This is odd. I've never even heard of this guild. When you look at who has the various world first raid kills in WoW, this guild never came up. I didn't play UO, but has anyone out there actually heard of this guild?

Well I played UO and was a head counselor there for some time, never heard of them and there were some very good guilds on some of the UO shards.

Not demeaning the book, nice that he wrote it, but he has delusions of grandeur if he thinks that is a premier guild lol.

Originally posted by Valance

This is odd. I've never even heard of this guild. When you look at who has the various world first raid kills in WoW, this guild never came up. I didn't play UO, but has anyone out there actually heard of this guild?

Yes, I've heard of them.

Apparently, they were recently, very involved with Prima Games and Turbine. They contributed to the LotRO Official Game Guide.

I was part of SiN (The Syndicate) for a very short while on the great lakes shard in Ultima Online. They are by far the biggest and most persistant guild id ever seen in UO at that time. At one point they even tried to tax people to get into moonglow (a town) by blocking every entrance and waging war on every other guild there. Eventually I ended up against them in an opposing guild but man were the wars some of the best.

I've only heard of the guild in passing, just like 100s of other guilds.

Honestly, if you didn't play on a server that they were on, why would you have heard of them?

I belonged to a guild called "Raven Syndicate".  No.. not the guild in this article but im getting to that

These guys had the audacity to threaten our guild leader with legal actions for using the word "syndicate" in our guild name.  This guild pressued our leader to change the name of our guild or he would get his lawyers involved.  The person who contacted us claimed they had specific rights to the name "Syndicate"

This guilds leader seems to be extremely egotistacal.  Not just for trying to lay claims on a very generic word such as "Syndicate", but to go out and write a novel calling themselves Legend and trying to promote this as some sort of guild/clan cookbook is ridiculous.

Oh, our leader insisted the leader of The Syndicate get his lawyers involved.  Nothing ever came of the matter except an empty threat.

I remember them in UO on the final week of beta at the forge passing out gold while everyone pked eachother.  Other than that never saw them again.

"The Syndicate"? ... never heard of them, ever.. not even once. now, Nihilum, there's a WoW guild most people know.. they should write a book instead >_>

Seriously, wth?

I dunno, i guess when you know them you realize why they were so famous. However, on our shard, they were very short lived. Did a lot in a little bit of time and then I believe they all took leave to another shard. In my eyes they live up to the word "legend" but no more then many other of the guilds that were there

If the book was more about Guilds in general, it would even be interesting, but the fact that this so called "leader" names his guild something that its not.

I'm in one of the oldest guilds out there and like so many other older guilds (and more interesting ones), we don't prance around like we are god almighty.

Its a book that I will avoid.

They existed primarily on the Atlantic shard.  I interacted with them on a regular basis.  Not very impressive in terms of players. Very egotistical, take their gaming entirely too seriously.  The kind of folks that make me want to smack them in the mouth when I encounter them in the real world.  Large guild, yeah... Premier guild, not so much.

I've never heard of them either. I guess that makes the book awful. I prefer reading and re-reading the thousands of books written by people who've led guilds I've heard of, been a member of, and really respect. Jeez.

$11.16 that could be better spent on just about anything else in the entire world.

Noisome unwarranted hubris.

A mediocre guild who trademarked their name releasing a book...talk about being conceited. Most gamers never have heard of this guild as it has not had any real influence in the MMORPG world, except for the trademarking shenanigan.

It is difficult to not write this book off as an attempt to further inflate their already monumental ego.

Originally posted by Rayx0r

I belonged to a guild called "Raven Syndicate".  No.. not the guild in this article but im getting to that

These guys had the audacity to threaten our guild leader with legal actions for using the word "syndicate" in our guild name.  This guild pressued our leader to change the name of our guild or he would get his lawyers involved.  The person who contacted us claimed they had specific rights to the name "Syndicate"

This guilds leader seems to be extremely egotistacal.  Not just for trying to lay claims on a very generic word such as "Syndicate", but to go out and write a novel calling themselves Legend and trying to promote this as some sort of guild/clan cookbook is ridiculous.

Oh, our leader insisted the leader of The Syndicate get his lawyers involved.  Nothing ever came of the matter except an empty threat.

Wow... just wow. That's utterly ridiculous.

Originally posted by Tambourine

Originally posted by Rayx0r

I belonged to a guild called "Raven Syndicate".  No.. not the guild in this article but im getting to that

These guys had the audacity to threaten our guild leader with legal actions for using the word "syndicate" in our guild name.  This guild pressued our leader to change the name of our guild or he would get his lawyers involved.  The person who contacted us claimed they had specific rights to the name "Syndicate"

This guilds leader seems to be extremely egotistacal.  Not just for trying to lay claims on a very generic word such as "Syndicate", but to go out and write a novel calling themselves Legend and trying to promote this as some sort of guild/clan cookbook is ridiculous.

Oh, our leader insisted the leader of The Syndicate get his lawyers involved.  Nothing ever came of the matter except an empty threat.

Wow... just wow. That's utterly ridiculous.

I wouldnt go down so hard on em if this was infact a nice guild with some kind of influence on the community in a good way... but it's just a bunch of mediocre gamers jerking ppl around with a large guild to back them up. Thinking a book like this is of any interest to anyone except your own guildies shows a slight touch of megalomania.  

Originally posted by Valance

This is odd. I've never even heard of this guild. When you look at who has the various world first raid kills in WoW, this guild never came up. I didn't play UO, but has anyone out there actually heard of this guild?

Yes during UO Beta I remember searching for guilds online and even then they were a large group.

While normally The Syndicate does not post publically, since this is a site we are frequent readers of  we felt a reply to clear up a few inaccuracies by some posters was in order. 

A) In reference to comments similar to "I remember them from years ago and they were mean.. they sucked.. they were this.. they were that.." there are two relevant facts to consider.  First, a number of guild's have used our name over the years.  We were the first guild to use the name and we rapidly grew very large and were visible in a community that was much smaller than it is today.  Before too long, copycat guilds began to pop up using the name and in some cases they even pretended to be us on other servers or in other games.  As such, the vast majority of the time posts get made about 'bad' things we do, they are actually referring to other groups.  One such example is that in this thread there is a post talking about SiN which is not us. 

The second is that as Jon points out in his review, we openly discuss mistakes that we made in our early years.  Building a successful virtual community that is going on 12 years old is not done without making some mistakes and learning from them.  We are up front about those in the book in and effort to both honestly portray our history and to help other groups achieve a long term stable guild as well.  One of our core beliefs is that a strong gaming community benefits everyone and that stable guilds help build a strong community and our book, among other things, is a case study of one model of guild that has proven successful.  There are other models for success and there are other definitions of what success means.  Ours is one time tested story of success and currently its the only one published.  There will be others in the future and readers can chose the method that suits them and their guild the best or develop an entirely new one and write their own book.

