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EVE Online » Jita (General) » Why "Newbies will never catch up to Veterans" is a myth. Read if you're having doubts.

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Jeratan  7/18/08 12:52:04 PM

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I constantly hear gripes (from newer players) of various flavours centering around 'eve is too tailored to the older players'... most commonly, the notion new players will never be able to match old school players because of SP discrepancy.

This comes in many forms like:
"If a characters is older they can kill you whenever they like"
"If youre new, dont bother, you will always suck"


A lot of newer players are leaving the game or not trying it at all because they have heard this and are beleiving this to be the case.  This is simply not true.

This post is to dispel the myth that new players can't catch up to older players.

SP has no cap.  This much is true...  But SP by itself doesnt do anything.  The skills, and how you use them are what matters - and all skills have caps, and all ships use a combination of skills.  Eve ships are effectively skill capped.  The smaller the ship, the less SP required to reach the 'cap'.

I have a freind who was in the exact same boat when he tried the game about 16 months ago. With a little convincing and coaching from me, he stuck around and is very grateful I stopped him making the mistake completley quitting eve.  Hes now a VERY wealthy Amarr-Khanid pvp god with a Thanatos and CNR pilot.

 

 


A comparison between my new(ish) character and my veteran character.



I have been playing eve for ~5 years.

I have a number of characters for various reasons, the highest of which being a Minmatar pilot from June 2003 wth just under 80M Skillpoints - Every single SP directly related to PvP.

I also have an '07 Minmatar pilot that has a fraction over 20 million skillpoints.

My '07 minmatar pilot flies the same Minmatar ships at least 95% as well as my ~80 Million SP June '03 PVP Pilot.  These ships consist of (but definatley not limited to) Vagabond, Maelstrom and Tempest, Jaguar, Hyena.

Both characters can fly all of these ships with full T2 fittings and all nessasary support skills and specialisations to level IV or V.

If I wanted an uber tackler, I could have had her flying a sabre with 'almost' perfect skills MUCH sooner.
If I wanted an uber anti-nano ship, I could have had her flying a Huginn with 'almost' perfect skills MUCH sooner.

Even '03 characters will very rarely take the time to get 'perfect' skills.. take specializations for example.
It's a matter of hours to get to level 3(of 5) at 2% extra damage per level for a total of 4% over level 1.  Most players will settle for level 4 which generally takes 4 days (any large gun or cruise missile spec to IV), but if you want an extra 2% over other people, you have the option of training for another month.  Even veteran pilots like myself will very rarely take the month required for an additional 2% damage.

The trick is to get your learning done early on, invest in the best implants you can afford to lose and to specialise.

The only advantage veteran characters have, over one lower SP specialised character is diversity. but no real power comes from diversity.  It gets increasingly difficult to have a specialised, non-capital pilot as you pass the 25m sp mark (should be on to your second year in eve by then) and that is when you can diversify or jump into capitals without penalty.

 



Diversifying as a new pilot

If you diversify all your skills spread out over all four races, trying to fly multiple classes early on, it's going to have very large impact on your PvP prowess.  Do you think you deserve to be able to pilot a specific ship anywhere near as well as someone who has spent the effort to specialise or has spent 5 years training to do when you do not?

I had a 2004 Caldari character that (that I sold last year to a friend) that flew gallente, amarr and caldari with horribly done learning skills and he was just awful at everything.  The only ship he could fly anywhere near reasnably were caldari assault frigates.  I asked the current owner about him and he has ~35M SP (low for a character his age because I neglected his learning) and the ONLY worthwhile ship he can pilot well is a Scimatar! (Shield Logistics cruiser).  In pre-arranged 1v1s his raven lost to my 6 month old character in a super tanked Wolf (!) - a character that was like a tenth of his age, in a frigate sized ship versus a battleship.

I regulary cross-trained ships on that character only to find that the grass was never greener.  The grass was just different and had it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. 

There were a few points in the game where there were some very green spots, the old 6 gyro Tempest that could alpha most ship in one cycle of its guns.. the 8 HS MP 'Geddon that would literally melt any ship in seconds... the nanophoon and nanodomi that had their glory days, the nosdomi that was almost unbeatable 1v1... They all had their glory days but the balance of the game is always shifting.  Find a race that you like the look and feel of and just stick to it.
 

