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All Posts by Redhawk2006

All Posts by Redhawk2006

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105 posts found

Hi everyone, just some quick questions:


1. What happens if your ship is captured. Is it lost for good or does it just go in your inventory like a destroyed ship?

2. What happens if you capture a ship, do you get a free ship?

3. Are there still plots available for houses and farms in safe areas?

4. Do you get good personal inventory or is inventory space a hassle?

5. Roughly how long does it take an individual to acquire the mats for the clipper?

6. Do you need a house to store the building packs?

Thank you

...or did they add a realistic number of slots since the Beta?


Originally posted by Itherael

I will have to disagree with you entirely. There is plenty of room already, unless you pick up every single thing you find in the world, which quite frankly isn't reasonable. First of all, there is no practical use for all the things you pick up. I say this because a very large portion of the things you pick up are crafting ingredients, and you can only realistically specialize in a few professions. You will probably end up selling more than half of it, while another portion rots in your inventory. Trying to be everything at the same time simply is not what this game encourages, especially due to its skill system.

Picking up everything you loot is perfectly reasonable. Looting is how you make money in MMO games. It is foolish to leave valuable loot on the ground and even more foolish to force people to do so as a means of controlling the economy, which in fact has nothing to do with this failed mechanic anyway.  Inventory management hassles are included in this game to serve as a tedious time sink substitute for real content and as a hook for a future f2p cash shop item.

On the other hand, you may be trying to hoard everything to flood the economy for your own personal gain, but that messes with the economy as a whole because if players don't have to take their inventory space into account, then they can grab anything and everything, causing the supply to far outweigh the demand. Furthermore, you talk about immersion, but I believe an infinite amount of inventory space would make for a far less believable and realistic experience for obvious reasons, thus diminishing immersion, and making ESO feel much more like a game.

What "obvious" reasons? It is believable to be able to be able to carry 120 steel breastplates in your pocket but 1000 would suddenly destroy immersion? That makes no sense. It's a fantasy world and you can basically paint anything you want into it. It takes a real effort of will to allow something that never  intrudes on your play time to somehow ruin your game experience, while denying that intrudes on your game play every hour or forces you into a strait-jacketed style of play is non-immersion killing.

Again, I will have to disagree. Repair costs serve an immensely influential factor within a game's economy, which is the fluctuation of gold. If there is no way for players to lose gold, then prices soar in order to take advantage of the greater buying power.

There needs to be mechanisms that control, at least to a certain extent, how much gold is in the economy, or else there is no way to fight inflation.

You're contradicting yourself. One minute you're saying we need to restrict the availability of crafting mats to keep prices from falling, and the next you are saying we need to have money sinks to keep prices from rising. Which is it?

Inflation is not caused by players having too much money. This is a myth. It is caused by scarcity. The supply of goods is theoretically almost unlimited, as is the supply of money. But demand is limited regardless of how much money people have because there is only so much gear you can buy before any reasonable need for gear is satisfied.

The sole purpose of money sinks is to make you grind for gold and increase the time you play the game. The idea of taking your money away to save it from being devalued by inflation makes as much sense as destroying villages to save them from communism. Whether your ability to purchase what you want is destroyed  by endless money sinks or by inflation amounts to the same thing. Inflation IS a gold sink. Except that inflation can be easily and unobtrusively controlled in games with price caps, just as GW2 controls deflation with price floors (can't sell items in AH for less than vendor price). There is no need to restrict money at all.

Furthermore, it creates downtime within the game, which is also important to control pacing.

That's another way of saying "grind" but thanks for making my point. Players don't want "downtime" they want to get in the game and have fun.

Again, this feature serves a critical purpose within ESO's gameplay, and I will have to disagree with your point. If resurrection were to be costless, a group of keep attackers in AvA would always win against defenders through attrition, as they would keep resurrecting their players while constantly beating down on the keep's defenses. Furthermore, in PvE this would allow smart groups of players to never wipe, unless the content was so brutally hard that this mechanic would have to be abused in order to get past encounters.


In WoW BGs, there were no death penalties, and players could rez at nearby graveyards to continuously put pressure on each other's teams. This made for incredibly intense battles where you had to keep on fighting off reinforcements while getting more of your own into the fight until one side or the other broke. Contrast this with GW2 where you have massive zergs running around ROFL stomping smaller groups in seconds and then you have to run halflway across the world to find a fight only to experience the ROFL stomp again, which is no fun on the receiving or the delivering end.


