Trending Games | Villagers and Heroes | World of Warcraft | Landmark | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,920,063 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,310,689
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Celebereg

All Posts by Celebereg

2 Pages « 1 2
37 posts found

 

PS-  I'd sure like to know who hired Erickson as a Bioware leader, and bought his nonsense.  The whole 4th Pillar Story idea was a no-show.  All we got was shallow quests as the avatar moved from one NPC stranger to another NPC stranger to get a task.  No ensemble cast, no recurring characters (and if we did have recurring characters, no stand-outs), nothing we'd expect from the charm and depth of Star Wars or any story at all.  Just one stranger to another for a task.  Really?  Pillar? 

 

The only innovation provided by TOR is Voice, and absent story - of which LOTRO by comparison has 20x more story per quest save in text - the Voice innovation is little more than an underutilized novelty that gets what it deserves - which is alot of space-baring to get past the "yada yada go do this or kill that".  What a sham, what a shame... what hacks.  Where do they find these people to run MMO projects?

 

It's almost inconceivable that when I learned years ago that I would get another chance to play a Star Wars-based MMO and about fell out of my chair, that I would be stuck with another NGE MMO (literally made by the same fools.)

 
 
Originally posted by Esquire1980

TOR was a train-wreck looking for a place to happen the minute that BioWare hired the NGE devs back on 06.  

Spot on truth.  I said the same thing the moment their names were associated with TOR, and we saw in their video diaries leading up to launch the arrogance and sacred cows that they were foisting on their future customers rather than fundamentals of MMO universes.  So, its clear these fools intended and gave us an NGE in TOR, which they probably thought "we were right with NGE in SWG, but the reason we failed was because of the baggage.  In this case, we don't have that baggage and we can now be successful with an NGE-like MMO that we always knew was the right model."

 

I have no doubt that's what these fools from SWG thought as they foisted their NGE sacred cows on TOR design.  That's exactly what we have today, and why they're now out the door and unemployed.  Unfortunately, we players continue to suffer another anemic pseudo-MMO experience in TOR.

 

You have to wonder, how so many people can continue to be so arrogant and wrong, and blow a franchise opportunity represented by Star Wars and MMO players.  

 

As I said before, Smedley (NGE) is directly responsible, Julio Torres (NGE, went on to KOTOR), Daniel Erickson (NGE, TOR) ... all of those fools who trashed a legendary MMO universe, and instead of taking responsibility for their inept leadership of the project, deflected blame on the game design complexity (lacking the original vision, the ability to manage a complex project, or having any vision as leaders otherwise) and lobotomized it.  And because those fools weren't held accountable in SWG, deflecting blame on complexity of design rather than their inability to manage the premature launch and the project itself, and were able to move on and get hired for TOR only to arrogantly apply the exact same mistakes in MMO design principles.

 

Let's hope with two strikes on two phenominal Star Wars MMO franchise opportunities and blunders, these fools are flipping burgers for a career from now on and no longer doing harm to gamers.  Yet, somehow, people like Smedley were able to deflect the blame and still hold their jobs... amazing.  To this day, I have never bought a Sony product of any kind.

 
P.S. In case anyone from Bioware or otherwise is following these things and the feedback.  I'd sure like to know who hired Erickson and gave him leadership, more Koolaid-drinkers, to allow him to postulate time and again that his NGE game was anything more than an NGE game.  That whole nonsense about Story and 4th Pillar, and then delivering a game that had zero story depth, just an avatar going from one stranger NPC to another to get a task.  No depth of story, no recurring characters, no ensemble cast... just one stranger to another.  That's not story, and certainly not a Pillar.  The only thing TOR offered as an innovation is voice, and absent depth, its just a novelty.  Games like LOTRO offered 20x the story associated with any individual quest, just in text...
 
