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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 6:43:31 PM
Originally posted by SenorHappy
And there it is in one simple sentence. you give the grouper the adequate rewards for the overhead of grouping, and now it's "forced grouping". You take away those rewards, and now it's a solo fest. And this is why just letting me see the other players health bar isn't what I've ever asked for, but what the solo player always offers. But you can group. There. It's a good grouping game! No, I'm looking for a bit more than just seeing another players health bar.
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 6:40:47 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr I also addressed this in a post above. A person who chooses to solo despite preferring to group is the architect of their own misfortune. Your example mirrors Ihmotepps earlier one; you're taking the best case scenario of the solo playstyle and holding it up for comparison against a worst case group scenario. There is nothing to prevent a grouper from pre-arranging their group play sessions, completely negating the LFG "problem". Thousands of raid guilds do it every day. I also disagree with the blanket statement that grouping is inherently more challenging than soloing. One only has to play a "pure" ranged DPS class in a group based MMO to see that this is not always the case. Standing in one spot and spamming a predetermined "maximum DPS" sequence isn't challenging, but just you try soloing a tough enemy with the same character.
Solo there is no challenge. You either have more DPS than the Mob, or it has more DPS than you. Where is the challenge you speak of? In the group situation, the "challenge" is in working together.
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 6:38:41 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr Once again, I'm forced to chastise you for using extremism and off-topic rambling to try and convey a point. In the simplest terms; you're doing group content that rewards an average of 10,000XP per hour. The developers add solo content that rewards an average of 10,000XP per hour. Your playstyle has not been changed.
Once again, I will tell you that my play style HAS been changed. I am playing the game. Any change to the rules affects me if I continue to play the game. I am subject to ALL the rules of the game, not just the ones I like or dislike.
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Originally posted by baff
The world doesn't currently have a problem with Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Jews, or any other religion. The current problem in the world is radical Islamists. They have taken the place of Communists. the fact that peoples of other religions are not perfect is irrelevant to the current world political situation involving radical Islamists. Radical Islamists are the current cause of instabilit in the world. Not Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics, Athiests, or any other religion. None of those religions are resposnsible for the world wide terrorism and instability that is caused right now by radical Islamists. When the radical Islmic terrorist threat is under control, maybe some of these issues you are raising will become important, but right now they pale in comparison to the threat of Jihadists. My point is that no one I know, supports a simple democracy. In a simple democracy, you could vote to kill someone just for fun, and if a majority voted to do it, you would do it. That would be "democracy'. Saying Iran is a "democracy" isn't saying much. A democracy without rights for discrete and insular minorities is no better than a Fascist regime, or Communism. People support democratic countries like America, and the countries of the EU, because of their rights for minorities and basic human rights, not because there is a vote. you see, if a government did not respect your human rights, I would not find that to be a valid form of government, even if there was a majority vote, and the government was a "democracy". I would fight for your human rights, unlike the government of Iran, which is a democracy, but has no value on human rights such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, due process, equal protection, and so on. Hey, the majority voted to kill all the Muslims, so we are going to do that. Would you support a government like that? it would be a "democracy".
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 4:37:45 PM
Originally posted by Torik
You are talking about what I call Power Multipliers. ie. One player does X damage. Two players acting uncoordinated will do 2X damage. However the two players when they coordinate can do 5X damage. You get a proper 5-6 man group and suddenly you are doing 100X damage. Of course this level of Power Multiplication requires some really tough mobs to fight. Mobs that are deadly to a single player will be pushovers for such a group. If you design mobs powerful enough to pose a challenge, you cannot just pop them everywhere in a leveling zone or they are gonna slaughter players left and right. The only viable choice is to put them in their own are so they do not interfere with people just passing through (unless you want to make solo players unable to step foot there). Even better you can stick them in an instance. The problem of course is the large range of Power Modifiers a group can have. A group of newbies might pull off a factor of 15X while a group of veterans might pull off 100X with the same gear and class composition. So if you want to have group content for all of them you have to scale it accordingly. That's a lot of work for leveling zones so it is usually resevered for instances and raids.