It was rare on my sever to have solid, toe-to-toe fights with equal groups which is why there was such a demand for unsanctioned Guild vs Guild combats with equal groups in WvW. But for toe-to-toe fights to happen and last a reasonable time, you needed the ability to rez people and keep them in the fight. Those were the few times combat was ever "epic" in that game and fights that are over in seconds due to a lack of rezzing or numbers are scarcely worth the real estate you have to traverse to get to them.


With all I have read, I strongly recommend you try Guild Wars 2 (unless you have, in which case you should stick to it). The things you desire will never happen in ESO, as their design philosophy throughout all game systems has made this clear enough. I'm sorry, but if these things make or break your opinion of the game, then it is probably not for you.

I have, and I am not a fanboi who can't see the pros and cons of that game for what they are. The inventory system was excellent and unobtrusive as it should be, but you did have to pay for space. WvW needed to be something more than a zergfest and door-bashing borefest. Death penalties will keep people from fighting to the death or taking risks just like  in GW2, and RvR will be stale as hell because of it.

Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Elikal

I agree with the OP.

Those are just made up mechanics which make no sense at all.

And this is why I will always prefer F2P or Micro-transaction business models.  Every single one of those issues (plus others) is nothing more then developmental obstacles used to keep you subscribed longer.  In a F2P model you can alleviate most of these issues by monetizing the obstacles and hurdles.

So...if I understand you correctly you're saying that F2P is better because they leave in the time sinks and charge money to speed them up a bit?


Interesting perspective.

It's not necessarily better. It depends on how generous they are and whether you get value for your money. Star Trek Online charges you an arm and a leg for inventory and still doesn't give you enough inventory. But that game is arguably the worst cash shop rip off out there, as are most Perfect World games.

In GW2 it costs roughly $60 to max out your bank slots, but once you do so you won't have too much of a problem with inventory after that. That's the equivalent of 4 months sub fees in ESO. In this game you pay a sub fee and they still stiff you on inventory space, giving you even less free space  than GW2 does even though this is how GW2 makes it's money.

In either game you have to or /have an option to grind for gold to increase to pay for inventory. But this takes time, and time is money.

If you play every day and have to spend an hour hassling with inventory and doing so kills your gameplay, that's 365 hours of hassle every year and a ruined game experience. If you could pay $60 to eliminate that hassle, at US minimum wage that's 8 hours worth of your labor. If you're an attorney making $180.00 an hour that's 20 minutes  worth of your labor. Which is a more productive use of your time in the long run? Which enables you to escape the inventory grind right from the word go and which requires a gold grind before you can alleviate it and still fails to give you adequate inventory?

Our attorney in this example who can bill for $180.00 an hour would have to sacrifice 365 hours worth of billable time at $180.00 per hour managing inventory, which is $65,700 a year to play a game with limited inventory versus $60.00 to eliminate the problem once and for all. Which makes more sense?

Originally posted by Aulliwyn
Originally posted by Redhawk2006

I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.


I have..others have. An over abundance of goods flooding the market (because everyone can loot everything without ever stopping) can cause the economy to become over saturated. Limiting the flow of goods can slow/prevent inflation. 

No, limiting the flow of goods creates scarcity and causes inflation. Demand for crafted items is not unlimited, so there is a limit to how much people are willing to pay for crafted items "irregardless" of the prices of crafting mats. It depends more on the viability and availability of alternatives. The likelihood of being able to turn a profit with crafted items decreases with every increase in the cost of mats.


I do not agree with your "Yes and No" assessment of Guild Wars 2. I give it a resounding "no" if only by the example you gave. 

There is no doubt the market was oversaturated with crafting mats in GW2, which caused these mats to be cheaper. Despite this, you still couldn't make money with crafted items, and a big part of the reason for that is that you have an economy with perfect knowledge of prices where everyone continuously undercuts everyone else, leading to deflation and thus lack of profits for crafted items. This is one of the primary causes of deflation in games.

This has absolutely ZERO to do with the inventory system. You forget that everyone can instantly list items on the AH from anywhere. if you took away the generous inventory for crafting mats the game has, people would just dump that stuff on the Ah creating even more saturation, and even more deflation in prices. In either case crippling game play to somehow control inflation or deflation makes no sense. There are easier and less intrusive way to do this.