 
P.S. In case anyone from Bioware has their eyes open to feedback, I'd sure like to know who hired Erickson and bought his nonsense after the NGE failings.  Watching all his arrogant diatribes about TOR's innovative 4th Pillar, Story, and then finding that Erickson's idea of Story is an avatar going from one stranger, NPC, to another stranger, to get a typical MMO task to accomplish, is Story innovation?  There's no depth of story, no ensemble cast, no recurring characters... nada.  Just one stranger to another to get a task.  No charm, no warmth, no Chewie or Antilles or Ackbar as examples of recurring or ensemble casts...  Frankly, LOTRO had 20x more story per quest than TOR's, just in text.  Without the depth and charm that we expect from Star Wars story, or any real story, the only innovation that TOR offers is Voice, and that becomes a novelty in its shallow Story-less execution.

I played SWG from the beginning, suffered through CU, and terminated my participation with NGE. 

 

I played SWG for years, would still be playing it today if not for horrifically inept project leadership.

 

Hate the use of Sandbox and Themepark terms as stereotypes of MMOs.  To me, an MMO is about virtual worlds, and being a world, your avatar is able to live and breathe "so-to-speak" or  "experience life" in an alternate reality.   It therefore must have depth, must have multiple dimensions of activities and progress/achievement ... a building process of accomplishment, for avatars, for activities, for guilds, for communities.  The world around you should be "built by activity" and "sustained by activity" allowing players to choose and find their individual niches from a selection of game and player-based systems and cohesively around shared or common core activities.

 

SWG gave us that, until inept leadership unwound and destroyed it.  They launched it prematurely - missing crucial content - due to a bad corporate decision.  Lacking core theme-based content, and with weak leadership and weak sustained vision, weak project leadership  and management fundamentals (including integrating and managing community feedback), the development team then was caught in catch-up mode, trying to catch up for a false start, and tripped over themselves week after week, month after month, lacking vision and reacting in an ad hoc manner, zigging and zagging in response to ad hoc criticism from players.

 

Lacking vision, they could not maintain cohesion with high level design tenets and quickly lost their way, tripped themselves and their development infrastructure, and essentially crashed and burned to the point that critical staff were gone, design was confused and breaking, they couldn't sustain the bloat of confused design elements, and they didn't know which way was up.  Complete project Leadership failure that was quickly evident and was allowed to continue for years.  Smedley owns that.

 

Instead of owning that leadership failure, they deflected and blamed the design that they broke, and sold shareholders on the need to revamp the game (and again).  CYA instead of dealing with ineffective Leaders.  Leaders were spared the embarrasment and accountability for leadership failure (not design failure, the design started out sublime), deflecting blame onto original game design inappropriately, and so we lost the greatest MMO ever built due to corporate shennanigans... Smedley at the top of the blame pyramid who somehow survived the greatest failure and injustice of the MMO genre that laid waste the creativity of the MMO's for a decade and a half so far, and let inept SWG leaders like Daniel Erickson of the NGE fame to go on and pass his sacred cows to the same effect with SWTOR with its shallow NGE-like design fundamentals.

 

A premature start and lack of effective leadership sank SWG, but there is no doubt that had they just held course to high level design tenets and caught up with missing content, I would still be playing and paying pre-CU today, and loving every minute of it.  

 

So I've been a locust, and every MMO since SWG has been something to kill time with until the next one came along, also to disappoint, and ever waiting for someone to deliver again on the promise of the MMO experience.

 
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Celebereg
Originally posted by Unshra
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
If they'd fired that arrogant asshole a long time ago, the game might have had a chance.

That makes little sense, it's like saying that if 38 Studio's fired R. A. Salvatore they might not have failed as a company. One of the few good things about SWTOR was the story so clearly Daniel Erickson did his job. However they shouldn't have allowed him to talk as he clearly doesn't understand MMO's as well as he understands writing a story.

Exactly, Talk, but making comments comes from what you think, they made the game with far to many story scenes for one thing, we buy an MMO to play and have fun, not sit there and watch umpteen hours of cut scenes, you could fly through the story driven quests and literally finish the story quite quickly, then what ? there was nothing else to keep you playing, every MMO has its "sell by date" imho, but SWTOR was a matter of hours, the game in reality was ruined before it was released.

it was a game where you were smacking the spacebar to end the cut scenes, as for quests, they were a total minority, only a small few were not boring. it was not EA that ruined the game, but the people that made it having no idea.

