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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Why say there is no trinity?

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195 posts found
  st4t1ck

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 585

2/28/12 11:36:23 PM#21
Originally posted by Kuppa

There are still roles, but no class is "stuck" doing one role.

Roles yes, Healer, tank role no

  brac777

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 43

 
OP  2/28/12 11:38:10 PM#22
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Umm... no there is no obvious trinity or healers with added dps.

It is clear you have never read the GW2 website explaining the classes.

No I've read the marketting from the GW2 website.  Just the thing is, that what it says on the website doesn't exactly match what I see in gameplay videos.

Case in point, http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-mmorpg/dungeon-runner/

I see one guy casting out a healing turret that is keeping pretty much everyone alive.  I see one dude with a sword standing in front of monsters and hitting them, when I look at the health bars, I only generally see 1 health bar ever changing when all 5 are alive, sometimes a second health bar is changing as well. 

So there is no designated healer?  No designated tank?  Thats not what it looks like to me.

  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

2/28/12 11:39:40 PM#23
  • There are no targetable heals.
  • Everyone has a self heal, which is typically the most powerful heal available to all classes.
  • There are no threat mechanics on abilities.  Different AI treat threat differently.
  • There are no taunts.
  • Tanks can't just stand in front of the MOB.  No standard "tank and spanks".
  • The majority of "tanking" comes from using reactive abilities and dodging as well as aggro swapping.  Most MOBs threat is based primarily (but not entirely) on proximity.
  • Healing is mostly heal over time, AoE conal, or an extra effect from a DPS ability.  It's very limited by cooldowns.  No spammable heals and abilities that provide consistent healing aren't very powerful (like healing turrets).  There is only one direct heal (not counting self heals) in the game that I know of and that's Merciful Intervention from a Guardian which automatically heals (and teleports to) the lowest health target.
  • Every profession can play every role to an extent.
That said, some professions can heal better than others and some have more abilities geared for tanking.  Different weapon sets, utility skills, and traits will effect your role in a group; however you'll have to do a little bit of everything at the very least.  You'll like want to be supporting, controlling, DPSing, healing, and tanking at certain points for your party.  A guardian for example will often play a support role in a group, though they can do very good DPS also and have some great tanking abilities.  It's not that there is no trinity in Guild Wars 2, the trinity is just different than what people are used.
 
Your group will likely be more effective if nobody sits in a specific role and everyone brings at least a single support ability, though you'll still want someone as support as their primary role.  Note that this doesn't mean they won't be DPSing and swapping between roles either.  I can't say this for a fact, but the press beta dungeon runs showed lots of failing because the press was trying to play as the common Trinity.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

2/28/12 11:45:09 PM#24
Originally posted by brac777
Originally posted by st4t1ck

no one can heal you as much as your self. if people are taking a lot of damage there doing it wrong, there are no skills that give someone aggro ie taunt provoke or anything of that matter.

I have yet to watch a video where the self heal was the sole healing a person recieved in PVE.  It was more like a supplement to the healing coming from someone else. 

No, the AoE heals are the supplements.  The healing you provide for yourself is far more powerful and effective than any skill that any ally can put our for you.

From what I've seen and read, it's common to have a couple of people load group heal skills and drop them as often as they can.  But while they aren't using that single skill that offers health regen to any ally smart enough to move themselves into it's sphere of influence, those "healers" are doing damage or taking damage, or sometimes both.  The "tank", having spent himself on the alpha damage, would roll out of combat and someone else would replace him.  Maybe one of your "healers". 

For a trinity system to work, you would need dedicated roles being filled and that just doesn't happen in GW2.  Let me repeat that:  there are no dedicated roles.  Once more, with feeling: there are no dedicated roles.  The fact that I have a healing skill on my bar does not make me a healer.  Even if I spec for it, the regen support I provide will never be enough to keep a group on it's feet.  At best what it will do is provide a little buffer to take the edge off of the incoming damage.  But even then, I can't direct heal.  It's still up to the players to take advantage of the skills I put out there for them.  If they don't move into that Healing Spring, they get nothing.  And in the meantime, my job is the same as everyone else: burn down and CC mobs, rez if needed, and keep myself alive.

The only way to fit a holy trinity into that is with a shoehorn.