As it is, a lot of people in the game hoard crafting mats due to the generous inventory, which means this stuff stays off the market and decreases supply, which would tend to increase prices, rather than decrease them. In any case i suspect it has little impact either way as the amount of goods hoarded is probably just a fraction of the amount of goods for sale. All it does is ensure that crafters can keep an adequate supply of crafting materials on hand without getting an aneurysm from micromanaging inventory, and I don't see where any serious crafter would regard that as a bad thing. Lack of inventory space kills crafting.

Edit: But as Distopia has stated...truly it is subjective no matter how we look at it.

Whether or not the inventory system causes crafted items to not be profitable is not a subjective matter. Your belief  that unlimited inventory somehow killed the economy in GW2 is inconsistent with the facts of that game. I can see how what you perceive as a ruined economy might effect your enjoyment of the game. I don't see how that would wreck your immersion or ability to focus on other aspects of the game, unless this was the only aspect you cared about.

I don't see where meaningful gameplay like exploring, doing quests and WvW should be ruined just so people can have a better experience with the economy. The economy and inventory system are just tools to serve the game. The game should not be a tool to serve the economy and inventory system. That makes as much sense as ruining a housebuilding project so passerby can have fun playing with saws and hammers.

Originally posted by Distopia

That's where subjective comes in, and was my entire point, there's no real argument here it's all subjective, their reasons are their own, as are their reasons for disagreeing with your reasons, it goes round and round and round, there's no truth to come in and stop it....

Here's the problem. I recognize that different people have different opinions and different preferences in a game. There is something I like to call the "Courtesy of Credulity" where in any discussion I act as if I believe that people are being sincere and honest in everything they say, even if i secretly believe they are not. If you think everyone is a liar or act that way, no dialogue is possible and any discussion is pointless.

Unfortunately, given the amount of White Knighting and trolling that goes on in these forums, that courtesy begins to approach dangerously close to naivete. The usual pattern whenever anyone criticizes a game here is that one person will launch into a personal  attack against the op or deny that any of the things the op says are real problems. After that a small legion of dittoheads will descend on the thread and repeat the personal attacks based on whatever the initial attack or comment was, and they will repeat the denials or criticisms of the op's points using the exact same arguments of everyone who came before them. This happens in almost every critical thread.

A particularly ridiculous example of this, even by the standards of this forum,  is the huge number of people who attacked my credibility on the basis of my using the word "irregardless" as if that instantly disqualifies anything I have to say on any subject. Now the guy who first made that observation was not making a personal attack, not does he seem a troll or white knight. He was merely making an observation. But the comments that followed afterwards could not be more typical of the sort of thing I am describing here, and I would bet the family jewels that if that first guy hadn't noticed my use of the word, no one who commented here would have done so.

The idea that unlimited inventory is somehow immersion-breaking while constantly having to hassle with inventory is not seems absurd to me. This doesn't mean  I am right and you are wrong, just that I am not seeing how this can be so. A rational argument as to WHY people feel that way, rather than just a naked assertion that it is "obvious" would go along way to helping me understand other people's point of view. I would also see it as a demonstration of sincerity in a thread where there has clearly been a lot of trolling, white knighting and irrational insinuations about my character and gaming preferences from a handful of participants.

Originally posted by mogilny89

You make a lot of good points.

Bag space always reveals the intention of a game.  Like Age of Wushu where your bags actually expire every 3-5 days or whatever.  Why would they make anything so unfun?

My suggestion would be to eliminate about half the items.  No needing different stones for each of ten races, no mindless endless stacks of ingredients.  What is the purpose of looting if you cant carry the items?

The soul gems and the bag space and the horses reveal this game already has a bailout f2p model in its back pocket, and they are probably going to need it.

That's what I fear as well. This game has a bad case of Cashopilitis where critical game areas like inventory and the ability to earn money have been hamstrung so that a cash shop solution can be implemented when the game goes f2p. I don't mind paying a sub fee normally, but I do mind when I pay a sub fee and get restrictions that are more galling than a b2p game like Guild Wars 2, where you start off with way more inventory than this and can easily purchase a comfortable amount for the equivalent of 3 or 4 months sub fee in this game.

Originally posted by Aulliwyn
Originally posted by Redhawk2006akes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic. 

I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.


3. state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.

Which is precisely how I am using the word.


Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Redhawk2006
Originally posted by loopback1199

Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.

I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.


Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic. 

I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.

Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway

 I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.


If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it  then move on yourself.

I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.

If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.