"it was a game where you were smacking the spacebar to end cutscenes..."

No, YOU were smacking the spacebar to end cut scenes. I know a lot of players who found the cut scenes to be amongst the strong points of the game, myself included.

And to anyone who complains about there being too many cutscenes... why buy the game then? It was very well known that this game was built around story, cutscenes and full VO... so if you don't like cutscenes in your mmos, why buy one that is known (well before release) to be chock full of them?

"as for quests, they were a total minority, only a small few were not boring."

Again, you represent this as a blanket fact experienced by all those who played TOR. And in fact, there were tons of quests in this game. So many that for many players it was virtually impossible to do all the content on a given world without out-leveling it and ending up fighting mobs 3-6 levels too low and thus too easy. But that was the fault of the leveling/XP rate BW put in place, not the quests. Hell. I often only did about 50% of the content on a given world, solely to avoid being 4-7 levels above the next planet's content by the time I got there.

"it was not EA that ruined the game, but the people that made it having no idea."

Another blanket statement. IMHO, both BW and EA played a part in hamstringing this game. What percentage of the blame each holds, I'd guess it to be 70/30 BW/EA. But to lay all the blame on one or the other solely is, imho, unrealistic.

...

Obviously, the masses who are spacebarring through a so-called story driven game BECAUSE the story component sux is very different. Critical thinking is key, learn it before you make a non-sensical statement.

As stated before, and in my TOR Forums "Definitive Issues" thread, Issue #1 - The 4th Pillar - Story - Is Crumbling.

 As stated there, the stories in TOR are among the weakest. There is no depth. There are no ensemble cast members. Story in TOR for 99% of content consists of a single character going from one Stranger NPC to another to get a task. If it were a story - it's not - it would read among the worst of the Conan the Barbarian novels. Nowhere to be seen are the ensemble casts to give it life, progression and charm that we know from Star Wars. None of Luke's Hans or Leias or Chewies, nor even the Ackbars, the Wedges, the Antilles.

Zip, nada for characters. Just going from one stranger to another stranger.

TOR A STORY DRIVEN GAME???  My goodness, what a rediculous claim. It is voice driven, I'll give you that, but as far as story goes. Word for Word. LOTRO for example had 20x the story per quest (albiet written rather than spoken) than the limited dialogue of a TOR stranger NPC assigning a task in TOR.

Like every element that Erickson touched, along with his work on NGE, was an epic exercise in MMO failure, where he sacrificed MMO traditions of player-driven content, player choices, player preferences and options for all of the above in favor of his own sacred cows in design arrogance.

As said before, on the most simplest of design tenets, I couldn't even have the flexibility to give my Twilek Jedi from Nar Shaddaa a different surname than my Human Smuggler from Coruscant. Epic failure in option, preferences, and choices logical to any real MMO. A slave to Erickson's arrogance and sacred cows, along with other notable sacred cows like faction guild/trade bifurcation that split communities and player choices, and later unraveled with Legacy that was still hamstrung with player avatars spread on diff servers by faction, and unable to take advantage of Legacy features or forthcoming HK quest lines.

I said time and again that Erickson's days were numbered, and things like strict faction bifurcation would be rescinded (enter Legacy and interfaction trade), though we're still stuck with guilds being restricted from the "option" of uniting its members avatars across factions.

If the game were truly story driven, which its not, we wouldn't be compelled to space bar through the endless drivel of talking to stranger after stranger to be given a task. We know this from the 4 other alts we leveled where we attempted to have the so-called story hold our interest, and instead were bored to death.

Get a clue. It's not EA, it's the bone-headed arrogant people who foisted their sacred cows on us and are now appropriately leaving the building - as expected.  And please kick them on their way out for all the harm they've done.

