The first hyped up WoW clone was EQ2.  Even though EQ2 released 3 weeks before WoW EQ2 completely redesigned its game in beta to copy WoW and then more so after release.  For example it stole quest directed gameplay, quest markers over npcs heads, solo play, griffon towers, the idea of catering to all playstyles, hardcore, casuals, soloers, group players and raiders and much much more. 

Release dates generally have nothing to do with actual release but are simply designed to generate sales.  Meaning those dates will always be fairly close.

Expect SWTOR out next Xmas at the earliest.  At least we should hope Xmas at the earliest.  Most games are are released 1-2 years to early and their premature release is the biggest reason for their failure ton keep subs beyond 2-3 months.

I am not sure you will be happy with either.  Both games offer super fast leveling.  In Vanguard you can get to level 50 in less than 5 days played solo as you can get to 60 in that time in WoW.  Vanguard is a great game.  It has great core mechanics of crafting, combat and classes.  I would argue the best of any MMO.  WoW has a ton more content and polish.  Vanguard has a raiding endgame that is terrible.  1 raid dungeon plus some overland raid mobs.  No new raid dungeons in over 2 years and work on any new raid content has been stopped until at least March.  The Vanguard raid content has also been watered down to almost make it pointless with the new level cap raise to 55.  Where any non skilled guild now can simply walkthru raid content.  Most veteran players have quit in disgust.   WoW has a lot more endgame raid content but it also has been watered down by the 2nd expansion.  Like Vanguard's raid content it has become easy mode.  But unlike Vanguard it has a lot more polish and content is actually tested and of a much higher quality.

I would recommend Vanguard hands down if it was being funded.  But it has a skeleton dev crew that simply is not big enough to do anything more than maintain the game.  Since SOE took over in May 2007 they have done virtually nothing except finish a few projects left over by Sigil.  It is obvious their intention is to let Vanguard wither and die on the station pass and never develop it.  Which is a shame as arguably Vanguard is the best PvE game on the market in terms of game mechanics.

Although WoW has a much better future than Vanguard and much more content given your post I think you would enjoy Vanguard more.  Leveling is fast (if you know where to go so ask around) so your not really risking much by putting in the time to level up a character.  The community is solid and the game is certainly worth playing.  But at least IMO you have to enjoy a game for what it is and not what it should be.  If you get over the fact that Vanguard will never be developed into anything close to what it could and should be then its a very enjoyable game.

99% of forum posts are made by people who don't play MMOs or just pretend to.  They have no idea what they are talking about. They join games and then quickly quit them.  They are box sale players not subscribers.  Most real MMO players do not have time to post as they are to busy playing.  Unfortunately the people that will never truly play a MMO are the ones that dominate MMO boards advocating their vision of dumb downed and simplified games.  They are professional board players.  They hype their dream game insult other posters and call people names until reality hits and they then move on to the next game.  There are no grey areas to these people.  A game is either wonderful or its the worst thing ever made.  They do not believe in middle grounds or that a game can have good and bad aspects.  They want everything quick and easy with no effort.  They always demand flash and eye candy over substance or anything that will require them to think.  Their lack of patience and memory loss are the reason why developers constantly lie to us and release  games way to early.  MMO posters are simply bad for the genre and encourage simplified poor quality games.

MMO forums where thousands of people who do not play MMO's can dictate how to dumb down MMO's and ruin the experience of people who actually play these games. 

The more group centric FF14 is the more appealing the game sounds to me.  Just the reverse for me of what the OP asked.  The more solo directed the game becomes the less likely it is I would play it.

There are 4-5 big mainstream MMO"s coming out between 2010 and 2011 that have the money to produce a quality game with content.

