They are not goig to upgrade graficd on revelations I ?

Way to go EVE! I don't play much anymore but was there in beta and played for about 2 1/2 years. I hope it continues to grow.

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Originally posted by WARCRYtm
They are not goig to upgrade graficd on revelations I ?

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No.

Evil knows no "cancel subscription" button.  Or an "quit session" command.  Since these two things are in any MMO, evil cannot be something programmers and developers can coordinate, facilitate, understand, or control.

You can find evil, and be evil anywhere, and in any mmo.  Here is a good example of something that was seen as "evil" in World of Warcraft, and pay special attention to the board comments.

Reynir Hardarson's analysis of evil as a design challenge only shows why engineers and computer programmers will always do a bad job at understanding these metaphysical questions.  Because as any philosopher or theologian will tell you, if true evil existed in EVE, then nobody would play EVE, much less pay for it.

You see, for something to be evil, it has to be something that is so horrible that you want to escape from it, yet you cannot escape from it.  It has to be something that strikes at your soul, not your character.  What this means is that if evil is going to be associated with EVE at all, it is going to be associated with what goes in in the metagame, which is outside the developer's control.

Those who have experienced evil are no longer playing.  We are talking about the ones who are griefed to the point of crying on teamspeak, and having the recording put on the internet for all to see, hear, and laugh at.  Evil is not anything that can be simulated in a virtual world, because evil is when that virtual world starts to resemble a nightmare so real, and deeply troubling, that the real world is actually much more preferable.

What the theologians and philosophers understood about evil is that it is not a natural force, that can be explained in natural, cause and effect terms.  It is a supernatural force, that is feared, avoided, and hated specifically because there is no way to cause it, prevent it, predict it, or control it.

Which is why those designers with a lot more experience in these matters, like Raph Koster, do not design games, or virtual worlds with a thought on how to encourage evil.  They know all too well that evil is not something that needs encouragement.  It will appear no matter how many precautions are made against it.

Nature of Evil !? Give me a break!

Evil is such an antiquated term.

There is no evil - just morality and something that is breaking the rules of morality is deemed "evil"
And since the rules of morality are flexible and indeed are also geographically diferent - so is "what is evil"

For one - killing 20 infidel children is a noble thing , while for other clubbing baby seals is just fine ...

So one day when some alien civilisation arrives on Earth and starts exterminating humans - would we call them evil ?
Or perhaps diferent?

Or even would we go in front of millions of TV wievers and call another country "Evil" and even use it as excuse for a war ?? This actually happens in todays world!?!?


So keep your moral standards high - and dont fall into the evil...

no wait , just keep your moral standards high

A nice summary with a lot of very interesting stuff in it. Now if CCP can put their ideas into the game....

I doubt I'll be able to ever stop playing

Some girl need to give big hug for Beatnik59. He needs it. Anyone?

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

What the theologians and philosophers understood about evil is that it is not a natural force, that can be explained in natural, cause and effect terms. 

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And what you fail to understand about philosphers and theologians is that they are a varied group, and have many, many different opinions about this topic and others.

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Originally posted by WARCRYtm
They are not goig to upgrade graficd on revelations I ?

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If the test server has got anything to say, it seems like they are going to upgrade the graphics.  Or at least its going to be a gradual introduction

While the graphics are not getting the overhaul in the first release, the 'engine' itself (client) has been tweaked and improved drastically.

An example:

On RMR (Red Moon Rising, current dragon branch client)
the fps on a low end nvidia quaddro video card in space near a station is:  4-10fps.
(this is a crappy machine for games, thus the bad fps.)

On the exact same client with the Revelations test client in same location with same ship/station the fps clocks in at 29fps.

This is a huge difference, and if it hold for release, will give even the low end hardware a nice boost.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

Evil knows no "cancel subscription" button.  Or an "quit session" command.  Since these two things are in any MMO, evil cannot be something programmers and developers can coordinate, facilitate, understand, or control.

You can find evil, and be evil anywhere, and in any mmo.  Here is a good example of something that was seen as "evil" in World of Warcraft, and pay special attention to the board comments.

Reynir Hardarson's analysis of evil as a design challenge only shows why engineers and computer programmers will always do a bad job at understanding these metaphysical questions.  Because as any philosopher or theologian will tell you, if true evil existed in EVE, then nobody would play EVE, much less pay for it.

