I like the crafting system they have but would like to see it changed to random item types. Meaning that if I craft a rifle 10 times it will have different stats or buffs 8 or so out of the 10. Only thing I want in a game with crafting anymore. This would make it so that one of the items could be more valuable to a certain player type than others. I really liked how AC2 did their crafting it was like this to a point, not sure if AC was the same or not.

Originally posted by Bruise187

I like the crafting system they have but would like to see it changed to random item types. Meaning that if I craft a rifle 10 times it will have different stats or buffs 8 or so out of the 10. Only thing I want in a game with crafting anymore.

Yeah I think thats the biggest thing for most people, I think everyone was hoping for a little more "randomness" in the crafting.  Higher level players should be able to craft better low level items, etc, etc.  That would be my only gripe as a sole crafter, the only real advantage I get is that I can craft items much earlier then other players.

I pretty much agree with this article. It's a good summary of current crafting issues and how they might improve in the future.

I agree with the point that every crafting skill probably shouldn't be based on the same 75% intelligence 25% perception formula.

Also the point that everyone seems to be able to make whatever they might need, and so fewer people wind up buying from each other.

Originally posted by heremypet

I agree with the point that every crafting skill probably shouldn't be based on the same 75% intelligence 25% perception formula.

Also the point that everyone seems to be able to make whatever they might need, and so fewer people wind up buying from each other.

I don't agree entirely with that, I mean,  I do think they should add special bonuses to items that are crafted with a required secondary... like any crafter can craft a sword but a crafter with a high melee skill can craft a sword with extra bonuses.. this leaves the door open for certain crafters to create base items, or items that people can later go to specialized crafters to modify... ... just my thoughts...

If someone goes all crating or specifically crafting there should be some benefit to doing os.  Like being able to craft everything or items that non-crafting centric players cannot.

Mayhap just allow crafting specific builds be able to control the stats they put on items whereas others cannot.

Yeah you guys hawe a good point that would be a + for crafters, But dont forget this game has only been out for a Month there are still stuff too be added in the near future like the Construction addon that has been talked about mutch this few weeks be able to build buildings,houses ect, and new Sectors

And lvl cap i still only ath 45 and it will be raised to lvl 150 soo i think its Too early to say anything we dont know what the Devs know and i dont think they make the game less good as it is now they will only be adding more stuff but you guys got a good point

 What the hell is up with MMORPG writing these passive aggressive reviews where they admit the game is the most exciting and original thing out there, but then spend most of the article picking away at it.

You admit it's one of the most ambitious and extensive crafting systems in an MMO. You say it breathes new life into MMORPG crafting. Then you start whining about it needing polish and bells and whistles.

Here's what you don't know. Fallen Earth has a smaller, faster community and development team than most games. They are constantly improving and adding to the game, sometimes twice a week.

What you are reviewing is the framework that's been laid for a fantastic game, not the final word on what Fallen Earth crafting will end up like.

I hope to see the game thrive, and new content added to the remaining SEVEN planned zones. If you keep hammering on Icarus as if it has the budget of Aion or Funcom, which are out of touch and slow moving as a result of their own bloat, it might not ever grow into the potential that real gamers see in it.

In closing, gentlemen, Paul Cox should eat a bowl of them.

Thank you.

The crafting system itself in FE is one of my favorite ones of all time, but I also agree with the above posters...having random stats on the items would make it all the better.

I really hope Fallen Earth makes it and has a chance to mature. It is a gem of a game.

Good article.

First let me say I love the crafting system that FE has currently. For my entertainment, it is far better than any MMO I've played since SWG:PreNGE.

That stated, there are some things I'd like to see different. Take note I personally don't know how difficult it would be to implement them (I'm leaning toward it certainly not being easy, lol), but I'd like to see them anyway.

1) Resources having stats that factor into the quality of the item made.

2) Item degradation via use.

3) Items taking a noticeable hit to overall quality (which starts at 100) when repaired by repair kits. As an example, if my weapon degrades  from 100 quality to 25 (or any number above the minimum needed to work) and I use a repair kit on it, the new max is now 90. Repair it again and it is now 80. Some variation on this idea that makes repair kits a temporary quick fix but not a crutch.

4) With #1 in mind, npcs only sell "stock" items. These items are surpassed in "power" by player made ones that have only the smallest of better stat materials put into their making.