I followed SWToR for over 4 years (when it was just a roumor on the web) I read every interview and watched every youtube video. DE and James Olson wanted the game to be very different. For what ever reason (EA direction maybe) the dev team followed DE direction and ideas. James Olson would say he would like to see X and DE would say no thats not gona happen. In the end it would end up like DE said it would. DE ideas were backwards and in the box thinking. Any MMO that I see in the pipe line that DE is involved with I will question before I spend any of my money on it. I have long unsubbed from SWToR but now that he is gone I will be watching the game to see what direction it takes.

Exactly so.

"Daniel Erickson"

... slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch ...

This is the guy driving the downfall of not one, but two MMO's based on a gargantuan Star Wars franchise.

Particularly in reply to Unshra, read my "Definitive Issues" thread on SWTOR's site (easy search), where it lists all the problems with TOR and what to do about them, basically dismantling the sacred cows and poor design by MMO standards ...

... chief among them, Unshra, is Section 1, first up on the list, that the Story is a failure.  Short version - it's flat, 2-dimensional, completely lacks an ensemble cast that gave Star Wars depth and charm (no equivalent of Hans, Chewies, Ackbars, Leias, nadda) and simply has us going from stranger to stranger for a task for most of the game.  As said, LOTRO, while in print rather than voice, had at least 20x the story content with each quest.  Story a pillar of SWTOR?  Not hardly, not at all.

"Daniel Erickson"

... slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch ...

The man who brought you "NGE", the man who brought you NGE-like SWTOR; aka MMO Light, or MMO lobotomized, or MMO Unick.

Originally posted by Bleakmage
Originally posted by Hordedog
Originally posted by peanutgirl
Originally posted by Unshra
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
If they'd fired that arrogant asshole a long time ago, the game might have had a chance.

That makes little sense, it's like saying that if 38 Studio's fired R. A. Salvatore they might not have failed as a company. One of the few good things about SWTOR was the story so clearly Daniel Erickson did his job. However they shouldn't have allowed him to talk as he clearly doesn't understand MMO's as well as he understands writing a story.

Exactly, Talk, but making comments comes from what you think, they made the game with far to many story scenes for one thing, we buy an MMO to play and have fun, not sit there and watch umpteen hours of cut scenes, you could fly through the story driven quests and literally finish the story quite quickly, then what ? there was nothing else to keep you playing, every MMO has its "sell by date" imho, but SWTOR was a matter of hours, the game in reality was ruined before it was released.

it was a game where you were smacking the spacebar to end the cut scenes, as for quests, they were a total minority, only a small few were not boring. it was not EA that ruined the game, but the people that made it having no idea.

"it was a game where you were smacking the spacebar to end cutscenes..."

No, YOU were smacking the spacebar to end cut scenes. I know a lot of players who found the cut scenes to be amongst the strong points of the game, myself included.

And to anyone who complains about there being too many cutscenes... why buy the game then? It was very well known that this game was built around story, cutscenes and full VO... so if you don't like cutscenes in your mmos, why buy one that is known (well before release) to be chock full of them?

"as for quests, they were a total minority, only a small few were not boring."

Again, you represent this as a blanket fact experienced by all those who played TOR. And in fact, there were tons of quests in this game. So many that for many players it was virtually impossible to do all the content on a given world without out-leveling it and ending up fighting mobs 3-6 levels too low and thus too easy. But that was the fault of the leveling/XP rate BW put in place, not the quests. Hell. I often only did about 50% of the content on a given world, solely to avoid being 4-7 levels above the next planet's content by the time I got there.

"it was not EA that ruined the game, but the people that made it having no idea."

Another blanket statement. IMHO, both BW and EA played a part in hamstringing this game. What percentage of the blame each holds, I'd guess it to be 70/30 BW/EA. But to lay all the blame on one or the other solely is, imho, unrealistic.

Yeah, spacebarring through a story-driven game, and then saying it sucks. . .very, very bright apples indeed :D

WRONG - your simple statement falls apart.

 

Obviously, the masses who are spacebarring through a so-called story driven game BECAUSE the story component sux is very different. Critical thinking is key, learn it before you make a non-sensical statement.

As stated before, and in my TOR Forums "Definitive Issues" thread, Issue #1 - The 4th Pillar - Story - Is Crumbling.