B) The Syndicate is composed of a wide variety of people from across the world and from backgrounds of all shapes and sizes.  One of the little known facts about the guild is that members of almost every well known MMO development team are members of The Syndicate.  Staff from a number of the major fan sites are members of The Syndicate.  Developers and publishers of many popular non-MMO games are members of The Syndicate.   As such, over time, we have developed a number of very strong relationships with various companies that manifest in the form of things like consulting relationships, focus groups, content design meetings, formalized systems testing, private internal alpha and beta testing etc...  We don't openly brag about the specifics of what we have done or influenced but the vast majority of the readers of this article are playing or have played a game that we have had far more positive impact on than is publically known.  So, implicitly by playing the games and enjoying this feature or that boss or this rule set you are enjoying the results our efforts and are enjoying hard work that we put in to make the community a stronger place.  So we don't really take offense when someone posts says negative things because we do realize they are likely enjoying some aspect of some game that we as a guild or members of ours as developers had direct and significant impact in molding or creating.  We use our core ideals and values to work very hard to make gaming a little bit better for everyone but we don't create a massive bragging list "yep.. we designed X and our member created Y and they were producer for game Z" since that isn't our goal.  Our goal is to make gaming better both for our members and for the whole community.

C) In response to the question that was asked: "who would buy the book other than members?" .. well..  Thousands of copies have already been sold to players all across the world.  It has received many positive reviews from readers, from news sites and from members of the gaming industry.  One of my personal favorite quotes is from John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment, who wrote in his personal blog: "I have to say this is by far the best book about online gaming I’ve ever read. Once I got it, I couldn’t put it down and just read it straight through. The overall sense I got from reading the book was something that I’ve personally felt for a very long time – online gaming can lead to making lifelong friends. You spend a lot of time playing with people, and over that time these bonds can be just as powerful as friends you met back in school. I strongly believe that’s the biggest reason people like to play online games in the first place. It may not be what brings them in, but it is certainly one of the biggest drivers of what keeps them playing."  It is only natural that we would think very highly of ourselves.  That is human nature.  We also think very highly of a number of other successful players, guilds and companies.  But there is a large volume of independent media that have reviewed and evaluated both our book and our guild that have reached the same conclusion.  You are more than welcome to review their thoughts yourself and here is a cataloged link to many of them: http://www.llts.org/articles/  

Thanks again to Jon and MMORPG.COM for taking the time to review our book.  We do feel it is a worthwhile read to just about anyone into MMO gaming.  And if you seek to learn more about us without reading the book, please feel free to visit us at our website (www.LLTS.org). 

I had to laugh when Amazon recommends the book Exploiting Online Games: Cheating Massively Distributed Systems (Addison-Wesley Software Security Series) as a good companion to the Syndicate book and offer a package deal for them.

Hey I'm no jerk I can understand that The Syndicate is not all bad ofc, making friends etc is a big part of playing MMOs I've always thought. Some aspects are abit over the edge (namechange threats etc) but anyways what I wanted to say was please for the luv of god dont quote John Smedley. There's got to be some guy who is more 'in touch' (or maybe 'in sync' is better suited) with the MMO community, giving this book props. Smedley lives in a mirror universe where SOE actually matters.

Goodluck with the book, I probably wont read it but hey I wont be giving out a book of my own any time soon either haha 

Syndicate is actually a title of a video game franchise, got me if they still own the rights to that cool game but alas, that's how I remember that name. In my  gulp!.. 25+ years of gaming sense MUDS, I don't remember these guys, but as many have stated in certain titles in the past, allot of different kins/clans/guilds have dominated different games etc. Planetside had the Enclave and WOW had TAO, Dragonchow for EQ and more, all of which are better known in my eyes then these guys. Thou others can come on here and say they never heard of any of these guilds/clans , there are just so many that come and go.

It's cool that someone want's to make a book about MMO Guilds, thou I would have chosen a bit more of an open ended title and something that does not make it seem so self-promoting in the title. I might have just picked it up for curiosity sake, but because it seems to be more self-promotion then anything I will have to pass. Eh , it's published so someone thought it was something special I guess. Finally having one of it's members post here giving self cutos is just another reason not to get it. Talk delusions of grandeur ;P 

Originally posted by Syndicate

While normally The Syndicate does not post publically, since this is a site we are frequent readers of  we felt a reply to clear up a few inaccuracies by some posters was in order. 

A) In reference to comments similar to "I remember them from years ago and they were mean.. they sucked.. they were this.. they were that.." there are two relevant facts to consider.  First, a number of guild's have used our name over the years.  We were the first guild to use the name and we rapidly grew very large and were visible in a community that was much smaller than it is today.  Before too long, copycat guilds began to pop up using the name and in some cases they even pretended to be us on other servers or in other games.  As such, the vast majority of the time posts get made about 'bad' things we do, they are actually referring to other groups.  One such example is that in this thread there is a post talking about SiN which is not us. 

The second is that as Jon points out in his review, we openly discuss mistakes that we made in our early years.  Building a successful virtual community that is going on 12 years old is not done without making some mistakes and learning from them.  We are up front about those in the book in and effort to both honestly portray our history and to help other groups achieve a long term stable guild as well.  One of our core beliefs is that a strong gaming community benefits everyone and that stable guilds help build a strong community and our book, among other things, is a case study of one model of guild that has proven successful.  There are other models for success and there are other definitions of what success means.  Ours is one time tested story of success and currently its the only one published.  There will be others in the future and readers can chose the method that suits them and their guild the best or develop an entirely new one and write their own book.

B) The Syndicate is composed of a wide variety of people from across the world and from backgrounds of all shapes and sizes.  One of the little known facts about the guild is that members of almost every well known MMO development team are members of The Syndicate.  Staff from a number of the major fan sites are members of The Syndicate.  Developers and publishers of many popular non-MMO games are members of The Syndicate.   As such, over time, we have developed a number of very strong relationships with various companies that manifest in the form of things like consulting relationships, focus groups, content design meetings, formalized systems testing, private internal alpha and beta testing etc...  We don't openly brag about the specifics of what we have done or influenced but the vast majority of the readers of this article are playing or have played a game that we have had far more positive impact on than is publically known.  So, implicitly by playing the games and enjoying this feature or that boss or this rule set you are enjoying the results our efforts and are enjoying hard work that we put in to make the community a stronger place.  So we don't really take offense when someone posts says negative things because we do realize they are likely enjoying some aspect of some game that we as a guild or members of ours as developers had direct and significant impact in molding or creating.  We use our core ideals and values to work very hard to make gaming a little bit better for everyone but we don't create a massive bragging list "yep.. we designed X and our member created Y and they were producer for game Z" since that isn't our goal.  Our goal is to make gaming better both for our members and for the whole community.