1.  SWTOR  They have the money to make a good MMO.  Many people do not like the solo design but all big budget MMO's will have solo content.  Bioware has promised to go with the WoW formula of having content for everyone.  Solo, group and raid.  Can they do it and make a fun quality game?  It is easier said than done.  But with the IP of Star Wars they could make a ton of money if they take their time and release a quality game witha  somewhat finished endgame.  Bioware is known for quality, polish and taking their time.  It is hard to believe they will release a bad game.  It may not be what I like or what many older MMO players want but I bet its a well done game that will do very well.

2.  FF14  They will likely be using the FF11, L2 and Aion model where they make their money from the far east market with some small revenue from the western market.  The hope here is without needing money from western gamers they will not have to dumb down and simplify the game to much to attract the ADHD brainless 18-25 year old American kiddie audience.  But then again making a  game without levels makes one wonder if the game is going the easy mode route already.

3.  Heroes of Telara  Many people say that Trion has big money behind them to make this game.  I would love to see more proof of that than a few people posting on the internet.  Some cool ideas here with being able to switch classes, a raid focused game when there are so few quality raiding games and their whole server side technology idea (believe it when they show it works).  But the bottom line is this another indie dev company talking big or do they actually have the money to develop a quality game.  They say they have been in development 3.5 years and beta is scheduled to start this fall.  Hopefully we should learn more soon.

4.  Blizzard's unnanounced new game They have been working on this game for 3+ years now.  Say what you want about Blizzard but they make quality games and released them in finished states.

5.  NCsofts unnanounced new game Some really good devs from vanguard and other games working on this game.  NCsoft wants to make a western market sci fi game. They plan on using some ideas from other games like Vanguard's crafting and diplomacy systems, Warhammer's public quest system along with a raiding focus.  They have the money to make a AAA game, the devs and some good ideas.  Supposedly they have been working on it for over 3 years now.  Which could mean we are due to hear a lot more soon or that they have had problems along the way with their ideas or financing.

Outside of those 5 possibilities I cannot think of a game in development that has the money to be a top notch mainstream game.  How many of those will actually make it to release?  3?  4?  How many will be worth playing?  Hopefully we will get 1-2 decent games out of this list.

Originally posted by denshing

Originally posted by Zippy

The OP is just another example of why PvP games will never succeed in the western market.  The majority of players who are interested in these games are simply 18-25 year old children with no patience.  They are not game players but rather they spend more time hyping and trashing games on message boards than actually playing them.  They have no patience or attention span so they want everything simple and dumbed down for them.  They want everything handed to them and will scram against having to put in any effort.  They need constant excitement and eye candy and always prefer flash over any substance.  They are the first to hype games and the first to leave when they are bored.  They unwittingly do their best to destroy MMOs for real gamers.  Aion's success will be measured in the Asian markets not the fickle western market.

 

Never thought someone would piss me off in a random post aimed at a OP I highly disagree with, but it's pretty rude to generalize 18-25 year olds as children with no patience... By your defenition, we have a bunch of kiddies going to get shot in wars. That tune doesn't exactly ring very well.

No offense to you but I would have a very hard time calling anyone under 30-35 an adult.  They might be able legally enter into contracts, drive and be killed but that does make them mature adults capable of controlling their emotions, their desires for attention, having anything close to an attention span or patience  or able to develop a sense of empathy for others.  I don't see any difference in maturity between most 15 and 25 year olds except that the 25 year old is generally louder and more obnoxious with a greater need to garner attention for himself.  Physically males brains do not mature until around age 25 where they can develop empathy.  With influences from popular culture and the general idiocy that is transmitted to these youngsters through television and the internet their path to maturity and some sort of rational thinking is likely greatly slowed. In todays culture actually having them develop any sort of empathy or understanding of anyone but themselves may not happen until they die.  I don't mean to offend as its not their fault.  Growing up and maturing is a process that takes time and something that is very hard to achieve in the environment they live in.  PvP kiddies, like the OP,  and those that spend most of their time hyping and eventually flaming games on the internet, are the worst of these children.  Completely lacking in patience and in the ability to think outside their immediate plane of existence coupled with a huge need to call attention to themselves.

