Asheron's Call 2 Forum » General Discussion » AC2/AC cannibalized ??

I have to give the disclaimer that I know nothing of AC or AC2, but seeing as how AC2 is being unplugged I’ve been interested in the circumstances surrounding the events leading up to this point.

I see that AC1 was popular and remains so today… My question is: If AC1 was so popular, why release a AC2?

More importantly: Why release AC2 without shutting down AC1?

In my mind, have the two games live at the same time is asking for trouble. AC2 will be competing with AC1 and the company will eventually cannibalize its subscriptions. Why wasn’t AC1 closed down after AC2 hit live? Was this the biggest factor that lead to AC2 shutting down while AC1 still forges ahead?

….or am I way off base?

AC1 isn't really that "strong" at least compared to its competitor EQ1. Microsoft (the original publisher) and I'm sure Turbine wanted to match EQ's success. There was no way it was going to happen with AC1 since even 3 years ago it was still considered old and ugly. Also it had a bad reputation for macroing and cheating, which at the time was shocking to a lot of people. I frequently read comments from outside players about it back then. Now and days people realize cheating and macroing are a bit of a problem in every game.

Also AC1 and AC2 were not similar at all. Turbine and Microsoft tried to attract a more casual gamer with AC2. AC1 is pretty hardcore, it's a lot of leveling and complex. AC2 on the other hand, at least initially had little leveling and was a lot simpler compared to AC1. If you assume they were going to cannablize each other you are assuming people mainly play for the franchise: the characters, and story. Because other than that they were entirely different games.

It did cannibalize new players though. If a prospective new player walks into a store and sees AC1 and AC2 on the shelf next to each other, they are going to pick up the newest, AC2, the vast majority of the time. Still, like I said new players weren't really coming to AC1 to begin with. AC1 has steadily been losing subscribers for years. The latest expansion did not help.

The biggest mistake was releasing AC2 unfinished. There was no reason to push it out so soon. Even 2 years after the launch AC2 was still one of the best looking MMO's out. They could have at least waited another year to release. AC2 was not bad at all this last year or so. They worked on the game a lot. However, similar to Horizons, and SoR, once people are initially disappointed, there's no way to really gain a ton of new subscribers, no matter how much the game improves. The stigma of always being an old game with a bad launch sticks around.

[quote]

Originally posted by dolanious
[b]I have to give the disclaimer that I know nothing of AC or AC2, but seeing as how AC2 is being unplugged I’ve been interested in the circumstances surrounding the events leading up to this point.

I see that AC1 was popular and remains so today… My question is: If AC1 was so popular, why release a AC2? [/b]

[/quote]

AC1 was never popular. This had nothing to do with whether it was good or bad.... it had everything to do with very, very, pooooor advertising. AC1 has ONLY had 1 free trial offer in its entire history! And it's been out as long as EQ1 ! AC1 is a very well made game. It has tons, and tons, of NICE features. The CEO of Turbine needs to get fired sooo badly lol.

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More importantly: Why release AC2 without shutting down AC1?

---

I can understand why you ask this. The thing with mmorpgs, is... just because there is a "2" in the name, does not mean its the same game as the first one. obviously graphics will be different. But also with new technology, far more NEW and DIFFERENT features can be put into the new game. Just like a 2005 Cadillac can be/is vastly different from a 2000 Cadillac. Same name, technically its a sequel, but it has tons of features that are different, better, etc....

Heck, sometimes the ONLY thing in common is just the name. The "sequel" could be a 100% different game.
Now, why not shut down the old game? Believe it or not, there are always fans of old games. It might have been their first game, and they feel sentimental about it. Sometimes the old game is as good, and better than the new game = the old game has features other players prefer.
In the end though, as long as the old game makes $$$$, and the new game also makes $$$$, the investors, the CEO, could care less what the exact reasons are why players still play the old game, and the new game.

[quote]
In my mind, have the two games live at the same time is asking for trouble. AC2 will be competing with AC1 and the company will eventually cannibalize its subscriptions. Why wasn’t AC1 closed down after AC2 hit live? Was this the biggest factor that lead to AC2 shutting down while AC1 still forges ahead?

….or am I way off base?
[/b] [/quote]

ONLY if AC2 were an exact copy of AC1, except for better graphics .... would it be in danger of cannibalizing AC1.
- AC1 is a very hardcore PvE game. (With some hardcore PvP servers). Death brutally stings in AC1.
- AC1 developed a core following. When it came out, there were only 2 other major mmorpgs! And only 1 other NEW mmorpg! For a looong time EQ1 and AC1 were the ONLY new mmorpgs out. (Lineage 1 is another story.) Just like your first kiss, your first car, you never forget it. Same with your first mmorpg!

