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Dark Age of Camelot Interviews: Jeff Hickman on WAR, DAoC and the Future
MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller had the opportunity to speak with EA Mythic's Jeff Hickman after his presentation at AGDC. In this interview, Hickman discusses the future of MMOs, mistakes with WAR and hints at a possible rejuvenation of Dark Age of Camelot.
By Garrett Fuller on September 22, 2009
Jeff Hickman is Executive Producer at EA Mythic. He has worked on several titles including Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online. Jeff gave a presentation at AGDC which outlined how players will purchase and play games in the future and what design ideas we might see years from now. He also touched on some of the areas where Warhammer went wrong and explained some improvements they are trying to make for the future on all of Mythic's products. After his presentation I had a chance to interview Jeff, sadly the video interview was lost, sorry Jeff, but I'll try to highlight some of the points he made.
Jeff explained that digital distribution is important in the future for games. There will always be boxed sales, but with services like STEAM and other digital download companies, getting games directly online easier than ever to do. In the future, more and more people will be downloading games online than going to the store to buy them.
Games will continue their trend to grow online. Almost every game in the future will have some aspect of online play to it. The phrase MMO will simply apply to every game across the board. In this change, the customer service of game companies will become more critical. Once players join an online game, it is important for the customer support to be top notch. Not just the help desk, but the community management as well.
Jeff continued on to talk about Mythic's history and future. Mythic started making much smaller online games in the 1990s. Then started work on Dark Age of Camelot which was a huge success for the studio. The game launched as being one of the best PvP experiences in the online market and filled a niche that Everquest never really offered. Dark Age of Camelot remains active today, and I bugged Jeff endlessly in our talk about giving the game a face lift and a more up to date look for the current MMO space to bring some players back. More on that later.
Jeff next talked about Warhammer and some of the problems they had when they launched the game. He listed three mistakes they made when designing the game early on. The first being easy of play, by this he said that the opening zones were too easy for players and did not add any risk or value. I can remember flying through the first ten levels without so much as a scratch on my character. This did not invest players enough in the risks of the dark and gritty Warhammer world.
Next Jeff explained that the game lacked certain social tools that worked to bring players together. While guild leveling was an important element, players still had very little reason to play together unless they joined a PvP scenario. Also, if you remember the mail system in Warhammer, it is one of the worst. Mail needed to be more fluid and easier to use for players. These failed efforts in social tools did not give players any reason for players to socialize.
The last place that the game had its problems right from the beginning was with its economy. Mythic was so extreme on getting rid of gold farmers that did not realize it made their economy pointless for the player. Jeff explained that commerce between o people can help build relationships between friends or guilds. With Warhammer's current economy there is very little need for gold. Right from the start this caused problems.
In talking with Jeff during our interview after the presentation, he also admitted that the W.A.R. team is working very hard to fix certain problems in the game. Right now, class balance and end game PvP are two of the problems Jeff explained needed some heavy repairs. He said the team is pushing to get these problems solved so PvP can get back to the forefront in the end game. Yes, Jeff knows AoE and crowd control need work.
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Back to the presentation: Jeff talked about two elements of Warhammer that worked out very well in the game, the first being Public Quests, which are a great milestone in MMOs. The public quest system did well in bringing players together even if they were not in guilds and allowed them to work together. Public Quests did a lot for Warhammer both on a social level and on a game advancement level. Now players had a system to work together for loot as well. The next element that worked out very well for Warhammer was the open grouping system. Used especially in PvP the open grouping tools facilitated the need to get players together and into the battles on the map.
Overall Jeff's presentation was a good one. It was afterwards though that I got the chance to pressure him about Dark Age of Camelot. Many players remember DAOC as having the best PvP experience in the online game space. It is often referenced as the prime model for PvP, oddly enough no one has captured its format again. The key to DAOC was that three factions, Albion, Midgard, and Hibernia were all fighting it out for control. Mythic put in some expansions that sadly diluted the experience over time. Trials of Atlantis and New Frontiers were two that many people say did the game in. When Jeff asked me if I would like to go back to DAOC the way it was in the beginning I got excited.
It is great when an Executive Producer says, what would you do with Dark Age of Camelot? Well I explained that maybe a sequel would be the way to go. Or perhaps revamp the game with an updated engine, new graphics and art, and keep the world in its old form with game play very close to the way people remember it. Jeff smiled, smirked is more like it, for a very long time. Jeff said that they are hiring right now on the Dark Age of Camelot team. We can only hope DAOC will see a rejuvenation back to its old awesome PvP self.
"When Jeff asked me if I would like to go back to DAOC the way it was in the beginning I got excited.
It is great when an Executive Producer says, what would you do with Dark Age of Camelot? Well I explained that maybe a sequel would be the way to go. Or perhaps revamp the game with an updated engine, new graphics and art, and keep the world in its old form with game play very close to the way people remember it. Jeff smiled, smirked is more like it, for a very long time. Jeff said that they are hiring right now on the Dark Age of Camelot team. We can only hope DAOC will see a rejuvenation back to its old awesome PvP self."