You see, for something to be evil, it has to be something that is so horrible that you want to escape from it, yet you cannot escape from it.  It has to be something that strikes at your soul, not your character.  What this means is that if evil is going to be associated with EVE at all, it is going to be associated with what goes in in the metagame, which is outside the developer's control.

Those who have experienced evil are no longer playing.  We are talking about the ones who are griefed to the point of crying on teamspeak, and having the recording put on the internet for all to see, hear, and laugh at.  Evil is not anything that can be simulated in a virtual world, because evil is when that virtual world starts to resemble a nightmare so real, and deeply troubling, that the real world is actually much more preferable.

What the theologians and philosophers understood about evil is that it is not a natural force, that can be explained in natural, cause and effect terms.  It is a supernatural force, that is feared, avoided, and hated specifically because there is no way to cause it, prevent it, predict it, or control it.

Which is why those designers with a lot more experience in these matters, like Raph Koster, do not design games, or virtual worlds with a thought on how to encourage evil.  They know all too well that evil is not something that needs encouragement.  It will appear no matter how many precautions are made against it.

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How evil does a thing have to be to be evil? It's no use in defining it outside of our consciousness, because there is nothing there. This "supernatural" talk has no substance. When our sun swallows the Earth it will not be evil, although it will probably be the most horrendous thing ever to happen to it. It just happens. But we can make it so through our consciousness (or whoever's consciousness will be here when the time comes).


Of course you play with evil. It's nonsense that you "wouldn't if it was really there", because we are.

It's a self defeating comment to first say that facilitating evil in game design is impossible, but then go on to say that those that have experienced it are no longer playing and that a more experienced designer like Raph Koster gets around it by not designing it into the equation. That argument goes in a circle and should not be uttered by a single individual. That's just evil!

Evil does not exist as an entity, but we are able to think of it abstractly. Evil is human and you must apply it in order for it to happen. And people fear its application, not evil itself - Fear of evil is the real evil.

I think it is obvious that evil can be applied in your mind and a really good game designer can probably facilitate it in a game. Reynir Hardarson's presentation is confusing to a lot of people, perhaps because there was a lack of direct context, but I have a suspicion that he is going somewhere with this, and nobody has been there before.

Should it frighten me? Is it evil? Is it wearing a miniskirt?

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Originally posted by BlushWound

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

Evil knows no "cancel subscription" button.  Or an "quit session" command.  Since these two things are in any MMO, evil cannot be something programmers and developers can coordinate, facilitate, understand, or control.

You can find evil, and be evil anywhere, and in any mmo.  Here is a good example of something that was seen as "evil" in World of Warcraft, and pay special attention to the board comments.

Reynir Hardarson's analysis of evil as a design challenge only shows why engineers and computer programmers will always do a bad job at understanding these metaphysical questions.  Because as any philosopher or theologian will tell you, if true evil existed in EVE, then nobody would play EVE, much less pay for it.

You see, for something to be evil, it has to be something that is so horrible that you want to escape from it, yet you cannot escape from it.  It has to be something that strikes at your soul, not your character.  What this means is that if evil is going to be associated with EVE at all, it is going to be associated with what goes in in the metagame, which is outside the developer's control.

Those who have experienced evil are no longer playing.  We are talking about the ones who are griefed to the point of crying on teamspeak, and having the recording put on the internet for all to see, hear, and laugh at.  Evil is not anything that can be simulated in a virtual world, because evil is when that virtual world starts to resemble a nightmare so real, and deeply troubling, that the real world is actually much more preferable.

What the theologians and philosophers understood about evil is that it is not a natural force, that can be explained in natural, cause and effect terms.  It is a supernatural force, that is feared, avoided, and hated specifically because there is no way to cause it, prevent it, predict it, or control it.

Which is why those designers with a lot more experience in these matters, like Raph Koster, do not design games, or virtual worlds with a thought on how to encourage evil.  They know all too well that evil is not something that needs encouragement.  It will appear no matter how many precautions are made against it.

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How evil does a thing have to be to be evil? It's no use in defining it outside of our consciousness, because there is nothing there. This "supernatural" talk has no substance. When our sun swallows the Earth it will not be evil, although it will probably be the most horrendous thing ever to happen to it. It just happens. But we can make it so through our consciousness (or whoever's consciousness will be here when the time comes).


