help you to do what you (like) to do better.

 

Asking for skill improvement based on use/kills is like reversing cause and effect:

I better my skills so that i can kill pirates 

vs.

I kill pirates so that my skill gets better

 

Different strokes for different folks i guess.

  Eleazaros

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 198

11/20/12 10:31:51 PM#28

I posted some info about EVE a while back on the EVE-O forums.  It was someone asking about if they could play this game casually and I put a bit of info in on it.

Games like WoW, Rift and the like... They're kind of like "cramming for college exams".

If someone has blocks of time to invest, they are "easy". If they don't, nor have additional chunks of time they can guarantee as available to "keep advancing" -- they won't be able to keep up with their friends nor will their gear retain sufficient value to be of use in "higher end content". A HAC from 3 years ago is still a good ship to use but the same can't be said about equipment in those other games.

If your goal is to be more a soloist type that flips between various groups as you play, then this game probablly won't fit anywhere near as well as one of the "carrot on a stick" games. (not an insult, I have played them and it is chasing a short-term catch style carrot that then moves, making all your stuff "junk" while also requiring revamps of skill-trees to meet this set of tweaks.)

In this game, there is no carrot to chase.  It's something you get as you play.  You can't race to it.  You can't make it come to you faster.  You will reach it if you stick to a chosen path that you pick - the bitch is knowing how to pick a path with so many options available.

EVE is a very social friendly game in this respect.  If you get in with a "good fit" group for your style of play, you'll probably stay.  If not, you'll probably leave.  This social side is what keeps and costs the game the bulk of its players.

The downside to this is that EVE is also one of the most brutal environments for new players and "trust me" often translates pretty closely to "F*** You". 

Scams, gankers, griefers of all sorts run through this game so trying to find a good group to hang with can be a challenge for many - that and how the hell do you determine if a group would be a good fit until after you know a bit about them?

tl;dr - if it's progressing at a set pace, this is a great game.  You won't fall behind others even if life gets in your way but if it is "cram for exams" style of play you are after, with constant advancement notices, this game will flat out suck.

  Komandor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/09
Posts: 260

11/21/12 3:43:59 AM#29
Originally posted by Torgrim

You must set a goal, if you don't have a set goal you will endup playing an hour a day then waitin for the  skills to increase.

You are totally right bout goal setting.

Keep on rockin'!

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