5) The ability to write inscriptions on player made items, ala Asheron's Call.

5) The ability to write inscriptions on player made items, ala Asheron's Call

That was another one of the things I liked from AC2 that they took from AC. Putting a sig on an item or a quote on it. I wish I could remember the Sig I seen on Quingu's drum he had but it was the best one I seen of any game so far. If you played and seen it let me now what it was again.

Originally posted by motogonzo

 What the hell is up with MMORPG writing these passive aggressive reviews where they admit the game is the most exciting and original thing out there, but then spend most of the article picking away at it.

You admit it's one of the most ambitious and extensive crafting systems in an MMO. You say it breathes new life into MMORPG crafting. Then you start whining about it needing polish and bells and whistles.

Here's what you don't know. Fallen Earth has a smaller, faster community and development team than most games. They are constantly improving and adding to the game, sometimes twice a week.

What you are reviewing is the framework that's been laid for a fantastic game, not the final word on what Fallen Earth crafting will end up like.

I hope to see the game thrive, and new content added to the remaining SEVEN planned zones. If you keep hammering on Icarus as if it has the budget of Aion or Funcom, which are out of touch and slow moving as a result of their own bloat, it might not ever grow into the potential that real gamers see in it.

In closing, gentlemen, Paul Cox should eat a bowl of them.

 

Thank you.

Wow, so, did you even read the title of the article you're complaining about? Just because something is interesting, innovative and deserves praise doesn't mean it's perfect and can't be constructively criticized.

Second, this wasn't a review of the game, it was an article focusing on a specific system (hence the System Focus Title)

Third, what part of Crafting is good, but could it be better is confusing? The author never said the system as it is sucks. He never said that there wasn't a good framework there. He never said the system wouldn't change.

So, I suggest calming down, and re-reading the article with that in mind.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

2) Item degradation via use.

 

This is one thing I don't fully agree with. On one hand you do please the crafter, as well as give him a full fledged purpose. However at the expense of someone else and their belongings. Maybe if say the item didn't completely die (SWG), I could agree but making me spend millions every few weeks on a weapon (that is up to standard) is something I don't want to go through again.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr    ...  Good crafting ideas

That is pretty much spot on how I want crafting to be in any MMOG that I play. Crafted items be on par or better than loot drop and vendor items.  I would also like to see there be some form of experimentation and research implemented in there. One thing that I disagree with that most people are calling for is randomization. A little randomization is good, but I demand more control over what I craft... Besides, don't get me started on the RNG crutch that all developers seem to love using.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

2) Item degradation via use.

 

 

This is one thing I don't fully agree with. On one hand you do please the crafter, as well as give him a full fledged purpose. However at the expense of someone else and their belongings. Maybe if say the item didn't completely die (SWG), I could agree but making me spend millions every few weeks on a weapon (that is up to standard) is something I don't want to go through again.

Millions? That'd have to be one heckuva weapon, lol! I can see where you'd want to not be in a situation where you'd not have a weapon. So I'm not against the idea of not having it eventually completely crumble, but once you have repaired it down to where it repairs to say a few points over it's minimum "able to function" value, I'd like to see some negatives incurred with it's use. There has to be "something" that nudges the owner to purchase a better/more complete item in order to keep the economy rolling and transactions happening. Making it so that noone has to ever buy another weapon again because of repair kits is less than ideal in my mind.

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by Khalathwyr    ...  Good crafting ideas

That is pretty much spot on how I want crafting to be in any MMOG that I play. Crafted items be on par or better than loot drop and vendor items.  I would also like to see there be some form of experimentation and research implemented in there. One thing that I disagree with that most people are calling for is randomization. A little randomization is good, but I demand more control over what I craft... Besides, don't get me started on the RNG crutch that all developers seem to love using.

If we're talking about on the final combine, I'd have to agree that I don't think I'd like randomization either. I like it in scavenging materials, both on the type of materials and any stat system assigned to those raw materials. The experimentation system in SWG was a nice touch I thought. Wouldn't mind seeing it here too.

Simple question: Why does there have to be an economy?

I've played MMOs that are balls fun without them having any real economy. 

Don't get me wrong, I played SWG and had fun as a pure crafter -- but it also created a lot of problems (ship crafters gouging other players for one, leading devs to offer free spaceships, etc).

Faction items should never be better than crafted items.  Please have faction items that can not be crafted so that both systems have value.