 

As stated there, the stories in TOR are among the weakest. There is no depth. There are no ensemble cast members. Story in TOR for 99% of content consists of a single character going from one Stranger NPC to another to get a task. If it were a story - it's not - it would read among the worst of the Conan the Barbarian novels. Nowhere to be seen are the ensemble casts to give it life, progression and charm that we know from Star Wars. None of Luke's Hans or Leias or Chewies, nor even the Ackbars, the Wedges, the Antilles.

Zip, nada for characters. Just going from one stranger to another stranger.

 

TOR IS NOT A STORY DRIVEN GAME. My goodness what a rediculous claim. It is voice driven, I'll give you that, but as far as story goes. Word for Word. LOTRO for example had 20x the story per quest (albiet written rather than spoken) than the limited dialogue of a TOR stranger NPC assigning a task in TOR.

Like every element that Erickson touched, along with his work on NGE, was an epic exercise in MMO failure, where he sacrificed MMO traditions of player-driven content, player choices, player preferences and options for all of the above in favor of his own sacred cows in design arrogance.

 

As I said before, on the most simplest of design tenets, I couldn't even have the flexibility to give my Twilek Jedi from Nar Shaddaa a different surname than my Human Smuggler from Coruscant. Epic failure in option, preferences, and choices logical to any real MMO. A slave to Erickson's arrogance and sacred cows, along with other notable sacred cows like faction guild/trade bifurcation that split communities and player choices, and later unraveled with Legacy that was still hamstrung with player avatars spread on diff servers by faction, and unable to take advantage of Legacy features or forthcoming HK quest lines.

 

I said time and again that Erickson's days were numbered, and things like strict faction bifurcation would be rescinded (enter Legacy and interfaction trade), though we're still stuck with guilds being restricted from the "option" of uniting its members avatars across factions.

If the game were truly story driven, which its not, we wouldn't be compelled to space bar through the endless drivel of talking to stranger after stranger to be given a task. We know this from the 4 other alts we leveled where we attempted to have the so-called story hold our interest, and instead were bored to death.

 

Get a clue. It's not EA, it's the bone-headed arrogant people who foisted their sacred cows on us and are now appropriately leaving the building - as expected. And kick them on their way out.

 
PS. I am still smacking space bars thru what is flat and 2-dimensional story to an appauling degree. No ensemble cast or recurring characters that give a real story depth, what we have is akin to the worst Conan story of a character wandering from one stranger to the next for the next assignment. No ensemble cast to share character growth or plot progression, no equivalents of Luke's Hans or Leias or Chewies. Just one stranger to the next. A complete failure.

Game has all the components, assembled by an artless hack who predictably has left the building.
Lol Hord, you didnt say anything specific other than high level opinion. Erickson was one of the most arrogant drivers of a game strangled by his sacred cows, just as he did with NGE and repeated it here with TOR. MMO's require choices and options to give players latitude to enjoy the game in different ways. What we got was absence of choices and options, atop 6 tons of his sacred cows forced on players.

Everything from surnames to faction/guild bigurcation to Companions... all restricted by sacred cows. The entire game is on his rails with no room for options or preferences of players. MMO failure and most of that is squarely pn Erickson and nobody else, least of all EA.

The game was so HIS WAY that I couldnt even have diff surnames on a Twilek Jedi from Nar Shadda than a human Smuggler from Corriban. 1 little example.
Originally posted by mmoDAD

What I'm about to say is simply my own opinion.

THIS GUY IS A WORLD CLASS BUFFOON. He's cocky, arrogant, and completely oblivious to what sustains a MMORPG.

I remember his lame little remark to a fan (during development convention) about freedom and space exploration. Daniel's reply, "Did Han ever tell Chewie, 'Hey, let's just go fly off and dick around in space." This remark was just stupid. If he wants to play that game, when did Luke ever tell Obi-Wan, "Hey, let's go kill Vader for his pants..." or "Let's go to the Space Station and dick around on the Auction House... because there isn't anything else to do in this dead-ass game."

If this guy is on the project, I simply won't support it.