 


The way cross-train / diversify, and keep up.


If it's that important to you to fly another race or try something new, it's worth getting another account and specialising that character too.  The added advantage is that properly trained and specialised characters have very high market value and are sold for billion and billions of isk.  In the event that you change your mind and wish you didnt spend the additional money on subscription, simply sell the character for Isk and then use that isk to purchase gametime codes for your original account.  With a proper character, you will at least break even in terms of subscription fees (my last character sale had me net 17 billion isk)

 



Capital ships

Some people may point out capital ships as the big factor.  These of course take longer to fly than usual ships.. but they ARE the biggest and baddest ships in the game.  If you specialise for it you can be sitting in a Chimera (Caldari Carrier) in the thick of things with your capital shield tank.. fighter bombing people and laying down heavy logistics support to your gangmates from a trial account in approximatley ~6 months.  E:This is something to consider once you already have a good understanding of the eve universe.

With another few months finishing off skills you will be doing it at least 90% as well as rest of them.. this is for a character less than a year old.

If you do the same with a Gallente pilot you'd also have a character that is capable of flying other drone-based boats reasonably decently and be able to do things such as level four missions in a correctly set up dominix.




Generating Isk

The other problem new characters may have is generating isk for such ships (Like capitals).  There are so many ways to generate loads of isk but they all take dedication time and effort (Unless you were one of the lucky individuals to win the T2 lottery back in the day).
I got into trading early on in the game and have had my spikes of wealth here and there.  I currently have a character that is the CEO of a capital ship construction corporation that I have invested over half dozen capital BPOs into.  That character makes between 1-2 billion isk profit a month from production.  I have a lot invested into that corp for it to generate that sort of isk flow.  If capital ships, and keeping up with the older pilots is that important to you there are ways to generate similar isk without the investment.

0.0 Ratting
Combat characters that rat in 0.0 and are very proficient at it can net above 20+million an hour in bounties (I've managed to do upwards of 30 with some luck and time spent grooming belts)  with the option of also collecting and reprocessing the junk they drop and then even salvaging the wrecks on top of that.  Then there is the mini lottery of officer, faction and hauler spawns that are on the spawn table every day.  Assuming you only rat for 2 or so hours a day.. you're pretty much making the same amount of isk that my capital construction corp does with almost zero investment and can pay for a semi-faction fitted carrier in a month (thats above 1.2 billion in just over 4 weeks).

Carriers
Some corporations will subsidise the cost of skillbooks and perhaps have an arrangement for cost-price carriers (or better).  Once you have your carrier it's an invaluable asset and often always overlooked for making isk.  You can jump rare minerals from 0.0 up to low-sec and then haul them into trading hubs for a vast profit, then purchase ships from the same trade hub and load them back into your carrier and jump it back into 0.0 where you can then sell the ships at a nice premium.

Missions
Level 4 missions generally provide more isk than 0.0 ratting and have the added bonus of LP and faction standing increases.  For example: I probably average around 7K LP per mission from my agent (4-10k per mission, declining the crap ones) and buy 5-run faction weapon upgrade BPC that cost ~110k LP (~15 missions) and about 50 mill isk in raw isk and some tags that you get from mission loot. I then get them built (I used to give them to an industrial freind but I can now build them myself) and sell them all for 70 million isk each x 5, generally giving me an additional 300 million isk every week while I'm doing missions (bout 90-120 minutes a day).

You can jumpstart standings by helping out someone who already has a level 4 agent and have them share the reward with fleet while you're in it.  You can reach the required standing in no time.
It's possible to run level 4s with as little as two million skillpoints if you're Caldari.  The easiest to get started are Caldari (Drake to Raven) followed by Gallente (Myrmidon to Dominix)

Mining
Mining is just a dirty word.

I cannot think of any MMORPG where a new character starts off on equal footing on veteran players.  Tony came from that hellhole World of Warcraft where he kept drawing comparisons from Eve (like I see newer players doing), saying he would never be able to catch up.. and I would do the same thing from the opposite perspective... so heres my take on it from that view: A  player new to world of warcraft would hit 1-70 in probably 15-20 days /played.. assuming they were pretty competent, dedicated and got in at least 2-3 hours every single day they would reach level 70 within 6 months.. but then they had to go through the process of getting their attunements and tiered gearsets until they got their tier 6 and then there was the case of getting the season 3 arena gear.  While there are the exeptions, It's not uncommon at all for new player to take years to obtain this stuff.