C) In response to the question that was asked: "who would buy the book other than members?" .. well..  Thousands of copies have already been sold to players all across the world.  It has received many positive reviews from readers, from news sites and from members of the gaming industry.  One of my personal favorite quotes is from John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment, who wrote in his personal blog: "I have to say this is by far the best book about online gaming I’ve ever read. Once I got it, I couldn’t put it down and just read it straight through. The overall sense I got from reading the book was something that I’ve personally felt for a very long time – online gaming can lead to making lifelong friends. You spend a lot of time playing with people, and over that time these bonds can be just as powerful as friends you met back in school. I strongly believe that’s the biggest reason people like to play online games in the first place. It may not be what brings them in, but it is certainly one of the biggest drivers of what keeps them playing."  It is only natural that we would think very highly of ourselves.  That is human nature.  We also think very highly of a number of other successful players, guilds and companies.  But there is a large volume of independent media that have reviewed and evaluated both our book and our guild that have reached the same conclusion.  You are more than welcome to review their thoughts yourself and here is a cataloged link to many of them: http://www.llts.org/articles/  

Thanks again to Jon and MMORPG.COM for taking the time to review our book.  We do feel it is a worthwhile read to just about anyone into MMO gaming.  And if you seek to learn more about us without reading the book, please feel free to visit us at our website (www.LLTS.org). 

 

Hilarious response!  Thanks for my first good chuckle of the day.

For those that need help, here's a bit of a breakdown:

A)  The Syndicate is all good.  Any negative interactions you've had with members were not with our group.  They were with our evil clones.  From the parallel, dark, mirror universe.  You know, just like us, but with goatees.  If you've ever interacted with a real member of our group, it's been all warm/fuzzies.  The bad stuff isn't us.

B)  Even if you don't believe A, or are wary of large, game controlling guilds in general (those of the gold farming, clique making, game ruining variety), you have to like us because we've actually helped make your game more fun.  Yes, we were intergral in developing all the fun parts of mmo's....and have never once given advice or suggestions that have led to a bad play experience.  EVER!  If a boss you faced was fun, exciting, challenging, and all around great....your welcome.  If you went through a boring grindfest to get a weapon that couldn't compete with the guildraid weapons the game provides...not our fault (damn developers). 

An easy way to remember all that is...the Syndicate = 100% fun gaming for all.  Direct any other complaints to the devs and our evil twins.

C)  If you're wondering "who would buy such a book" then have I got the answer for you....the most divisive developer in all of online gaming LOVES our book.  He's a huge fan.  Big time.  That should really help our sales...since, attaching John Smedley's name to mmo's usually does WONDERS for those game's sales.  So, if you like your games Smedley style.....you'll love this book.  Be like Smed, and buy it today.

To summarize:

The Syndicate is always good...anything else was an evil twin

We helped shape the innovative, challenging, and fun mmo's you have today (direct any complaints at developers)

John Smedley is our buddy.

Great start to my weekend guys....thanks.

LOL Bountytaker :) nice post.

Reminds me of Scientology....

Well I guess its easy to claim you are the premiere group of computer game nerds when nobody else cares to challenge your claim to supremicy...

Originally posted by Sornin

 

Originally posted by hadubnano

Well I guess its easy to claim you are the premiere group of computer game nerds when nobody else cares to challenge your claim to supremicy...

 

 

Ha, that reminds me of the phrase regarding the Special Olympics: "You may win a gold medal, but you are still a retard."

Sornin, that was a cruel and hateful thing to say.  I just hope you never have a special needs child.  I'm sure you would just throw it out with the trash.

You know I read this thread and said to myself; wow these guys sound egocentric. Then "Syndicate" posted and confirmed it.

All major MMO developers have our members on our team we are Gods, Smed and Garriot come to us for advice!!!! (Is that why there games have been sucking so hard of late)  Million of copies of our book has been sold on the interweb and Oprah has chosen it for book of the month!!!! 

Did I ever tell you guys about the time Jeri Ryan and I spent that week in Belize?

Well Syndicate your post was fine until you quoted Smedley.  Of all dumb people to quote you chose one of the maligned and ridiculed people in the MMO industry.   If I was going to support an argument for someone reading the book, you could at least pick someone reputable to quote.   You have to consider Smedley's legacy as the man who cost SOE more customers than most MMO's ever have.

If Smedley thought the book was good, you can pretty must asure yourself that it is a piece of trash.  He is that clueless when it comes to this industry.

You can tell the whole guild is egocentric considering the fact that they bloat themselves into a "legend" status. I haven't even heard of this guild. They say that they have played WoW extensively, yet I haven't heard any mention of it so far in my past WoW experience. Now servers (realms, etc.) would limit the guild's popularity and it would seem right to respect a long-lived guild. But to go so far as to act inflated with such a book title ruins any past recognition or reputation garnered thereof. I concur with an open-ended guide. However, that can be found at http://www.guildhelper.com/creation.html. It seems more reliable and effective than some fictional story about a guild. Also, it's not just any guild, but an arrogant one that pretends to contribute tremendously to the industry.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Dragons

for the people interested in Dragons and The Syndicate.  The reason people haven't heard of them is because they never managed a server first, let alone a world first, or even make it in the top ten guild on the Horde side.  I remember a memo being leaked on the Zuljin forums where Dragons answered his guild growing discontent with their poor raiding performance by stating : "Any guild that is past us "raid-wise" are doing so by hacking and cheating and I'm not willing to do that". 

I remember Syndicate members not being allowed to post of the official forums and doing so could get you severely reprimanded.  Blowhards is the best definition for these guys.

Oh yeah, They also claimed the organized crime group called "The Syndicate" in the game was Blizzard's way of recognizing their importance in the gaming world.

Frankly, I don't even care for guilds. It's nice to read about history, since I'm an old school MUD'er myself. In the end, a guild is a guild, I don't see it as a significant social engagement, even when I was in one on AC1 back in '99, primarily because all too often these guilds have tried to invade my privacy and I've stated prior that my identity is my own concern and not theirs (unless we're talking about an open PVP game, then I can understand some nominal identification against spying by opposing guilds).

-- Brede

I remember The Syndicate from UO on Atlantic LLTS they were basically the first and biggest "zerg" guild going at the time they pretty much wrote the book you might say on "zerg recruitment and deployment" the thing is the average player kinda sucked at pvp when I played back in 97-98 outnumbered me and my friends still stomped them majority of the time. Don't see myself picking up that book maybe if a more interesting and better guild made one like The Mercs/The Cabal I might be interested.

So let me get this straight, you are the guys responsible for all the cookie cutter mmo's and lack of imagination and innovation?   Thanks for you're input , but no thanks.  I'm sure the industry is capable of mediocrity without your help.

And you think Smedley is someone that is going to validate you're worth?  Hahaha...you guys weren't the focus group  for the NGE were you?  Just how many games have you guys messed up anyway?

Not everyone is into the social aspect of MMORPGs.  For some it is all about the pixels, getting the phat loots, and parading around the bank  in those awesome shoulders.  For that kind of player Nilhem or Death and Taxes is the ideal: a guild that is first through content.  If that is your definition of legendary when it comes to gaming guilds, no, The Syndicate is not on the leading edge of content.

What makes The Syndicate legendary is its longevity.  What other guild has been around for 12 years and is still a significant presence in one game, needless to say two?  I first became aware of The Syndicate when I was playing UO.  They played on a different shard (they are on Atlantic, I played on Cats), but I had still heard of them.  I guess I read a great deal of Stratics back in the day and they were always sponsoring an event: a fair, a crafting day, or other activity.  Still, unless you're one to read outside of the narrow field that defines your guild , your server, or even your game, it is not surprising many have not heard of them.