 

  kalinis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1444

2/28/12 11:48:07 PM#25

When they say no trinity , i think they mean that the game isnt built for the traditional roles a tank, heal and stuff did, There are no real dedicated healers, as all classes have a self heal and while u can tank, The game isnt built on the trinity rule set.

U dont have to have a dedicated tank, heals , dps to run a dungeon or a raid, Sure they have classes that can fulfill those roles but the game isnt built on players actually playing those roles, 

Its more based on all classes as utility with self heals and say a player throwing up a sheild and the rest of the party getting behind it so they dont take damage, not on one person holding threat for the entire fight dps beating it up and one person healing everyoen for the entire dungeon

I havent played it but thats the way i have taken what they have said and what ive seen in video's

ps not a gw 2 fan , i think it will be a great game thats fun to play unlike most i dont expect it to reinvent the mmo wheel, but it does do some thigns diffrent then the normal and how the roles like tank and heal are done is one of them.

  fiontar

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3713

2/28/12 11:48:46 PM#26

It makes sense that people used to playing group content with a "Tank, Spank and Heal" strategy will try to approximate the same here, but if you look at how badly some of the press got rolled in Dungeons trying to do it that way, you should realize that this game will reward, or even require, a different approach.

There is a broad trinity in GW2:

Damage, Control and Support.

Damage is damage, though GW2 offers some creative ways to deal damage, often combined with other effects that add an additional tactical layer to combat.

Control used to be a mainstay of group MMO content, but has mostly devolved into a reliance on one very specific type of control, Tanking. There are many forms of control in GW2, but while some classes can absorb more damage than others, there are no aggro control skills in the game and healing is not sufficient to allow one person to take all the damage, even if they manage to put themselves in the way of most damage. Control here is more about actually controlling the battlefield, limiting enemy mobility, taking the enemy out of the battle for short periods at a time and blocking the access of the enemy to certain bits of local terrain. All meant to give your side the advantage in tactical positioning and battle management.

Support in most MMOs has become mostly about healing with the occassional long duration buff thrown in for good measure. In GW2, everyone has at least one self healing skill at all times. While there are some skills available that heal allies, they are not meant to support massive amounts of uncountered damage. Support in GW2 involves a lot of localized or area of effect skills that provide short term buffs, (or "Boons"), debuffs, (known as "Conditions") and also offer effects that actively block, deflect or mitigate incoming damage.

It isn't rare in GW2 to have skills touch on at least two of these categories, or even all three. Also, every profession has skills and builds that allow them to be good at any of these categories. In fact, it seems like it will be difficult to design builds that are only good at one function.

Every profession is a Hybrid in GW2. Most builds will also have the versatitily to provide varying degrees of damage, control and support, based on the situation at hand. Static tactics will not benefit group play and the best players will be the ones that can bring what ever is needed to the fight, no matter what profession they happen to be playing.

There are no set in stone profession roles. There is no dominant group strategy to mimic the overwhelming reliance that most games have on the "Holy Trinity". Groups will succeed based on the ability of the players to play their professions, adapt  to changing situations and work well with others.

Tbe "Holy Trinity" may be dead in GW2, but I'm sure that will not stop many players from trying to fit that  square peg in the round hole out of habit. It won't be a good fit for most group situations and will be a startegy that signals a great waste of potential and lack of creativity and adaptability.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  nolic1

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

2/28/12 11:56:31 PM#27

I have seen that video 3 times now and not ones did I get the feeling there was a tank or healer you can see when the engineer drops the turret and then everyone stands near it but the person playing you can also see heals going off in the fight with the boss on a piller and there on a ledge and he roles off a few times having to use his own heal. You seem to not understand how this works any class can do the 3 roles there is no tank and or healer roles there is no dps types ethier you are ethier in the fight fighting or your supporting the group or your controling which is controling the mobs kinda like tanking but not debuffs stuns traps that kind of thing. If the thief wants to take over being upclose he can even take control for a bit so I the Guardian can step back to heal a little then and support him and the ranger can be supporting also and doing damage. Then the Ele can come in and drop Wall of Fire and we can attack through it using the fire as an extra damage to our own attacks. ITs a total group effort instead of person A Tank goes in agros then in a few seconds taunts then everyone runs in and starts attacking and the healer sits back and reads hot bar info. This everyone just plays and watches it all and help any way they can doing all the above.