There's hope yet! OMIDAWG!
Couldn't have said it better myself :D
His three reasons are completely worthless.
Here is the problem with WAR.
You must PvE to PvP, and the endgame is based on PvE. To many areas for PvP and to little population to fill them even if the server was maxed out, making the instant action PvP the best choice.
/endthread
DAOC 2 ???!!!!
Please tell me its true!!!
omg yes!
Re-vamp in a new engine and new weapon looks but same names...!!!
we hold all the love in the world for DAoC and would come back as me and all my crew / brute squad guild were into the original gates wars and story lines.
the game had it all... come on man do it .
if you did you most likly would burn down D3 and Aion .
long live Hibernia !!!
They were right about the social aspect missing in WAR, part of this was the chat system and part was the public quests which required zero interaction to get involved in and to execute. Odd, that they still see public quests as a strength.
But the MAIN THING that WAR missed on was the "world." They designed a linear arena, which felt very contrived and non-immersive. FRIENDLY NOOB ZONE --> FRIENDLY MID ZONE --> FRIENDLY HIGH ZONE --> CONTESTED ZONE <-- ENEMY HIGH ZONE <-- ENEMY MID ZONE <-- ENEMY NOOB ZONE. Not an exact representation, but close to their model; just a line really. So, just how artificial is a design like that?
WAR should have had a "world".
I would like to see a revamp on DAOC. Maybe change it up just a bit, but not so much as to lose its original charm. Graphics update, plus UI and combat/magic system updates should work.
DAoC is still one of my favorite MMO experiences to date. Back before ToA the game was amazing - long siege battles, trying to level and getting ganked -- thus causing mini-wars. Man those were the days :)
WAR should have capitalized on what the people wanted. Here is hoping for a DAoC 2 that I can spend hours and hours and hours... etc.. playing :)
PS - My wife hates the idea of a DAoC 2 -- she remembers me saying "Ya, dinner, be there in a minute." and not eating for another hour lol
You now, I wouldn't advise them to "revamp" DAOC, even if that's what they end up doing. I think there would be more interest in releasing a DAOC 2 (and calling it that).
They should retain the guts of DAOC, update all graphics, UI, and systems, then release an entirely new game called DAOC 2. Folks would be all over that, I'm guessing.
id be more excited to see the same old daoc world again. that same environment, those same game dynamics, combined with a renewed massive community like the game used to have, is more than enough for me. graphics upgrades wouldnt hurt either. a new game world would just scare me-- WAR with DAOC as the disguised IP. bleh.
id die for DAOC2. but if they mess it up, id also kill for it O_o
As I am; DAoC was pure enjoyment! I know of a few others who would love to see a ^better/updated^ DAoC I wasn't really surprised what was said of WAR, by all that have commented thus far.
They should name it ''Dark Age of Camelot: The Second Coming"
If they can't face the facts, I have no hope for any future games from them.
They lost most people when they launched with totally broken classes and such awful balancing between classes and factions that the game just wasn't fun to play.
We'll never know the real reasons why WAR launched as is...however one can reasonably infer that EA had much to do with it. That being said...a return to Camelot would be wonderful - as long as there's no 'New Frontiers'.
BRING BACK the golf course :D!
Aside from the botters I could deal with everything else from DAoC. I'm not much for pvp but for some reason when I played DAoC I was felt a sudden urge to explore the frontiers and hunt those dirty hibbies. MIDGARD RULES!!!!!!
As someone who didnt play DaoC, can someone tell me some highlights of it's features?
I.E Is there crafting/gahtering ? Full loot .. And so on.
Ive often heard about it from people whom i used to play UO with as something good.
Jeff, please don't get my hopes up over DAoC if you're not really serious. If I could go back to DAoC pre ToA, with some updating with the good things out of today's MMOs, I'd do it in a flash. Man, just the thought gives me chills.
Ion
I enjoyed Warhammer Online. There are many fun things about it, but in the end I quit playing, more to try other mmos rather than because of its faults. I think I will re-sub to DAoC. I loved that mmo. Anyone still play?
As someone who played doac up until toa i had high hopes that war would be an amazing game. Unfortunately mythic learned nothing from their mistakes with daoc and his 3 big reasons why war didnt do as well as hoped only highlight this.
Dark Age of Camelot 2!
/signed in blood...Hibbie blood!
I played DAoC for almost 7 years, only reason I quit was I couldn't afford it ;_;
I've said for awhile, alot of people would buy a DAoC2 even if it was the exact same game (original, maybe with SI, but original was best) just updated engine and graphics...I wouldn't need to eat if that happened, so I could afford it then :)
They wouldn't spring for a new engine for Warhammer. Why would you expect them to do so for DAoC?
I played DAoC from day 1 for about 5 years. It was a great game but it to had its faults.
In todays age of gaming the combat system is pretty bare-bones. There are attack chains and the like but it would need some more flesh added to the combat system. CC was a major issue in DAoC on release (Stungard anyone?) and although better now at the higer levels of the game (Determinations / purges etc) CC is still a major balancing issue with any PvP game.