 
 
 
 
 Exactly, he was the same arrogant yoho spouting his sacred cows at TOR as he was for the NGE.  I said many times that he would exit TOR when it failed on his design misses.  Every time he opened his mouth it was sacred cows instead of sound MMO principles based on player choice and options. He couldnt even design MMO surnames rules right and we suffered over his arrogant approaches, time and again.  

 

 

Anyone who blames EA instead of these departing tools who ruined TOR's early years and exited appopriately, are missing the facts sorely.

 
Sorry saw this coming and said so more than once.  This guy spouted nothing but sacred cows that later where redesigned or proved failures due to lack of MMO fundamentals of player choice and options; from activities to faction guild/trade bifurcation to surnames... more than anyone, he's responsible for rhe situation TOR is in today.  Good riddance to a creative force behind the NGE too.

- = SANDBOX = - was never the issue.  Sandbox is synonymous to "MMO", an expectation to immerse yourself in an avatar. 

 

SWG was the best of breed for MMO.  It was however released before it and its content was ready due to corporate greed (fact), and could never catch up.  That was followed by deplorably inept project leadership, young kids, who couldn't hold a vision, hold course to the vision, and close the gaps from premature release.  Their inept leadership resulted in chaotic, shoot from the hip development responses to community shouting, that was never on course, never consistent, and ineffective.  SWG failed solely due to SOE and project team leadership.

 

Because (young) "artists" in the industry can't tell that leadership was the issue, they all assume - = SANDBOX = - was the problem, so it became an outcast in an "MMO" industry, but the joke on them is that  - = SANDBOX = - is the very nature of an MMO.  You can't have one without the other.  Build a good MMO, they will come.  Build a good MMO, it is a  - = SANDBOX = - they're one and the same.

 

The MMO should allow you to explore your avatars world environment, and engage systems like crafting, or decorating, or trade, or PvP, or raiding, or exploration, or gathering/hunting, or being a shopkeeper, or being a community leader (in game), or coordinating any variety of cooperative ventures for any of the above.  All of the things the avatar should experience and the player with it.

 

 

I don't like the word - = SANDBOX = - because in truth, as stated in my intro, it is the nature of an MMO.  Despite the lack of content, SWG was the best of breed out of the gate, and its core systems, from crafting to class design, continue to be the benchmark for which MMO's are compared (and inevitably fall short).

 

SWTOR fails and falls into the same trap as all comers since SWG.  A small segment rushes to endgame and complains, and new content is rushed out so that the small segment is kept on the rails, but meanwhile everyone else who doesn't play 80 hrs a week and make it a career falls behind the grind, and doesn't complete 90% of the first round of endgame content, never gets the satisfaction of endgame content, before they're told there's a level cap increase and you're starting off the mousewheel again before you could ever enjoy getting off the previous grind to enjoy some fully geared endgame, teamwork, and accomplishment for your avatar.  It's a mouse wheel where nobody is ever satisfied. 

 

Remove the - = THEMEPARK = - level-cap perpetuated gear grind, so that more are raid ready sooner, so that raiding and PvP is a matter of progression of class skills, teamwork, and communication to beat tough challenges - rather than gearing up, class skills, teamwork, and communication to beat tough challenges.  

 

Mitigate the reliance on gear in the equation as a gate to participation and enjoyment.  Class skills, teamwork, and communication are not only fun, but plenty to deal with for any group without needing a gear grind to gate people.  With the gear grind, we never "arrive" to enjoy and tackle content - or at least most don't.  Fail for all involved.

 

I'm still playing SWTOR, down from 4 accounts in the household to 1 account, but like every other MMO since SWG, it's a limp ride, a pseudo MMO.  A pale imitation. 

 
 
 
 
 
 
As another said, it's not whether the game supports grouping, but how it does so. Eg. How effectively. Like most things SWTOR, it does them poorly. We now have a group finder, but for most group content it doesn't facilitate grouping for quests and heroic quests. For all grouping, it doesn't upon conclusion put you back where you were when you exit the area, back to the planet you were in the location you were, as LOTRO does very well. Etc. etc.