Originally posted by Vannor

So.. yeh

The OP is wrong on just about every point. Inventory space can be increased... so that was a waste of finger energy.

Who said it wasn't upgradable?

Repair costs are a gold sink, all games have them.. and they are a death penalty.

All games do not have gold sinks, nor are they necessary. They are not a death penalty, because you accrue them even if you don't die just by playing the game. If you never die, then this game isn't much of a challenge, is it?

You don't want a death penalty you say? Might as well get rid of death altogether than..

That makes no sense whatsoever. How does that logically follow? Death is a death penalty in itself. GW2 had it right in their pre-release commentaries, though they later reneged on their promise. i can't say it any better:

"Why should we debuff you, take away experience, or make you run around for five minutes as a ghost instead of letting you actually play the game? We couldn’t think of a reason. Well, we did actually think of a reason -- it just wasn’t a good one. Death penalties make death in-game a more tense experience. It just isn’t fun. We want to get you back into the action (fun) as quickly as possible. Defeat is the penalty; we don’t have to penalize you a second time."

Fun. In MMO games. The horror!

If you want a death penalty and "immersion" then repair costs are a joke anyway. In the real world when someone stabs you in the chest with a spear, you die in agony spitting blood. That's a death penalty. Get hit once and your character dies and you have to start from scratch. Repair costs are just another noxious unfun grind, let's stop with the absurd notion they are some kind of pillar of meaningful gameplay.

Soul gems? Expensive? Lol.. not only can you fill them passively at later stages of the game, they cost absolutely nothing and the charge on items lasts for hours.

They are very expensive, if you wish to keep your weapons charged and they become obsolete as you level up. They don't last for hours unless you're doing nothing but whacking bunnies. Be real.

I'll be even more clear about what I mean. This is an RPG.. progression is one of the main features. Quality of life comes with progression.. if you keep playing all those problems go away, leaving you with the feeling you have achieved something. This is why we play these games.

You can have progression without tedium and grind. It is a fiction that this genre require either. Grind is not "progression" it is regression, which is why most players hate it. True progression in these games requires developers who can think outside the tired formula they have relied on for years and to which players are thoroughly burned out.

Originally posted by loopback1199

Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.

I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.

On that same thought, ALL MMO's are immersion killing due to the ability to somehow carry 10 axe/sword/bow/shield/full plate/insert-whatever-bulky-item-here, all in a backpack where the only real restriction is MAYBE a speed hindrance issue in older games... which is the most immersive and realistic it's ever really gotten, without ever a single complaint of 'it ruins my immersion because I should have a buffalo sized backpack showing.'.

Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic. 

I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.

Originally posted by Aulliwyn

I have two final questions for you:

1) Would you like an inventory system similar to Guild Wars 2?

2) Would say say that Guild Wars 2 boasts a healthy in game economy?

1. Yes, this is exactly what i want, only without having to pay cash for the extra bank space slots like you do In GW2. If I am paying a sub fee I feel I am already paying for bank space and shouldn't face f2p restrictions on inventory. Having to grind to get gold to pay for upgrades which are still inadequate is an even greater waste of my time that just paying for them in cash as you do in GW2. My time is as valuable to me as cash is, except that I can't earn more time. Ideally, since adequate inventory is a necessity you shouldn't have to pay extra for it. Developers neat to get their head out of the p(ass)t on this issue.

2. Yes and no. As far as being able to find abundant crafting materials at reasonable prices the economy was a success. As far as being able to earn money crafting, no, that didn't seem possible save for a few items, but this seems to be the case in many MMOs I have played. Crafted goods usually sell for less than the materials needed to craft them, despite the fact the mats WERE cheap at one time, don't know about now. That is definitely a market failure.

I am not sure how increasing scarcity even more through limited inventory and the lack of a central AH would remedy that problem, rather than make it worse. Making mats scarcer makes them more expensive, yet demand for crafted materials is based on player needs and not the cost of making the items. Charge enough to cover costs and nobody will buy your stuff when there is often better loot drops to be found in the wild. The only way to remedy this problem is to make crafted gear the highest grade gear you can own, and I doubt most MMOs will go that route.

Originally posted by Distopia

What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?