The major issues I had with DAoC was the Cross-playstyles.
By that I mean, initially there were no realm ranks. We RvR'd because we enjoyed it. We RvR'd for realm pride. They added realm ranks which was great, my issue is with they way they rewarded realm ranks. The rewards were universal, meaning that they effected the PvE game as well. This was very apparent to the PvE player base and they raised concerns right there. It ment that PvE players HAD to RvR in order to stay in league with thier peer's who RvR'd and PvE'd. This was'ent a welcome change for the PvE crowd (yes DAoC did have a PvE aspect too) Of course this was shot down on the forums (Vn, Mythic had no official forums) with yells of "DAoC is a PvP game" "N00b" and so on.
Of course this all came about face with the release of ToA (Trials of Atlantis) which added Master levels and Artifacts. This was PvE. On the flip side tho these PvE aspects had an impact in RvR. Of course this was a blow to the RvR crowd who felt now that they HAD to PvE in order to RvR (Which they did) Shoe was on the other foot with the RvR crowd bitching and the PvE crowd telling them to sux it up.
This was IMO DAoC's main flaw. Cross-over gaming. PvE rewards should only have "value" in PvE. RvR (Or PvP) rewards should only have "Value" in RvR. If they had played to this model with realm rank rewards only effecting the RvR game and PvE rewards only effecting the PvE game they would'ent have lost subs after the Realm Rank additions (admittedly these losses were minimal since DAoC was billed as a PvP game) but they lost ALOT of subs after the TOA expac.
Players still cited the "TOA" expansion as being a reason for leaving months after the Xpac and to this day you have vets that take issue with the TOA xpac.
If there is a DAoC2, I would hope that they can be more foward thinking and seperate apects of game play minimizing "cross-over" Its how you keep both "factions" of players happy and playing .. dont force them to play aspects of the game that hold no interest for them in order to play the aspects that they do actually like.
My input.
This isn't just a problem with Mythic. WoW had plenty of these issues early on. A lot of players crap on resilience, but it was a decent answer to a serious problem. The other thing Blizzard did well was have a LOT of the CC not work on humanoids. That was a glaring omission from Warhammer. A lot of their devs were supposed to be WoW players, so why didn't they see the danger of sick amounts of CC in PvP?
The basic flaw in philosophy is that devs think that all players WANT to do both PvE and PvP. Some do, but I think most want to focus on one or the other. I was content to PvE in WoW, but I moved to Warhammer to PvP. Warhammer was never going to match WoW's PvE, and they shouldn't have tried.
There was crafting but the RvR did not have player loot. The purpose of the rvr was stomp the other realms and also to take keeps, towers and artifacts. The side with the most keeps had access to a special dungeon and the artifacts gave bonuses to the owning realms. I must say it had one of the best communities I have ever encountered.
"The last place that the game had its problems right from the beginning was with its economy. Mythic was so extreme on getting rid of gold farmers that did not realize it made their economy pointless for the player. Jeff explained that commerce between o people can help build relationships between friends or guilds. With Warhammer's current economy there is very little need for gold. Right from the start this caused problems."
This paragraph is a bit muddled. I liked the hard stance they took against gold farmers. How would such a stance help to make the economy pointless? I was always checking the AH for gear upgrades. But I don't see how commerce can build relationships.
Highlights? Best game ever! I would forsake all other games for a DAoC2. Even if it was just the original game updated ported into another engine as i still jump into the original and play on shards here and there. I loved the crafting system but more for the end results than the road there. They should revamp the crafting so that there are a lot more gathering skills but definitely keep the alch/scer/general crafting. It allowed you to create a template that worked without having to spend your entire time in pve. Artifacts were pretty easy to get, but having to level them up sucked hard core. The crafting was pretty simple and given enough time, many of the crafting lines needed almost no money to craft. Salvaging was the craft that brought it all together. If you had a salvaging toon and knew where to hunt, you could turn your loot into serious cash and level almost to Legandary Crafter, (the highest) by buying just a few things here and there. I had a necro cleric combo that made 10 plat a day when I worked at it running orc camp.
Orc camp, that was another thing that truly set this game apart. It was one of the encounters like many in TOA that a full pick up group could fake their way through, but the effort it took for one person on two accounts to do? Enough so that few would ever have the ability to do it. The game really let you be as powerful as you wanted to be.
The three realms fighting it out really was one of the most important things in this game. Playing so many other games that only have two groups it becomes immediately appearent that three is the magic number. It totally added an element of chaos to the game so that no two fights were the same. If one realm got too powerful the other two realms would gang up on the leader to bring them to their knees. If you were in the middle of a battle with one realm another realm coming over the hill side could help you, kill you first or anything in between. Some people would race straight to 50, some never got there and both camps still had fun. I had 15 50's across 2 accounts and several slots were dedicated to a lower level rvr zone called Thidranki. The last year I played every day in the batlegrounds only. I think that might have been one of the downfalls with that game. There were far too many fun things to do. PVE'ers had tons of space to explore and RVR'ers had dozens of options on where and how to play. And that also ran people into the brick wall of thinking they could do just one or the other. You had to spend time in pve and rvr in order to be the best at both. I can't say that I had a problem with it but too many people convinced themselves that because of the amount of time you could spend having fun in one area that you didn't need to be in the other and the hard realization conflicted with their perceived reality and they couldn't hang...
