I think the true reasons is because it's not the game many people were promised so far, thats because it's being released about 6-12 months tooo early and isnt polished enough.

+ most people are mad over performance issues

First off, great post Zorgo!!

Second,  judging from some of the responses here, some of these guys think because they've waited 5 months for this game that Sigil or whoever owes them something.   This is imaturity at it's highest.  No one owes you anything and the sooner you realize it the better off you'll be.

Imagine that?  "I been waiting for over 5 months and now I don't like what they giving me".  Incredible!!  So you honestly believe in your mind you're owed something?  Unbeleivable!!  First off,  you haven't paid anything and if you have on a pre-order which is the only thing you could of spent money on for this game, for $1 or at least $5 you can get the Beta cd.  You never spend the entire amount on a Beta regardless of the game or the hype involved.  if you know anything about gaming, you'll already know this.

It's not like when SOE pulled Galaxies from under us back then.  Then you could say they owed you because if you were one of the many long time players you had time and money invested in that game.  But here, to say you're owed because you've waited, well, that's very naive thinking.

Like I've said over and over, I haven't played it so there's no reason to defend it as I dislike SoE as much as anyone.  But to come with a weak argument of being owed something, well, that holds no water here.

I'm waiting for them to make the game more playable and only after playing it ,and after launch, not beta will I make my own decision whether I like it or not. 

But like Gorgo wrote, there are many different factors on why the constant bashing.

Originally posted by Eyeballz

Originally posted by Zorgo

I think there are many variables to the bashing. - Me too... the game sucks...

One problem is an instant gratification society. - Some would cause it busy... Some people have families or friends or play sports or have other hobbies... this game is poop - I do to, I like this game. Sounds like WoW is the right game for you. It plays at your reading level.

People got the beta, logged in, didn't 'get it' right away and logged out. It doesn't smash you in the face with its awesomeness, it unfolds and sneaks up on you if you start to delv into its features. This 'instant gratification' can be applied to a lot about the game. Because its in beta, there is effort involved to tweek settings since they are not final, people gave up rather than put effort. Because its beta, 100% of the content isn't in (although they are getting closer every day), people gave up rather than explore for what was out there, no hand holding.

Another problem is the 'Gimme what I'm due" attitude. - How DARE a customer want satisfaction... Games should be unfun and more like work.  I'm SO SICK of these games trying to be fun... when can we have a poorly written computer game offer time consuming chores with minimal satisfaction... PLEASE STOP THIS DAMN FUN STUFF!!  Cmon dude - you are not a customer you are a beta tester who chose to spend money on an unfinished product, not to play the game but to test it. If you had spent 50$ on it, then yes, you can be a little miffed that you didn't enjoy the game, but I bet you have bought games you didn't enjoy before, do you have this many posts registered for each of those?

....but fact is, you haven't become their customer yet, the game isn't out. You demand satisfaction as a beta tester and that is a 'gimme what i'm due' attitude when you aren't due jack or shit.

Get the pre-order? Send it back, get your money back. Pay fileplanet? Your beef is with fileplanet not Sigil, you paid for their service to host the download and provide you the files, didn't actually pay for the game.

Until you are actually a customer, stop demanding satisfaction.

Because of problem one, problem two rears its head. Haters are quick to place blame in our society. If we aren't happy, its someone elses fault and we demand retribution. Because people weren't instantly gratified, they immediately wanted to place blame and came to the boards to vent. Although Vanguard didn't force anyone into beta, the beta haters feel that somehow Vanguard owes them something. People can't say 'the game isn't for me' they have to say, 'Sigil owes me'.

Adolescents - nope 29 and very successful at life... game blows - I'm so embarassed for you....29 and a vendetta against a game that isn't out, it doesn't look like you have your life priorities in order. I wonder how it feels to be 29 writing hate posts with a bunch of adolescents. Do they make you feel like one of the popular kids?