Everquest and DAoC did it on non-instanced dungeons. There is also one more thing to your equation, which I do agree with. As you level, the earlier content designed for groups now becomes soloable. you also have to design the game so the solo player cannot just become more powerful, and then just go farm gear from mobs designed to drop stuff for an entire group, or you end up with massive inflation.
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Originally posted by baff
I meant a public school. In a Private school you could dress up like jesus and carry a cross around while you teach, or wear a burqa. I'd say you are either confused about what the radical Islamists want, or you are naive and have been easily tricked by their rhetoric. What they mean by the "illegal war on Muslims" is wars preventing them from blowing shit up and forcing people to follow Sharia Law. If they didnt' do that, if they were a democracy like France, why would anyone want to do anything to them at all? Why would anyone care? The answer is, they would not. Just like know one cares about Buddhists. Be Buddhist all you want, no one cares. Why? Buddhists dont' blow people up for not worshipping Buddha and not followong Buddhist laws. They dont' do it.
There's democracy, and then there is democracy. If everyone got together and decided to kill you just because they don't like the name baff, and they voted on it, and the majority decided anyone named baff should die, guess what? That would be a democracy. Would you support a regime like that? After all, it IS a democracy. It's a simple democracy, with no protected rights for insular minorities, but nonetheless a democracy. Would you support it? Remember, it IS a democracy. If you don't support this regime, does that mean you dont' support democracy? Or does it mean, perhaps, you don't support democracies without rights for discrete and insular minorities? It's not a rhetorical question. There is a democracy. They vote to kill anyone using the screen name baff. Do you support that? There was a vote after all, which means it IS a democracy. So, you now, majority rules and all. That's your Iranian style democracy. You are right. It's a democracy. Does that mean you should support it?
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 4:21:33 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr
I ad mobs to the game that give 100x the xp of the normal mobs in the game. If you don't attack these new mobs, your experience has not changed, right? You're not affected, right? The game has not changed right? The conflict you are having is you can see clearly in this instance that the game has changed, which is why you say it's "off topic". Then, you can't explain, why if this changes the game, adding solo content does not change the game. The problem is, this example shows that any change in the game affects everyone, not just those that use the new game mechanics. If affects me because everything in a game is relative. Why is a Giant Bear a harder challenge than a Giant Wolf? It's not, unless the developers make one with more hit points, making one more powerful than the other. The only thing we can do, is measure things by what is IN the game, because nothing else mattters. What if I ad a Giant Red Wolf, and give it one more hit point than the Giant Wolf? have I changed the Giant Wolf in any way? I have. It is now less tough, because I have placed something in the game tougher, something you can use to measure the Giant Wolf in comparison to. Everything I ad to the game changes the game for everyone, becuase all things in the game are measured against each other. What are you going to measure killing magical creatures against, the real world? What are you going to measure the rate of group xp against, working at McDonald's? Do you think people play games in a vacuum, and nothing is measured or valued against anything else in the game, and all things are separate and have no meaning but unto themselves? All things in the game are related ot one another. you cannot escape this fact of game development.
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Take back Al Gore's Oscar, 2 Academy members demand in light of Climategate
Religion & Politics « General Discussion 12/04/09 4:09:20 PM
Originally posted by Jeffs
So these so-called scientists not only lied about the Global Warming hoax, but they molested little boys too? OMG!!! What will they stoop to next?
This guy said Man isn't really the cause for most of the warming. These scientists are "showing him the data":
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Originally posted by baff
Only if you insist on Sharia Law. Sharia Law goes against democracy and human rights, like freedom of religion, and equality between men and women. If you think Sharia Law should be implemented anywhere, instead of you following your own religion and letting others follow theirs, then ti's a problem for sure. If you support violence to further Sharia Law, then you are an extremist. If you personally want to follow Sharia Law, that's fine, as long as you don't force it on anyone else. For example, you want to wear a head scarf? Fine, wear one. You want to wear one to teach school or get a drivers license? No, not fine. Teachers in public schools are prohibited from wearing religious symbols. All religious symbols, a yamaka, cross, rosary beads, whatever. You can wear all the religious symbols you want to when you leave the work place. Don't like it? Don't work there. You are free to start a bakery and wear your head scarf all day long while you sell sticky buns.