All  crafting recipes should require items that can ONLY be gathered from doing combat.  This allows the fighters to sell items to the non fighters.

All crafting recipes should require items that can ONLY be gathered.  This allows the gathers to have their own tasks to do.

Every recipe should require at least one or more crafted items from a lower tier, except for the starting tier.  This allows for reuse of some of the grinding parts AND it help the lower level crafters.  They can sell to higher level crafters.  It also keeps the price of resources from getting to low.

Every game should have an Employment Agency to help crafters find work from other players.  There are lots of times that I would be happy to do a job if I knew the job needed done.

NEVER, EVER, set up a game where one player can learn ALL the crafting skills.  JOATS KILL THE ECONOMY.  At the most, a player  should only be allowed to learn 1/3 of the all the crafting skills.

FE crafting is recipe based.  It's an extensive list of recipes but at the end still the same old mechanics.  I want to see a system where my decisions as a crafter effect the outcome. 

For example: Right now guns in FE are made from a barrell, stock, action, and scope.  Everytime you make the gun you combine the same parts into the same exact gun.  What I would like is the choice of a half dozen differenct stocks, actions etc each with slightly different effects.  So I would have the choice of picking an action with reduced recoil, or holding more ammo, or reduced reload time etc.  Combining 4 different gun parts with ammo (assuming 4 choices each) is 1024 different guns prior to any rare materials or crit crafting you want to add in.  More importantly then the number if items is I want a decision making role in what I am crafting other then its the higherst level gun I can craft/use. 

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by Khalathwyr    ...  Good crafting ideas

That is pretty much spot on how I want crafting to be in any MMOG that I play. Crafted items be on par or better than loot drop and vendor items.  I would also like to see there be some form of experimentation and research implemented in there. One thing that I disagree with that most people are calling for is randomization. A little randomization is good, but I demand more control over what I craft... Besides, don't get me started on the RNG crutch that all developers seem to love using.

 

If we're talking about on the final combine, I'd have to agree that I don't think I'd like randomization either. I like it in scavenging materials, both on the type of materials and any stat system assigned to those raw materials. The experimentation system in SWG was a nice touch I thought. Wouldn't mind seeing it here too.

Yes that's exactly what I am talking about...

Originally posted by Cerion

Simple question: Why does there have to be an economy? 

I've played MMOs that are balls fun without them having any real economy.  

Don't get me wrong, I played SWG and had fun as a pure crafter -- but it also created a lot of problems (ship crafters gouging other players for one, leading devs to offer free spaceships, etc). 

A good crafting system and a player-driven economy go hand in hand, they compliment each other... You can have one without the other, but what would be the point? What's the downside?

Difficult stuff to balance and to avoid unintended (bad) consequences. Whatever Icarus do I hope they act slowly.

The self-sustain crafting angle is one I personally really enjoy, mostly because it fits the setting. In the FE world it makes absolute sense to be scavenging, and to be doing and learning crafting, because it is a harsh, violent world where even a postal system struggles to exist. You never know when you have to depend on yourself and yourself alone.

I know that I am not being popular here, but I'd be happy if Icarus does NOT make changes to the game to force the existence of pure crafters. That is, I think depending on other players for crafting should remain optional. I do think that there could be a nice link between build and crafting expertise. For example, an advanced pistoleer type character that has also invested in crafting ought to have an advantage when crafting pistols. That would fit with the current "philosophy" but add a little more depth to the crafting system.

I also think this debate is too early. Let's see how the economy goes with Icarus's initial vision, and then debates about tinkering with the crafting system can be based on better information?

Originally posted by Mickle

Faction items should never be better than crafted items.  Please have faction items that can not be crafted so that both systems have value.

 

All  crafting recipes should require items that can ONLY be gathered from doing combat.  This allows the fighters to sell items to the non fighters.

 

All crafting recipes should require items that can ONLY be gathered.  This allows the gathers to have their own tasks to do.

 

Every recipe should require at least one or more crafted items from a lower tier, except for the starting tier.  This allows for reuse of some of the grinding parts AND it help the lower level crafters.  They can sell to higher level crafters.  It also keeps the price of resources from getting to low.

 

Every game should have an Employment Agency to help crafters find work from other players.  There are lots of times that I would be happy to do a job if I knew the job needed done.

