"Why does the three realm break down in Dark Age of Camelot work so well? How come we have not seen it replicated as much in MMOs as it probably should have been?

There are many reasons why the three realm system works, but I think the biggest is the self-balancing. When one realm gets too far ahead, it's only a matter of time before the other two realms knock them down a notch. This allows for an ever changing and engaging RvR gamespace and reduces the feeling of hopelessness that can occur with a 2 sided conflict. With only 2 sides, if one gets too far ahead, it is tough for the underdogs to make a comeback.

As to why we haven't seen three realm RvR more, I think that is because of the difficulty that is inherent with it. It is a lot of hard work to balance a game for two sides, let alone three. Even after 10 years, we are still tweaking things here and there."

-darkageofcamelot.com 2012

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/11/feature/5972/Dark-Age-of-Camelot-The-10-Year-Interview.html 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, but is SWtOR set up even as a realm verus realm MMO? Do we have planets we fight over and hold for example? Not thinking of open world PvP here, thats always a mistake. In DAOC we held regions against the other two sides, not sure SWtoR has that setup?

There is open world PvP objectives, but to be fair the best gear in the game is obtained through PvE. It is heavily PvE focused.

I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.

WAR should've been three factions though :(

The main reason that 3 realms does not work is that in most implementations of realms you can only group with that fraction of people who belong to the same realm for PvE.

This is because the 3 realms for pvp purposes was also applied to PvE.  Even a popular game like WoW with only 2 realms, made it hard to find a group if you were a member of an unpopular realm.

Any game design with 3 realms would need to  consider what affect, if any, this would have on PvE.

This is obvious and has been said many times but the devs. dont care. They care about reducing costs and it takes less time to develop two factions instead of three. And since PvP is not the focus of this game they dont care if it gets imbalanced or not.

Just look at the upcoming patch notes. How much PvE content do you have there compared to PvP content? I would say the ratio is something like 5:1.

Just like bobfish said, the Star Wars IP just doesn't support a 3rd warring faction and because of that, it wouldn't work. So even if Bioware fixes all the underlying issues with Illium and make it worth fighting for, it will still fall into the same problems of all 2 faction MMORPGs... faction imbalance. Which is why the only large scale PvP, I can even imagine working, in the upcoming batch of MMOs are: Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2. All because of that third faction, to mix things up and prevent these wars from remaining one-sided.

Originally posted by bobfish

I don't think Star Wars has a natural third faction though, even considering the Hutts, it just doesn't work. So whilst three factions is better, it isn't suitable for every IP.

/thread

The entire Star Wars IP is built around two factions fighting each other, not three.

Quick reminder that carrots are good for you!

edit: Yes, I know. That's off topic, but it beats making my own redundant thread about it.

Originally posted by Yamota

 

Just look at the upcoming patch notes. How much PvE content do you have there compared to PvP content? I would say the ratio is something like 5:1.

perhaps thats the same sort of ratio of PvE'rs to PvP'rs in the world of MMO..... 

Originally posted by thorwood

The main reason that 3 realms does not work is that in most implementations of realms you can only group with that fraction of people who belong to the same realm for PvE.

This is because the 3 realms for pvp purposes was also applied to PvE.  Even a popular game like WoW with only 2 realms, made it hard to find a group if you were a member of an unpopular realm.

Any game design with 3 realms would need to  consider what affect, if any, this would have on PvE.

Well, there are different solutions to that.

The simplest is just to let all realms group with eachother for PvE, but that can kinda get messy on PvP servers.

Cross server dungeon finders will do the job fine as well.

No trinity like in GW2 also make it easier to get a group, no need to find that tank or healer.

Another GW2 feature that works fine is to let the players change server when they want to, if a server is empty of your realm you change to another.

Lesser gap between mnin and max level also helps, that means more players have the right level for a dungeon to be challenging at any time.

Another possibility is to actually have larger servers with more players.

There are plenty of solutions to the whole problem anyways...

Originally posted by Master10K

Just like bobfish said, the Star Wars IP just doesn't support a 3rd warring faction and because of that, it wouldn't work. So even if Bioware fixes all the underlying issues with Illium and make it worth fighting for, it will still fall into the same problems of all 2 faction MMORPGs... faction imbalance. Which is why the only large scale PvP, I can even imagine working, in the upcoming batch of MMOs are: Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2. All because of that third faction, to mix things up and prevent these wars from remaining one-sided.

Makes more sense than having Republic only Smugglers and Empire only Bounty Hunters :/

Originally posted by Yamota

This is obvious and has been said many times but the devs. dont care. They care about reducing costs and it takes less time to develop two factions instead of three. And since PvP is not the focus of this game they dont care if it gets imbalanced or not.

 

I agree..  but it still makes no sense.

If the reason for not going three faction is because two faction is less work, then why not abandon the idea of factional conflict altogether and go with one faction?  That is less work - and its not like any of these games cared about world PvP.. maybe its a token gesture?

I think this has more to do with WoW setting the trend as a financial success and then nobody daring to break the mold.

However, that all has nothing to do with SWToR..  the lore simply doesnt allow an effective 3 faction system or a 1 faction really (unless the sith are npc's or something). 