As it happened, I starting playing World of Warcraft on the same server as The Syndicate.   I became aware of their presence there from the server forums.  Everything I read said this was a sympatico guild for me, but they were Horde and my toons were Alliance.  So I just filed information about The Syndicate away.....till my long-standing guild fell on hard times.

I'm a mature, female player.  Not every teeny bop guild is going to be a good fit for me.  I wanted to raid end-game.  I wanted a mature, stable community.  Ultimately I decided to level up a horde toon and apply to The Syndicate.  A friend from my old guild was now a TS member and he urged me to apply.  I did.  I was accepted (not many make it over that hump) and today I am proud to be a member of one of the premier guilds in online gaming.

The Syndicate is not premier because they are on the cutting edge of end-game content.  They are premier because they comprise a mature, caring community, which enables people to form lasting friendships within the context of gaming.  Our guild master, Dragons, pours time and effort into this guild and it shows in a hundred ways.  He, along with our Squad Leaders and Raid Leaders, works hard to create a fun, fair and caring community in which to enjoy the virtual parts of our lives.  A core guild creed is Real Life Comes First.  How many hard-core raiding guilds have that as their keystone?  Maybe that's why they won't be here in a year or two, but The Syndicate will still be around.

I've been the guild master of a couple of guilds: The Village of Edinburgh in UO and in many ways defacto GM of The Defenders of Justice in World of Warcraft.  I am always amused when some young pup decides having their own guild will be fun.  Running a guild, or at least running it well, is work.  It is a lot of work and it is at its core often a thankless job.  Sean's book will give any nascent guild master insights into what it takes to run a successful guild, one that will live past the changes in the next expansion.  Besides that, as a long time gamer, it was a fun read: a real walk down memory lane.

Originally posted by Niamb

 

I've been the guild master of a couple of guilds: The Village of Edinburgh in UO and in many ways defacto GM of The Defenders of Justice in World of Warcraft.  I am always amused when some young pup decides having their own guild will be fun.  Running a guild, or at least running it well, is work.  It is a lot of work and it is at its core often a thankless job.  Sean's book will give any nascent guild master insights into what it takes to run a successful guild, one that will live past the changes in the next expansion.  Besides that, as a long time games, it was a fun read: a real walk down memory lane.

Young Pups?  God talk about Nerd-egocentricity.    Poor souls that think games should be a means of entertainment. I love the Hobby, but man some of its fans are such an embarrassment..

Their official game is WoW and the guy that recommends their book is Smed. Why not the boss of Blizzard?

Anyways thanks for making such a fuss about yourselves. Now I know to avoid joining a guild named The Syndicate(TM) on any game.

Originally posted by jotull

You know I read this thread and said to myself; wow these guys sound egocentric. Then "Syndicate" posted and confirmed it.

All major MMO developers have our members on our team we are Gods, Smed and Garriot come to us for advice!!!! (Is that why there games have been sucking so hard of late)  Million of copies of our book has been sold on the interweb and Oprah has chosen it for book of the month!!!! 

Did I ever tell you guys about the time Jeri Ryan and I spent that week in Belize?

What a looser ... These guys have published a method used to develop a long running guild. Trials and tribulations, for most who spend hours trolling on these forums I guess it would be a perfect read.

But then thats not what most of the negative loosers who post here are all about. Well done to the "Syndicate" contribution and effort are always welcome, in my book.

Originally posted by Niamb

Not everyone is into the social aspect of MMORPGs.  For some, it is all about the pixels, getting the phat loots, and parading around the bank  in those awesome shoulders.  For that kind of player Nilhem or Death and Taxes are the ideal: a guild that is first through content.  If that is your definition of legendary when it comes to gaming guilds, no, The Syndicate is not on the leading edge of content.

What makes The Syndicate legendary is its longevity.  What other guild has been around for 12 years and is still a significant presence in one game, needless to say two?  I first became aware of The Syndicate when I was playing UO.  They played on a different shard (they are on Atlantic, I played on Cats), but I had still heard of them.  I guess I read a great deal of Stratics back in the day and they were always sponsoring an event: a fair, a crafting day, and event.  Still, unless you're one to read outside of the narrow field that defines your guild , your server, or even your game, it is not surprising many have not heard of them.

As it happened, I starting playing World of Warcraft on the same server as The Syndicate.  I guess I became aware of them from the server forums.  Everything I read said this was a sympatico guild for me, but they were Horde and my toons were Alliance.  So I just filed information about The Syndicate away.....till my long-standing guild fell on hard times.

I'm a mature, female player.  Not every teeny bop guild is going to be a good fit for me.  I wanted to raid end-game.  I wanted a mature, stable community.  Ultimately I decided to level up a horde toon and apply to The Syndicate.  A friend from my old guild was now a TS member and he urged me to apply.  I did.  I was accepted (not many make it over that hump) and today I am proud to be a member of one of the premier guilds in online gaming.

The Syndicate is not premier because they are on the cutting edge of end-game content.  They are premier because they comprise a mature, caring community, which enables people to form lasting friendships within the context of gaming.  Our guild master Dragons pours time and effort into this guild and it shows in a hundred ways.  He, along with our Squad Leaders and Raid Leaders, works hard to create a fun, fair and caring community in which to enjoy the virtual parts of our lives.  A core guild creed is Real Life Comes First.  How many hard-core raiding guilds have that as their keystone?  Maybe that's why they won't be here in a year or two, but The Syndicate will still be around.

I've been the guild master of a couple of guilds: The Village of Edinburgh in UO and in many ways defacto GM of The Defenders of Justice in World of Warcraft.  I am always amused when some young pup decides having their own guild will be fun.  Running a guild, or at least running it well, is work.  It is a lot of work and it is at its core often a thankless job.  Sean's book will give any nascent guild master insights into what it takes to run a successful guild, one that will live past the changes in the next expansion.  Besides that, as a long time games, it was a fun read: a real walk down memory lane.

I just  wanted to say that this is a very nice post.

lol, members of an uber guild are developers?  no wonder we have the trend of zerg-based, item mongering, grind-to-the-endgame MMOs

Right, well, regardless of what Dragons posts on these boards to bolster his ego and engage in self-affirmation, the fact remains that those of us that remember LLTS (Long Live The Syndicate) from the Atlantic Shard in UO, have a far less flattering opinion of him and his organization.

The members of LLTS were notoriously obnoxious and over-zealous, frequently disruptive, and by no means as productive or contributory as Dragons has claimed in his post here, or as likely misrepresented in his book.  Yeah, they had a sizable presence on the server, with their little player-made town and numerous keeps and castles, they even had CS placed items; however, they were far from respected outside the scope of their proverbial circle-jerk. In essence, they were the nerd's nerd.  They were the folks that those of that were self-recognized gaming geeks snickered about and laughed at. 

