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Fallen Earth Dev Journals: Wes Platt - Why Love the Sandbox?
Fallen Earth Designer, Wes Platt answers the question: Sandbox games have proven that they stand the test of time. Why do you think the sandbox model appeals to players even after all these years?
By Guest Writer on December 14, 2009
Sandbox games have proven that they stand the test of time. Why do you think the sandbox model appeals to players even after all these years?
What's not to like about a model that lets you shape the game to your own image and at your own pace? Games like this are great, in my opinion, because they're all about the journey rather than the destination. I'm notoriously slow at leveling in MMORPGs, like Fallen Earth, because of this particular quirk. It's also why I really love games that come with design toolkits, they make it possible to dabble in my own creations.
Some of the games that have been most appealing to me over the years provided the opportunity to just go out in the realm and, within certain parameters--the boundaries of the sandbox--do things to experiment with actions and consequences.
SimCity, Civilization, and Railroad Tycoon immediately come to mind as computer games that I absolutely loved for the simple fact that I could build my own city/empire/industrial transport company and take them in whatever direction I wanted. Through the process of trial and error, I learned which aspects worked better together than others. You want to put industrial and residential zones next to each other? Go for it, if you want nothing but slums! Sure, you can deal with a rival civilization's leader using diplomatic methods, but maybe it'd be more fun to ramp up military production and crush him beneath your boot heels instead. You can take your railroad on a straight path from one city to the next, tunneling through a huge mountain range at great expense in the short term, but maybe that saves you time and money over the long haul.
You might succeed. You might fail, collapsing into utter ruin. That sense of experimentation and risk without any real, lasting consequences played to my love of asking "What if?" and running with it. The worst that can happen, after all, is that you have to go back to a previous save point before you decided to embark on that dubious war against the enemy.
It may also be useful to consider that sandbox games are often more conducive to a broader audience because they're like books that you can pick up or put down as time allows. Or, if books aren't your thing, they're like DVDs or a show recorded on the DVR. You can freeze progress while you take a break to have dinner with the family or you can treat it like a fish bowl, let it run all night, and come back and see how things are going in the morning. The game isn't governed by clan raid schedules--no one's yelling at you over the headset to get to the instance while you're fussing with the baby. You're not necessarily coerced into playing through a linear storyline for hours on end to get to the next phase while you're thinking in the back of your mind: "I love the immersion and I want to slay that dragon, but I DO have to work in the morning."
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In the end, sandbox games become far more about the player, what they want to do, and how they want to affect the game worlds than they are about how great the game's design or dialogue might be--although it's a huge bonus when the game fosters that sense of sandboxiness while also providing a well-designed immersive experience.
They appeal to so many people after so long, I think, because no matter how old we get and how many games we play, there's still that mischievous/ambitious/inquisitive part of us that wants to build a castle out of sand and then pretend we're Godzilla, stomping all over the beach, yelling "RAWR!"
Good time for interview :)
The "social patch" (bars, camp/house crafting, better vehicle physics) should do much to add to this great sandbox!
Glad some people like it, as for me I deleted it off my pc hours after trying it. If this game is going to survive though they will need more than social patches to win over some fanbase.
Fallen earth a sandbox?
Lol not realy, and if so then its a poor attemp try to be one, nuff said.
When i play it i saw silly quest terible AI and guidance how to play it, i saw more themepark then sandbox.
Big dissapointment Fallen Earth:(
"all about the journey rather than the destination"
Great quote, but that applies to many games. In City of Heroes/Villains I turned off earning XP, slowing my leveling down just to complete all the story arcs. I've done most of the things the game has to offer and it is about enjoying the journey to lv50 than power leveling.
If EVE Online wasn't a ruthless PvP FFA I would have played that. But I don't see it working as well as anything other than a PvP FFA (yeah, it's a contradiction). In a sandbox game with multiple people there has to be a risk of loosing what you built. It keeps the economy going and makes things interesting.