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Originally posted by xpowderx
I think you're wasting your time. What, you like Joe Biden better? I'd put my efforts into something more productive, like organizing a campaign for the next election. |
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Originally posted by Plasuma!!!
In that case the opposite would be true. If my vote is the same as the masses, it will be completely paid attention to. I never said my individual opinion gets heard just by voting. I said people that vote elect representatives. People that don't vote, do not. Therefore, people that vote make policy, people that don't vote do not. If you are not making policy, why do we care what you think? It's moot. Stay home on election day. That's great. Just makes my vote count that much more.
Your vote already means nothing. I guess for you, you either go with the flow or fight the tide... some of us just prefer not to swim in a river that inevitably ends up in the ocean.
I'm not going with the flow, I AM the flow. Like I said, i think it's great you don't vote. Makes other people's votes count that much more. Believe me, we don't mind telling you what to do. What can you do about it? Nothing, you don't vote.
Another drop in the pail, then. I can protest. I can protest actively and do so regularly. When it gets to the point that my voice is ignored entirely, I will vote with my feet. I used to believe in what America stood for, but that totem is gone. Now it's just a shell hollowed by termites, and you're still worshiping it.
If you don't vote, why would anyone care if you "protest"? So you're a looney with a sign. Who cares? Leave if you want, no one is stopping you. If you vote, you make a difference. If you don't vote, but you just "protest" you're this guy:
And you're this.
You, sir, are a sheep. One of "God's" creatures - A slave of your own inhibition and willful shortsightedness.
We could go at this for hours. We each have our established stereotypes, but you prefer personal attacks to objectivity. You believe everything I say is an affront to you because you hold your beliefs so tightly, and this is why my point of view is ignored - because it is very uncomfortable and quite contradictory to the popular opinion. I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel the need to be so closed-minded.
Such is America: the self-absorbed, stagnant country.
Your argument is, I want something other people also want, therefore I can't really want it?
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:39:28 PM
Originally posted by Axehilt
that's what they are saying in effect, when they say, I can solo to the cap just as fast as you. But look, you can still group. So there you go, that's a game for everyone! Why are you complaining? Because that's not a game for everyone, it's a game where other players can join together and see each other's health bars, but the group advocates are not asking for games where they can see other players health bars. They are actually asking for good group content. Go back and read all the group vs solo threads. you'll see post after post that reads, but you can group in WoW, and I can solo. So there! You have your grouping, what more do you want? Great, you're going to let me see some other players health bars. How nice of you. The only problem is, the groupers arent' asking for that. |
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:33:27 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr We're discussing solo and group mechanics, not levelling speed. And again, you're inventing extreme hypothetical scenarios to support your point of view.
you just said game mechanics can't affect me unless I let them. Is your statement true or not? Would this game mechanic affect you are not? Only if you let it? We ad mobs to the game that give 100x the xp and now you can level to max in one week. Did this change the game or not? I add a solo option to the game, and now you can solo faster than grouping. Does this effect everyone on the server, or only solo players? Game mechanics affect everyone on the server, not just some people. Game mechanics dont' cease to exist just becuase you want to pretend you are playing a different game. I make a perma death game. If you die, your character is deleted. Now, I change it so there's not more perma death. BuT! You can still delete your character if you die. Did I change the game or not? Are you affected or not? Isn't EVERYONE on teh server affected by this change, not just the people that dont' decide to wipe their characters? |
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:29:14 PM
Originally posted by bloodaxes
What actually happens in my experience, is an average of this. If the time spent actually whacking mobs is 3-5 hours solo, and the actual time spent whacking mobs is 1.5 - 3 hours in a group for the same 1-10, then BOTH players will spend roughly 3-5 hours to get from 1-10. yes, one set, the group, spends less time actually whacking mobs. But that same set, the group, spends more time NOT whacking mobs. Rather than bore you with a dozen examples, I'll give just one. Rolling need for greed, and arguing need before greed. I need that sword. No you don't, you're a thief. Yes, but I can duel wield with that sword. Yes, but it gives the Ranger +1 to hit points, he should roll, but not you. Yes, but my cloak is worn out, and I need a new one. Nothing drops here but swords. How am I going to get a new cloak, if I don't ever get to roll? Ok, fine, you all suck, I'm not going to play in your group.....No wait, you can roll on the sword. Ok, let's roll...WTF?! I thought you were going to roll? Oh, sorry, I was reading a message from my guild...Ok, now let's roll... That is time spent NOT whacking mobs, time the solo player will never spend, unless he has a split personality and argues with himself.