I believe the majority of the haters are between 13 and 18 years old. *like Eyeballz acts, but sadly he's 29* Because with a teenagers level of maturity, coupled with their susceptibility to the first two problems, we wind up with a lot of hate posts.*like Eyeballz*

Misplaced rage - How about customer reviews? Should people who's treadmill fails or digital camera breaks not report a shoddy company?  Give me a break... people have EVERY right in the world, some would call it an obligation, to tell people the truth. And I have a right to tell people that you are a bad tester, poor judge of a game and that I doubt you were even in this games target audience. I liked the game, I'm telling the truth...as you say its my obligation.  This game is a HUGE letdown... to you, not everyone, people are trying SO HARD to like it...pretty easy for most of us in game to enjoy it  it's like OOO wait till level + 1!!! You get a renamed version of the spell from EQII and you can then do the quest to gather 10 X's and get the armor of STR+2... stupid aweful unorignal game - I can see how someone not very smart, not very patient and not seeing 99.9% of the game would feel that way.

Its a sad thing to think that we have people so outraged about a computer game.*like Eyeballz* It is as if their game play is the central focus of their life. They act as if the development companies is the government responsible for keeping them happy. This is a sad life.  So this is a big faceless corporation that has done you wrong? Welcome to the club. Don't you think you should focus your rage at big faceless corporations who are committing actual crimes against humanity, rather than taking it out on a computer company, *Eyeballz, I'm asking you*? Bet Enron cost you a lot more than that open beta, and I bet you didn't register your distaste in forums around the world. Sorry haters, your posting and reposting about a game you aren't gonna play is just pathetic.

Misinformation - I can see clear copies of many items in MMOs ... not even denied by Sigil ... but who cares at least the stuff the copied is good apparently you didn't read the following paragraph. You can't copy yourself. There is a difference between being the Beatles and being a Beatles cover band.

The 'seen that, done that' argument. Everyone keeps saying how this game copied every other game *like Eyeballz*, forgetting that these guys invented the system *like Eyeballz has forgotten or pretends he doesn't know*. They created this model. This is Sigil's schtick, this kind of gameplay. It is the others who are copycats, this isn't understood.

Trying to save face - Are you kidding me? The game sucks - so what is the nature of your hate? And I don't mean what do you hate about Vanguard, I mean, why do you hate it so much that you have to come back here time after time after time?  Why have you been trolling for days trying to get people who like the game to quit? Keep it up man, you've almost got me, 3 or 4 more threads about how bad Vanguard sux and I may finally realize it, and then I'll play your game with you? Is that what you want? Are you lonely?

The hate really started the first day or two of beta. As improvements have been made to the game in almost every area the original posts bashed, the haters with the lowest self esteem hunkered down and readied themselves in defense *like Eyeballz* It doesn't matter how wrong they are , or are proved to be, the socially unstable will now never realise their mistake, all because they need to SAVE FACE  Like cornering a wolverine, they get louder and angrier the closer they come to being proven wrong. *like Eyeballz*.

7 million subscribers can't be wrong - I bet you less than 200k within 3 months... this is Shadowbane all over again... without the originality... Shadowbane was at least ahead of its time. Time will tell. Funny thing about people who make prophesy, if they aren't from the Old Testament, they are usually nuts.

Millions have played and enjoyed WoW. It was a solid game but didn't hold my interest due to lack of depth. Others could never play it for that reason. Millions of others love it with a passion, I can't expect they would crossover to a game like this one easily. Some people think this game will have fewer subscription numbers than WoW, I don't doubt that a bit. Millions won't be able to upgrade, millions won't understand a game like Vanguard, but I think a million or so will.

I'm taking my ball and going home - This game runs like a 3 legged donkey on a great machine... and expecting people to upgrade for a game is not realistic... why not just get a 360 and get 10x the graphics... or a PS3 and get a free DVD player - too... you have a great machine and it runs like crap eh? Sounds like a problem with the nut behind the wheel to me. I play on a better than average, but not uber machine on balanced settings with a good frame rate that is continuing to improve. Don't call me a liar just cuz you don't know how to keep a clean machine.

Imagine a guy in WoW playing on a 5000 series nvidia with a 1.8 processor and maybe 1g of ram. The guild is getting pretty tired of WoW and is starting the process of moving to Vanguard. The player in our scenario, tries beta, can't run it, cries on the boards that the game is Suxxor, likely centering on 'performance issues will bring this game down' rather than understanding why his feelings are really hurt. His friends are leaving and he can't go with them.