 

NEVER, EVER, set up a game where one player can learn ALL the crafting skills.  JOATS KILL THE ECONOMY.  At the most, a player  should only be allowed to learn 1/3 of the all the crafting skills.

 

 

 

I agree with what Mick said with 2 addiions.
 

1:All items Eventually(this is a fine edge to to get) Decay to 0, ie, useless.

B:Varying qualities in crafting resources that allows "The Best" items craftable to change every month or so.

Some good suggestions in this thread. But mostly imo :

- No more repair kits

- No more NPC vendors : let the crafters / scavengers open up a player driver economy

- Full item decay

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

2) Item degradation via use.

 

 

This is one thing I don't fully agree with. On one hand you do please the crafter, as well as give him a full fledged purpose. However at the expense of someone else and their belongings. Maybe if say the item didn't completely die (SWG), I could agree but making me spend millions every few weeks on a weapon (that is up to standard) is something I don't want to go through again.

Millions? That'd have to be one heckuva weapon, lol! I can see where you'd want to not be in a situation where you'd not have a weapon. So I'm not against the idea of not having it eventually completely crumble, but once you have repaired it down to where it repairs to say a few points over it's minimum "able to function" value, I'd like to see some negatives incurred with it's use. There has to be "something" that nudges the owner to purchase a better/more complete item in order to keep the economy rolling and transactions happening. Making it so that noone has to ever buy another weapon again because of repair kits is less than ideal in my mind.

 

I like the idea of crafters playing a tad more like repair men TBH. Think smugglers in swg, charging for slicing etc... On top of crafting the items, repairing them could create a decent client/service dependance.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

2) Item degradation via use.

 

 

This is one thing I don't fully agree with. On one hand you do please the crafter, as well as give him a full fledged purpose. However at the expense of someone else and their belongings. Maybe if say the item didn't completely die (SWG), I could agree but making me spend millions every few weeks on a weapon (that is up to standard) is something I don't want to go through again.

Millions? That'd have to be one heckuva weapon, lol! I can see where you'd want to not be in a situation where you'd not have a weapon. So I'm not against the idea of not having it eventually completely crumble, but once you have repaired it down to where it repairs to say a few points over it's minimum "able to function" value, I'd like to see some negatives incurred with it's use. There has to be "something" that nudges the owner to purchase a better/more complete item in order to keep the economy rolling and transactions happening. Making it so that noone has to ever buy another weapon again because of repair kits is less than ideal in my mind.

 

I like the idea of crafters playing a tad more like repair men TBH. Think smugglers in swg, charging for slicing etc... On top of crafting the items, repairing them could create a decent client/service dependance.

Possibly. I'd rather see a mix of it, though, and not just one or the other. Sure, items suffer wear and tear and can be repaired a number of times. There comes a time, though, that all the duct tape and bailing wire in the world just can't fix it, and you need to buy a new one.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I like the idea of crafters playing a tad more like repair men TBH. Think smugglers in swg, charging for slicing etc... On top of crafting the items, repairing them could create a decent client/service dependance.

Possibly. I'd rather see a mix of it, though, and not just one or the other. Sure, items suffer wear and tear and can be repaired a number of times. There comes a time, though, that all the duct tape and bailing wire in the world just can't fix it, and you need to buy a new one.

As long as its at an acceptable rate, that would be alright. You do make a good point if going for realism, as they are. I just didn't like how fast items degraded in SWG, pay 10-20 mil for a stun baton and it dies in three weeks (bad repair attempt). Something didn't seem right about that lol. To make matters worse (inflation) to be competitive on bugfin, you needed a weapon in those price ranges.

During the time I was a fencer early pre-cu through cu. I spent so many damn credits lol. uhgg.

changes like full item decay and stuff like that wont  happen FE aim on WoW market I dont expect any change made there

The actual reason i lost interest was because of the crafting system.I joined in hopes of a great crafting system,but what i found was terrible  simplistic,i am not a WOW type player i don't like simplistic.

The biggest drawback is that you don't really craft,you just enter the items into a box and let time takes it's course.

Then to totally make it unrealistic you can literally run around while it auto crafts ,that is just to watered down for me to accept.This boils down to that old argument of casual vs hardcore.Things like"i haven't got time to sit and craft""I want to play the game not craft" it goes on and on,i have heard them all.What these type of hard headed people seem to forget is that no one makes you craft,why would any game cater to making a super cheap crafting system to cater to people who don't even like to craft?

