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Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Forum » General Discussion » Look, programmers don't work for free

9 posts found
  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1939

Not all change is good.

 
OP  7/21/14 11:37:59 AM#1

Don't you people understand, that programmers, just like the rest of us, have bills to pay?  So what if they used the funding for salaried work.  CLUE IN TIME!  That's what it's for.

Jeez....

(Narrusseldon, back me up here.)

  Betaguy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2663

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

7/21/14 11:47:29 AM#2
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Don't you people understand, that programmers, just like the rest of us, have bills to pay?  So what if they used the funding for salaried work.  CLUE IN TIME!  That's what it's for.

Jeez....

(Narrusseldon, back me up here.)

 

Terrible excuse, kick starter is less than 2 years old and is purely Internet begging. Large game developers and small indie companies have survived for the last 30 years without, no need for it now imo. Kick starter has more vapor ware than actual games being released.

  TankYou88

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/14
Posts: 336

7/21/14 11:49:26 AM#3
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Don't you people understand, that programmers, just like the rest of us, have bills to pay?  So what if they used the funding for salaried work.  CLUE IN TIME!  That's what it's for.

Jeez....

(Narrusseldon, back me up here.)

 

Terrible excuse, kick starter is less than 2 years old and is purely Internet begging. Large game developers and small indie companies have survived for the last 30 years without, no need for it now imo. Kick starter has more vapor ware than actual games being released.

Do you have proof of that? Theres over 100 games produced on steam alone.

  Aeonblades

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2125

7/21/14 11:54:06 AM#4

You'd be better off not asking for help from narius, that guy hates MMO's! (it's a joke, no panty bunching please :p)

 

I do agree, no one is going to work for free. I don't think Brad or anyone else has deserved all the hate flung at them, I just think he's not cut out for a position that manages large amounts of funding. Any project he has needs to be led by more than just him from now on, just to be cautious, not because he's a bad person, so much as he just mismanages his funding.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

7/21/14 11:55:18 AM#5
Originally posted by TankYou88
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Don't you people understand, that programmers, just like the rest of us, have bills to pay?  So what if they used the funding for salaried work.  CLUE IN TIME!  That's what it's for.

Jeez....

(Narrusseldon, back me up here.)

 

Terrible excuse, kick starter is less than 2 years old and is purely Internet begging. Large game developers and small indie companies have survived for the last 30 years without, no need for it now imo. Kick starter has more vapor ware than actual games being released.

Do you have proof of that? Theres over 100 games produced on steam alone.

We don't need proof... all one needs to do is say it on the internet and it becomes truth.  Say it enough it becomes a Wiki page.  Once it becomes a Wiki page... it becomes proof.

  Dakeru

Elite Member

Joined: 9/21/09
Posts: 1447

7/21/14 12:03:27 PM#6

I agree, devs don't work for free.

That's why the first dev team abandoned the project when Brad stole the money and refused to pay them.

  User Deleted
7/21/14 12:04:36 PM#7
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Don't you people understand, that programmers, just like the rest of us, have bills to pay?  So what if they used the funding for salaried work.  CLUE IN TIME!  That's what it's for.

Jeez....

(Narrusseldon, back me up here.)

No- "Programmers" do not (by job description) but business/company owners ALL do.

My Cousin "worked for free" for years while starting his construction business. Most Mcdonalds owners "work for free" for 2-5 years (last I heard) and have to put up over 1 Million of their own money merely for the franchise  (this does not include the building lease, equipment. and everything else- That is JUST for the right to use the Mcdonalds name)

When you are the one standing to make 100% of the profit - You sacrifice to get there. A "Programmer" punching a clock SHOULD get an hourly fee or salary since he does not own the Company. An owner generally goes heavily in debt, works for free and IF he succeeds, he reaps all the benefits.

Every business ownerI know (And I know several) "work for free" or for very low pay while building their business. During that time any moneies collected go to purchase the things needed to run the business, pay the workers and get the company off the ground.

In the case of my Cousin (he now owns a major construction/excavation firm with over 20 trucks, excavating equipment and 3 locations) every penny he "made" (after paying for fees and employee paychecks) went into paying off equipment and assets he now owns and thus gave a positive equity and raised his net worth but was never "payment to himself)- He worked for over 3 years without a paycheck and then began paying himself the same as an entry level worker.