Of course you play with evil. It's nonsense that you "wouldn't if it was really there", because we are.

It's a self defeating comment to first say that facilitating evil in game design is impossible, but then go on to say that those that have experienced it are no longer playing and that a more experienced designer like Raph Koster gets around it by not designing it into the equation. That argument goes in a circle and should not be uttered by a single individual. That's just evil!

Evil does not exist as an entity, but we are able to think of it abstractly. Evil is human and you must apply it in order for it to happen. And people fear its application, not evil itself - Fear of evil is the real evil.

I think it is obvious that evil can be applied in your mind and a really good game designer can probably facilitate it in a game. Reynir Hardarson's presentation is confusing to a lot of people, perhaps because there was a lack of direct context, but I have a suspicion that he is going somewhere with this, and nobody has been there before.

Should it frighten me? Is it evil? Is it wearing a miniskirt?

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Evil is not a cognitive function, nor is it a concept that can be ascertained by scientific method.  It is not anything that has any natural explaination, or causal explaination.  If evil were ascertainable by reason, then it would no longer be evil, but a fact without any value judgement whatsoever.

Yes, it is true that this "supernatural" concept has no substance.  That is exactly why evil is so terrifying.  When our Sun swallows up the Earth, that can, in no possible way, be considered evil by anyone, because we know about it, can predict it, know that there is no malevolent intent, and maybe even avoid it.

Now if all the sudden, a black hole ripped open at the edge of our solar system, without warning or cause, that would be evil.  Evil is the cosmic Murphy's Law.  It is the thing that happens to us when we say to ourselves, "what did I do to deserve this?"  Evil has it in for us, and we can never know why, because if we knew why, then we would be able to avoid it.

That doesn't stop us from trying to ascertain how to prevent evil before it strikes, because once it strikes, it is too late to do anything about it.  Therefore, if people decide that evil follows in the footsteps of half naked women, then people will make sure that the women are fully clothed.  But it is not because the women who are half naked are evil, or do evil.  It is because evil is so against the natural order of things, that if it can be prevented in any way, it needs to be done.

The real thorny thing about evil though, is that it is far smarter than human beings give it credit for.  If it was as easy as making sure that all evil could be avoided by making sure all women were fully clothed, then we would have abolished evil long ago.  However, thinkers about the nature of evil from St. Luke, to Goethe, to Hannah Arendt have all realized that evil is far smarter than human beings give it credit for, and it arises from the very places where we consider safe, and good.

That is why I disagree that the "fear of evil is the real evil."  The real evil, in my estimation, is when we do not fear evil enough, and we are considered safe from it, or believe we have mastered it.  That is when evil usually has its worst affects, because it takes us totally by suprise, and shows us how very little our knowledge and innovations can protect us.

Now I guess evil enters my game, but it is nothing that has to do with good game design.  It has to do with when the game design fails me.  For example, if I log in, and all my stuff is missing, and the GMs are unable or unwilling to concede that there is anything wrong, I have suffered evil.  If I am "pwning" a boss monster, and just as I am about to kill it, I and my party crash out, and I log back in dead, then I have suffered evil.  Evil is an injustice of the cosmic order that can in no way be considered fun, but the deliberate undermining of my fun, by forces beyond my control.

Would you not consider those things I have described to be evil?  Now, given what true MMORPG evil looks like, would you really want to pay to experience an evil game that was like the Greek myth of Tantalus in the underworld, reaching for achievement, but at the moment where victory was at hand, having it count for naught?

That is what Reynir Hardarson has to simulate in EVE, for it to be evil.  Which means that he has to turn Tranquility into a malevolent force, out to undermine all that is good about playing EVE.  Noobs have to be able to be pwned without justice from CONCORD.  Flames and taunts have to be able to go unpunished on the forums.  Whole stacks of ore have to disappear without rhyme or reason.  Petitions for justice to be done have to go unanswered by CS, or better yet, CS needs to put curses on those who ask for justice, and do justice.

Now tell me, would you want to play in a game like that?  Not me.

That is why this talk about evil is just misguided.  It sounds all trendy, like CCP are some counter cultural warriors out to create new innovations in MMO morality, going against the tide, because they are young, fresh, unafraid, and ambitious.  Just like Faust, who thought he could master evil.

