Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Distopia

Not exactly true the underworld factions helped either side throughout the time-line. It wasn't always about who was the strongest either. It usually boiled down to which side would best serve their interests, or pay the highest price.

Yes, but how can a faction that is being dominated serve a criminal faction's interest better than a faction which has more control and resources? If the Empire were dominating the Republic, there would be no point in the criminal factions assisting the Republic because the Empire would always be more powerful and would always be more capable of "paying the highest price."

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Distopia

Not exactly true the underworld factions helped either side throughout the time-line. It wasn't always about who was the strongest either. It usually boiled down to which side would best serve their interests, or pay the highest price.

Yes, but how can a faction that is being dominated serve a criminal faction's interest better than a faction which has more control and resources? If the Empire were dominating the Republic, there would be no point in the criminal factions assisting the Republic because the Empire would always be more powerful and would always be more capable of "paying the highest price."

Well first you have to understand this is make believe, so the unrealistic can and will happen. A good example is the Thrawn trilogy. Where the smuggler ring decides to aid the Republic, even though things look bleak, they understand under their reign they're interests are better served. They allow system's to govern themselves, which opens more trade lanes. Under the control of the empire things are far more risky as well as locked down. It's not always about the highest price.

Two faction RvR is possible imo...although nobody has really formulated a system that can stand the test of time, i dont think its because it isnt possible, But as sanosukex said....companies just aren't capable of it.

Try to think of a company that you would entrust to make your dream pvp mmo....nothing?...yup....nada.

I would assume arenanet would have to win in a poll...but they set out to make an mmo based around arena style pvp, and theyve accomplished it, maybe in GW2 the masses will finnaly get a taste of good rvr...maybe.

Originally posted by sanosukex 
so you are saying one side even if is much smaller they have no shot in coming out on top? think you need to rewatch episodes iv to vi

What? No, I didn't say that. I said that a stronger faction has far more chances of recruiting criminal factions to work for them than a weaker one does because the stronger faction has more resources. In The Empire Strikes Back, Vader recruited several bounty hunters to work for the Empire. You think the Rebels would have this luxury? Of course not.

Originally posted by Distopia

Well first you have to understand this is make believe, so the unrealistic can and will happen. A good example is the Thrawn trilogy. Where the smuggler ring decides to aid the Republic, even though things look bleak, they understand under their reign they're interests are better served. They allow system's to govern themselves, which opens more trade lanes. Under the control of the empire things are far more risky as well as locked down. It's not always about the highest price.

Think of it this way: If DAoC's RvR system were used and there were 3 factions - Republic, Empire, and Neutral, how could it ever make sense that the Neutral faction becomes the strongest of the three? How could it ever make sense that Republic and the Empire would work together to destroy the Neutral faction???

Originally posted by youngkg

Two faction RvR is possible imo...although nobody has really formulated a system that can stand the test of time, i dont think its because it isnt possible, But as sanosukex said....companies just aren't capable of it.

 

Try to think of a company that you would entrust to make your dream pvp mmo....nothing?...yup....nada.

 

I would assume arenanet would have to win in a poll...but they set out to make an mmo based around arena style pvp, and theyve accomplished it, maybe in GW2 the masses will finnaly get a taste of good rvr...maybe.

Hmmm...Mythic maybe? They did it once with Dark Age of Camelot, which I thought this thread was about and not Star Wars, and can do it again if given the right amount of time.

Seems fairly simple to me. You can have two factions with a neutral faction willing to aid the highest bidder. Then just use in game mechanics to make helping the losing faction more rewarding. Yes, the larger side would logically have more resources, but jobs offered by the underdog would be tougher which would call for a higher reward, after all, a smuggler would demand more money for a riskier job.

Just a thought on how a two faction game with a neutral faction could work. Of course you would also need some measure of what it means to be losing, and it would need to be dynamic enough to adjust the rewards in real time. And balance isn't so hard since the neutral faction doesn't really need to be balanced as they would bounce from one side to the other. So there are still only two sides to balance.

Originally posted by n2sooners

Seems fairly simple to me. You can have two factions with a neutral faction willing to aid the highest bidder. Then just use in game mechanics to make helping the losing faction more rewarding. Yes, the larger side would logically have more resources, but jobs offered by the underdog would be tougher which would call for a higher reward, after all, a smuggler would demand more money for a riskier job.