I have an issue with the usage of the term sandbox when it comes to Fallen earth.
I've always followed what the devs of my favorite games said when it comes to labeling that game into what sub genre.
For the last couple months all i've heard is how the devs say FE is a hybrid, now here they call it a sandbox.
Which is it?
If this guy says its a sandbox even with 5 thousand quests and a endgame then so be it but please for the love of god stop changing your description of FE!
Officially FE is a sandbox because this guy says so and he knows better than all of us cause he made his game.
metalhead - While I see what your saying about them changing their description, it has always been more of a "sandbox" feel (in terms of a non-instanced, open, classless world. They are also using "hybrid" to descibe it, because unlike some sandboxes (EVE comes to mind) it has appeal to people who also like "themepark MMO's"
As much as I like FE, it aint no sandbox. It has sandbox elements and it could one day become one but the mechanics simply arnt there yet. To truely be sandbox there has to be mechanics in place that allow and promote open ended end game and currently that just isn't there.
But as it stands it is just the sandbox with hardly any sand. The quests etc are all good (and imo top rate, probably because of the open world which is a must for me) but for true lovers of sandbox they are kind of just fluff. It takes a lot of time and thought to produce a worth while open end game with many different elements for players to build upon.
In this interveiw they didn't call FE a sandbox. It was more about sandboxes in general, with the refrenced games being simcity, railroad tycoon, and civilization.
In this interveiw they didn't call FE a sandbox. It was more about sandboxes in general, with the refrenced games being simcity, railroad tycoon, and civilization.
This is true and I was going to point it out but he does infer quite heavily that FE is amongst them,
"What's not to like about a model that lets you shape the game to your own image and at your own pace? Games like this are great, in my opinion, because they're all about the journey rather than the destination. I'm notoriously slow at leveling in MMORPGs, like Fallen Earth, because of this particular quirk."
But I do agree, it seems their goal or final aim with the game is to incorporate this sort of game play into the world which they have currently.
The only mention of FE in that article is when the dev says he's notoriously slow at leveling in MMOs (such as Fallen Earth). Otherwise it's an opinion piece.
The article is simply a question posed to a developer, it could have been some dude from WoW just as easily. MMORPG.com however has implied FE is the subject of the article by including FE pictures in the body of the text.
That's where the misinterpretation lies.
Sandbox or themepark, it isn't black and white, all or nothing. Please, people, have some subtlety to your thinking. Sandbox to themepark is a spectrum of game play.
And on that spectrum, Fallen Earth leans toward sandbox. It gets one of the major problems of early SWG right, namely, there is CONTENT in the form of quests.
Now people like to cite these quests, or missions, as some how non-sandboxey. And yet EVE, that so-called exemplar of Sandboxiness, has missions galore.
So yeah, Fallen Earth is sandbox, and they are adding more sandbox elements as the game progresses.
Some people are confusing fun and content with what is a sandbox and not.
Sandbox does not mean that the game cannot have any quests or storyline, it doesn't mean that you cannot have a dungeon and such.
Sandbox simply means that the game offers enough tools for the community to generate their own content. This can be created with a good crafting system combined with gear decay or perhaps player houses and villages. The list goes on... :)
EVE online can be played in so many ways and yet, if you feel like it, you can embark into massive missions, question and cosmo missions that could eat up to 6 month to a year worth of content.
I disagree. Sandbox means that you can choose what to do among the many activities, jobs, cities, maps, places and spots to raise your skills, sieges, everything, and possibly all going on at the same time, dynamically, in the same gameworld without instances.
Sure you can travel in every zone in any WoW-style game, but your character progression/generic success will be stuck.
Quests force the players to do just ONE type of character progression(just quests), ONE linear sequence of maps and zones you go through until the end-game(like an any single player story... which means it's not fit for massive games), ONE activity for most of the time... and crafting is at best a side-activity, even in a game like Fallen Earth, which claims to be based on that... just like WARHAMMER, no? It claimed to be big in RVR, but it wasn't... FE claims to be big in crafting but it isn't... they're still games with WoW framework, so inevitably PVE will be the most prominent activity... there's nothing to do about it.