What's more realistic, having a ship with a huge cargo bay but which can only carry a handful of lightweight items, or a ship with a huge cargo bay which can carry a huge cargo bay worth of items? There's is nothing "unrealistic" about having unlimited inventory in a fantasy game, since the parameters of what is within the realm of the possible are far more generous than games based on real life. Having a massive warehouse  and a personal inventory imp to ferry your crap back and forth is perfectly consistent with this game world. Having a chopper fly in to grab your goods in a real-world themed game and ferry them to your warehouse would be just as reasonable.

Originally posted by Aulliwyn

So you play characters who are the type that walk into a house and gather every last item with a hyperactive zeal? Part of the challenge and involvement with an MMORPG is getting to know what item is valuable to you and what can be looked over. It's not a chore. It is a knowledge that is tempered through time and devotion.

I hardly think collecting items off the ground involves "hyperactive zeal" in any case, but yes, I do prefer to loot everything as it is more convenient and efficient. I am not sure why I should prefer tedious make work over efficiency. The overwhelming majority of MMORPG gamers are not role players, so let's nip that insinuation in the bud. There is nothing about having an adequate inventory system that precludes me needing to know the value of items. It simply precludes me from having to throw those valuable items away.

You can upgrade your bank. Spend the coin. If space is the most important thing to you: Spend the coin to expand your inventory, your bank, and your horse storage space.

You are operating under the assumption that people have unlimited gold, and can just buy whatever they want in this game, or that the max inventory you can buy is adequate, which it isn't. Purchasing inventory slots is exorbitantly overpriced and gets worse as you go along. 

If inventory management is somehow entertaining for you, you can always stop every half hour or so and sort through your items and throw stuff away if you like. You can set your own, artificial limit and enjoy the exciting "challenge" of sticking to it. It's your choice, but at least with unlimited inventory, this choice is not being forced on you to the degree it ruins the game experience.

Your suggestion of how I should handle personal limits is absurd. I tend to stick with the concept that we are all on an even playing field. Your patronizing is noted and unappealing. As I said: Knowing what is valuable and what is junk should be a knowledge honed throughout an extensive experience in this game. Destroying something and finding out it could have fetched you some gold should be a valuable lesson. Unless you do not want to devout any thought to the game, then that is the mindset of a content locust. Get everything. Don't think. Profit. Herp-De-Derp.

I was not not being patronizing to you in any way. You made the case that having unlimited inventory is "immersion-breaking" without giving a good explanation as to why. I can only assume based on what you said here that you enjoy these micromanagement tasks and feel that in the absence of being forced to do them and sort through inventory you lose a sense of immersion. If that's your "bag" then fair enough. I am not going to question your preference or insult you for having a different opinion than me on what is valuable or not in these games.

I pointed out the obvious fact that there is nothing about having unlimited inventory that precludes you from engaging in micromanaging your inventory; it simply makes it an optional activity to be done at your leisure rather than a forced activity or problem you have to continuously work around every time you loot a mob, which is what you say you do. With unlimited inventory, I can have my cake and you can eat it too. With inadequate inventory, you get what you want but the game is ruined for me. I think this is obvious enough.

The only other assumption I can make since you fail to clarify your position is that it is not the absence of tedious and grindy activities that kills your immersion, but the very idea of there being unlimited inventory, as you see it as being not consistent with the fantasy theme and therefore a blight on your game play. On this score I can't agree. I can see if I were asking for an 18-wheeler truck to follow behind me to hold my stuff, or an AK-47 to shoot my enemies with. Within the context of a fantasy game, these things would be absurd and out of place and may well kill immersion.

But in a game where dead people can teleport and rez at a wayshrine and you can carry up to 120 steel breastplates in your pocket, I am not sure how much more "immersion-killing" being able to carry 1000 breastplates would be, or having adequate inventory in your bank space. These are all perfectly defensible within the parameters set by the typical fantasy game.


As far as your comment about the AH: You are taking this to the opposite extreme. And you are wrong...Mats sell to merchants for dirt cheap: Heck the crafting stones sell for 0 gold. I think the jury is still out on how this will effect the game's economy but I am optimistic. The creative and devoted will thrive while the lazy and uninsightful will pay the price. That's fine with me

Thanks for that lesson in video gamer supremacism. It is good to know that people who enjoy grindy make work time-sinks are intellectually superior to us lazy and uninsightful dolts who just play games for fun, rather than an e-peen.

I think you and I interpret immersion differently. Whereas Role Play concepts immerse me into the world...being able to continuously fling yourself into the content with no braking points until you want to stop is your cop of tea. I don't have a point where I need to stop and destroy things...because things that I don't want to bother with selling/breaking down/or researching...I don't pick up.