In my mind, and in the mind of many, I'm sure, LLTS will be long remembered as a socially-inept group of folks with a highly exaggerated sense of self-importance.

As for the claim to the namesake 'The Syndicate', there was a long lived guild by the name of 'The Syndicate' on a MUD by the name of Chomestru, which shut down long before UO and well before Dragons' claim to fame.  I'm sure there were many other organizations, guilds, etc... that had utilized the name in the past; Dragons was simply the first lacking enough in self-respect to trademark his lack of originality.

And as someone else pointed out, the fact he noted his one big endorsement as coming from Mr. Smedley, a quintessential minion and representation of SOE and its complete lack of integrity, entitles him to a great big ole':

YOU FAIL.

Yea, you'd think someone who's been "in the game" since UO would know not to quote Mr. Smedley.. :P

Originally posted by Niamb

What makes The Syndicate legendary is its longevity.  What other guild has been around for 12 years and is still a significant presence in one game, needless to say two?  I first became aware of The Syndicate when I was playing UO.  They played on a different shard (they are on Atlantic, I played on Cats), but I had still heard of them.  I guess I read a great deal of Stratics back in the day and they were always sponsoring an event: a fair, a crafting day, or other activity.  Still, unless you're one to read outside of the narrow field that defines your guild , your server, or even your game, it is not surprising many have not heard of them.

Wow this forum has some of the most negative people who loves to put down others accomplishments... doesnt matter if other ancient old guilds don't write a book about themselves, does not mean that other older guilds cant do the same!

Despite my doubts, I did end up buying the book since a friend of mine read it and liked it. While the author clearly has delusions of grandeur, I must admit that it was a great read.

This thread continues to make me chuckle

Man, I wonder where all these supportive, "first and second post members" are coming from?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................................

OK, serious for a second:  My suggestion to the Syndicate folks who might be listening would be:  You need a better PR department.  Folks who have interacted with you say you're "arrogant", folks who have read your book say the same thing, and, your posts here come off just as bad.

I've never interacted with any of you, don't run a guild, and don't even play most of the games your in, so I have no personal stake in this.  Take this as an outsiders perspective:  you're finding ways to rub people the wrong way.  A PR change may be in order.

Thanks all for the continued chuckles.

Originally posted by Terranah

So let me get this straight, you are the guys responsible for all the cookie cutter mmo's and lack of imagination and innovation?   ...

And you think Smedley is someone that is going to validate you're worth?  ...

 

Touche

Originally posted by Bountytaker

This thread continues to make me chuckle

 

Man, I wonder where all these supportive, "first and second post members" are coming from?

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................................

 

 

OK, serious for a second:  My suggestion to the Syndicate folks who might be listening would be:  You need a better PR department.  Folks who have interacted with you say you're "arrogant", folks who have read your book say the same thing, and, your posts here come off just as bad.

 

I've never interacted with any of you, don't run a guild, and don't even play most of the games your in, so I have no personal stake in this.  Take this as an outsiders perspective:  you're finding ways to rub people the wrong way.  A PR change may be in order.

 

Thanks all for the continued chuckles.

 

 

 

 

 

Bounty.. you sound as if the intelectual majority reside here they don't. You know what i have never heard of this guild but for all intents they are big contributors. MMORPG.com put the article up and I am not sure if they begged to be put on show here or not from what I have heard over the last few days... My view is that they fall under the not category.

I say good luck to them and feel sad that you need to belittle, I would be interested to understand your first hand experience of this group ? oh none you stated it above. I wouldn't know if they are good bad or indifferent. But I applaud them for producing the book.... What have you done lately to contribute to the genre i could guess but i won't, the book is a contribution which you can take or leave as you see fit.

These guys don't have the attitude of loosers and have a reputation with the Games developers and that says a lot, 12 years and never heard of think about it.!!!!

Now to go out buy that book i'm intrigued now 

I have waited until the frenzy died down before making my post.  I don't feel like getting into a war of hate mails in my work account that loudly wonder how I could support The Syndicate but not your guild so I will post this under my pseudonym.

My company is one of those that works with The Syndicate and we do so for a variety of reasons. I am aware of some other companies that do as well and their reasons are similar to ours.  From my days on the community side of the farm, I dealt with literally thousands of guilds on a recurring basis.  While some of them are also well run groups that present themselves in a professional manner we have found that The Syndicate gave us several things we had a hard time finding in other groups.  They have longevity and within that longevity they have stability.  By the time I began working with them under my new developer hat, they already had a proven track record of quality work that they done without leaks on forums and with a consistent group of people.  That was important to me when I managed projects with them because if I have to issue fifty accounts and the group I give them to can't keep the same people for months at a time, then I have a nightmare for me with the potential loss of control over information and access that is not yet ready for public consumption.  I can avoid that issue by working with a guild that all but guarantees me a stable, hard working, professionally acting team.  Also important to me was that if I gave out assignments and had deliverables I needed back, I needed to be assured of getting them back on time and complete.  If an assignment stretched over several months in a game that is not yet completed it is hard to be sure the players will stay involved and complete their work and it is hard to ensure the guild itself will not close its doors due to some internal turmoil or a change in its focus. 

There are other good players and other good groups out there.  However, with The Syndicate having so many years of consistent existence and a resume of successful projects helps to build a trusting relationship with them.  When you receive emails from hundreds or thousands of guilds all claiming to be the best out there, having years of a proven track record that I can validate by talking to my peers that they have worked with sets them apart.

From a purely work relationship standpoint, The Syndicate has delivered on its projects with us.  They are a very professional, organized and mature group to work with.  I have nothing but good things to say about them.  I am sure there are other great groups out there but building that trusting relationship with them is a high risk proposition given the high failure rate of guilds when I already have a proven success story in my back pocket that has not let me down yet.  

Intresting read this thread. I think it all basically comes down to the fact that mmo's are a reflection of society. Because they exist in it.

Ive never been in a player group for more than a month, and some of them have been around 12 years. Thats commitment.

Maybe ill buy the book when im playing in a game that I cant get enough of.

I really can't believe that this book was published.  As other posters have stated, it sounds like someone stroking their own ego.  I've never heard of them, although I didn't play UO, I have played WoW.

So an anonymous somebody from an anonymous company creates an account here for the specific purpose of defending the honor of The Syndicate?

Right, GTFO.

I find it curious that this post is riddled with the same poorly contructed grammar found in a few of the excerpts, from the book, I've found online.

Now THAT is class.

Originally posted by Pariahnine

So an anonymous somebody from an anonymous company creates an account here for the specific purpose of defending the honor of The Syndicate?

Right, GTFO.

I find it curious that this post is riddled with the same poorly contructed grammar found in a few of the excerpts, from the book, I've found online.

Now THAT is class.

LOL yeah.  Thats pretty sad.  You syndicate guys really need to get a life.  I heard McDonalds is hiring. 

Originally posted by Panilope

I have waited until the frenzy died down before making my post.  I don't feel like getting into a war of hate mails in my work account that loudly wonder how I could support The Syndicate but not your guild so I will post this under my pseudonym.