The OP is just another example of why PvP games will never succeed in the western market.  The majority of players who are interested in these games are simply 18-25 year old children with no patience.  They are not game players but rather they spend more time hyping and trashing games on message boards than actually playing them.  They have no patience or attention span so they want everything simple and dumbed down for them.  They want everything handed to them and will scream, cry and whine without end against having to put in any effort.  They need constant excitement and eye candy and always prefer flash over any substance.  They are the first to hype games and the first to leave when they quickly become bored.  They unwittingly do their best to destroy MMOs for real gamers.  Aion's success will be measured in the Asian markets not the fickle western market dominated by the PvP kiddie message board thugs.

How or why would anyone trust a company as dishonest as Funcom again?  Lots of companies make bad games but none  lie or are as dishonest as Funcom.  Even if they made a fantastic fun game many people will refuse to reward a company as dishonest on Funcom simply out of principal.

Originally posted by VoIgore

Is that you commenting in the clip?

You sound a bit....hmm...maybe someone later in this thread will find a word for it :)

I think the word is young or being less diplomatic it would be juvenile.

Originally posted by Netzoko

The Unofficial "What MMO To Play" Thread!

One of the first things an MMO seeker asks if how much of a grind the game is. Below is a basic list of the newer MMOs and the time is takes to reach level cap in a hardcore setting. Casual play will be longer. It gives a comparison of the game's grind status. Keep in mind, these times are hardcore grinding.

• Lineage II (100 days)
• RuneScape (100 days)
• RF Online (65 days) 
• Archlord (60 days)
• MapleStory (60 days)
• Vanguard (35 days)
• Final Fantasy XI (35 days)
• Lord of the Rings Online (27 days)
• EverQuest 2 (25 days)
• World of Warcraft (15 days)
• Star Wars Galaxies (10 days)
• City of Heroes / Villains (6 days)
• Dark Age of Camelot (3 days)
• Guild Wars (2 days)
• Warhammer (10 days)
• Age of Conan (25 days)
• Pirates of the Burning Sea (7 days)

 

One can reach level 50 in Vanguard in less than 5 days played without ever grouping or grinding.  Solely from doing solo quests.  This has been the case now for over 2 years and before you wrote this post.

I guess it depends on your definition of fail.  Based on what I would guess would be their business model the game is already a success.  Aion is not being targetted towards the Western market like Warhammer and AoC were.  Rather Aion's business model is likely much more like Lineage and FF11s business models where they make their money from the Asian market first and foremost and only add a little extra from the western market.  With Aion's success in Asia already and the fickle nature of western PvP players the safest place to concentrate their energy is Asia with our market just being a small added profit.  The question is will they support the game better in the western market than they did with L2?

I guess it depends on your definition of fail. Aion is and will do well in Asia and my guess is the US market will not be a huge priority.  Mainly because US PvP players are fickle and will leave any PvP game very fast.  PvP players love to post on forums but for the most part they do not have the patience or maturity to play MMO's longer than a few months.  Without any real PvE endgame its almost impossible for Aion to attract more than a few hundred thousand western players. Consequently Aion while a nice polished game will never make much of a dent in the Western markets but will do very well in Asia.  But I doubt western success was ever part of Aion's business model.  I suspect they would like to do something similar to FF11;  Sell 500k to a million boxes, attract 1-200k long term subs for western players and add to the revenue they make in Asia.

The timing of Aion's release seems very good for the Western market with some big name games coming out in 1-2 years and with many gamers looking for the next new thing to tie themselves over for a year or two.  Many players memories of AoC and Warhammer's releases have faded and are ready to spend $50 again.  They have an opportunity to sell a bunch of boxes.  The problem is keeping those Subs in a game that is almost all PvP post level 25.  People will not play PvP focused endgames without PVE content.  With the one exception being DAOC.  Without a focused progression raiding endgame a few hundred thousand western subs is probably their limit.  While PvP players may dominate message boards they don't  play the games.