That is not where it ends however.Before i joined i had hoped to find an exploratory type world.I hoped that you had to actually explore the world to find long lost recipes or rare items to be able to craft with.Instead what i saw was icons on my map showing nodes ,that is where i go to gather items.I had hoped the game world would have items laying around that i could pick up and use as a weapon or use them to craft with.I had hoped that all items had to be discovered,i don't like the fact the map literally holds your hand and says here is your node go there.

The Crafting system is just not in depth enough for my liking.I played EQ2 and thought the crafting originally was very good,yet could be advanced even further.I go back to the game to find out they dumbed it down i was very disappointed,another dev catering to people who don't even like to craft.To make a long story short,this game FE takes crafting a level lower yet,i just cannot accept it.Honestly is it even possible to make the crafting system any less interactive?

FE is too generic and too simplistic,the crafting is the part the game they "should" have put a ton more effort into,then this game would have been at least above average.I have other ideas that should have been implemented ,i just touched on the bare core of crafting,that was imo done low end,i like to use the term"like playing EVE".

I like the fact that if you put the points into perc/int you get max crafting ability... its a choice.. and you have to spend an awful lot of time, money, and resources getting the tradeskills at max capacity. There are quite a few people who would rather have someone else do the crafting for them even if you can do it while asleep.  It is nice to be self sufficient... even if you have make each craft a different stat, people will just open another account and make 6 different characters or whatever to ensure they are self sufficient.

I would like to see them allow you to put your name on items crafted and or a sig like AC as another poster said. The Auction House doesnt allow you to see who is selling the item, or who made it.. so that needs to be implemented soon.

there should be some way to add bonus stats onto the crafted items to make it more viable. It should be done similar to the ATV quest line where you have to spend a bit of time gaining the ability to add certain stats to the weapon. Maybe a different set of missions for +2 to str, another for +2 to coord etc...

resources are a pain to obtain mass amounts of an item, I would love for you to be able to obtain a rare item while scavenging ala eq2. So either have the rares add bonus to an item.. or have them make an elite armor piece. or weapon.

the crafting system has major potential... the time needed to make certain items like vehicles etc.. does tend to make the casual crafters stop crafting at the higher tiers.. so the dedicated have an advantage.  They just need to be able to differentiate themselves by having their names on their items, and being able to manipulate the items to have different stat boosts.

well i hope this game will only get better and better becouse this is the best mmorpg ive playd since SWG Pre Cu Nge

As the author of this article, I just want to take time out and say thank you to all of those that are responding and showing that they care about this topic.  I'm sorry if my article seemed to be nitpicking at the crafting system.  I just know that it could be more and anyone that makes 95% of all items craftable has some big ideas for crafting!  I have to say thank you again to those devs gms and anyone else involved in giving us fallen earth if they read this.  They have an absolute gem on there hands.  Just wait and see what happens when all the apocalypse movies come out.  I bet that fallen earth has a boost in members just from that. 

Originally posted by Ratticus

FE crafting is recipe based.  It's an extensive list of recipes but at the end still the same old mechanics.  I want to see a system where my decisions as a crafter effect the outcome. 

For example: Right now guns in FE are made from a barrell, stock, action, and scope.  Everytime you make the gun you combine the same parts into the same exact gun.  What I would like is the choice of a half dozen differenct stocks, actions etc each with slightly different effects.  So I would have the choice of picking an action with reduced recoil, or holding more ammo, or reduced reload time etc.  Combining 4 different gun parts with ammo (assuming 4 choices each) is 1024 different guns prior to any rare materials or crit crafting you want to add in.  More importantly then the number if items is I want a decision making role in what I am crafting other then its the higherst level gun I can craft/use. 

I would like something like this as well, as would a lot of people. I'm pretty sure the only reason an MMO hasn't really gotten this complex in crafting is just the amount of time it would take to test and balance all combinations. Like you said just 4 parts with 4 choices each is 1024 diff guns without even factoring in in the system uses rare stuff. Could you imagine the testing to balance all the weapons, guns, armor etc?

Originally posted by Wizardry

The actual reason i lost interest was because of the crafting system.I joined in hopes of a great crafting system,but what i found was terrible  simplistic,i am not a WOW type player i don't like simplistic.

The biggest drawback is that you don't really craft,you just enter the items into a box and let time takes it's course.