Eve is the same.  Don't be a whining newbie. Be the exeption.

Get eve-mon.
Take the trial, work out what you want to do it in eve.
Re-start your character if you messed up the attributes or changed heart on what race you want to fly (Like we all did on our first go)
Make a plan and try to stick to it. 
Don't invest into too many combat skills until you've done your learning to at least 4(base) and 3(advanced).  Make sure you dont forget to finish your learning later on.

If you want to cross-train, have a hauler/indy alt, have a dedicated carrier pilot, whatever.. do it on another account.  If you change your mind, sell the account and redeem the subscription fee by purchasing GTC's with Isk.

Eve has a steep learning curve, very steep... but 'Newbies will never catch up to veterans' is a self-limiting MYTH!

For one reason or another, people are still getting the idea you need to sit in a station and train for at least 12 months to 'get anywhere'.   To provide a view from the opposite side of the spectrum, I'm thinking of including a brief outline of a skill plan for a pilot that will be capable of:

Finishing learning very early on without dying of boredom.
Flying cruisers within 10 days (PvP capable. Not ideal but capable) 
Flying tech-2 PvP ships, fitted with the same T2 weapons and modules that the most experienced PvPers use with all the required support skills in ~6 weeks
Ratting in comfortably 0.0 space with a battlecruiser in ~7 weeks
Flying full T2 fit HAC's that excel in PvP in ~3 months, 
Flying battleships and doing level 4 missions within 4 months.
Flying full T2 fit battleships in 6 months.

Edit: I've given this a lot more thought, and I've figured lf I get enough interest I may do a little experiment with a brand new self-funded, self sufficient combat character, to see if it is possible, just how difficult it is, and detailing how I obtained the skills, the ships, the isk, and exactly how to replicate it.

Let me know if any new players, ex-eve players considering coming back, or people considering playing eve for the first time would be genuinley interested in this.

 
ssnautilus  7/18/08 1:23:41 PM

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Very well written article, sir. Makes me want to come back to EVE. Always liked the Elite/Frontier genre.

 

However, one part you dont mention is steps needed to specialize. YOU are a veteran who knows which ships can outrun and outgun in any given scenario - since you have invested over 5 years learning the ropes.

Normal people WILL makes wrong decisions when choosing their skill-trees (and perhaps learn from those mistakes). Reason simply being lack of knowledge. It easy when you know how.

I also note that you mention 2 year time frame to get "decently" competitive. Most people will not be investing that kind of realtime.

You also mention 0.0 space - which may be granting YOU millions of isk - but a newcomer wont even be getting close to that space without getting blown to bits first.

So. What example skill-trees can you outline that will help players specialize in their different roles. And what specialization roles do you recommend for starters.

 
batolemaeus  7/18/08 1:40:08 PM

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Normal people WILL makes wrong decisions when choosing their skill-trees (and perhaps learn from those mistakes). Reason simply being lack of knowledge. It easy when you know how.


You say that as if that wouldn't happen to vets too..

Btw., i went into 0.0 warfare in a well equipped ship within a few months. It's a matter of preparation and mindset, not sp. Let me redirect you to this fine propaganda poster

 
Eschiava  7/18/08 1:41:14 PM

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Absolutely BRILLIANT article!  Bravo!

 
Jeratan  7/18/08 1:53:07 PM

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"2 year time frame to get "decently" competitive"?

Well I said it's more like one year, but thats not one year to get 'up to par' thats one year to be just as good as the very best in New Eden in half a dozen ships or more and a lot better than the majority of players.  The rest is up to your talent and understanding of eve mechanics.

Your second point... I really don't think it's that difficult to know what to train.  I was a once a noob too.

Lets take an example,

New players chooses a race he likes the look of.. Lets say, Amarr.

(I personally wouldent do it this way, but I'll just choose out of viable options randomly.)

Not hard to work out amarr are armor tanking light of god spewing laserboats.
Not hard to work out ship class goes up in size (in terms of skills and modules) from frigate > cruiser > battleship with destroyer and battlecruiser in between.