 

Just a thought on how a two faction game with a neutral faction could work. Of course you would also need some measure of what it means to be losing, and it would need to be dynamic enough to adjust the rewards in real time. And balance isn't so hard since the neutral faction doesn't really need to be balanced as they would bounce from one side to the other. So there are still only two sides to balance.

Willing to aid the highest bidder? Lol.. Not only would the stronger faction be able to outbid the weaker faction, the neutral faction would always help the stronger faction because it would be a lot easier to do so. Now the weaker faction is fighting not only the stronger faction, but also a neutral one. Fail.

Hey I see Dark Pony has got a new signature, very him and very SWtOR. :)

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Originally posted by Loke666

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Originally posted by stealthbr
Do you people even know what neutrality means? The Hutts and other criminal syndicates refrain from participating in the wars between Republic and Empire. There are, of course, exceptions where a neutral faction may provide a service to the Empire or whatever, but in the greater scheme of things they do not wage all out galactic war like the Republic and Empire do. Furthermore, these neutral factions are significantly fragmented or simply really small and insignificant. Someone does not serve under the Hutt faction, they serve under a specific Hutt, therefore considering the Hutts a third faction would be entirely illogical.

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They do still come into conflicts with one or the other side at times, they are just smaller and work on a smaller scale.
If you made it right you could actually use that in PvP as well, but that side would be more interested in sneaking in and stealing stuff than in killing the other side. And frankly is Bioware using mostly their own lore, that why they set it so long before the movies so if there was a more powerful syndicate at that time wouldn't really affect the official lore anyways.
Yeah, I agree that they ain't perfect but neither is really the current system. Making all smugglers republic is just simplifying things a lot. 

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Would be interesting to see a third neutral faction with diplomacy, trade and espionage as it's primary weapons in a 3-faction game.

Edit: Beaten to it

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by youngkg

Two faction RvR is possible imo...although nobody has really formulated a system that can stand the test of time, i dont think its because it isnt possible, But as sanosukex said....companies just aren't capable of it.

 

Try to think of a company that you would entrust to make your dream pvp mmo....nothing?...yup....nada.

 

I would assume arenanet would have to win in a poll...but they set out to make an mmo based around arena style pvp, and theyve accomplished it, maybe in GW2 the masses will finnaly get a taste of good rvr...maybe.

Hmmm...Mythic maybe? They did it once with Dark Age of Camelot, which I thought this thread was about and not Star Wars, and can do it again if given the right amount of time.

Mythic is gone now...Key people have left to form a new company and some have been absorbed into Bioware and are working on TOR, I would love to see a daoc 2.0 but thats not happening...closest thing we are gettin in terms of RvR is GW2 apparently.

Edit: also i highly doubt EA wants to take there crosshairs off of WOW, Why try to capture a market that never surpassed 1 million subs when you can aim for WOW subs which are in the 4+ish million in the US.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by bobfish

I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.

/thread

The entire Star Wars IP is built around two factions fighting each other, not three.

Really? What faction is Han Solo at the beginning of the films? Jabba? Lando Carlisian?

2 factions is just a dramatic oversimplification for the kiddies. Nothing more. Kids need to believe in the "good guys" and the "bad guys." It's just infantilism (which actually leads to totalitarianism and war, as the history has amply demonstrated, but I digress.)

I loved the original Star Wars exactly because it contained not only "shades of grey" but a few extra colors as well. The core reason prequel movies are so bland is because Lucas sold his soul to the devil and went for the good guys vs bad guys thing without anything else. The originals were movies for adolescents that adults could enjoy as well. Today's SW is crud for slow pre-teens. My 8-year old daughter said they were crap, while really enjoying the original trilogy.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by n2sooners

Seems fairly simple to me. You can have two factions with a neutral faction willing to aid the highest bidder. Then just use in game mechanics to make helping the losing faction more rewarding. Yes, the larger side would logically have more resources, but jobs offered by the underdog would be tougher which would call for a higher reward, after all, a smuggler would demand more money for a riskier job.

 

Just a thought on how a two faction game with a neutral faction could work. Of course you would also need some measure of what it means to be losing, and it would need to be dynamic enough to adjust the rewards in real time. And balance isn't so hard since the neutral faction doesn't really need to be balanced as they would bounce from one side to the other. So there are still only two sides to balance.

Willing to aid the highest bidder? Lol.. Not only would the stronger faction be able to outbid the weaker faction, the neutral faction would always help the stronger faction because it would be a lot easier to do so. Now the weaker faction is fighting not only the stronger faction, but also a neutral one. Fail.