As an MMO, TOR suffers endlessly and needlessly from design sacred cows that seriously impair game satisfaction and make it seem more the single player RPG.

Cases in point: Surname features are horribly restricted, taking players optionality away from family accounts, sibling accounts that would share names, or conversely forcing shared surnames among avatars that it should not force. I give a long list of surname situational failures in my TOR site Definitive Issues thread, search it.

Another case is GTN where their sacred cows forced us to twiddle our thumbs and stare at each other on stations as forced social and group hubs, and removed GTN's and other utilities from the planets, thereby restricting our opportunity and desire to engage in trade and other features as now too much trouble and too inconvenient... Another, like bothering to find a group for heroics without a group finder that spans planets, if it even addressed heroics at all.

Lame and broken. Our household went from 4 accounts to 1. That's the trend in subscriptions, I'm afraid. They need to address the definitive issues, and put aside the sacred cows and arrogance, and subscribe to more MMO fundamentals providing more flexibility, optionality for the myriad of an MMO's players diverse preferences.

 


The 4th Pillar is Fail



Been playing since early testing, and now I space thru all dialogue.  Why?


It's flat.  It's one-dimensional.  Other than the class story (even then) its completely flat.  Why?


Because Star Wars or any story is an ensemble cast, (Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia, Jaina, Allana, etc. etc.) the interaction of the protagonist with other characters that share the journey, and charm. 


Not in SWTOR.  In SWTOR, its an avatar moving from one stranger to another, to get the next task and a bonus to kill 15-50 mobs for extra credit.  One stranger, another stranger, it all blurs together and there's no ensemble.


The crew barely has any lines, and is a real missed opportunity.  They should have taken half the generic quests and just issued them out of the already in existence SWTOR Mission Terminals, and used the extra development time to significantly increase crew interaction during quest dialogues, and during rare companion quests.


As it is, its so dry, so boring, so flat, its like reading the worst of the Conan the Barbarian books, where he just wanders around with no supporting casts.


1.5 of 10 Points























 










 




 

I've given a lot of feedback to Bioware going back to early testing, and reading some of the threads here, am reminded of a fundamental issue I shared some time ago that I think is now biting Bioware hard with Live upon us. It's not helped with a lack of server-specific forums to help real people find good guilds.

 

The issue based on some hard truths.

1 - we're at the highest or most fundamental level human beings... People.

2 - for many, many reasons I could go on for pages about, it's quite challenging for adult players to find a good guild, a home, almost impossible.

 

Given those two truths, at the end of the day, we want to enjoy the game with nice people without hassles and drama. Good luck with that with most guilds!

 

What does Bioware do? With a game that by design, the average player will want to play many classes - if not all 8 and with diff LS DS configs it could be more? They made it so you'd not only have to search for and hassle with one guild community, and it's people and com tools, but bifurcated it into a mandatory need to find and hassle with one guild for each set of classes.

 

For adults, that is far beyond the realm of reasonableness, and only seves to bifurcate, confound, and add hassle to an already insurmountable "job" of community searches and expectations management. It's frankly absurd. Add again the lack of Search and server-specific forums for at least the short term, it's nothing short of a complete failure for human beings to successfully engage the Tor community beyond a single player game. Strategic failure.

Sorry, that's a prob with these forums and iPads.  It wasn't a wall of text when entered.  Had to hop on a real PC to fix it.

Story as a pillar? Have you ever played another MMO, Team Bioware? Every MMO I've played may not have been voiced, but line for line had more text/story per quest than the rote TOR "go do this, and get bonus quest to kill 15-50 mobs" at every stranger represented by an NPC. Lotro quests had a good 4x the volume of story associated with the typical quest, by my estimate.

 

And yes, quest-givers in TOR are strangers, every NPC is another stranger in a long list of strangers. The charm and depth of Star Wars (or any story other than perhaps Conan the Barbaian) is the ensemble cast that progresses character development and adds an environment we can engage as players in a story.