- AC2 went in a different direction than AC1, it aimed at more casual players. It was a very, very, softcore PvE game. Easy to level up, death did not sting as hard as in AC1. The gameworld looked different. There were DIFFERENT features.

and... add the facts that...
- AC2 FAILED mostly due to being 75% UNFINNISHED at release. Players discovered the end game was not even put in!
-It was also a very buggy game at release.
You have heard of the saying "First Impressions are everything"? It is true! AC2 never recovered from its messy release.
-Many horrible exploits players discovered were never re-set. meaning after the game DEVs discovered them, and took them out - they NEVER took away the gains players got from taking advantage of the exploits. Taking advantage of exploits is the same as hacking the game. Except an exploit is a "random hack". Exploits are game bugs that work to your BENIFIT, allowing you to play the game in a way NOT intended, that gives you an unnatural edge.

-AC2 was doomed before it released. It had the worse run beta test ever in mmorpg history. Beta testers were censered from posting what they found, and their suggestions. There wasn't even an official person at Turbine to READ what the beta testers found! It wasn't until the last week of beta, that a person was hired to be a liasion between the beta testers and the game DEVs.

- Last, the major features that would have made AC2 DIFFERENT from ALL OTHER mmorpgs, were either never put in, or held back. Making for less of a reason to check out AC2. They advertised in every press release, magazine interview - how NPCs would destroy towns, and players would be able to re-build them, then defend them vs NPCs trying to destroy them again. No other mmorpg had this feature, and it would have made AC2 stand out, and be veeery intresting. Never put in, even while their ads said it was in the game LOL!

4-6 months after release 50% of all players left. At release AC2 had 50k players. After 1 year it wiltered down to 6k players. Some servers never peaked higher than 300 people online at the same time at peak time.

Will future game DEVs LEARN from the AC2 mess? Time will tell.....

well, the basis for the problem stemmed from a HUGE problem.

turbine did not have control over AC2. they didn't have control over AC either but they had more control since it was a brand new genre.

see, Microsoft.. tht wonderful little company it is, owned AC/AC2 even though tuirbine made it. well someone at microsoft decided that AC2 was done when they entered beta stage.  they saw that it was playable and said, awesome, ship it!

well turbine said, no it's not done we have to beta test it. M$ had no idea what a beta test was, gave them like 2 months and made turbine release the game. the beta had enough problems as it was because the game shared races and mobs and lore of AC but was nothing like the original game. they went away from a skill based game to a cookie cutter game. then with the bugs, it flopped in beta. all the AC1 players were saying how bad it sucked. and since very few people gotinto beta that did not play AC there wasn't much out there other than, this game sucks.

so what did AC2 accomplish for mmorpgs? a lot actually.

1. NEVER rush a game out the door. it flops if you do. make sure it's done.

2. don't do a sequal where you completely change the game mechanics.(i.e. if you have a skill system set up in the first game you should keep a simila skill system in place, if you have a race/class system set up, keep it close to the original)

3. NEVER let someone else own your mmorpg. if your the company making the game, make sure you have a say in whether or not the game is ready for release.

and to put another note on it.. EQ2 isn't doing so hot either. sequals for mmorpgss have ahard time succeeding because of the fact people don't want to leave the original that thy put so much time and efort into.

if they really wanted a game like AC2 or EQ2 to be REALLY popular they would have to have done something like character transfers to the new game. otherwise, people will keep playing what they have already put time into rather than start all over.

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Originally posted by sarnsereg
well, the basis for the problem stemmed from a HUGE problem.
  
and to put another note on it.. EQ2 isn't doing so hot either. sequals for mmorpgss have ahard time succeeding because of the fact people don't want to leave the original that thy put so much time and efort into.
 
if they really wanted a game like AC2 or EQ2 to be REALLY popular they would have to have done something like character transfers to the new game. otherwise, people will keep playing what they have already put time into rather than start all over.

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I pretty much agree with all your points about AC2.

As for EQ2? It is a bona fid success. It is doing very, very, HOT! It has a solid 200k accounts. A modern mmorpg needs a minimum of 50k accounts to have a chance in heaven or hell of re-couping its investment money. Needs 100k accounts to be considered a HIT mmorpg. EQ2 has twice the number of accounts to be considered a hit mmorpg.

 I mostly agree with what is said. One exception was leveling was very fast until about level 30.

The game should not have been released when it was and that is Microsoft's fault. It was at least a year away from getting all the major bugs out. Also when the game was released, many of the pc's by users didn't have the capacity to handle the video and resources the game demanded.