This is how I manage my inventory: I mark all stones that I have no intent on using as just in case I pick them up they are seperated to their own window so that I can easily find and delete them. I do this the same with all ingredients I don't use. I do woodworking and clothier (cloth) for instance: So I mark everything else as junk. Sometimes I will keep that junk to sell in case I pick it up...but then other stuff I either don't pick or delete. I "might" get the "full inventory" message once a night. After 4 hours of playing from 1-11 I am not hurting for cash. I have 7kg now which is not bad for a fresh toon made in this beta. There are no tricks: Just smarts. Adapt and you'll do well.

You keep reinforcing my point about the inventory system requiring relentless micromanagement while denying that it does. Nothing you describe sounds like fun and indeed your way of "adapting" to the system sounds even more tedious than what i do, and therefore isn't particularly helpful as a solution to the problem you offer a work around for but deny exists. But thanks for the insight that if you want to play games with broken mechanics you have to adapt to those mechanics. I never would have guessed. M'aiq says that if you want to play games as bug-ridden as the Beta for this game is, you have to adapt to the bugs, too, but he is too much the uninsightful dolt to know whether this is true or not.

it has now become the industry standard to release games in a buggy, dysfunctional state and take forever to fix longstanding bugs. The reason for that is obvious. Whenever a developer pulls this crap, the response from the hallelujah chorus is always:

"Name a game that hasn't released with bugs" as if the fact other developers have released bug-ridden games somehow justifies the practice.

I wish for once gamers en masse would call BS and ask for their money back and punish developers that do this. Any major bug discovered in Beta should be squashed before launch. The only bugs you should be seeing are those that didn't surface until after the game was launched or other changes were made. If this game launches with broken Mainline quests or quests that can be bugged out by having trolls standing around the spawn point dancing naked (as I saw this weekened) then that's grounds for some serious flak being fired their way, not more fawning adulation.

Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by Netspook

2. While I do not personally have a problem with the penalty and the repairs, it sounds like you're saying it's OK to penalize bad players more than the good ones. And that's why I believe repair costs should NEVER be high, regardless of game.

Thats how games work, if I am bad at chess, I get penalized by losing, if im bad at football I lost against someone better, if im bad at WoW or EQ or FF14, I get penalized more than if I were good.

When you lose at chess you get penalized by losing, not by having to pay a repair bill on your chess pieces or trying to fit all 32 chess pieces in a box designed for 16.

Originally posted by Calven

My immersion breaks when I'm able to carry 4 tons of loot. There's a reason you're not able to carry that much.. Inventory space is fine.

Repair costs are there for a reason. It drains money out of the game and I'm sure you have experienced how clothes slowly deteriorate over time. I own a pair of shoes with almost no heel left. It is even more realistic considering you're taking massive hits to the armour you're weaing. You know what breaks my immersion? Entering a fight and almost die but my armor shines just as bright as the day I bought it. Not a single scratch despite the 1000 hits it has taken during its time...

What you are advocating here is the removal of challenging gameplay. You want it all, and you want it now with absolutely no consequences on your part.. I don't gain any fun from a game that makes me a godlike creature from the very beginning or takes away what little risk that may be in it. Wanna know how to keep the repair costs low? Don't die... Wanna know how to carry more useful items? Don't pick up worthless junk. Think about what is useful and what isn't. Can you make a trip to a nearby town soon?

I swear this genre is getting easier and easier..

Congratulations on the 576,333rd iteration of the "lazy, entitled gamer who wants it all for free" meme. Endless repetition of this shop-worn meme is more convincing than reason, facts or intellectual honesty to people who don't already agree with you.

But in the interest of fairness, I'd like to hear how an inventory system that doesn't require constant micro-management somehow "breaks" your immersion. You can't focus on having fun in this game unless you take a time out every hour to deal with inventory? How does this work, exactly? Why would having excess inventory capacity preclude you from micro-managing it if that's what you consider to be fun in games? How does "not dying" spare you from repair bills in a game where you accrue repair costs merely from playing? How is the micromanagement involved in avoiding "worthless junk" better than the micromanagement of picking up everything and then vendoring it? How do you know what is "worthless junk" and what isn't without a full knowledge of the crafting tree and its requirements?