This game ruled. Can I get a shout out for Midgard Percival? I am so back if they bring the original pre-ToA DAoC or a DAoC 2 just like it. I think it was my all-time favorite game.
Rejuvinate DAOC? Simple...get rid of buffbots or at least bring them under control. If they did that I would resub the second I read that announcement.
DAoC was the best pvp game I have ever played until they killed it with some of those expansions. I would play an updated game in a heartbeat. It also had crowd control issues though. You think they would have learned.
I know I would be. I loved the old DAOC and think an updated version of the classic game would be a game worth playing. It may not be ground breaking but still fun. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Mid zerg FTL!
DAoC was the greatest MMO ever. I loved it so much(until ToA, of course). Now, though, the controls are just archaic, and they let the mages and CC get out of control.
just in case anyone was interested they have now finished off merging all the servers into one super server called ywain.
You can now purchase ALL aspects of toa equipment with bountypoints, AND you can now trade those items over, they also got rid of /level so now everyone starts from 1 although i still hate the tutorial area.
you get 200% exp bonus in frontiers / battlegrounds. Most of the classes are pretty balanced except for warlocks that are still a roll your face on the keyboard to win class.
other than that rvr is still fun
DAoC 2 . I'm telling you, who ever studied marketing anywhere, would understand that there is indeed a void full of screaming need, want and unfulfilled desire that could be filled with a product with this name =)
What ever is gonna happen from Mythic related to old daoc, this united mega server with TOA and all the candy, or if they're rolling out Old Frontiers Classic server. Even with the new and very, very sweet looking engine, the days of 9000 polygons on screen and MySQL based engine aint going to roll anymore. Even with 4x 3ghz processors, dual graf cards - top end computer, you're still having inc lag.
While waiting for the realization slowly going into the investors mind, that DAoC2 would sell silvers, golds, platinas and mithrils both sides of all the seas, we got to hang around. My church of choise has been fre esha rds. Still active player base, specially on Uthgard, stripped from all the generally considered "problems". No buffbots, no doubleboxing, no bots, farmers, no addon material. NF_ and _OF. No fees.
Hang around there boys and girls. Make a lot of noise of your wish to have DAoC2, keep the spirit up, eventually someone with the ability to make the right call and big enough title to make it happen will read about it. Infact, I'd do it myself if I'd be given the funding.
Greets to go Mirage, The Chosen, Hibernian Dragonslayers and Golden Age teams in EU Prydwen. I miss you all.
They don't need a new engine for DAoC.
Both WAR and DAoC use different versions of the Gamebryo engine. The differences in version can make a big difference, as is evident when you look at screens of DAoC and screens of Warhammer. Texture processing capabilities, poly counts, resolution.. This engine is just fine as long as you implement it correctly.
And has everyone already forgotten the easter egg on the Chaos side in WAR? If you jump in to the portal at one of the starting Chaos zones, you're transported to one of the Albion starting zones just outside of Camelot (Can't even remember the name, it's been so long), only the ENTIRE TOWN is redone in the new version of the engine..... And it is GLORIOUS to look at.
Not only is updating DAoC with the WAR version of the Gamebryo engine a good idea that should be persued.. They've already shown it can be done. It's almost a foregone conclusion that they will at this point.
What they do with game mechanics (Balancing classes, abilities, Old/New Frontier hybrids - Does anyone NOT like the fact that walls are destructible in NF?) is the bigger question, and if it warrants a "2" moniker.
I do like the idea of coming back to Camelot though. If they do just do an upgrade and somehow revert some aspects of the game, I hope they keep all the zones, even if it's just for random PvE, because I'd love to see SI, ToA, and Catacombs areas done in the new engine.
I have not played DAoC but do you trust Mythic can deliver DAoC2?
See how badly they messed WAR which came after DAoC. With all their experience with DAoC they still managed to mess up badly with WAR.
What is worrying is that if the success of DAoC was down to 3 realms, (if being the operative word here) then Mythic either knew WAR would fail or think they could make it work with two. Either way they failed. Hence putting the success of DAoC 2 in serious doubt.
What was the lag like in DAoC and if it was not bad then why is it so bad in WAR?
Warhammer was already created product, there was not really even an option to make that into a 3 way fight. So its not compareable directly.