AC2 wasn't very easy at higher levels and grouping was necessary to get anywhere. There were also some innovative ideas. An example was a dungeon with limited gravity that players had to adjust to.

About the last couple years of the game, it was far more stable and actually a quality game. Unfortunately the writing was on the wall and AC2 could never recover from its disastrous start. The start of WoW sped up the inevitable downfall of the game because population levels dropped by over half of the small amount who still played. The last chance to save AC2 was the expansion pack released last summer. It had no measurable affect on the game and a couple months after the expansion released, Turbine announced the closing of AC2.

Hopefully Turbine has more success with Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online.

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Originally posted by xplororor

 

 

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Originally posted by dolanious
I have to give the disclaimer that I know nothing of AC or AC2, but seeing as how AC2 is being unplugged I’ve been interested in the circumstances surrounding the events leading up to this point.
I see that AC1 was popular and remains so today… My question is: If AC1 was so popular, why release a AC2?

---

AC1 was never popular. This had nothing to do with whether it was good or bad.... it had everything to do with very, very, pooooor advertising. AC1 has ONLY had 1 free trial offer in its entire history! And it's been out as long as EQ1 ! AC1 is a very well made game. It has tons, and tons, of NICE features. The CEO of Turbine needs to get fired sooo badly lol.

---

AC1 capped out at 120k subscribers, whereas AC2 capped out at 50k subscribers. It was vastly more popular than many MMORPGs, including The Matrix Online, Auto Assault, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Shadowbane, Earth and Beyond, and Anarchy Online, topping the best of those by about 60,000 subcriptions.

source: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html 

---

- AC1 is a very hardcore PvE game. (With some hardcore PvP servers). Death brutally stings in AC1.

---

Death didn't hurt in AC1. If you knew how item drops on death worked, you could get away with dropping nothing. AC1 wasn't hardcore at all. If anything, World of Warcraft and Everquest are hardcore because of the immense time investment required.

---

- AC1 developed a core following. When it came out, there were only 2 other major mmorpgs! And only 1 other NEW mmorpg! For a looong time EQ1 and AC1 were the ONLY new mmorpgs out. (Lineage 1 is another story.) Just like your first kiss, your first car, you never forget it. Same with your first mmorpg!

---

While you're probably right about that partially, I think the great game mechanics played a massive role in the nostalgia for the game. The freeform character creation system, the live team bringing the story to the players in realtime (bael'zharon raiding cities and killing people!), the physics that made it like a combination of an FPS and an RPG where you could actually dodge spells and arrows, the ability to have a unique character due to the randomly generated armor and weapons and the skill system (hell even jump and run were skills, and raising them would raise your jump height and run skill), the incredibly well thought out quests that were repeatable because they were designed so well that focused on exploring and making your way through a challenging dungeon rather than killing 10 rabbits and turning in their fur to an npc, and the fact that level played very little part in the game early on. Once you got to level 30 you were set for PvP, you could take on level 50s if you were good enough, you could do all the same quests as a level 40, or a level 10, and there were plenty of other things that mad eit great as well (allegiance system where you swore allegiance to someone and they'd gain a portion of your earned XP, giving higher level players a reason to help lower level ones, and preventing every newbie on the pvp server from being instakilled).

---

- Last, the major features that would have made AC2 DIFFERENT from ALL OTHER mmorpgs, were either never put in, or held back. Making for less of a reason to check out AC2. They advertised in every press release, magazine interview - how NPCs would destroy towns, and players would be able to re-build them, then defend them vs NPCs trying to destroy them again. No other mmorpg had this feature, and it would have made AC2 stand out, and be veeery intresting. Never put in, even while their ads said it was in the game LOL!

---

This is one of the reasons I bought AC2. :(
 

Originally posted by Scottc

 

AC1 capped out at 120k subscribers, whereas AC2 capped out at 50k subscribers. It was vastly more popular than many MMORPGs, including The Matrix Online, Auto Assault, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Shadowbane, Earth and Beyond, and Anarchy Online, topping the best of those by about 60,000 subcriptions.

 

source: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html 

 

---

- AC1 is a very hardcore PvE game. (With some hardcore PvP servers). Death brutally stings in AC1.

---

Death didn't hurt in AC1. If you knew how item drops on death worked, you could get away with dropping nothing. AC1 wasn't hardcore at all. If anything, World of Warcraft and Everquest are hardcore because of the immense time investment required.

 

 

---

- AC1 developed a core following. When it came out, there were only 2 other major mmorpgs! And only 1 other NEW mmorpg! For a looong time EQ1 and AC1 were the ONLY new mmorpgs out. (Lineage 1 is another story.) Just like your first kiss, your first car, you never forget it. Same with your first mmorpg!