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:21:27 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr Again, you're inventing extremist scenarios to support your point of view. Providing that your playstyle remains supported by the game mechanics, nothing added to game can destroy it unless you decide to destroy it for yourself.
I want a game that takes a year to max level. Now, you ad mobs that give 10x the xp, and you can make max level in a month. Is that the same game? After all, I can NOT fight any of the new mobs, and it will still take me a year to max level. Is that the same game? I say it is not. You say it is? |
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:20:01 PM
Originally posted by Torik
Actually the diffrerence between this scenatio and Ihmo's favoured 'group camping' setup is really a question of mob power. The two players in your scenario only solo the ducks becuase the ducks are soloable. The proper continiuation of your scenatio is that the two playuers finish killign the ducks and then move on to kill bears which they cannot normally solo (until a few levels later) but which give better rewards. If the next quest involves killing bears they will usually move to it together. Otherwise they will move to it if they prefer xp grinding over xp questing. The different outcomes of that scenario are not really dependant on whether a person likes to solo or group. If they did not want to group they would have never grouped for the ducks quest. The issue actually is whether they prefer doing quests or camping spawns. My problems with Ihmotep's ideas are not that he advocates grouping which (which I actually prefer) but that it advocates spawn camping sessions (which I hate).
Ok, these two posts are very insightful. The issue here, IMO, is not questing versus grinding. It's true, I prefer spawn camping to quest grinding, but that is a separate issue from grouping versus solo content. here's my issue with quest grinding. The quest stories dont' have any impact on the game world, so they dont' interest me. HOWEVER< if you insist on quest grinding, ok, fine. I'll run around and get all the quests, before killing the mobs, and then run around turning them all in, after killing the mobs. I'm not going to get any extra fun out of the running around, but it's not a deal breaker. I can scroll through the stupid text to get to the Kill X part, but why you want to make me do that, I don't know. But on to the ducks. This is EXACTLY my point. I'm NOT asking for someone to join my group, and I can see his health bar, he can see mine, and then he kills a duck while I kill a duck. THAT is WoW before the raids. BUT, let's take that a step further. I'm not even asking for a Giant Duck, that he whacks on, while I whack on the same duck. What I'm asking for, is he is going to die if I don't do my job, and I'm going to die if he doesn't do his job. And I better pay close attention to what he's doing, and vice a versa. I can't just spam heals, I need to use them wisely, only when he's low. and he can't just shoot off his best spell whenever, he needs to wait till I get aggro. And we need to watch for ads, hopefully someone can mez, and we need to not pull till the mage has more mana, and maybe two light tanks will have to switch off aggro, etc., etc. But if it's just a zerg, I don't really care if we are in a group, or running around solo. It's all the same to me. And WoW feels like a Zerg, before the raids, compared to EQ or DAoC. But, if you design grouping that way, so that it's not a zerg, it makes grouping hard. It's not just hey, jump in my group so we can do this dungeon at the end of the quest line, kthxbye. And if grouping is that hard, well, it's going to have to give you a good reward or guess what? Might as well go to solo alley because it's better than getting wiped by a bunch of incompetents. BUT, if the reward is great, well then, I can do the hard grouping, and I can put up with the incompetents. the reward will make up for that occaisional wipe.