So maybe quests don't necessarily dictate a sandbox, if they're done in an original way, but THE WOW QUESTS(present in Fallen Earth) sure do because they affect your gaming time deeply, even if basically the game is structured like a sandbox.
If Ultima Online had quests that took you from city to city, and the cities were a balanced sequence of ascending levels, it wouldn't be sandbox anymore.
I disagree. Sandbox means that you can choose what to do among the many activities, jobs, cities, maps, places and spots to raise your skills, sieges, everything, and possibly all going on at the same time, dynamically, in the same gameworld without instances.
Sure you can travel in every zone in any WoW-style game, but your character progression/generic success will be stuck.
Quests force the players to do just ONE type of character progression(just quests), ONE linear sequence of maps and zones you go through until the end-game(like an any single player story... which means it's not fit for massive games), ONE activity for most of the time... and crafting is at best a side-activity, even in a game like Fallen Earth, which claims to be based on that... just like WARHAMMER, no? It claimed to be big in RVR, but it wasn't... FE claims to be big in crafting but it isn't... they're still games with WoW framework, so inevitably PVE will be the most prominent activity... there's nothing to do about it.
So maybe quests don't necessarily dictate a sandbox, if they're done in an original way, but THE WOW QUESTS(present in Fallen Earth) sure do because they affect your gaming time deeply, even if basically the game is structured like a sandbox.
If Ultima Online had quests that took you from city to city, and the cities were a balanced sequence of ascending levels, it wouldn't be sandbox anymore.
One doesn't HAVE to do the quests in Fallen Earth. You can grind out xp, or you can gain xp by simply crafting. Just because it CAN guide you, doesn't mean you have to let it. That's not forcing anything -- that's choice.
You saying that Fallen Earth isn't crafting oriented doesn't make it true. 95% of the items one uses in Fallen Earth are crafted.
And sandbox != open world pvp.
Finally, I again appeal for some subtlety in thought here. Sandbox is not black and white. It is a spectrum. Fallen Earth falls on that spectrum, leaning toward Sandbox. Is it an extreme sandbox like Second Life? No. But it certainly falls somewhere close to the sandbox that was SWG.
Wurm Online & A Tale in the Desert are to me the most sandbox of current MMOs out there (I've played Eve Online & am currently playing FE)
I'm so sick if this frigging debate I think from now on I'm just going to ignore them... Nowhere in that article did Mr Platt say that FE was a pure sandbox, nor did he infer it. If you disagree that FE is a hybrid with some sandbox features, then you're just arguing for arguments sake and are a troll. Drop it already, it's a dead debate and I'm sick of everyone bringing it up, in any capacity. Yes that includes game developers, website moderators, news reporters, website correspondents and everyone else. Get some new material and stop going on and on about a moronic buzzword that should have died a quiet death years ago.
Did you even read Wes Platt's answer??..............how did you get anything your complaining about from what he said???......you're an idiot
IMO FE is closer to a theme park that a sandbox
on a sandbox u can get the same thing(items/skills etc) choosing your way in FE if u want to craft some ATV u must make a quest so you get the skills like a quest reward and that is against the sandbox concept
Fallen Earth is not a sandbox, and no, I'm not one of those Dickless purists.
It doesn't have classes, that's about all that seperates it from it's ilk.
It has town hubs where you complete quests.
It gently guides you from one end to the map to the other... And by gently, I mean forces.
That's not what a sandbox is supposed to be.
Hell questing in this game is pretty much mandatory since there are a variety of (tedious and generic) quests that reward extra AP necessary for building your character up.
No, you don't need to do the ATV quest to be able to build it, you have the "option" to do the quest but you could get a ATV in many way's that don't involve you doing the ATV quest. example buy of auction a full ATV or it's parts, buy the crafting recipy books from auction or trade them with other players.