 

My company is one of those that works with The Syndicate and we do so for a variety of reasons. I am aware of some other companies that do as well and their reasons are similar to ours.  From my days on the community side of the farm, I dealt with literally thousands of guilds on a recurring basis.  While some of them are also well run groups that present themselves in a professional manner we have found that The Syndicate gave us several things we had a hard time finding in other groups.  They have longevity and within that longevity they have stability.  By the time I began working with them under my new developer hat, they already had a proven track record of quality work that they done without leaks on forums and with a consistent group of people.  That was important to me when I managed projects with them because if I have to issue fifty accounts and the group I give them to can't keep the same people for months at a time, then I have a nightmare for me with the potential loss of control over information and access that is not yet ready for public consumption.  I can avoid that issue by working with a guild that all but guarantees me a stable, hard working, professionally acting team.  Also important to me was that if I gave out assignments and had deliverables I needed back, I needed to be assured of getting them back on time and complete.  If an assignment stretched over several months in a game that is not yet completed it is hard to be sure the players will stay involved and complete their work and it is hard to ensure the guild itself will not close its doors due to some internal turmoil or a change in its focus. 

 

There are other good players and other good groups out there.  However, with The Syndicate having so many years of consistent existence and a resume of successful projects helps to build a trusting relationship with them.  When you receive emails from hundreds or thousands of guilds all claiming to be the best out there, having years of a proven track record that I can validate by talking to my peers that they have worked with sets them apart.

 

From a purely work relationship standpoint, The Syndicate has delivered on its projects with us.  They are a very professional, organized and mature group to work with.  I have nothing but good things to say about them.  I am sure there are other great groups out there but building that trusting relationship with them is a high risk proposition given the high failure rate of guilds when I already have a proven success story in my back pocket that has not let me down yet.  

 

Okay, i'll bite:

You state that the main benefit of this group, from an advice standpoint, is their longevity.  They've been playing these games, as a group, longer than anyone, so that makes them more qualified to advise on the next set of games being developed.  Okay, I could see that point.

But, what about the opposing possibility?  Shouldn't there be concern around letting a well established, status quo guild advising what should be the next-gen, innovative titles in the genre.  After all, the current format of the games in this genre have worked out very well for this group.  Heck, you could argue they've "cornered the market" on the UO style game.  So, where's the motivation to give advice that would screw up their status quo?  How likely are they to push for innovative systems that go AGAINST their guild building ideals?  Would they recommend not having a guild system in the game you were developing, if it was truly the BEST suggestion they could make, but also meant they could not play it (and succeed) the way they like (ie, with guilds)?

Sure, it's great to have the experience.  Experience make companies, and products, much more efficient, and much more likable for the consumer.  But, this business (making mmo's), also happens to be one that should thrive on innovation.  And the two don't always equate.  Innovation often entails risk.  Experience often minimizes risk.  They aren't very easy to have coexisting.

I don't really need an answer on this.  I'm just summing up what I think others are hinting at in this thread...namely that suggesting one's longevitiy in anything directly translates into a better resulting product is NOT a given.  If this group, and their friends, would like to take credit for advising so many major companies, they also have to be ready to be questioned about whether that advice is contributing to the stagnation of the genre.

Enjoy.

Bountytaker, your observation is valid if all we did was work with one group and all decisions were based off of that one set of interactions.  My comments above were an explanation as to why we did work with The Syndicate but should not be taken as policy statement that the only thing we do is to work with them.  A book could be written entirely on the topic of how game concepts are created and fleshed out.  Myself and our entire team are all gamers the same as any other development team.  So a primary source for ideas is our own experience.  Many of us are in guilds.  A couple of my team are in The Syndicate but many more of us are in other guilds.  We discuss ideas with the people we know there and factor that in.  A common thing studios do is to run focus groups.  They are another source of input.  Sometimes marketing companies are engaged to do their own focus groups and research.  The big trump card is, of course, the actual beta test.  We do closed betas and internal betas and friends and family betas and guild betas and the like in order to get feedback.  My post above merely states why we do work with The Syndicate and what they bring to the table for us.  We do a great deal of other information collection and fleshing out of ideas from a variety of sources.

I am sure someone will point out that I didn't really mention forums as a source.  Every game has forums but there is a very low signal to noise ratio on them.  Too many complainers and whiners with incoherent thoughts.  Too many varying minority viewpoints that often conflict with each other.  What we use forums for is to look for constructive participants that we can then include in our focus groups and in our beta testing.  Those people don't have to agree with the majority, and it is often good if they don't, but we do not value or utilize flames and whining posts which often dominate forums.

The Syndicate is a group that we are glad to work with and have as a part of our process but it is not the only part of our process.  A fantastic amount of ideas go into designing a game and those come from a bunch of sources.

Originally posted by Panilope

Bountytaker, your observation is valid if all we did was work with one group and all decisions were based off of that one set of interactions.  My comments above were an explanation as to why we did work with The Syndicate but should not be taken as policy statement that the only thing we do is to work with them.  A book could be written entirely on the topic of how game concepts are created and fleshed out.  Myself and our entire team are all gamers the same as any other development team.  So a primary source for ideas is our own experience.  Many of us are in guilds.  A couple of my team are in The Syndicate but many more of us are in other guilds.  We discuss ideas with the people we know there and factor that in.  A common thing studios do is to run focus groups.  They are another source of input.  Sometimes marketing companies are engaged to do their own focus groups and research.  The big trump card is, of course, the actual beta test.  We do closed betas and internal betas and friends and family betas and guild betas and the like in order to get feedback.  My post above merely states why we do work with The Syndicate and what they bring to the table for us.  We do a great deal of other information collection and fleshing out of ideas from a variety of sources.

 

I am sure someone will point out that I didn't really mention forums as a source.  Every game has forums but there is a very low signal to noise ratio on them.  Too many complainers and whiners with incoherent thoughts.  Too many varying minority viewpoints that often conflict with each other.  What we use forums for is to look for constructive participants that we can then include in our focus groups and in our beta testing.  Those people don't have to agree with the majority, and it is often good if they don't, but we do not value or utilize flames and whining posts which often dominate forums.

 

The Syndicate is a group that we are glad to work with and have as a part of our process but it is not the only part of our process.  A fantastic amount of ideas go into designing a game and those come from a bunch of sources.

 

What team, what company, what projects, what sources, what...validity?

Unless you can provide some information to substantiate these claims that you are someone in the industry who relies on this guild to test things, why should we believe you at all? You should have nothing to hide, and if you do, why say anything at all?

Until some real information comes forth, all you are is a poster who magically registered at a conspicuous time to validate a guild's worth without validating your own first. And that, of course, makes these posts about as useful as a poopy-flavoured lollipop, since they are mosty likely from a highly biased source associated with The Syndicate.

I would not put anything past a guild that trademarks a cliched name and writes a book about their cyber-history few care about. The website alone strokes the guild's own ego enough to get it aroused.