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick


Yes. To make it as an MMORPG you need limited inventory, maintenance fees, and all these other little details that simulate the life of an adventuring hero in a fantasy world because without them you might as well just make an action game or FPS since you will have lost some of the depth and detail that define these games as a genre. I want to have to carry torches in my dungeons to see in the dark, buy carts and goats to haul my loot from the depths of the darkest dungeon, and when that crazy orc drops a rock on my shoulder pauldrons from above I expect to have to pay some repair fees on the plate mail. And I say all of this because these games should be about more than whacking mob x to death and walking over their corpse for a loot drop to auto-magically spawn in your inventory bag. Without these details, the games simply aren't worth playing amidst the alternatives. They have nothing to sell me on.

What you call "depth" most people call "grind." The fact that most MMOs are bogged down with tedious and boring grinds is a big reason these games are just not popular with the average gamer. I enjoy MMOs despite these things, not because of them. When they get to be too much the fun to anti-fun ration gets too high and people quit. It's as simple as that. People don't quit games that are fun. They quit games that are either boring and tedious to begin with or which stop being fun after doing the same thing too many times.

I don't doubt there are players like you that find these activities rewarding and important. My niece's fiance is like you and he even turns on all the animations in Civilization games so he can watch every single unit fight it out, which is as tedious as watching grass grow to me.

What I do doubt is that players like you are the norm, and that most people find inventory management any more rewarding and fun than balancing their check book. The fact f2p games can make good money selling inventory to their players to escape this particular hassle bears this out.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


1. if they gave you 200 inventory at the release of the game, you would want it to be 400 in another week, If they gave you 600, you would want to hae 800 by next month...  You will never be happy, you allways will want it all and you want it to be for free...

Don't tell me what i do and don't want. I realize your entire schtick on this forum is to impute nefarious motives and character flaws to everyone who criticizes this game, but after 576,332 iterations of the "lazy, entitled gamer who wants everything for free" meme it's high time to come up with some new material. What i want is fun, challenging material, not a tedious warehouse management mini-game whose sole purpose is to serve as a time sink and  substitute for real content.


2. Well, actually you are right, games dont need money sinks... But a healthy ecconmomy will require them,  money should allways be rare in these games for the majorrity of people, so nothing feels like it is for free,

No, it should feel like you are paying to work a boring part-time job for no pay, because voluntary enslavement to a game company's bottom line is not just fun, but a worthy life goal.

Becaus eif you give everything for free, there is no reason to play these kinds of games anymore, making people leave after a few weeks..   Its carrots that makes the world go round in MMo games,...   and making money kind of rare delivers a huge pile of carrots.

Death penalties, repair bills and grind are not carrots, they are sticks. They add noting to the game. Most people prefer rewards over punishments, and this game is heavy on the punishments and light on the rewards, with cash and loot drops being pathetic compared to the gold sinks and grind. Being impoverished in real life is not fun, what makes it fun in a game?


3. You obviously want it all for free, you dont want any deeper mechanics in this game... you want a game thats easy to play and easy to win.  So you can move on quickly to the next game once you have won this.... games that require effort to play are obviously not your cup of tea...  how is it hard to place a single in one of your skillslots and just use some soulmagic to refill your soulgems?

Obviously, complaining about the crap inventory system in this game can only mean that i want everything handed to me for free. i want a full set of purple armor with the first mob I kill and I want God mode in PVP so I can kill people without risk. Oh, and a wall hack would be nice too.

Sheesh, do you guys ever stop to think how irrational you sound with these extremist accusations? NO ONE wants everything for free in a game. This is a total strawman, and you know it.


  I think you have been a little spoiled by the current generation of MMos that gives away everything for free to the players, and calls it a fun game... sadly these fun games fail to keep anyone interested for much longer then 2 or 3 months... Bringing back some of the older depth of MMos, with many small mechanics that require attention (and still keeping away from the things that actually feel lik pain) might keep players attention for just a bit longer stretch.

The funny thing about all those "old" grindfest games is that most of them are still around but here's the thing:

ALMOST NO ONE PLAYS THEM ANY MORE. If they were that good, why is everyone gravitating to these alleged "easy mode" games and not playing the best games evah? Could it be that most players prefer to have fun over working an unrewarding, frustrating part time job that looks more like work than the real thing?

There's another oft-repeated Army saying that comes to mind with regards to "fun" activities we were forced into that were anything but fun:

"This is too much like work."