---

While you're probably right about that partially, I think the great game mechanics played a massive role in the nostalgia for the game. The freeform character creation system, the live team bringing the story to the players in realtime (bael'zharon raiding cities and killing people!), the physics that made it like a combination of an FPS and an RPG where you could actually dodge spells and arrows, the ability to have a unique character due to the randomly generated armor and weapons and the skill system (hell even jump and run were skills, and raising them would raise your jump height and run skill), the incredibly well thought out quests that were repeatable because they were designed so well that focused on exploring and making your way through a challenging dungeon rather than killing 10 rabbits and turning in their fur to an npc, and the fact that level played very little part in the game early on. Once you got to level 30 you were set for PvP, you could take on level 50s if you were good enough, you could do all the same quests as a level 40, or a level 10, and there were plenty of other things that mad eit great as well (allegiance system where you swore allegiance to someone and they'd gain a portion of your earned XP, giving higher level players a reason to help lower level ones, and preventing every newbie on the pvp server from being instakilled).

 

 

---

- Last, the major features that would have made AC2 DIFFERENT from ALL OTHER mmorpgs, were either never put in, or held back. Making for less of a reason to check out AC2. They advertised in every press release, magazine interview - how NPCs would destroy towns, and players would be able to re-build them, then defend them vs NPCs trying to destroy them again. No other mmorpg had this feature, and it would have made AC2 stand out, and be veeery intresting. Never put in, even while their ads said it was in the game LOL!

---

This is one of the reasons I bought AC2. :(
 

 

Do you realize you're replying to a 3 year old post?

OMG, necro much.  

Anyway...AC2 is dead.  May it forever rot in the abyss of bad games.

Originally posted by grunty

Originally posted by Scottc

 

AC1 capped out at 120k subscribers, whereas AC2 capped out at 50k subscribers. It was vastly more popular than many MMORPGs, including The Matrix Online, Auto Assault, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Shadowbane, Earth and Beyond, and Anarchy Online, topping the best of those by about 60,000 subcriptions.

 

source: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html 

 

---

- AC1 is a very hardcore PvE game. (With some hardcore PvP servers). Death brutally stings in AC1.

---

Death didn't hurt in AC1. If you knew how item drops on death worked, you could get away with dropping nothing. AC1 wasn't hardcore at all. If anything, World of Warcraft and Everquest are hardcore because of the immense time investment required.

 

 

---

- AC1 developed a core following. When it came out, there were only 2 other major mmorpgs! And only 1 other NEW mmorpg! For a looong time EQ1 and AC1 were the ONLY new mmorpgs out. (Lineage 1 is another story.) Just like your first kiss, your first car, you never forget it. Same with your first mmorpg!

---

While you're probably right about that partially, I think the great game mechanics played a massive role in the nostalgia for the game. The freeform character creation system, the live team bringing the story to the players in realtime (bael'zharon raiding cities and killing people!), the physics that made it like a combination of an FPS and an RPG where you could actually dodge spells and arrows, the ability to have a unique character due to the randomly generated armor and weapons and the skill system (hell even jump and run were skills, and raising them would raise your jump height and run skill), the incredibly well thought out quests that were repeatable because they were designed so well that focused on exploring and making your way through a challenging dungeon rather than killing 10 rabbits and turning in their fur to an npc, and the fact that level played very little part in the game early on. Once you got to level 30 you were set for PvP, you could take on level 50s if you were good enough, you could do all the same quests as a level 40, or a level 10, and there were plenty of other things that mad eit great as well (allegiance system where you swore allegiance to someone and they'd gain a portion of your earned XP, giving higher level players a reason to help lower level ones, and preventing every newbie on the pvp server from being instakilled).

 

 

---

- Last, the major features that would have made AC2 DIFFERENT from ALL OTHER mmorpgs, were either never put in, or held back. Making for less of a reason to check out AC2. They advertised in every press release, magazine interview - how NPCs would destroy towns, and players would be able to re-build them, then defend them vs NPCs trying to destroy them again. No other mmorpg had this feature, and it would have made AC2 stand out, and be veeery intresting. Never put in, even while their ads said it was in the game LOL!

---

This is one of the reasons I bought AC2. :(
 

 

 

Do you realize you're replying to a 3 year old post?

Hahaha...  I did not realize that, no.  It appeared at the top of the page, above my posts, so I figured it was new.  Not my problem that this forum is buggy as hell.

Originally posted by xplororor

[quote]

Originally posted by dolanious
[b]I have to give the disclaimer that I know nothing of AC or AC2, but seeing as how AC2 is being unplugged I’ve been interested in the circumstances surrounding the events leading up to this point.