However, whatever evil they come up with, will never feel like real evil, and will never simulate real evil.  In order to really simulate evil, EVE would have to be so unjust, and so unpredictable, that nobody would willingly choose to play it.

 

 

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

*** Sniped the first part for sanity sake***

Now I guess evil enters my game, but it is nothing that has to do with good game design.  It has to do with when the game design fails me.  For example, if I log in, and all my stuff is missing, and the GMs are unable or unwilling to concede that there is anything wrong, I have suffered evil.  If I am "pwning" a boss monster, and just as I am about to kill it, I and my party crash out, and I log back in dead, then I have suffered evil.  Evil is an injustice of the cosmic order that can in no way be considered fun, but the deliberate undermining of my fun, by forces beyond my control.

Neither of those are "Evil", well maybe the second one and only if it was stolen with in game within the rules of the game. If the missing equipment was lost in the database then thats was bad server design/or a database admin that misflags a setting. If the customer service can't do anything about it that either poor traking tools for them or well just poor CS. neither is Evil. The Disconnects would not be Evil either just poor luck, not much you can do there, in fact in any online game you should expect the occasional drop in case one of the links goes down and doesn't get redistributed in time to prevent a drop.

Would you not consider those things I have described to be evil?  Now, given what true MMORPG evil looks like, would you really want to pay to experience an evil game that was like the Greek myth of Tantalus in the underworld, reaching for achievement, but at the moment where victory was at hand, having it count for naught?

So I guess I wouldn't consider them to be evil. well unless the first was a player thieft or some malicious bastard unplugged the main network node to the server. Dumb/bad luck is not Evil, its just dumb luck.

That is what Reynir Hardarson has to simulate in EVE, for it to be evil.  Which means that he has to turn Tranquility into a malevolent force, out to undermine all that is good about playing EVE.  Noobs have to be able to be pwned without justice from CONCORD.  Flames and taunts have to be able to go unpunished on the forums.  Whole stacks of ore have to disappear without rhyme or reason.  Petitions for justice to be done have to go unanswered by CS, or better yet, CS needs to put curses on those who ask for justice, and do justice.

No what Reynir means is that unlike other game they allow people to steal from you, allow you to hunt them down and harrass/kill them, and generally play the evil bastard of the universe. Now the one forum edoes have alot of Flaming going on between player factions, and guess what its the Alliance channel that is where that is supposed to happen. Whole stacks of Ore rarely disappear with out reason(another player taking them), and well yeah I still hate the issue with jet cans being used as bait but well as much as there is those who will use it to "pwn" newbies, there is also people like me who will go use those tactics to kill the idiots who are doing it.

Now tell me, would you want to play in a game like that?  Not me.

That is why this talk about evil is just misguided.  It sounds all trendy, like CCP are some counter cultural warriors out to create new innovations in MMO morality, going against the tide, because they are young, fresh, unafraid, and ambitious.  Just like Faust, who thought he could master evil.

However, whatever evil they come up with, will never feel like real evil, and will never simulate real evil.  In order to really simulate evil, EVE would have to be so unjust, and so unpredictable, that nobody would willingly choose to play it.

 Personnelly I don't agree with what you think is Evil, If a Piano fell on my head as I was walking through a open field; I would not consider that Evil, unless someone shoved it out of the plane with the direct intent to cause me or someone harm. For me the Piano is not Evil nor is the action of it hitting me; The person and his action of shoving it outto hurt someone is, due to the malicous intent behind the act.

To use your Black hole bit, that got snipped for lenght of the post. the black hole is not Evil, it would be a random event that even though it would cause well the earth destruction its not Evil. Unless the Black hole is able to make concious desicions and wants to swallow the earth specifically, then there is no malicous intention and hence not evil.

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<3 CCP

They have my eternal loyalty. Praise the Developers that release patches the size of epansions ABSOLUTELY FREE!

Evil in a mmog is something that a player does that is considered evil by some group of players. Other players might think it to be an okay thing.
Same thing goes for real life. For some societies chopping someone's hands off for stealing would be considered an evil act, yet in other societies it the right thing to do.

The feeling I'm getting from Reynir's words are more in line with the story, the role-playing rather than the normal every day evil of players using the game mechanics to full extent (how can you really be evil in WoW? It's nothing but a bunch of cartoonish characters getting beat by other cartoonish characters - like Tom & Jerry).