What ever arguments there might be against Mythics DEV teams cabability to produce a product that would please everyone expecting it, the fact remains ,they hold the copyright, and if its really a DAoC, its gonna be Mythic who produces it. I'd be damn glad if someone would rip the idea tho, and make it happen faster and if possible better =)
One has to understand also that DAoC has such a long history and thus so many stages on its past, it was PVE game, it became PVP game, it was new and different at the time, then it became a korean grind for a while, and then eventually it is a niche game for super elites. There was and always will be haters and lovers depending the time phase or aspect the enjoyed. Opinnions will be fiercely defended and attacked, castels will burn, people will die. End result DAoC2 is going to make many people cry, but many people rather cry in Midgard of Hibernia, than in Azeroth =)
Lag in daoc was and is never an issue if your iron was up to date. Infact, its the only game that almost promoted, or atleast was taken into some sort of consideration that you may want to be able to run several instances of it simultaneously. There has always been something in the engine that caused the legendary inc-lag. I would also add that even with the best configuration of any server structure, even with the latest dynamic load distribution methods is going to cause annoying lag on the end user when there is just too much action going on. In DAoC 50 people on screen was not a problem, 200 was already laggy, but still suistainable in relic raids.
They messed up with WAR for several reasons:
1) They were bound by the IP. Everything they did had to go through Games Workshop. EVERYTHING. With DAoC, they had complete freedom. It was their own IP, and they did what they wanted.
2) 3 realms DOES make a big difference. Tension between 2 sides is predictable. Throwing in a third makes things a lot more interesting. Had you played DAoC, you might have known that.
3) They were trying to compete with WoW and counting on the IP alone to make it happen. They dropped everything unique about DAoC to make it as close to WoW as possible, just with different skins. There are no destructable keeps in WAR, no third faction, classes have mirrors on either side only with minor differences, and the attempt at unique trades was a horrible failure (DAoC's weren't GREAT, but the major ones like weaponcrafting and the like were at least THERE).
4) They focused TOO much on PvE, not enough on RvR. Anyone who played DAoC can tell you, originally, PvE was bare minimum. People would spend days in Albion (Before Shourded Isles) waiting to get a tree group in Lyoness so they could finish to 50.. Then getting your class armor for RvR (And it was THE RvR armor to have in it's day) took at least 30 people, but you needed to do it to be competitive. Everyone helped because they all knew eventually they'd need it too.
5) Global cooldowns.. You didn't have that in DAoC. That makes a BIG difference in a PvP game.
6) Casters could be interrupted in DAoC.. That makes a BIG difference in a PvP game.
7) Did I mention destructible keeps? I know everyone loved old frontiers, and in a lot of ways, that's what the new keeps in WAR are like, with only certain points of entry, but I LOVED that I could take down almost any wall and go through it in NF. That was the one big selling point for NF in my opinion.
Collision Detection and Tome updating.
If they took those off one server, I think you would see a huge improvement in performance.
I don't know how much of an issue they were in DAoC, but there are a ton of buffs and debuffs and AoE effects in Warhammer also. The engine has to keep track of all of that stuff.
Interesting Interview, however why aren't they getting it?
The reasons stated as "mistakes" are not relevant.
1 - First 10 levels too easy in Warhammer.
That was really irelevant, I only did the quests and PQ's for the first 10 levels during beta. Come Launch I leveled all of my Toons the first 10 levels with PvP, and so did all of my guildmates.
People expected to play a PvP game set in the World of Warhammer.
I mean common, how can you make a PvE game with that IP, when all of its IP is based on PvP...Table top games of Warhammer are played between the people...All of the Fans of Warhammer play against eachother in countless battles...
Even the Live re-enactment fans all over the world..it is all about the PvP.
2 - "While guild leveling was an important element, players still had very little reason to play together unless they joined a PvP scenario"
Pardon? I mean, why else would people come together if it is not for PvP activities relating to the Realm? I do not think anyone needs a game where guilds have to make alliances to defeat the AI...because that game already exists and it is called WoW raiding.
Guilds did not have reason to play together because there was not enough emphasis to Realm PvP.
3 - Mail System...
I agree it was frustrating. Specially since the game's design called for it to be used very extensivelly all these tons of drops of items all over the place with limited storage space. Then again, why so much emphasis on collection of Items?
I came back to WAR at the begining of this last summer I could not play more than a month, while some things have improved, the lastest Expansion just killed it for me, they added a bunch of PVE content and a whole new host of Collectible Items from PVE..it was disgusting for me...
I can not understand why warriors of Warhammer have to farm for collectibles? I have been playing many games of Games Workshop for year on the table top, including Warhammer fantasy, Space Marines, Gothic etc...and I never felt the Warhammer Universe in WAR...
4- Economy
I could not disagree more here, if there was one thing that was done really good it was the economy, it is good that come to level 20 people did not have to go RMT gold to buy a Mount, and it is good that money was not a big focus. This is suposed to be Warhammer...not Monopoly, the goal is to fight and defeat your enemies not accumulate wealth.
----
All in all...
I simply think that WAR went wrong in the implementation. Instead of making a game that was really focused on PvP within the cruel harsh and very dangerous world of Warhammer, they made a game more for the WoW crowd...I think Mythic's mistake was to try and capitalise on the Warhammer IP by offering a WoW type game, and that is why it did not work.
----
That being said, and while the prospect of a DAoC2 seems very exciting I am worried that same mistake maybe made in the process...
If you want to beat WoW, you have to come up with something radically different than it, that is very thoughtfully prepared to be different and please at the same time.