 

 

P.S. Yeah what the guy above me said dame you did it better then me :(

 


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 561

2/28/12 11:59:04 PM#28

If healing others is as ineffective as claimed by some posters why do it at all?

By what mechanism do NPC's select targets?

You're welcome to give a specific example of NPC and support spells.

  st4t1ck

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 585

2/28/12 11:59:50 PM#29
Originally posted by brac777
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Umm... no there is no obvious trinity or healers with added dps.

It is clear you have never read the GW2 website explaining the classes.

No I've read the marketting from the GW2 website.  Just the thing is, that what it says on the website doesn't exactly match what I see in gameplay videos.

Case in point, http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-mmorpg/dungeon-runner/

I see one guy casting out a healing turret that is keeping pretty much everyone alive.  I see one dude with a sword standing in front of monsters and hitting them, when I look at the health bars, I only generally see 1 health bar ever changing when all 5 are alive, sometimes a second health bar is changing as well. 

So there is no designated healer?  No designated tank?  Thats not what it looks like to me.

If you dont believe the devs and you dont believe what we say, then why even pose the question on a forurm.  You kno better then the people who created it. and better the the countless other videos ive seen. and even in this video.

yes someone has to get hit, taking damage doesnt not equal :"Tanking" 

in the case of this video your only watching one person, Fony who is indeed using his self heal. you have to take in account collision detection, most of the stair cases and tight corridors they were fighting in the mob cant walk through whoever is in front.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

2/29/12 12:02:05 AM#30
Originally posted by rounner

If healing others is as ineffective as claimed by some posters why do it at all?

By what mechanism do NPC's select targets?

You're welcome to give a specific example of NPC and support spells.

 

wtf?

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  mugengaia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/27/04
Posts: 363

2/29/12 12:02:39 AM#31

To the OP.  You've obviously not seen enough recent vids, or haven't even got into the CBT, but no, you are wrong.  There is no trinity in this game.

There is no taunt in the game, so there is no Tank in the first place.  The mobs in GW2 switch targets all the time, especially the bosses or elites.  They don't just stand and spank one player the whole fight.  The whole Tanking aspect is also useless in GW2, because if you tank and spank, you will literally die in few seconds. 

Obviously you have no f**king idea how important dodging is in this game, because even the beefiest classes will literally melt if they tank and spank in this game.

As for the heal, I think many people have already pointed out the fact about support classes having minor heals, but you simply reject to see otherwise.  Seems more like a problem of yourself, OP, being in denial more so than actually watching more vids to understand that support heals are insignificant to the amount of health you get back from the personal heal skill. 

Have you played the game?  Yeah, thought so.  You haven't and you have no clue how the whole lack of trinity works in this game.

I personally thought it wasn't possible.  But it works in this game, because if you don't dodge, you are dead.  Dodge is an extremely crucial aspect of combat in this game, more so than what I had imagined. 

Why don't you first try tanking in this game on your own?  Then you will know you can't tank in this game, period.  After that, try playing healer in this game.  You will pull aggro and die, or you will let your whole party die while trying to dodge damage and not actually healing your party.  Hence, no actual healer exists in this game, and the best heal in this game is that heal on your hotbar.

Don't get me wrong.  The game isn't perfect.  I don't like every aspect of it.  But you just sound like another hater disguised as some BS liar.

GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month?
Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools?
MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!

  st4t1ck

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 585

2/29/12 12:02:41 AM#32
Originally posted by rounner

If healing others is as ineffective as claimed by some posters why do it at all?

By what mechanism do NPC's select targets?

You're welcome to give a specific example of NPC and support spells.

are the healing skills useless, no. they have there uses. but you cannont keep a party up by your self. you cannot effectively be a "Healer" and if you try to only be a dedicated healer you will serverly gimp your team

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

2/29/12 12:05:53 AM#33
Originally posted by brac777
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Umm... no there is no obvious trinity or healers with added dps.

It is clear you have never read the GW2 website explaining the classes.

No I've read the marketting from the GW2 website.  Just the thing is, that what it says on the website doesn't exactly match what I see in gameplay videos.

Case in point, http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-mmorpg/dungeon-runner/

I see one guy casting out a healing turret that is keeping pretty much everyone alive.  I see one dude with a sword standing in front of monsters and hitting them, when I look at the health bars, I only generally see 1 health bar ever changing when all 5 are alive, sometimes a second health bar is changing as well. 