But in regards to saying that means Aion will fail I would strongly disagree.  They do not need any western subs to be successful.  Whatever they get in the West is just gravy for them.  I would guess their goal is to hype the game and sell a bunch of boxes, make a lot of front end money, and hope to keep a few subs and a handful of western servers open while their main focus is in Asia.

Best: EQ1, Horizons, FFXI, Vanguard.

Worst: AoC.  Nothing else close.  I thought WoW was bad but AoC made WoW look like a friendly and mature community.

You might want to consider Vanguard.  Vanguard has arguably the best core mechanics in Combat, Classes and Crafting of any MMO.  It;s weakness is the game is buggy, unfinished, unpolished and not being funded by SOE so expect almost no new content.  By unpolished I mean the game lacks direction or explanation and many players simply give up as they do not know how many of the systems work or even where to go to find the next quest hub.  Fortunately the community is very good and if you ask nicely people generally will go out of their way to help.

In terms of soloability Vanguard is very friendly solo (with the exception of the rogue class which has a very hard time soloing).  The problem for soloing for a new player is finding the quest hubs and a proper leveling path.  There are 4 areas to level for each level range and if your going to solo you will need to hop back and forth between them using the riftways.  The secret is to do as many quests as possible so you do not fall behind the quest curve always doing green and yellow quests.  If one knows where to level he can go 1-50 in 5-6 days played solo and faster for the most part than grouping.  Although your gear will suffer a bit.  But Vanguard is a lot like most new games in that it lacks challenge and you really do not need much gear to gain xp fast.  The level 20 group quest rewards will be sufficient to see you all the way to level 45 if not 50.

1-50 Vanguard is arguably the best game on the market.  the classes are wonderfully done and unique. Combat requires a bit more thought and skill than other games.  Skilled thoughtful players can really differentiate themselves from poor or average players.  The endgame is where Vanguard fails to deliver.  Raid content is limited, always released in amazingly unfinished and buggy state, and lacking in quantity.  But if your not looking to be in a guild on the cutting edge of content Vanguard's flaws are often hidden.  It is certainly a game everyone should try and play.  It is a great game for what it is.  It is to bad that SOE has failed to support it.  But then again if one does not cry for what Vanguard could have been it can be a pretty enjoyable game even in its current state.

Vanguard  has the most unique and well debveloped classes of any MMO.

The PSI is a fun and great class.

The healers are the most involved healing classes of any game.  The Bloodmage requires great skill as does the Disciple.

The tank classes require more more skill for tanking than most MMO's

The Necro while pretty weak has a pet that you can give equipment.

The Bard class is by  far the best Bard class in any game.  Allowing one to compose their own songs.

The class system in Vanguard was really well done like all the core systems.  It is just to bad SOE has dropped the ball and not developed the game and built on the fine foundation that Sigil created.

There is nothing that makes me want to log off as much as watching an ADD kiddie hopping along holding the jump key down.  I would be all for getting rid of the jump key if it means one less child.

Their chances do not look good.

It seems they are taking the Mourning, DnL approach of make their money now on pre-sales as its unlikely they will be making anything long term.  To a lesser extent one could put AoC in the same category but DnL and Mourning seem mroe appropiate  in terms of promises and being small indy devs.

They might prove me wrong but its never a  good sign when a company tries to cash in by selling beta spots rather than showing enough confidence i their product to make money on the back end.  With a long term business model based on a good reputation through word of mouth.

Assuming its a scam who do we blame?  The Devs or the fanboys that hype these games to unachievable expectations and never seem to learn that perhaps they are being deceived. 

Of mainstream games Vanguard might be the largest with actual content.  SWG would be bigger technically but most of the terrain is empty and lifeless.

Dark and lIght probably had the biggest land mass but then again it holds the title for worst game ever made.

For games in development Alganon might be what you are looking for.  Check out the maps.  The world appears to be absolutely huge.  But keep in mind its a low budget game that will likely be released with a rather small amount of content.