Not really. The man clearly stated that the game mechanics would provide better rewards for helping the weaker faction.

Actually this is quite a good idea for a 2+1 faction game. I believe Aion attempted something like that with their NPC faction but it didn't work out very well...

However, imagine: You have 5 open PvP planets and only 2 "main" factions can actually capture and hold territory. If one faction holds say, 4 out of those planets than XP and drop rewards for killing that faction are 3 or 4 times bigger than for killing the weaker faction. The "neutral" faction players still have a choice of which faction to help out, but the majority will side with the underdog out of pure greed (which is actually good for RP).

As a matter of fact, after killing all of the stronger faction members, the dastardly mercenaries may turn on their erstwhile allies at the last moment just to scoop some extra loot! Or the weaker faction might decide to wipe out mercs at that point, just to be sure. Great RP all the way!

It's a cool idea, imo.

In fact, if you don't have faction-specific classes you could even have elegant and gradual  faction switching in game, using this system... Which would be very Star Warsy indeed.

I like it a lot. Might use the idea in a bg of mine... Thnx mate!

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by bobfish

I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.

/thread

The entire Star Wars IP is built around two factions fighting each other, not three.

Really? What faction is Han Solo at the beginning of the films? Jabba? Lando Carlisian?

2 factions is just a dramatic oversimplification for the kiddies. Nothing more. Kids need to believe in the "good guys" and the "bad guys." It's just infantilism (which actually leads to totalitarianism and war, as the history has amply demonstrated, but I digress.)

I loved the original Star Wars exactly because it contained not only "shades of grey" but a few extra colors as well. The core reason prequel movies are so bland is because Lucas sold his soul to the devil and went for the good guys vs bad guys thing without anything else. The originals were movies for adolescents that adults could enjoy as well. Today's SW is crud for slow pre-teens. My 8-year old daughter said they were crap, while really enjoying the original trilogy.

star wars has ALWAYS been 2 faction based, good vs evil, you can live in denial all you want and pretend that somehow it was different before, but it was ALWAYS set up that the empire was evil and rebels were good, there were no shades of grey.

Hell, until the prequal ere stuff, there wasnt even a neutral faction, as far as anyone knew jabba controlled a few things on tattoine, and didnt control a whole faction of guys, having some guys that arnt in either major side doesnt magically lump them all together in a third faction, solo was nothing more than a delivery boy for jabba, plain and simple.

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by bobfish

I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.

/thread

The entire Star Wars IP is built around two factions fighting each other, not three.

Really? What faction is Han Solo at the beginning of the films? Jabba? Lando Carlisian?

2 factions is just a dramatic oversimplification for the kiddies. Nothing more. Kids need to believe in the "good guys" and the "bad guys." It's just infantilism (which actually leads to totalitarianism and war, as the history has amply demonstrated, but I digress.)

I loved the original Star Wars exactly because it contained not only "shades of grey" but a few extra colors as well. The core reason prequel movies are so bland is because Lucas sold his soul to the devil and went for the good guys vs bad guys thing without anything else. The originals were movies for adolescents that adults could enjoy as well. Today's SW is crud for slow pre-teens. My 8-year old daughter said they were crap, while really enjoying the original trilogy.

star wars has ALWAYS been 2 faction based, good vs evil, you can live in denial all you want and pretend that somehow it was different before, but it was ALWAYS set up that the empire was evil and rebels were good, there were no shades of grey.

 

Hell, until the prequal ere stuff, there wasnt even a neutral faction, as far as anyone knew jabba controlled a few things on tattoine, and didnt control a whole faction of guys, having some guys that arnt in either major side doesnt magically lump them all together in a third faction, solo was nothing more than a delivery boy for jabba, plain and simple.

Oh really?

Newsflash, role-playing is all about characters. As are literature and films btw. Meditate on that and understand.

While a story may revolve around good and evil, it is exactly the neutrals, the guys inbetween and to the side and their choices that emphasize the epic struggle. What would Frodo be without Gollum? Aragorn without Boromir? What would Luke be without Han? What would Han be without Lando and his dancing on the thin edge?

A neutral, mercenary faction would be just the ticket in Star Wars because it's always been there in films and books. It's not a black-and-white chess game, you know. If it were it would be totally dull. Actually as dull as the prequels and SW:TOR are. Real life and good stories simply do not work that way.