So there is no designated healer?  No designated tank?  Thats not what it looks like to me.

 

Exactly, there is no designated healer? No designated tank?

I'm not sure what you mean by, "thats not what it looks like to me"?

You may want to watch more videos, because everybody heals, everybody fights, each with thier own skills and talents. None of which are soley dedicated to healing or tanking.

But, your welcome to try it when the game is released, I doubt it will go well, in fact Im sure your group will get wiped time after time. But who knows, maybe you can pull it off?

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8864

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

2/29/12 12:15:15 AM#34

As long as the trinnity is in peoples heads, its in the game...

 

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

2/29/12 12:19:33 AM#35
Originally posted by rounner

If healing others is as ineffective as claimed by some posters why do it at all?

By what mechanism do NPC's select targets?

You're welcome to give a specific example of NPC and support spells.

Healing isn't ineffective.  It's just not spammable direct (or even AoE) healing like in other MMOs.  It's meant to counteract AoE damage and provide a buffer for self healing and "aggro" swapping.  A single AoE heal may only heal for 100hp a tick while you and other party members have at least 4khp for example.  That doesn't mean the heal is pointless.

NPCs have different ways they select targets based on their AI.  Ranged based MOBs will select targets differently than melee, though there seems to be more to it than that.  For pretty much all the AI types the biggest factor is proximity to the NPC so you can easily swap aggro by moving into melee range while the previous "tank" moves out.  This doesn't mean you are safe, and some AI seem to target low health players, so you need to be careful about how you use skills and dodge.

A vast majority of skills in Guild Wars 2 could be categorized as support skills.  I'll name a few in Guardian.  Keep in mind there are more than this available in Guardian and every profession has tons of support skills not just Guardian:

All Symbol skills, for example:

"Symbol of Wrath"  - Symbol. Pierce the ground with a mystic symbol that damages and burns foes while granting retaliation (4s) to allies.

Every shout, for example:

"Hold the Line" - Grant protection and regeneration to allies.

Guardians also have lots of condition removal effects:

"Purge Conditions" - Purge up to 5 conditions from nearby allies and burn nearby foes.

"Martyr" - Draw conditions from nearby allies to yourself. Gain fury, might, protection, regeneration, swiftness, and vigor.

They can also block incoming projectiles including ones aimed at allies with abilities like (there are at least 3 of more of these):

"Sanctuary" - Form a protective shelter that prevents foes and projectiles from entering.

Some examples of Control skills:

"Ring of Warding"  - Create a Ring that enemies cannot cross.  Trapped enemies cannot exit the ring while it's active.

"Banish" - Launch foes with a powerful smash.  (Throws the enemy a huge distance away and knocks them down)

"Signet of Wrath" - Passive: Grants you increased condition damage.  Active: Immobilize your target.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  DJJazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/11
Posts: 2074

2/29/12 12:24:02 AM#36

Keep in mind that the regeneration boon cannot be stacked in effectiveness, only in duration. 

The whole point in the game is damage avoidance. If you rely on healing, you have already lost.

  Kyuz0o

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 82

2/29/12 12:29:50 AM#37
Originally posted by brac777

Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from.  In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro.  Hows that not a trinity?  You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking.  Am I missing something here?

Well, sure you can try to be the "designated tank or healer" but you sure as hell won`t be nearly effective enough to heal someone on your own, or keep aggro, or even survive. I´ve seen a lot of beta vids where people tried to fill those roles, but failed. People who tried to tank died like nothing and people who tried to heal weren`t able to keep someone alive on their own. So silmple as that no trinity.

  DJJazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/11
Posts: 2074

2/29/12 12:34:33 AM#38
  Kyuz0o

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 82

2/29/12 12:38:29 AM#39
Originally posted by DJJazzy

Here is someone trying to "tank" in GW2.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWe2PPOjwo&feature=player_detailpage#t=258s

Yeah I lolled when I first saw that vid, especially that part.

Lalala sure I´m the mighty guardian, I´ll tank... crash and burn within 5 seconds, now somebody say, oh his dedicated healer didn`t pay attention... please.

  sk8chalif

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/10
Posts: 598

2/29/12 12:42:10 AM#40

Very Soft Trinity


~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

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