Either way, no matter which way he goes up, as long as he doesnt train another race's ships, another races' guns or industrial skills he's heading down the right path.

Thats where eve-mon comes in.  He sees a nice amarr ship he would be interested in, checks out the stats, etc. asks some peoples opinion on it (say its a zealot) and just bangs zealot into eve-mon. it tells him exactly what he needs to sit in it, and logic tells him he needs to fit some form of armor tank and laser weaponry.  If his setup doesnt fit he needs to use a fitting mod or downgrade his guns, etc. while he looks at getting AWU4.


As long as you dont cross-train early on and don't neglect learning, youre not making any mistakes.

As for the 0.0 thing, there are many alliances and corporations that just are just looking for extra manpower.  They will have experienced people always available to answer questions and offer guidance to move into, and adjusting to 0.0 in corp chat. You can seek out 0.0 as a newbie, you just have to want it enough to find the right people to take you there.

 
TdogSkal  7/18/08 1:53:34 PM

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Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants.

I am a newbie and I could careless about catching up to vets... I dont expect to be as good as someone that has played for over a year..... That is just stupid.

Skills.. I figure I will learn skills the longer I play so who cares if they have millions of skils to my million... what does it matter,  I can only use so many skills why flying my ship.

I am current a caldari pilot with a Kestrel equipped with 4 standard Missle launchers.  (thanks to nice players at Eve Universty - working on being a memeber soonish)

So far the hardest thing is learning the skills and what skills I need to take first... I started training learning but I quickly moved on to other skills and I am going to go back to learning once I figure out what I need.

I just downloaded Evemon? and I will be playing with it more when I get home today.

So far EvE is alot of fun, I have not done PvP yet but so far I am having tons of fun running missions and learning to pilot my ship... I love missles but from what I read, I need to go with rail guns.

So far I am thinking of a sniper/scout ship or a Covert Ops ship.   Going to stay with Caldari ships since I like them.....The learning curve is no joke.....I have never played any game that made me take a step back and go hmmm where the hell do I start.

Waiting on CoS and Darkfall

Jeratan  7/18/08 2:23:46 PM

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TdogSkal, You're on the right track mate, and Eve-Uni is a great place to start.

If sniping ships tickle your fancy and you like covert ops, I'd reccomend you work on frigate V, try out the Merlin and look at moving either into Harpy or a Moa.

If you decide you don't like the whole Merlin gunnery thing, missile ships can still be effective 'snipers' (I'd call them long range anti-support) as ships like the Cerberus and Raven can get silly ranges (180+km and 250+km respecivley) out of missiles.

If the Merlin does tickle your fancy and you like the mobility and tracking of small ships, go for the Harpy.  If you want something a big bigger and beefier, go the Moa - It's probably better bang for your buck at this stage as it's going to be easier in missions, etc. and insures for full.

"I love missles but from what I read, I need to go with rail guns."

Heavy missiles maybe need some love with the slow explosion velocity.. but apart from that missiles are damn good.  If I was in your shoes I would go missiles all the way.  I'm not sure what context people are telling you to go for railguns with, I'm assuming its fleet work - the Rokh is a good but very expensive fleet sniper and in that respect thats all it really does well.  The raven outclasses it in every other respect. 
Alliances are slowly learning how to use ravens properly in fleets (anti support) so there will be more places for them there in the near future too.
I feel the Ferox, Vulture and Eagle are a bit underwhelming.. while the drake and raven are two of the best ships in the game.  I've recently grown more accustomed to cerberus too :)

 
xtravert  7/18/08 2:27:41 PM

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I had a nice little missle boat... nothing like the streaming missles arching towards the enemy... sigh.  They're a lot o ffun.  You should give them a try at least once. :)

 
saint4God  7/18/08 2:29:48 PM

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To Jeratan:

Ah, okay, so you don't like people 'whining' about EVE, yet you call World of Warcraft a 'hellhole'.  I play both.  World of Warcraft is more fun, but EVE is a change of pace for me when I need one.  My advice would be careful when you're addressing cynical people whilst becoming one yourself.  It'll make your case much more effective when you take the high road.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/

Jeratan  7/18/08 3:03:00 PM