IMHO
I'd love to see a DAOC 2, just not sure EA/Mythic could deliver a good game. I'd feel better if Mythic was sold off to a firm that gave them a little more autonomy.
If they make DAoC 2 two things i would like to see deal with crafting.
I loved UO open skills system, most of the time i just enjoyed herding the sheep and taking their wool to sell or make stuff from. No other MMO has done that to the extent of UO.
Some of us Enjoy the occasional PvP/RvR but my heart will still always seek out the more peacefull things in games. I use the game to socialize herding, farming, crafting just filled the time while i would talk with my friends.
I hope some element like this is implemented.
How about taking Warhammer's cultivation farther and turn it into a sort of Harvest Moon minigame? Where you have your own field, and grow things on a larger and more varied scale?
How about taking Warhammer's cultivation farther and turn it into a sort of Harvest Moon minigame? Where you have your own field, and grow things on a larger and more varied scale?
UO was and still is the best MMOG I ever played. It is true that UO had many Interesting things, that were not tied to Competition directly like every single system in almost all MMO's is today.
And that is what gave UO its inner beauty that generated much passion to its community.
Cultivation in Warhammer is the one I liked most honestly, expanding on the same system and fleshing it out in to the actual world the player exists in is a very interesting idea!
I just want to point out with these limited quotes of your writing : hey, really fu c king scientific and objective views here! I think this, I disagree with that, and then generalize that you are "the people", Mythic fucked up and their professionals designers cant even identify problems in a product they made. Its your personal view and you've got the right for it, but seriously should rethink these "I wasn't pleased" generalizations.
"That being said, I'm worried that the same mistake of not pleasing me may be made again"... =)))
Again the casual reference of "beating WoW", but this time together with suggestion to be radically different (wich game in topic already is). Interesting, because games that aren't similar, aren't competing against each other, the target customer / market is not the same.
I agree. I actually liked Apothecary + Cultivation more than I liked Alchemy + Herbalism in WoW. Fleshing it out even more would make it even more fun.
3 Faction says it all.
yesterday in Aion i was in Et.... on my 23 Chanter doing quest and gather , i got jumped of a mage and gladiater,
i was lucky there was a lvl 20 cleric close at me and we managed to kill both asmo...
later there was great rvr with around 15 from both side
this remind me of still the greates game i have played Daoc and what there is missing in Aion the 3. faction
i ofc vote for Daoc 2 and i want this name for it !!!!!
i can wait for it , dont care if it takes 2 year
there is only 1 game out right now there can come alittle close to Daoc = Aion and i hope i can play it to i see no.2 from mystic
I don't want DAOC 2. There's no need to wait that long and by then blizzard new mmo will probably be out and even less people will care about DAOC 2.
You have a limited window now in that the next WoW expansion is about a year away, WAR is losing numbers and people want a good pvp experience that isn't a boring korean grind fest.
You have the technology, NOW, to release Origins. Do it. If you have any tweaks for the engine you want to release, add them but don't take more then a month to do so. I can force AA and AF on in original DAOC engine and it'll be pretty enough for a while, giving you a chance to work on the engine.
Release origins now before you miss your mark!
You make a good point there BJ.
Hehe Blizzard certainly has its eyes all over the place, I saw how they implemented most of the greatest features WAR had in to WoW within less than a year.
I don't know if a DAoC2 would cut it. If you did a LOT of advertising and revamped original DAoC. I will come back in a heart beat! I love DAoC. I can't play a MMO anymore without comparing PvP to DAoC. It was just AMAZING how they did it.
BRING IT BACK! I WANT TO PLAY MY BERSERKER... MY NECRO... MY BARD... MY BONEDANCER... MY... okay you get the point I have a lot of chars....
hiring for daoc, give me a break thats a lie
took to long to put the server merger into action, like they're gonna gain more then a few thousand at the very most on a revamp or w/e
i LOVE daoc, but its time to move on
It's a shame that they dont even have a clue as to why WAR didnt work. While I want a DAoC 2 more than anything else Im not sure I want these folks making it.
Whether it was DAOC2 or a heavily upgraded DAOC1, I know that myself and quite a few of my gaming buddies would be back paying for the game in a minute
Problem with revamping DAOC would be that it'd be the same old content, and would thus never have that new game feel that really gets a new game rolling. Not enough people would jump back into it all at once. Might bring a steady trickle returning players for a little while though.
The problem with a DAOC2 is just how badly they messed up with WAR. Makes me doubt that they have any idea what made the original DAOC so great. But if they were to do it, I think they should stick very close to the original gameplay, all the elements that came together to make it what it was - including everything people whined about, because while people whined about different things, that they whined so much was probably a great sign in itself. You'll never get perfect balance, but you can sure see how passionate people can get about it.
but I digress - just meant to say, same classic pre-TOA gameplay, but all new content, to spark fully renewed interest.
Hopefully they'll go for it, and we'll be seeing it in time for xmas, 2018.