 

Now? He only shows up to bid jobs and enjoys the fruits of his labor- Probably works less than 20 hours a week, employs over 50 and makes a huge paycheck...

 

-Its the way things generally work.

 

But when people are giving you money to fund the company that YOU will profit off of- Hard work and logic goes out the window.

 

EDIT- A fairly funny example (but true) I didnt even think of until now.

Last Summer my Son wanted to start a "Lawn Care" business. I purchased for him a used riding mower (we lie in the Country and this was needed) a used push mower and some various supplies... This was negative profit as I expected to be paid back.

He "hired" some of his friends, got some lawns lined up and started working.

His first obligation was to pay back the money he owed so then HE would have full ownership of the equipment I purchased- We had a weekly payment agreement worked out.

His friends got paid- My Son "Worked for free" for over a month a half while paying for the things he needed to run his business- This Summer he is doing really well as everything he makes he can keep (beyond what he has to pay for his friends to help him out)

Had my Son started getting jobs and decided "I am working hard and I deserve to be paid" while owing me money- I would have done a pretty lousy job with him...

-Its kind of a dumb example here, but it really does fit... You stand to make all the reward, you take the risk and responsibility.

  PioneerStew

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/11
Posts: 899

7/21/14 12:08:38 PM#8

Kickstarter just feels like the emporer's new clothes to me.  

You purchase the promise of a product (usually at a hugely inflated price) and as a bonus you may get some fluff which has yet to be coded.  It is sold under the guise of some sort of exclusive club you join where you are backing your chosen game.  it conveniently ignores the fact that your money is as much at risk as it would be with any other investment, only that this is not an investment and you see none of the rewards.    

I think I preferred the way things worked prior to kickstarter: If a startup company wants my money I want a share of their future profit.  I am not prepared to buy the promise of a product that may or may not materialise in 2 years time; in any other walk of life doing this would be considered crazy.         

 

 

  User Deleted
7/21/14 12:56:42 PM#9

-As this is a topic I find interesting, I did a quick google search to look for stats-

While I couldnt find them quickly enough (and it isnt important enough to spend more time on this- Since most people already realize this fact) here isan article from CNBC http://www.cnbc.com/id/47851944 its entitled "Business Owners say ALL WORK AND NO PAY is PART OF THE JOB"

 

According to this article 23% of business owners have gone for 1 year without pay since the economic downturn... Not exactly the stats I wanted (Start-ups is what I wanted- It would be far more than 23%) it does shed some light.

“I think it’s very common, says Mitch Free, CEO of MFG.com, an online marketplace for manufacturers. “When I started MFG.com, I paid myself half what I was making previously as an employee for a major corporation. There were numerous times I couldn't even pay myself that.”

Cristi Cristich, had a similar experience. “Although it has been a quite a few years since I have totally missed a paycheck, during my first 10 years in business it was a pretty common occurrence,” says the CEO and founder ofCristek Interconnects, who let us in on how she used credit cards to make payroll.

“Most of the first year of Cristek I couldn’t take a salary," says Cristich, "so while paying employees and creditors out of the cash flow, I kept myself afloat by the credit card shell game. In 1985 I paid my Am Ex Green card off — 90 days past due — by taking an advance on a new Platinum Card credit line they had mailed me. That was back in the days when the computers did not all talk to each other in real time on credit.”

Joseph Dutra, CEO and founder of Kimmie Candy Company says he is still not on the payroll. “I’ll have to talk to the boss about that,” he jokes.

Dutra explains that when he launched the business 10 years ago, it was slow to grow, and some staff did wait for paychecks. He borrowed money from friends and family while he nurtured another venture. That business, an agricultural consulting firm called Westec, has thrived and pays him a salary that allows him to forgo one from Kimmie Candy.

 

-Anyone making a startup and taking 45K for their "Salary" of a few months (while making no profit) is beyond insane- Regardless of if he is a programmer. plumber or cafe owner... These people featured on the article were borrowing money to make payroll, living on credit, etc... It is very common.

$45 K for a company that has made nothing to sell and has nothing to show is imho a real lack of integrity and a borderline scam.