Or

Maybe he does have a screamin machine, but he's just topped out in WoW, getting his first epic gear and the guild is moving to Vanguard....this hater is more likely to talk about 'the broken promises that it hasn't delivered' or 'the art/gameplay is bland'

Fear of change - This is totally bunk... people are BEGGING for something new... this is NOT NEW AT ALL... it's a repackage pile of 2002 - everyone? you are telling me that there is no one in mmo land that is satisfied with their uber character and uber game and not upset that their guild may be moving to Vanguard? No one? this was a list of many reasons people might be venting. I keep forgetting that you are the great prophet of mmo land that knows the hearts and minds of the whole communtiy. All hail Eyeballz, seer of all, knower of truth, here to save us all from a game he didn't really like that much.

People say they want new and innovative *like eyeballz did* but the truth is that people get very comfortable in their own ez chair. Topped out in your game, loads of loot, unstoppable armor....it's easy to see why some wouldn't want to climb that ladder all over again. It's hard to understand why people would choose to bash a game they have no intention of playing *like Eyeballz did* soley because they like their own kingdom they've created for themselves. Don't worry, Vanguard will not disturb your realm. Unless you guild is leavin you behind....

 

Originally posted by premierebori
It's because in V:SoH it's either you love it or you Hate it. NO middle ground.

Not true.

I have a love /hate relationship with this game.  Unfortunately most of what's wrong that I hate about it WON'T be fixed before they release it.

My most hated piece is that all the classes are not finished.

The only way you would think VSoH is getting some sort of "extra" amount of negative scrutiny, is if you hadnt seen a launch before.

The amount of posts I have deleted, people I have warned or banned on this one is as nothing compared to some other titles.

You should have been on the AO Basher site around launch time for AO.... geez there was people like threatening to go shoot each other and stuff, it was madness I tells ya....

This is mild...

Originally posted by SinCreator
Not to offend anyone, but I'm pretty sure you're all just a little bit crazy.  Fanatically defending or attacking a game is just silly.  It's as though people are building vendettas against other people and soon it's no longer about the game, but just who's right. 

Point taken.  I started by trying to correct false assumptions, but now I'm wondering,  for who?

Pretty much every mmorpg.com member has their opinion set on this game now. I'll quietly bow out before it becomes anymore unhealthy.

Do I have an agenda myself while I post here?  According to FoH, yes.  My "agenda" is to promote good design and appealing gameplays, and for some reasons, I can't stop thinking about Brad and his team.  When I keep repeating raid-free servers, I think it might, eventually, help improve our gaming experience (which equate to better profits in the long run for SoE as well).

But my agenda is not what should make you afraid, it is easy to read in my book.  You should be FAR more concerned with FoH's hidden agenda.  See, I wasn't ban on ANY forum ever...except on FoH forum.  They give the following reason: Your are advancing your own agenda.  See, peoples see around themselves faults they themselves have.  Egocentric peoples will often tell peoples around that they are all thinking of themselves.  FoH agenda isn't nice.

Now, what is FoH hidden agenda?  That is quite a question.  We can try to answer it, but...I don't know if I will be able to understand it, completely.  Facts:

- FoH left EQ in an EMO-ways, full of trashing and trying to tell everyone the game would died without them, it was the end of the world.

- FoH's joins Blizzard and manage to make them add raiding while removing EPIC as was intended by the initial staff at Blizzard.

- FoH is officially blindly supporting Vanguard.  Blind support lead to been content about anything, less productivity and less quality.

- FoH ruins the experience of more players then it actually "improve".  These guilds defend, in a rather harsh way, everything annoying in the game, in order to put an elitist feeling, which results in many players leaving the game.

It is not of a guy who say "Vanguard lack because graphics are lames" that I am worried, it of these nasty players.  Raiding ruins EQ for me, it ruins the gaming experience of many players.  Why do you think they ban me from their forums?  Brad didn't ban me from Vanguard official forums, SoE never ban me, Cryptic never ban me, this site never ban me, Legacy of Sorrow didn't bans me (despite the fact I was openly hating them, they would have every reason to do so, yet they certainly don't fear me and rather crave for discussions if you can call it that)...yet, FoH ban me.  Could it be that they fear me?  Why would they fear me?  That is an interesting question, isn't it?