If they really try I believe they could bring back a lot of their old playerbase. Many of us were simply discouraged that they weren't working on DAOC and spending all their time on WAR. I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to come back if they bothered putting some effort in to DAOC again.
Honestly I'm planning to go back to DAOC and check it out again just to see what's changed in the last year. If they plan to continue to improve upon the game I'll stay if not I really don't know what MMO I'll be playing.
I can still remember hunting down my first Hibby kill, one of the best moments in gaming ive ever had. My heart was thumpin! I would be back to a sequel in true old hardcore fashion in a blink.
I'm still hopeful something new with DAOC will happen soon. Giving the game a new graphics engine would be great, basically relaunch it with the emphasis on PVP. Even a DAOC 2 would be very exciting. WAR just didn't do Mythic any justice, you need RvRvR to make battles interesting, as seen in DAOC and Planetside. Just about to reactivate my 10 day free trial on my old DAOC account, can't wait to see the new populations in RVR!
I dunno,,, his 3 reasons would be included to my own reasons... I believe WAR failed because of their original idea failed.. Also, I'm sure they listened to the 20 or so super fanboys who wanted the game to be exactly what they pictured, which turned out to be crap for everyone else..
I played WAR until I was level 25 before realizing how dull, repetitive, and bland the game really was.. There were absolutely no reason to explore the game and do quests. All you needed to do was hit every PQ along your travels for the best loot while waiting in Queue for scenerio's which also yielded exp and loot. That's all you had to do to level. Doing the early city dungeons was pointless and to difficult for those lame greeny rewards.
Now, I liked the PQ's and Scenerio's, but WAR needed to have dungeons similar to what EQ, EQ2, and WoW has for their PvE content. Give the player the option of doing what he wants and level the way he wants, and explore the way he wants..
Mythic "forced" the player to do PQ's and Scenerio's to level. We all knew doing mindless/pointless quests and unrewarding dungeons was a waste of time... And whoever gave them that ridiculous idea should never work on MMORPG's. These people need to stick to structured games and not games that the player wants to feel as if its a real living breathing fantasy world.. WAR was a rollercoaster ride. You get on a rollercoaster and go round and round and its fun the first couple times but eventually that ride gets boring and repetitve rather quickly..
That's the mistake Mythic made with WAR..
Personally, I'd love to see DAOC 2.. It would surely bring most of us true MMORPG vets out from hiding or lurking these forums in search for something great.. Mythic should just scrape WAR and work on giving us DAOC 2.. Even respected developers admitted their mistakes with WAR.. I've been around MMO's for a long time, since UO and the original EQ.. I can honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that once a mmo game leaves a bad taste in the players mouth, there's virtually 0% chance that game could ever be resurrected from the dead vapor it's creator created... Even with a new facelift or an expansion promising the world to the players won't save it. Yea, you may get 5-10 thousand people interested, but eventually either those people will leave or the 10k fanboys currently playing will not like the changes and leave which basically left you breaking even with subs and losing money from all the manpower it took to create the worthless expansion..
Personally, I'm no developer but even I'm smart enough to understand how the MMO Genre operates since I've been part of that genre for 11 years.. It will cost more money keeping that useless game and many others like it in operation, rather than Mythic admitting they made a mistake and decide to pull the plug to focus all their manpower on giving what the MMORPG genre what they truly want,,,, a legendary epic glorious new and fresh MMO Gaming experience with DAOC 2.. :) The 10k-20k people currently playing WAR now may not like that idea, but who cares what a few thousand people think when there's millions of people who would give their left,,,,, ummm genital for DAOC 2 to be announced and eventually become a reality.. I can guarandarntee it...
QFT
on a side note, Midgard will crush the tree-hugging Hibbies and the self-righteous Albs! LONG LIVE MIDGARD
What I'd give for a DAoC II...
Make Gna Faste the hub of the world and I'm in. :) I'm sure DAoC II will never happen but man just the thought of it makes me excited.
I dont think that purple shirt [ Mod Edit ] ever played war... lets all hope they make daoc 2 the way daoc was before it blew & leave it like that. Sometimes adding expansions ruins something amazing... Learn from your mistakes and your peers... (UO, Starwars)
DAoC 2 would be epic and maybe we will see it. Howeverr I am not sure this new Mythic would pull it off. DAoC was a shot in the dark. The hype alone would choke it to death.
Dark Age Of Camlot 2 - Or major updates! But i think dark age of camelot 2 is a must.
That would be the greatest news in the world of computers for me.
And i swear, that if i ever win alot of money. I will donate, or invest in Dark Age of Camelot without hesitation. And not in the interest of gaining money. But as an investment to something that lies Very close to my heart.
I would have hopes for a DAoC 2, but I also have serious concerns about the current Mythic's ability to succeed.
Just creating a sequel which lives up to an original success is difficult to begin with add in proper updates to current customer expectations and it becomes even more difficult.
Then there is EA...yeah the situation with EA is not conducive to creating a game like DAoC. The old Mythic was about creating a good game which will sell to make a profit. EA is about making an IP something which will profit quickly but without concern about maintaining it long term. While this makes for a successful company and does not exclude the possibility of creating a good MMO it rarely breeds creative thinking as "outside the box" is not rewarded.