I don't recall asking you to convert to my viewpoint.  I don't recall requiring that you believe every word I say.  Frankly, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.  There is plenty of typical forum trolling going on in this thread that I chose to offer a counter viewpoint based on our experience working with this guild.  If you don't like it or don't believe it or don't wish to accept the reality of it, that is your hangup, not mine.  I don't recall asking you to prove to me why I should give a hoot what you post or why anything you say should be any more relevant than anything anyone else says did I?  That is both the essence of what a forum means and it is also the primary reason forums are not used as a major source of gaming feedback.  They make people feel good because they get to post and let out their emotions but their actual value towards developing any meaningful content is nada.  But back to the topic you raised; I didn't ask you to prove you weren't a bully.  I just accepted that as fact.  You can either accept or dismiss my background but it doesn't really make a difference to me.  I am not here to convince you of my views.  I am simply here to share them, the same as you.  the difference is, I don't make global statements on behalf of all the other readers about what they should or shouldn't believe. Like I do in my day job, I make my case and let people decide what they will.   Since I don't think debating this with you will reach a conclusion you can accept, I do not see a reason to continue it.  I have said my piece.  You have said yours.  And with that, I wish you a good day and happy gaming.

They have been finding ways to rub people the wrong way for years.

Originally posted by Panilope

I don't recall asking you to convert to my viewpoint.  I don't recall requiring that you believe every word I say.  Frankly, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.  There is plenty of typical forum trolling going on in this thread that I chose to offer a counter viewpoint based on our experience working with this guild.  If you don't like it or don't believe it or don't wish to accept the reality of it, that is your hangup, not mine.  I don't recall asking you to prove to me why I should give a hoot what you post or why anything you say should be any more relevant than anything anyone else says did I?  That is both the essence of what a forum means and it is also the primary reason forums are not used as a major source of gaming feedback.  They make people feel good because they get to post and let out their emotions but their actual value towards developing any meaningful content is nada.  But back to the topic you raised; I didn't ask you to prove you weren't a bully.  I just accepted that as fact.  You can either accept or dismiss my background but it doesn't really make a difference to me.  I am not here to convince you of my views.  I am simply here to share them, the same as you.  the difference is, I don't make global statements on behalf of all the other readers about what they should or shouldn't believe. Like I do in my day job, I make my case and let people decide what they will.   Since I don't think debating this with you will reach a conclusion you can accept, I do not see a reason to continue it.  I have said my piece.  You have said yours.  And with that, I wish you a good day and happy gaming.

Some times things are better if unsaid.

I'm not saying that you are a liar but your post just added more wood to the fire, since most people will outright dismiss it or even flame "The Syndicate" even more.

I understand when Developers work with old guilds, even my guild has worked with Arena.net and others during Alpha stage on some of their projects. What rubs people in the wrong way is always the way people portray themselves and unfortunately "The Syndicate" is NOT a guild that people really do look up or even know about them.

Just because they have hundreds of players in their guild doesn't make it more suitable to be legendary, just because they have been around for 10+ years doesn't make them any better than most guilds out there and just because they help some "unknown" developer that comes to MMORPG defending the reputation of The Syndicate saying that they are easy to work with, etc... doesn't elevate "The Syndicate" in my view and just adds fuel to this flame thread.

Its time to let this thread die, from all the replies in this thread only about 3 or 4 people actually like/know/belong to "The Syndicate" the rest don't like/know/belong to this guild.

EDIT: Again I have nothing against "The Syndicate" and I wish them all the best, the views and opinions expressed on this post are mine alone and do not reflect the position of my Guild towards "The Syndicate".

Originally posted by Panilope

I don't recall asking you to convert to my viewpoint.

I don't recall understanding what this sentence means.

I don't recall requiring that you believe every word I say.

I don't recall that being necessary to raise an objection.

Frankly, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.

Clearly you do, else you would not post on forum and certainly not reply to responses, especially with a response like this.

There is plenty of typical forum trolling going on in this thread that I chose to offer a counter viewpoint based on our experience working with this guild.

Fair enough, I have no issues with that in and of itself.

If you don't like it or don't believe it or don't wish to accept the reality of it, that is your hangup, not mine.

Is it my hangup? No, I would say it is my privilege as a rational human being to be sceptical and question the "reality of it." You are claiming that someone who does not believe you has a problem, when the only "reality of it" is that dissenting opinions are perfectly normal and fine.

I don't recall asking you to prove to me why I should give a hoot what you post or why anything you say should be any more relevant than anything anyone else says did I?

I do not either, but then I never claimed that what I said was more relevant because I did not claim any form of authority; you did, which means your words, when substantiated are more relevant, and that is an earned privilege, not one granted for making unvalidated claims.

That is both the essence of what a forum means and it is also the primary reason forums are not used as a major source of gaming feedback.  They make people feel good because they get to post and let out their emotions but their actual value towards developing any meaningful content is nada.

I have no reply to this because it is a tangent and could be its own topic, "The psychology of forums."

But back to the topic you raised; I didn't ask you to prove you weren't a bully.  I just accepted that as fact.

If dissenting, debating, and not swallowing everything I read wholesale makes me a bully, then sure, I am a bully and proud of it.

You can either accept or dismiss my background but it doesn't really make a difference to me.

Thanks for the option, I choose the latter, thank you, but am willing to reconsider if you provide that tasty thing called proof.

I am not here to convince you of my views.

Excellent, then you will not be disappointed that you have not done so. By not seeking victory you have removed the possibility of defeat.

I am simply here to share them, the same as you.  the difference is, I don't make global statements on behalf of all the other readers about what they should or shouldn't believe.

And neither have I. I, too, stated my opinion, and you are just upset that it happens to call your opinion a fabrication. Be that as it may, other readers and posters are free to agree with me, agree with you, or form a new view.

Like I do in my day job, I make my case and let people decide what they will.   Since I don't think debating this with you will reach a conclusion you can accept, I do not see a reason to continue it.  I have said my piece.  You have said yours.  And with that, I wish you a good day and happy gaming.

Debating this with me could easily reach a conclusion I could accept, if you merely had the courage to back up claims with sources. You have claimed you work for a company that works with The Syndicate on professional projects, so prove it. Give us a link. Point to some things they have done. Tell us about what exactly your company does, how they do it, why they do it, and whom they do it for.

Anyway, it looks as though I touched upon a nerve.

There is a large difference between plainly stating an opinion on a forum, which many here have done quite well, and using credentials, inside sources, or other such things as the basis for one. The former does not attempt to gain validity by implying authority, while the latter certainly does.

If you want to reference companies, jobs, or sources, you have to come prepared to disclose them, else you add nothing to a discussion but smoke and mirrors. No rational person is going to believe someone who just happens to have an inside scoop, at a convenient time, yet makes no effort to validate it.

I have made no claims about my authority or credentials, as I have none pertinent to this discussion, so I do not have to provide any. If I were to claim I am an industry expert and wanted people to take my opinion seriously based on that, I would provide proof; hell, even just some names would help. You cannot even provide a name for the fabled company which relies on The Syndicate for various things. Therefore, while you certainly can say how you feel about the guild, you should also expect to be called out when that includes contact on a professional level, especially when it sounds like it came right off their own website.