Not long ago I was seeing a flame war between LoS and someone claiming he are working for Sigil (which in fact I would believe is a member of FoH rather than Sigil staff, yet I don't know).  Anyone who know me, would know in a moment that all my hatred toward raiding come from LoS, I am merely transferring my hate of LoS toward FoH (which they deserve on what I read about them, so all fine), which is a rather simplistic process, prolly fit me well!  The point here, is that LoS, despite all their flaws, they are prolly as dumb as I am.  They are the forgotten childs of EQ!  They would have open Hell itself to get a nod from Brad.  They awaken the Sleepers and screw the whole server and actually enjoy it a LOT.  But...LoS was always loyal to EQ.  What happen to LoS, how did they end?  I can tell you, when they lost motivation, they keep trying...they died of attrition, which is the noblest death a guild can take, they try, to the end.  Many of them are now in Township Rebellion and the core of it, they make it move back on their server, which is still loyal to EQ and will prolly never move to Vanguard.  See, when I see LoS argues and flame with "Sigil" staff, I wonder just how far and wide is FoH reaching, what is their evil agenda exactly?  LoS is naturally loyal, they can be everything you want and they are most certainly worser, but they ain't disloyal.  Loyalty is prolly the only comon ground I share with these sorry excuse of *insert as many nasty adjectives as you want* of a group of players.  FoH's agenda is leading Brad to some nasty and dark place, some place he would do better avoiding, but I can't make HIS choices; I can only advise and talk.

Haha, if I would be working at Sigil, it wouldn't be a few flamers that would worry me, but FoH.  How do you think this "hatred" was built?  I suggest that you look at FoH and try to figure their hidden agenda, you prolly know them better than me.

If I had a dollar for everytime I have been in a party heading to the bottom of some dungeon in EQ1 only to find FoH have had it camped for 3 days and plan to be there for at least as long again....

And what are the options.... join them ?? pfffft..... not likely... I dont like guilds at the best of times.

I agree with you 100% Anofayle.

---

Originally posted by gillvane1
So your theory is that WoW players feel threatened? Well, that's one theory about the haters.

Another is they are ex-SWG players, pre-NGE of course, and they are out to get SOE no matter what, because they were betrayed. How's that?

---

Or it could be the game just doesn't suit these people that posted said thoughts on VG.

I play EQ2, WoW and loved EQ1 (5 years) but that doesn't mean I like VG.

Why are people flaming?

I can tell you why i am doing it.

Because the trend of releasing UNFINISHED ,poorly coded ,uninspired, bad art games have to stop.

I dont know what is the fact. Did people simply forgot how to program and design games suddenly? Are they hireing the most unexpirienced artists and coders to cut back the costs?

How come a game today simply can not be finished in 4 years of production?

How come that a game that looks much worse than , let say FarCry (to make fair comparison) is performing tenfold worse.

Why is it so hard to make rehash of WOW/EQ2 with larger areas (cos that is what VG is) , but still manage to make it emptier and 
more boring -

And still with all this flaws the game is far from being near to finished , yet it will be released in such state.

I am flaming because game developers should see this , and understand - that I (or we) are not going to take that anymore !

Originally posted by FullMetalAlc
Many people feel betrayed. They waited for 5 years for this game to come out, hoping it would be the next EQ, the next game to make a person feel like the first time they fell down the well by accident in Befallen and had to get some level 15 to come help get your corpse or the first time you saw someone wearing rubicite armor and you had to know how/where they got it. It's the stupid little things at first, and then the gameplay and grouping. Sure you can go play progression servers but people want something new but not new in a sense, no one will ever feel like a n00b ever again but that shouldn't stop the game from trying to make us feel like one even it doesn't make us feel less jaded, it should still make an effort. There is no effort in Vanguard, it's insulting really.