Originally posted by Tawn47

Originally posted by Yamota

This is obvious and has been said many times but the devs. dont care. They care about reducing costs and it takes less time to develop two factions instead of three. And since PvP is not the focus of this game they dont care if it gets imbalanced or not.

 

I agree..  but it still makes no sense.

If the reason for not going three faction is because two faction is less work, then why not abandon the idea of factional conflict altogether and go with one faction?  That is less work - and its not like any of these games cared about world PvP.. maybe its a token gesture?

I think this has more to do with WoW setting the trend as a financial success and then nobody daring to break the mold.

However, that all has nothing to do with SWToR..  the lore simply doesnt allow an effective 3 faction system or a 1 faction really (unless the sith are npc's or something). 

 

I have read star wars books with force users not affiliated with either the Sith or Jedi order so you make a neutral force user class set then you got smugglers and bounty hunters... only issue is story wise it would be more difficult but not impossible

Originally posted by Master10K

Just like bobfish said, the Star Wars IP just doesn't support a 3rd warring faction and because of that, it wouldn't work. So even if Bioware fixes all the underlying issues with Illium and make it worth fighting for, it will still fall into the same problems of all 2 faction MMORPGs... faction imbalance. Which is why the only large scale PvP, I can even imagine working, in the upcoming batch of MMOs are: Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2. All because of that third faction, to mix things up and prevent these wars from remaining one-sided.

Well, the IP do have some criminal syndicates like the Huts so a neutral side do exist within the IP. And smugglers could really belong to that faction instead of the republic, they are working against the local law whatever that is. Only reason Han Solo was at the republican side at all was because his friends and his love for Leia.

If think that they could have added a third neutral faction between the Siths and Jedis without breaking the lore. Besides, TOR do have combat healers and that is actually right against the lore so bending the lore to make the IP fit the game is not really a problem to anyone.

Do you people even know what neutrality means? The Hutts and other criminal syndicates refrain from participating in the wars between Republic and Empire. There are, of course, exceptions where a neutral faction may provide a service to the Empire or whatever, but in the greater scheme of things they do not wage all out galactic war like the Republic and Empire do. Furthermore, these neutral factions are significantly fragmented or simply really small and insignificant. Someone does not serve under the Hutt faction, they serve under a specific Hutt, therefore considering the Hutts a third faction would be entirely illogical.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Do you people even know what neutrality means? The Hutts and other criminal syndicates refrain from participating in the wars between Republic and Empire. There are, of course, rare exceptions where a neutral faction may provide a service to the Empire or whatever, but in the greater scheme of things they do not wage all out galactic war like the Republic and Empire do.

 

well you got the sepretists who were not really either side although they got influenced by the empire... there were options out there for a nuetral faction

Dude you don't understand. Neutral factions either do not wage war, or they provide services to whoever promises them more. If one side is dominating the other, that stronger side can promise more to the neutral factions therefore making the conflict even more one-sided. Say, for instance, the Republic is being dominated by the Empire. The neutral factions won't go help the Republic. Quite the contrary, they will end up helping the Empire, which has far more power and influence which can benefit these neutral factions.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Do you people even know what neutrality means? The Hutts and other criminal syndicates refrain from participating in the wars between Republic and Empire. There are, of course, exceptions where a neutral faction may provide a service to the Empire or whatever, but in the greater scheme of things they do not wage all out galactic war like the Republic and Empire do. Furthermore, these neutral factions are significantly fragmented or simply really small and insignificant. Someone does not serve under the Hutt faction, they serve under a specific Hutt, therefore considering the Hutts a third faction would be entirely illogical.

They do still come into conflicts with one or the other side at times, they are just smaller and work on a smaller scale.

If you made it right you could actually use that in PvP as well, but that side would be more interested in sneaking in and stealing stuff than in killing the other side. And frankly is Bioware using mostly their own lore, that why they set it so long before the movies so if there was a more powerful syndicate at that time wouldn't really affect the official lore anyways.

Yeah, I agree that they ain't perfect but neither is really the current system. Making all smugglers republic is just simplifying things a lot. 

Originally posted by stealthbr

Dude you don't understand. Neutral factions either do not wage war, or they provide services to whoever promises them more. If one side is dominating the other, that stronger side can promise more to the neutral factions therefore making the conflict even more one-sided. Say, for instance, the Republic is being dominated by the Empire. The neutral factions won't go help the Republic. Quite the contrary, they will end up helping the Empire, which has far more power and influence which can benefit these neutral factions.

 

my pre episode iv history is a little rusty but didn't the sepretists start a war? Wasn't episode I's droid army a third party? Not imperial or republic

Originally posted by sanosukex

 

my pre episode iv history is a little rusty but didn't the sepretists start a war? Wasn't episode I's droid army a third party? Not imperial or republic

The Separatists started the blockade under orders of the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. They were formed and controlled by the Sith. What I'm saying is, when the Republic crumbled, the neutral factions didn't really care. The Neutral don't help out the underdog to bring down the strongest faction. They help the strongest faction, which would cause even more unbalances.