Don't forget there are plenty of people who indeed might have done the quest but are able to make/craft the recipy books and sell/trade/auction them. If this was not possible then sure you might see it as themepark, but you see that is not the case.
Good thing is that you do not need to do the quest, sure you might see it as tedious or generic, which does not mean it is also tedious and generic to everyone else.
Sure you can be lead from town to town if you want to, many don't want to a carve their own route.
Thankfully it's not only quests that give you AP thankfully almost anything you can do in game will grant you AP, actualy you would limit yourself if you would only do AP quest for AP.
So just because YOU have a themepark playstyle does not mean FE is a themepark.
I am also NOT saying FE is a sandbox game, as for me it's more of a open-world game, but then again this topic was not about FE being a sandbox, this topic was about Why Love Sandbox, a question asked by someone from Fallen Earth and he gave references about what he felt are sandbox games.
No, you don't need to do the ATV quest to be able to build it, you have the "option" to do the quest but you could get a ATV in many way's that don't involve you doing the ATV quest. example buy of auction a full ATV or it's parts, buy the crafting recipy books from auction or trade them with other players.
Don't forget there are plenty of people who indeed might have done the quest but are able to make/craft the recipy books and sell/trade/auction them. If this was not possible then sure you might see it as themepark, but you see that is not the case.
Just leave it man. These people are just stupid trolls. They don't like the game. Fine. So now they come here trolling. It's sad.
The fact that this troll just mentions one single questline (wich is awesome to do btw) and then uses this single questline as argument just shows what an idiot he really is.
People have no idea what a sandbox really is. Everyone has their own interpretation of it and keeps on argueing endlessly. It's a debate with no end. /facepalm
Fallen Earth is more sandbox then people here know. The ones that say it isn't haven't even tried the game or just played it for less then an hour and have no clue.
Every so called sandbox game out there that has a player avatar has levels. One way or the other. Hidden or not.
What makes a sandbox?
- You can choose your own path, your own combination of skills. You are not forced to choose a sertain class right from the start. >> Fallen Earth has that.
- You are not forced to do one single type of actions to gain XP to increase your skills, like quests. >> Fallen Earth has that. You can do missions to gain XP, but you can also just go out and wack mobs to gain XP. And you can go scavenge and craft and also gain XP! The choice is yours.
Fallen Earth has also an Open World for you to fully explore. Sure, like with all games. It has it's boundaries in each sector. But so has every other so calld Sandbox game.
And sure. Fallen Earth has it's flaws and short comings right now. AI, scripting and pathing still needs a lot of work. Housing still needs to be implemented. A pet system is on it's way as well.
Fallen Earth is a work in progress. It will get there.
Just leave it man. These people are just stupid trolls. They don't like the game. Fine. So now they come here trolling. It's sad.
The fact that this troll just mentions one single questline (wich is awesome to do btw) and then uses this single questline as argument just shows what an idiot he really is.
People have no idea what a sandbox really is. Everyone has their own interpretation of it and keeps on argueing endlessly. It's a debate with no end. /facepalm
Fallen Earth is more sandbox then people here know. The ones that say it isn't haven't even tried the game or just played it for less then an hour and have no clue.
Every so called sandbox game out there that has a player avatar has levels. One way or the other. Hidden or not.
What makes a sandbox?
- You can choose your own path, your own combination of skills. You are not forced to choose a sertain class right from the start. >> Fallen Earth has that.
- You are not forced to do one single type of actions to gain XP to increase your skills, like quests. >> Fallen Earth has that. You can do missions to gain XP, but you can also just go out and wack mobs to gain XP. And you can go scavenge and craft and also gain XP! The choice is yours.
Fallen Earth has also an Open World for you to fully explore. Sure, like with all games. It has it's boundaries in each sector. But so has every other so calld Sandbox game.
And sure. Fallen Earth has it's flaws and short comings right now. AI, scripting and pathing still needs a lot of work. Housing still needs to be implemented. A pet system is on it's way as well.