Originally posted by Aulliwyn

No. You don't have to return to town. Just don't pick up every bloody thing. Specialize in, for instance, the Bosmer only collect the bone but leave the moonstone, Adamanite, Flint, Nickle,...ect. Specialize. That is what I mean by adapt.


This is what I mean by "inventory management nightmare." Having to constantly sort through items and decide what is good and bad is not fun, it is a frustrating, grindy chore. One of the first rules of any MMO is you never know how valuable an item might be until you need it. You are defending a highly restrictive and inadequate inventory system.


That is not what I was pointing out to be a logical fallacy. I guess I DO have to explain why being able to carry an unlimited amount of stuff is immersion breaking. Actually no. Let's take this to the most immersive environment available. The real world. Go pick up EVERYTHING in your house and get back to me.


Why would I want to pick up everything in my house? Try moving all your household items into an apartment the size of your bathroom. Does that sound doable or fun? Is that somehow more "immersive" than having enough space in your house for the items you want and need? In the real world, most people  prefer more storage space than they need to less than they need. Most people prefer to hang on to valuables rather than throw them away.


As far as expanding inventory like how it's done in can do that in this game. Go to a bag vendor and they'll expand your inventory. The banker will sell you more space. All done through in game currency.


The cost for doing so is exorbitant and gets higher with each upgrade. The total number of slots at end game (if reports here are true) is completely inadequate even if you had that many slots at the start, especially if you have mutliple toons sharing the same bank space.


Unlimited inventory destroys economy and immersion. Please think honestly and critically about what I have said here. Even Skyrim had limited space through the weight system (unless you cheated).

I am really struggling to see how unlimited inventory destroys immersion, Let's break it down logically. Something that is "immersion-breaking" is anything that serves to distract your attention away from the game play, and into something where you would rather your attention not be. Someone coming up and talking to you while you are playing the game is immersion-breaking. Being sent to the store to buy milk while you are playing is immersion-breaking. Some idiot chatting on his cell phone at the movie theater is immersion-breaking. Having to stop exploring and having fun every one to two hours because your bags are full is immersion-breaking. Being in the middle of an epic PVP fight and having to stop to empty your bags or leave valuable loot on the ground is immersion-breaking.

By the definition of "immersion-breaking" that i use, can you seriously deny any of these points?

Now explain to me how a more than adequate inventory system which you never have to think about or fuss with can possibly interfere with your game play or break your immersion in the game? It serves its function perfectly by not requiring you to get rid of valuable items, and does not require you to constantly shuffle through inventory items which is boring, frustrating and grindy. At no time does it stop your game play in its tracks and force you to do something you'd rather not do. You can obey the First Law of MMOs which is "never throw anything away until you are sure it is worthless."

If inventory management is somehow entertaining for you, you can always stop every half hour or so and sort through your items and throw stuff away if you like. You can set your own, artificial limit and enjoy the exciting "challenge" of sticking to it. It's your choice, but at least with unlimited inventory, this choice is not being forced on you to the degree it ruins the game experience.

Limited inventory ruins the economy by encouraging people to vendor or destroy items rather than sell them in the AH because it's too much hassle to return to your guild's ah every hour or so. The more scarce items are, the more inflation becomes a problem and the harder it is to get your crafting done due to lack of mats.

I quit GW2 because the economy was bad and I already cramed hundreds of dollars a month into the game. For was not f2p. A game liek that is only f2p for the leeches...the entitled gamers... But based on this last little snippet of information: TESO IS NOT NOR WILL NEVER BE FOR YOU! Look elsewhere. I never chastised you, btw. Even that statement in caps was me expressing my opinion based on these observations. The guilds will run AHs. I am not a fan of this...but, to my understanding, you can sell your goods to anyone in your faction from your guilds owned AH. It is a step backwards, I agree. But I will reserve judgement until I see it in action on live.

How is someone not paying hundreds of dollars a month "entitled" or a "leecher"?  How does my expessing my opinion that the inventory system is inadequate prove that this game  "WILL NEVER BE FOR YOU!" (with all caps and exclamation point, no less). They have already increased inventory by a token amount. They are clearly aware that people are dissatisfied with the inventory, otherwise why would they do that? It is possible they might increase it to the point it is not a major hassle, if enough people stop pretending that it isn't.

Unfortunately I am beginning to think a lot of the responses here have less to do with the validity of my complaints than the fact that I am complaining at all, which is so very often the case on this forum. Otherwise why this need to direct critics to go find another game that is so often expressed here?

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