I see that AC1 was popular and remains so today… My question is: If AC1 was so popular, why release a AC2? [/b]

[/quote]

AC1 was never popular. This had nothing to do with whether it was good or bad.... it had everything to do with very, very, pooooor advertising. AC1 has ONLY had 1 free trial offer in its entire history! And it's been out as long as EQ1 ! AC1 is a very well made game. It has tons, and tons, of NICE features. The CEO of Turbine needs to get fired sooo badly lol.

 

---

More importantly: Why release AC2 without shutting down AC1?

---

 

I can understand why you ask this. The thing with mmorpgs, is... just because there is a "2" in the name, does not mean its the same game as the first one. obviously graphics will be different. But also with new technology, far more NEW and DIFFERENT features can be put into the new game. Just like a 2005 Cadillac can be/is vastly different from a 2000 Cadillac. Same name, technically its a sequel, but it has tons of features that are different, better, etc....

Heck, sometimes the ONLY thing in common is just the name. The "sequel" could be a 100% different game.
Now, why not shut down the old game? Believe it or not, there are always fans of old games. It might have been their first game, and they feel sentimental about it. Sometimes the old game is as good, and better than the new game = the old game has features other players prefer.
In the end though, as long as the old game makes $$$$, and the new game also makes $$$$, the investors, the CEO, could care less what the exact reasons are why players still play the old game, and the new game.

[quote]
In my mind, have the two games live at the same time is asking for trouble. AC2 will be competing with AC1 and the company will eventually cannibalize its subscriptions. Why wasn’t AC1 closed down after AC2 hit live? Was this the biggest factor that lead to AC2 shutting down while AC1 still forges ahead?

….or am I way off base?
[/b] [/quote]

ONLY if AC2 were an exact copy of AC1, except for better graphics .... would it be in danger of cannibalizing AC1.
- AC1 is a very hardcore PvE game. (With some hardcore PvP servers). Death brutally stings in AC1.
- AC1 developed a core following. When it came out, there were only 2 other major mmorpgs! And only 1 other NEW mmorpg! For a looong time EQ1 and AC1 were the ONLY new mmorpgs out. (Lineage 1 is another story.) Just like your first kiss, your first car, you never forget it. Same with your first mmorpg!

- AC2 went in a different direction than AC1, it aimed at more casual players. It was a very, very, softcore PvE game. Easy to level up, death did not sting as hard as in AC1. The gameworld looked different. There were DIFFERENT features.

and... add the facts that...
- AC2 FAILED mostly due to being 75% UNFINNISHED at release. Players discovered the end game was not even put in!
-It was also a very buggy game at release.
You have heard of the saying "First Impressions are everything"? It is true! AC2 never recovered from its messy release.
-Many horrible exploits players discovered were never re-set. meaning after the game DEVs discovered them, and took them out - they NEVER took away the gains players got from taking advantage of the exploits. Taking advantage of exploits is the same as hacking the game. Except an exploit is a "random hack". Exploits are game bugs that work to your BENIFIT, allowing you to play the game in a way NOT intended, that gives you an unnatural edge.

-AC2 was doomed before it released. It had the worse run beta test ever in mmorpg history. Beta testers were censered from posting what they found, and their suggestions. There wasn't even an official person at Turbine to READ what the beta testers found! It wasn't until the last week of beta, that a person was hired to be a liasion between the beta testers and the game DEVs.

- Last, the major features that would have made AC2 DIFFERENT from ALL OTHER mmorpgs, were either never put in, or held back. Making for less of a reason to check out AC2. They advertised in every press release, magazine interview - how NPCs would destroy towns, and players would be able to re-build them, then defend them vs NPCs trying to destroy them again. No other mmorpg had this feature, and it would have made AC2 stand out, and be veeery intresting. Never put in, even while their ads said it was in the game LOL!

4-6 months after release 50% of all players left. At release AC2 had 50k players. After 1 year it wiltered down to 6k players. Some servers never peaked higher than 300 people online at the same time at peak time.

Will future game DEVs LEARN from the AC2 mess? Time will tell.....

No sadly all tho i still play it after 6 months Aventurine maker of Darkfall did make the exact same mistake almost in every aspect same mistakes with no advertisment same god awefull beta and game way to early released and the biggest mistake let the early exploiters keep playing while they fixed most of bugs they never deleveld them.

AC2 was a great game after 2 years and when legions was released even much better but as you sum it up already it never recover from all those mistakes and demonized by many ex-fans and ac1 fans so AC2 failed:(

But there is always light on the end of tunnel future will tell:)