Then to totally make it unrealistic you can literally run around while it auto crafts ,that is just to watered down for me to accept.This boils down to that old argument of casual vs hardcore.Things like"i haven't got time to sit and craft""I want to play the game not craft" it goes on and on,i have heard them all.What these type of hard headed people seem to forget is that no one makes you craft,why would any game cater to making a super cheap crafting system to cater to people who don't even like to craft?

That is not where it ends however.Before i joined i had hoped to find an exploratory type world.I hoped that you had to actually explore the world to find long lost recipes or rare items to be able to craft with.Instead what i saw was icons on my map showing nodes ,that is where i go to gather items.I had hoped the game world would have items laying around that i could pick up and use as a weapon or use them to craft with.I had hoped that all items had to be discovered,i don't like the fact the map literally holds your hand and says here is your node go there.

The Crafting system is just not in depth enough for my liking.I played EQ2 and thought the crafting originally was very good,yet could be advanced even further.I go back to the game to find out they dumbed it down i was very disappointed,another dev catering to people who don't even like to craft.To make a long story short,this game FE takes crafting a level lower yet,i just cannot accept it.Honestly is it even possible to make the crafting system any less interactive?

FE is too generic and too simplistic,the crafting is the part the game they "should" have put a ton more effort into,then this game would have been at least above average.I have other ideas that should have been implemented ,i just touched on the bare core of crafting,that was imo done low end,i like to use the term"like playing EVE".

You know... I do agree with the overall gist of that post and it raises an interesting point that I've never really thought of, but yet makes sense... and possibly explains why so many newer MMOs are so shallow, leaving many players wanting for something "more".

Many devs these days don't seem to recognize crafting as being an equal activity to adventuring, or questing, or grinding mobs. And I think that could well be a reason why so many of the newer MMOs feel so shallow and watered down... For the most part, they only focus on the leveling aspect - be it through grinding mobs, or quests that are little more than an excuse to grind on mobs... Things like crafting, fishing, harvesting and so forth are treated like red-headed step-children, there only because they're kinda expected to be.

Here's the thing... There are people who truly *enjoy* crafting as an activity, on the same level as others might consider leveling/questing or even raiding. Those are the people who will spend days gathering mats and crafting away, because they enjoy the process. So why not give crafting the same level of involvement as Adventuring/leveling/raiding? Give those who *truly* enjoy crafting something they can really enjoy.

"What about those who like the idea of crafting to make money, but dont' want it to be that involved" you ask? Well, I would question those people if it's really the *crafting* they enjoy, or merely the end product that they want to use or sell? I'd wager in many cases, it's more the end result they're interested in; not the process of crafting itself...

I mean, let's face it... Crafting in WoW is *not* an involved process; you spend substantially more time and effort gathering the materials than you do actually making anything with them. Of all the people I've known who've played WoW (a lot), I can't think of a single one who's enjoyed the process of crafting in WoW... they just liked the money they made from it.

So what's to do with those folks? Well, they can become provisioners, supplying the materials and reagents the crafters need to make their crafts. They can collect the materials required for a weapon, or piece of armor and then hire a crafter to create that item for them. There's great money to be made in being a supplier like that... I know I've made great money in just about any MMO I've done it in. It's a great passive way to make money while I'm out exploring, questing or just grinding mobs for the heck of it. Go back to town when I'm done, list my goods on the AH and wait for the money to come in. Since there's an almost constant demand for crafting materials, it's quite lucrative.

The people who enjoy crafting can have a constant stream of materials without having to go out and harvest anything themselves (or at least not as often), the adventurers/questers get to make money on stuff they pick up while they're out doing their thing *and* can have better gear made for them without having to spend the time "grinding out" those crafting levels to make them themself...

Ya know... you just might see something resembling a player-driven economy arise out of it...

Same goes for things like Fishing... I think FFXI handled it great... It's a mini-game unto itself.. You have to actually *fight* the fish. Your fishing level, the type of rod and bait you're using, the type of water you're fishing in, the moon phase and, of course, the difficulty of the fish itself all come into play. I've gone a week at a time without ever killing a single mob in FFXI, because I was doing nothing but fishing, and having a great time.

So... yeah... I think it would be great if developers would look at things like crafting, harvesting, fishing, etc. as main activities and not merely token things to add because they're expected to be there.