Fallen Earth is a work in progress. It will get there.
I played FE in beta and for 2 months after release. Its not a sandbox. Anyone who says its a sandbox, has not played EVE (hah, reverse strawman!).
In FE you have a linear progression to a final endgame, at which point you can no longer improve or change your character. You have linear zones, which make it unneccesary for a player to go back to a earlier zone. You have quests which once completed you can not repeat, and which drive you through the zones and levels. You have gear which scales up and drives you up your levels. Endgame is where the only sandbox comes in, and its a small sandbox. Now, the game is new, it may get better.
EVE is already there though. YOu have skill progression, but no levels. Your character is always improving, and you can always change your profession without rolling a new toon. You can have just as much fun and purpose in a newb area or among newbs as you can among veterans. Missions do not drive you to anything. There is no real overall arc that matters to the game. They are only for money, and many people never do a mission, never fire a shot in anger. The gear scales up with skill progression, but you can have just as much fun and purpose in a low skill frigate as a hi skill carrier. You can do just as well with base modules as you can with "epic" modules.
Even though FE is not a bad game
It's quite the opposite of a sandbox
FE is no sandbox...
I am quite surprised (No i am not) that so many people think games can only be one thing or the other, and can't see the sandbox part of fallen earth.
Hate to tell you, but FE is not even remotely a sandbox. And before you say I haven't played it, I have 2 45s and still subscribe to the game. Like the game for what it is, somewhat unique atmosphere, lots of potential. But to call it a sandbox is just being a misguided fanboi.
ERROR, complete misunderstanding of what a sandbox game is. Is Fallen Earth a true sandbox, probably not, but it has a lot of the elements of a sandbox. Hence it can be called a sandbox game. Any game that does not assign classes at some point can essentially be called a sandbox of some sort. You have the freedom to develop your avatar any way you want.
UO was pretty close to a true sandbox and you had limitations at high level, having endless character development is not a requirement for a sandbox.
Eve is not a perfect sandbox itself.
People who attempt to assign black and white to everything are in a state of denial as the world is mostly the grey in between.
The only themepark elements are the quest-methods and tiered zones, but that's pretty heavy of a themepark element, admittedly. On the other hand, your starting location and choice of where to quest means jack and is left up to personal devices, much like a sandbox. I dunno, if I had to throw an obligatory number I'd say it's 60% TP and 40% SB. There's far more goal structure than there is tools to give reason to explore on your own and make personal goals... except when it comes to crafting, as that's good ol' fashioned resource scavving - even if the quests basically line you up with the recipes instead of the player searching on his own for those as well.
lol, FE a sandbox!! I don't think so!!!
This game had so much promise and it failed big time!
To have access to quests and questlines has nothing to do with Fallen Earth beiing a sandbox or not..
IMO a "sandbox" is a simulation of a world ..
and in a simulation of a world there can be people living in this world both players and NPC's alike, and if there is going to be people, there is also going to people that wishes you to do things for them AKA "quests or errands"..
And In Fallen Earth it's completly up to you if you like to help these people out or NOT...
The only thing that talks against FE beiing a sandbox game is "linearity", ea that you have to go to a certain zone then the next etc, an example of such a game is "LOTRO" or "WoW" even thou nowadays you have alot more options in these games..And maybe a skill system that actually tries to simmulate how you learn skills in the real world, AKA you learn the skills that you currently work on.
But even in a world where you "can" go everywhere technically this doesnt have to mean that you actually "can go there" for diffrent reasons, like radiation or very tough envirioments..
A perfect example would be a third world country where there is a war raging, you woudn't be allowed to go there unless you have a reason or the right skills to do so, a doctor or a soldier or If you happen to actually live there..
Interesting how the article's example of successful sandbox games are all SINGLE player games. And the examples of mechanics that help make these games work (save points, flexible playtime) are impossible to implement in MMORPGs.
I doubt the writer meant this but the arguments in his article only point out why sandbox mechanics *don't* work in MMORPGs.