Sure you can say we haven't paid a dime for this game, it's beta,etc,etc. This is where you are wrong, we have invested our time waiting and following and anticipating this game, we even gave our hopes to this game, something that is priceless. We are hurt and we are angry that we are regarded as moronic beings such as yourself who enjoy getting abused by the developers.

Originally posted by sololoco

But!!!  For some reason as can be seen here, you have lots and lots of negative feedback.  Many from the same people, over and over again.  So,  me not being a fan of WoW I begin to think maybe, just maybe those who love and play WoW (not all but some) have been threaten or should I say, they saw Vanguard as being the game to surpass WoW and now they feel an obligation to put this game down as much as they can.

.

Originally posted by swede2

Originally posted by sololoco

But!!!  For some reason as can be seen here, you have lots and lots of negative feedback.  Many from the same people, over and over again.  So,  me not being a fan of WoW I begin to think maybe, just maybe those who love and play WoW (not all but some) have been threaten or should I say, they saw Vanguard as being the game to surpass WoW and now they feel an obligation to put this game down as much as they can.

.

WOW give the man a cigar, your closer than you think Sololoco ,  except dont think of it as just maybe those who love and play WOW. Its a little more Organized than that almost like there been paid by . WOW i cant believe i just about said that sorry i cant tell you am sure you can fill in the blanks

Originally posted by swede2

Originally posted by sololoco

But!!!  For some reason as can be seen here, you have lots and lots of negative feedback.  Many from the same people, over and over again.  So,  me not being a fan of WoW I begin to think maybe, just maybe those who love and play WoW (not all but some) have been threaten or should I say, they saw Vanguard as being the game to surpass WoW and now they feel an obligation to put this game down as much as they can.

.

WOW give the man a cigar, your closer than you think Sololoco ,  except dont think of it as just maybe those who love and play WOW. Its a little more Organized than that almost like there been paid by . WOW i cant believe i just about said that sorry i cant tell you am sure you can fill in the blanks

Originally posted by solareus
I wrote a review, if you missed it it is not my problem, my short version of the review is , poop on the face , enjoy the ssmell. :D

/me taps mega phone "this thing on"

my attitude would go for any title i'm looking forward to, the simplest way to get a positivity response, build a great title.
I will be the first to let you know is Aoc is not all of what it should of been and that will go for any titles down the line, the development teams need to bring their title correctly , or just keep working on them behind closed beta doors until they feel it is solid.

SOE is the biggest mistake for this game , if sigil had any brains they would of just went for an in house digital distro ran directly from there servers into the bank, getting server hosting from one of a million proffessional hosting companies around the world. The only reason I can see this not happening is because they already knew or have a contract with soe for some many games or releases and this pile is just to fill that contract.

it is just when your playing and analying this game you sit there and say " why ? why ? why?"

Originally posted by solareus
Rappelz is on a different scale  then VSOH . Rappelz is also free to play , is VSOH going to be free to play , if so then we can make the corrections and review them side by side.

Rappelz is actually a better game then VSOH, it has less of everything VSOH in every way, thought it makes up for it in one area, FUN.

Originally posted by solareus
Rappelz is on a different scale  then VSOH . Rappelz is also free to play , is VSOH going to be free to play , if so then we can make the corrections and review them side by side.

Rappelz is actually a better game then VSOH, it has less of everything VSOH in every way, thought it makes up for it in one area, FUN.

Originally posted by Vendayn
Yup, I can think of 3, 4 maybe 5 people that I see that constantly bash the game...then I also see 1-30 post people bashing the game too, and then they never make any post afterwards. Not all 1-30 posts will be fakes, but most are.

And since he is in this thread..

Solareus seems to bash the game 24/7, which is one of the persons on my list of constant bashers to make it seem like a lot of people don't like it...

But some are for real and make a post about why they don't like it and leave it at that, but then you have people like Solareus who will do nothing else except convince others not to buy it.

Heh for all the bashers there are LOTS of people that just don't post to bash it.  We know the game speaks for itself and since it is a dull game, a lot of us don't see the need.

I love how you imply that some of the posts are "FAKE".  Are you saying that people say they hate it, but really don't? 

The game just doesn't stand up to many games already on the market, and doesn't appear to come close to some of the true Third generation MMOs coming out.