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 3:01:16 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr Yeah, I'll admit I used say similar things myself in regard to a similar mmorpg topic but in reality it just doesn't work the way it seems like it should. I can't imagine a game trying to have EQ style grouping and WoW style soloing in the same game. There is just no way in hell that it would work out. Imagine that you took a EQ zone like Unrest with EQ rules and stuck it next to a zone with WoW style solo questing and WoW rules. Ok people, here are your choices; you can go to Unrest, go through the trouble of putting a group together and try to fight your way to a good spot. If you die you lose a big chunk of experience and have a nasty corpse run which might litterally be impossible without help. You will fight things which will absolutely gauranteed kill you unless your group is working together. Sometimes you will get adds and get caught up in insane fights which might or might not force you to run for your lives. Some of these fights will last for 10 minutes or more. And you will do all of this while dodging trains of mobs (caused by other groups running for their lives). You will do it with slow regen of mana/health (which is part of what encourages grouping and part of what makes it more challenging). Loot and experience will be slow and hard to come by. OR....you can go to the WoW zone where you will frolic along and watch mobs drop dead merely by approaching them closely. There will be no death penalty if you do somehow manage to kill yourself. No trains. No hassles. Experience will flow like the Amazon river in the rainy season. Shiney loot upgrades will fall out of the asses of every NPC you talk to. Maybe you can't see it but this just wouldn't work.
You're using exaggerated scenarios to support your point of view. We're not talking about EQ or WoW. I agree that an easy solo game squished together with a hard group game would not work. A challenging game that provided complete support to both playstyles would work.
the devil, as they say, is in the details. What's easy? What's hard? What acceptable? DaoC works for me, WoW doesn't. DAoC allowed you to solo, but it was challenging. WoW makes grouping until you get to raid level more or less pointless, not to mention the fact that the actual game play when grouped is sadly lacking compared to EQ or DAoC. If you think DAoC was fine, then we're in agreement and we could play the same game. If you think WoW is a great grouping game, then we probably need to play on different servers.
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Grouping: More than seeing other players health bars
The Pub at MMORPG.COM « General Discussion 12/04/09 2:58:23 PM
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr So, to summarise: As a soloer, I'm happy for you to enjoy challenging group content from level 1 to max. And yet, in your OP you're complaining about the attitiude of the soloers?
No, I am happy for you to enjoy solo content from level 1 to max. But not if it destroys my grouping content. The only way the two have no effect on one another is if they do not exist in the same game on the same server. You cannot ad a feature to the MMORPG that does not affect me. If you can solo, I can solo. You can't make a game where a Mob drops 10 xp and right next to it is a mob that drops 1,000 xp and then say: Look! We've made a game for BOTH the hard core and the casual gamer! The "hardcore" gamer can only choose the fight the mobs that drop 10xp and the casual player can choose to only fight the mobs that drop 1,000 xp! It's a BRILLIANT design because it caters to BOTH players in teh same game! Do you see how that might not work? Or you think that actually would be a brilliant design? |
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Originally posted by Plasuma!!!
You've been to Singapore? I've never been there, but its name is catchy. What's it like there?
It's an Island, so there are beautiful beaches. It's also a high tech center, so it's very cosmopolitan. There are business people from all over the world, very multi cultural. Temples for Buddhists, Hindus, all sorts of religions. It was one of the first times I'd ever been do a Hindu ceremony. It's kind of scary if you ask me, all those Hindu god statues like Kali holding bloody heads, fire, chanting. Very interesting. ' Overall, it reminds me of Hong Kong, only more orderly, less chaotic. there's a definite Western influence. I went to eat at a Hooter's. Yep, a Hooters in Singapore. the girls were beautiful, but the wings were terrible. Everything is frozen and flown in because it's such a small island. Also, you have to pay ridiculous amounts of money to drive a car, something like a 50,000 dollar permit. That's because it's a small island, and theres' only room for so many cars, so they auction off the permits to drive a car on the roads. it was fun, but I wouldn't put it at the top of the list of places to visit. I'd say go to Hong Kong, or Thailand instead. There's nothing on Singapore you're missing really, and it's very expensive there. If I get the chance to go back to Asia i want to go to Vietnam and Cambodia, for the history and the temples. But I think maybe Jakarta first. It's on the top of my list right now.
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Originally posted by Teala
It doesnt' take much intelligence to own a gun. This is the safety, this is the end the bullet comes out of, don't point it at anyone unless you intend to shoot them, don't shoot anyone except for self defense. Does that really sound so complicated? I don't think so. I have a concealed carry permit, and passed the safety course to get it. I have no problem with requiring people to pass a basic safety course to get their concealed carry permits. For you Teala I recommend a nice .38 revolver. Notice the hammer doesn't stick out? That's so it won't snag on anything in your purse.
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