I urge anyone to go to www.llts.org and see how much they stress how great they are on almost every page, whenever possible. While it is fair to mention achievements, this is so prevalent in almost every part of the site that you wonder if whoever is writing it can find hats to fit their head!

The best passage:

"Follow The Syndicate as they navigate the ever-changing online world and develop into an unstoppable juggernaut that shaped the future of the virtual world."

Who can write that? Honestly! An unstoppable juggernaut? Shaping the future of the virtual world. All of it. Not one part of it. The entire virtual world.

I don't understand why people who've not read the book are opening their mouth about it

If you've read it, please give some feed back. If you have not read it, please stfu.

I still can't believe how much bullsh!t I had to read thru, just to read the hand-full of post worth reading.

Thanks for the well thought and worded posts Panilope.

The rest of you go enjoy a game or a girlfriend, or read a good book

We would like to once again than Jon for taking the time to read our book and offer up his review of it.  The large volume of emails we have received to discuss various aspects of it and of our guild has been amazing.  Just in the past week we were able to help three guilds begin the process of trademarking their guild names.  We were able to work with several guilds to help flesh out their recruiting practices and/or their internal rules to help them develop stability in their communities....  MMORPG.COM was able to help us make those new friends and hopefully strengthen the overall gaming community a little bit more.

While we do have a high opinion of ourselves and our achievements, we are also HUGE supporters of a stable, successful online gaming community....  Whether you measure your success by how quickly you defeat a monster.. or your prowess against other players in battle.. or by the longevity and stability of your community.. or by the amount of fun you have with your buddies.. there is room enough for all to have fun and be their own 'success' in the virtual worlds.  If we haven't already met and become friends and if our path and yours can cross in a positive way in the future we would love to make contact with you and your guild.  A stronger community benefits us all.  It means more people playing games for longer.  That means more revenue for developers which means more investment in new games which leads to new and exciting worlds for us all to enjoy for years to come. 

We do recognize there will still be naysayers out there that like to put us or others down.  That is the nature of the beast when it comes to online gaming.  We subscribe to the sentiment behind the following quote when it comes to dealing with that: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."  We look forward to many years of fun, successful, rewarding online gaming and community development with all of you. 

Originally posted by Syndicate

We would like to once again than Jon for taking the time to read our book and offer up his review of it.  The large volume of emails we have received to discuss various aspects of it and of our guild has been amazing.  Just in the past week we were able to help three guilds begin the process of trademarking their guild names.  We were able to work with several guilds to help flesh out their recruiting practices and/or their internal rules to help them develop stability in their communities....  MMORPG.COM was able to help us make those new friends and hopefully strengthen the overall gaming community a little bit more.

While we do have a high opinion of ourselves and our achievements, we are also HUGE supporters of a stable, successful online gaming community....  Whether you measure your success by how quickly you defeat a monster.. or your prowess against other players in battle.. or by the longevity and stability of your community.. or by the amount of fun you have with your buddies.. there is room enough for all to have fun and be their own 'success' in the virtual worlds.  If we haven't already met and become friends and if our path and yours can cross in a positive way in the future we would love to make contact with you and your guild.  A stronger community benefits us all.  It means more people playing games for longer.  That means more revenue for developers which means more investment in new games which leads to new and exciting worlds for us all to enjoy for years to come. 

We do recognize there will still be naysayers out there that like to put us or others down.  That is the nature of the beast when it comes to online gaming.  We subscribe to the sentiment behind the following quote when it comes to dealing with that: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."  We look forward to many years of fun, successful, rewarding online gaming and community development with all of you. 

To be fair and balanced, I'll say that this post was MUCH better than your original.  Better wording, tone, and topic.  Very different than the arrogance filled first one.  Nice job adjusting/improving the PR.

Originally posted by Panilope

Bountytaker, your observation is valid if all we did was work with one group and all decisions were based off of that one set of interactions.  My comments above were an explanation as to why we did work with The Syndicate but should not be taken as policy statement that the only thing we do is to work with them.  A book could be written entirely on the topic of how game concepts are created and fleshed out.  Myself and our entire team are all gamers the same as any other development team.  So a primary source for ideas is our own experience.  Many of us are in guilds.  A couple of my team are in The Syndicate but many more of us are in other guilds.  We discuss ideas with the people we know there and factor that in.  A common thing studios do is to run focus groups.  They are another source of input.  Sometimes marketing companies are engaged to do their own focus groups and research.  The big trump card is, of course, the actual beta test.  We do closed betas and internal betas and friends and family betas and guild betas and the like in order to get feedback.  My post above merely states why we do work with The Syndicate and what they bring to the table for us.  We do a great deal of other information collection and fleshing out of ideas from a variety of sources.

 

I am sure someone will point out that I didn't really mention forums as a source.  Every game has forums but there is a very low signal to noise ratio on them.  Too many complainers and whiners with incoherent thoughts.  Too many varying minority viewpoints that often conflict with each other.  What we use forums for is to look for constructive participants that we can then include in our focus groups and in our beta testing.  Those people don't have to agree with the majority, and it is often good if they don't, but we do not value or utilize flames and whining posts which often dominate forums.

 

The Syndicate is a group that we are glad to work with and have as a part of our process but it is not the only part of our process.  A fantastic amount of ideas go into designing a game and those come from a bunch of sources.

 

My point, simply, was that as much as "longevity" might make a group seem optimal for advice, isn't there also the high probability, in the mmo genre, that choosing advisors based on "longevitiy" could also be detrimental.

If you want to comment on that specific topic, your comments and mine, feel free.  If you're done, that's fine too.

Bountytaker, I agree with you about longevity if it is the sole determining factor in who we or any company works with.  A better way to have explained myself would have been to highlight the qualities we look for and explain that those qualities take time to develop.  Since there are so many guilds overloading the gaming world and because most of them are flashes in the pan, most groups do not develop those qualities to the extent that they get noticed and validated by we the development teams.  If we are all being honest here, we should be able to agree that many of the most vocal forum guilds during the beta stage are often nonexistant by the time the game begins or within a few months of the game going live.  So longevity is a means by which qualities such as stability, a track record of success, a reputation for quality work that includes meeting deadlines and producing meaningful results and the like can be created.  Simply being old, as you said, is not sufficient.  It takes a great deal of time to develop a meaningful track record so you stand out from the swarm of guilds out there. 

Longevity, therefore, is an important component to my personal scorecard when I look for partners in the community.  You could equate it to applying for a job.  If you send in a resume that contains very little experience you are less likely to get the job.  In order to have a resume that contains enough experience, time has to pass and you have to do noteworthy things during that time.  So at the risk of being slammed for pointing it out again, The Syndicate is very old and over their years of existence they have worked on many projects and have fleshed out their resume.  Because of that, I have a high level of confidence in their ability to produce results, in a timely manner, of the level of quality I need and expect.  They aren't the only source of player feedback we use but they are a valuable one.