Has there been any further news about Mythic considering a DAOC reboot?
This is exactly why DAoC will never have the longevity of EQ, UO, or even AC for that matter. Mythic itself didn't know what kind of game DAoC was and they continued to make a lot of miscalculated steps.
Was it a pve game with rvr? Was it a rvr game with pve? WTH was it? Mythic couldn't find a way to make RvR and PvE better tied together as both were considered separate but "equal". Darkness Falls was close as it added a fun dungeon with a rvr twist (probably one of the best content updates ever for the game and that happened in its first year?). The RVR game has stagnated for years while they continued to fluff up the pve content. If Mythic was smart - it would have produced paid pve expansions while offering free rvr expansions to keep both pieces of content fresh and new.
A sequel to DAOC would be a serious reason for me to avoid dieing... Even thinking about it makes me feel good. DAOC was simply better than life itself for me...
What a crying shame that this IP has been swept under the rug of forgetfullness. I really hope somewhere, someday, someone with a lot of currency can repurchase the imagination necessary for Mr. Hickman to care about a DAoC graphics revamp or even more splendid - DAoC 2. Now, hmm what would I name it? Let's see, my undergrad in Medieval and Ancient History has influenced me a bit:
Golden Age of Camelot
Dark Age of Camelot - The Medieval Era
or - how about the time of Charlemagne? Unite Hibernia and Albion, allow for the Norse to continue to be a threat (they make such great raiders) and bring in the Moors or such - and yes still keep the saracen race for Alb lol.
Every friend I have that has rotted through EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, DDO, WoW, etc., etc., has wished that DAoC would really again be invested in - with lessons learned from the mistakes of Failhammer and Trials of Atlantis.
Rome Total War series has taught us that we love epical battles as a player base. DAoC taught the mmorpg world that 3 realms work (to such an extent that apparently no one has the imagination to follow suit and is still trapped in the 2 faction or FFA model). Mix Rome Total War and DAoC...upgrade the snot out of the graphics - etc...give us that three realm gem back that we all want so badly.
Mythic taught an intelligent but lethargic audience (the gaming world) that battles happen. Secondly, the company taught us that unlike EQ pvp zones and mmorpgs with open pvp where npcs die non stop and players are unable to build defenses - that walls and castles exist as well. WoW devs ignore the fact that after the endless attacks on Goldshire (Moonguard server for example) that walls would be in place - undead locks would no longer be able to climb on top of the Inn...and so forth without massive retaliation.
In short, battles were brought to as close to epic portions as possible with an IP of the time. Granted, we need to see mounted cavalry, organized rows of pikemen, swordsmen, and archers facing each other in the field of battle - SADLY WE ARE VERY FAR FROM THIS simulation of actual medieval and ancient world warfare.
DAoC however, did give us three completely independent realms that could not talk to one another and did not cross over onto one another's PVE territory. Battles were quick and unforgiving for the untrained but lengthy and complex for those who had enough time invested in realm defense to gather the skills to be called, "heroes of the realm."
DAoC allows players to have a sense of purpose in that we have good reason to defend relics (castles that contain them), and the sense of US vs THEM always existed in Dark Age of Camelot - something not ONE FLIPPEN mmorpg can emulate or even cares about.
Most mmorpgs that have organized siege, say Age of Conan, for example, have the same races and classes killing one another. The only difference between one "army" or realistically speaking, one guild, is the red name over their heads. Northmen kill Northmen, priests of the god Mitra kill their own, and necromancers can have all pets out and run through Cimmeria without npcs even caring - something that never existed in the books.
Dark Age, unlike Conan and other more less developed mmorpg titles, had visibly different cultures on the field of battle. You knew you were different, in title of class, style and resist type of your culture's armor, the type of spells, etc. You really felt unique to your realm - and each realm was truly unique to her own.
In short, Dark Age of Camelot was very special to many of us who really wanted a mythological feel to what the era of magic, vikings, and knights just might have been had the laws of physics been a little different in the 8th century.
Even moreso was the brilliance of the third realm.. This point here is especially lost on most players who have never experienced an mmorpg that didnt reward battle time with gear and the thought of a third realm tearing it up from behind them meant the field of battle would be unpredictable (opposite of WoW eh?) and complicated. Hate that stalemate in Warhammer Online that never ends? TIred of seeing one faction on a server of a title of your choice being so much larger than the other that pvp is pointless or depressing? Dark Age of Camelot fixed this issue in 2001 with one of the best mmorpg launches to date. Three realms is the magic tie breaker - wth don't mmorpgs even consider this?
In short, in DAoC we got to be heroes - a million expansions wouldn't matter - the prettiest sword and armor would only be useful in the hands of the skilled battle hardened players that were rewarded with actual time spent on a battlefield - just the same had they been in real life conflicts.
We got to be heroes and the battles we fought for our realms made a measurable difference from the lowest level player in a tiny pve valley to the hardened veteran assisting in a seige warfare event - what mmorpg does this?