 

Here, there's no Leia, no Han, no Chewie, just one stranger after another doling out the next mundane quest. Now, they could have and could still give us that ensemble cast via our crew characters, and the rare times they speak up start to have that affect, but they are so rare as to be absent, and we're rating the game on how it is today, right? I'm sorry, but the Story element is not something TOR can claim as a strength. Voice, yes, Story, no way.

 

Aside, their customer service is in crisis mode, they don't respond anywhere near their quoted standard (24 hours), and in my multiple experiences is 3 to 5 weeks, or never. They have their forums in crisis mode, fire fighting, with Polls, Search, and even viewing your own posts disabled, providing zero value as a resource to players. They have limited forum categories, ignoring MMO 101, so that the outcome is that any posts made by players are buried on page 50 in 30 minutes regardless of which few forums you post in, including Customer Service Forum. There are no forums for servers, so finding guilds in your server is nearly impossible, and there's likewise no forums for such things as Suggestions/Feedback, Website/Forums Feedback, Companions, UI Discussion, or even Quests/Mission Discussion... A travesty of service value and competency in managing an MMO.

 

Let's talk sound for a minute. On most worlds, it's so quiet you're nodding off and all you hear is "schlop schlop" of your footsteps half the game or the buzz of a speeder the other half. Every once in a while sound blares to life during combat and it startles me awake. This lead me to load up the Tor CE soundtrack CD for the commute to the office to see what I was missing during the silence of gameplay. I kid you not, upon arriving home that evening the CD went in the garbage bin. What a colossal piece of trite commercial vapor. You'd think they'd have a fair opportunity to create some thematic music pieces to set the theme for each unique world. Nope, just trite garbage. I DL'd the soundtracks for the Homeworld game's instead, turned off in-game music so it wouldn't on rare occasions conflict with Homeworld, and gameplay during the long grinds improved quite a bit.

 

Finally, as a player for some time through testing, you just want off the theme park sometimes, and every planet/environment is just another theme park, whether on the rails of a planet or another, or space combat. For goodness sakes, an MMO can't be all theme park, it's so confining you want to scream.

Story as a pillar, Mike? Have you ever played another MMO, Mike? Every MMO I've played may not have been voiced, but line for line had more text/story per quest than the rote TOR "go do this, and get bonus quest to kill 15-50 mobs" at every stranger represented by an NPC. Lotro quests had a good 4x the volume of story associated with the typical quest, by my estimate. And yes, quest-givers in TOR are strangers, every NPC is another stranger in a long list of strangers. The charm and depth of Star Wars (or any story other than perhaps Conan the Barbaian) is the ensemble cast that progresses character development and adds an environment we can engage as players in a story. Here, there's no Leia, no Han, no Chewie, just one stranger after another doling out the next mundane quest. Now, they could have and could still give us that ensemble cast via our crew characters, and the rare times they speak up start to have that affect, but they are so rare as to be absent, and we're rating the game on how it is today, right, Mike? I'm sorry, but the Story element is not something TOR can claim as a strength. Voice, yes, Story, no way. Aside, their customer service is in crisis mode, they don't respond anywhere near their quoted standard (24 hours), and in my multiple experiences is 3 to 5 weeks, or never. They have their forums in crisis mode, fire fighting, with Polls, Search, and even viewing your own posts disabled, providing zero value as a resource to players. They have limited forum categories, ignoring MMO 101, so that the outcome is that any posts made by players are buried on page 50 in 30 minutes regardless of which few forums you post in, including Customer Service Forum. There are no forums for servers, so finding guilds in your server is nearly impossible, and there's likewise no forums for such things as Suggestions/Feedback, Website/Forums Feedback, Companions, UI Discussion, or even Quests/Mission Discussion... A travesty of service value and competency in managing an MMO. Finally, as a player for some time through testing, you just want off the theme park sometimes, and every planet/environment is just another theme park, whether on the rails of a planet or another, or space combat. For goodness sakes, an MMO can't be all theme park, it's so confining you want to scream.

Unfortunately, nothing from SOE or Sony or Schmedley will ever see another dime from me, ever.  Very seriously.  I haven't given Sony a dime since CU and NGE, technogeek that my household is, and never will - period.

2 Pages « 1 2