This "evil" is something that might be incorporated into the game so players can directly influence it - take part of it or stand against it. Amarr for example allow slaves whilst the other races are against it.
Being "evil" isn't necessarily being evil to other players by "stealing their stuff" or "gate camping them". It would be more in the terms of genocide, enslaving, tyranny, etc.

The act of a black hole swallowing up our planet would only be an "evil" act if it was done intentionally - by the eyes of us Terrans. Neccessary evil, accidentically evil - there are all kinds of terms for evil. The fact is that evil, or good, is an ever changing term with no actual definition.
Trying to incorporate good and evil into a computer game is always a, err, good thing. Because in truth, mmogs are nothing but a study on social interaction and possibilities. Most mmogs only allow you to play the "good" side (or rather, the right side) and you never really impact the game world/storyline with your actions - be they good or evil.

I believe that Reynir wants to try and make good and evil done by players affect the game or story, however fuzzy their definitions are. At least, that is what I am hoping for.

Wake up and smell the future, those WoW-like click-frency hack'n'slash games with no real storyline substance are things that are best kept in old and dusty tombs.

Ok, no upgraded graphics yet. No problem, they look great anyway. But what about support for duel core machines and duel graphics cards. I've had both for a year now and Eve doesn't seem to take advantage of them, although my fps's range from 180 to  --- well none in fleet battles.

I would like to see my second graphics card heat up, that's what it's there for.

Without following suit in the pretentious brouhaha of the posters above, here's my opinion on Reynir's talk.

I think he meant something a lot simpler when he talked about evil in games. What he tried to say was that evil is a defining concept in communities. And that a game development company would remove part of the potential for meaningful communities forming by limiting actions of players with the sole goal of preventing "evil acts".

People unite against evil. People feel the need to fight evil. People feel their actions matter if evil is being fought. And an evil is only worth fighting if it's other people doing it. Fighting 'evil' npc's is meaningless. Fighting a player that is behaving in a way that other players consider evil is meaningful, especially if the developers of the game refuse to intervene.

Being able to log out of the game doesn't change the fact that it's evil. Doesn't evil exist in foreign countries, just because you can go home after your holiday? Is evil only 'real evil' if it pertains to flesh and blood human beings?

I think acts, in whatever context can be truly evil. And just like God or Allah not interfering when we slaughter and maim people of other cultures, CCP takes the stance of not interfering when evil is visited upon their customers. They provide for a world that's consistent and sufficiently real to allow players to set their own order, protect their own weak and fight their evil counterparts on their own terms.

No matter how (un)succesful they have been sofar, I think this is a laudable standpoint and it shows how CCP remains to be one of the most promising producers of MMO's. I have great hopes for the World of Darkness they will be starting work on soon and I love what they have achieved in EVE Online sofar.

It is difficult to read about the vauge additions that are in Revelations I.  Will graphics be upgraded?  I would hope so.  I believe that the new ships will be added, so it seems safe to assume that the graphics will be upgraded as well.  As I see the examples of old and new ships it is so amazing how old the engine looks in reguards to the beautiful planets and spacescapes. 

I think it would very unfair to make us wait until 2007 for graphics upgrades!  But if it's not ready it's not ready.  :/

 

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Originally posted by Bendrix

It is difficult to read about the vauge additions that are in Revelations I.  Will graphics be upgraded?  I would hope so.  I believe that the new ships will be added, so it seems safe to assume that the graphics will be upgraded as well.  As I see the examples of old and new ships it is so amazing how old the engine looks in reguards to the beautiful planets and spacescapes. 

I think it would very unfair to make us wait until 2007 for graphics upgrades!  But if it's not ready it's not ready.  :/

 

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The new ships being added have the new textures, but no shaders, they still look awesome though.

The thing you have to remember is there are about 400-odd ships in EVE and every single one of them have to be redone in 2-million polygons and then 4-5000 polygon versions. That's a hell of a lot of modelling work, it's gonna take awhile. On top of that they also have to do wrecks too.

Well when you put it that way...!

I forgot that they are doing the ships twice.  You are right, that is an amazing undertaking.  I'm glad to hear that the new ships will be done in the new textures.  Can't wait to see them flying!  Just having some new ships to toy around with will be a great way to pass the time until dx9 is out.  Does anyone have a fav new ship?