Originally posted by MacroHard

Are you insinuating that the majority of the MMO community are nothing more than whiny, bratty children who criticize things MMOs offer before completely understanding what it is they react to?

*O and Calvin and Hobbes rox sox.

I will second that and go so far to say a majoirty of the people who post here simply do not play MMOs.  They only play them on the forums.  They hype games up in their mind s and on the forums but once they actually play them they don't have the patience or attantion span to play a MMO.  so they quickly end up hating the game they hyped and move on to hyping another game which they will soon dislike.

These players have no idea what they want in a MMO or even how to play a MMO.  They are pretend players and they dominate these forums.  They have helped dumb down games as companies have tried to make games accessible and apealing to them.  But they don't have the attention span to last mroe than a month or two in any game.  The only thing are good for is box sales.  They help fund games so real players can actually play them.

Rift's new raid dungeon, Hammerknell,  was released in july.  5 months later in December their were only 6 guilds that had completed the dungeon beforen the Akillyos nerf along with even more HK nerfs.  It was an extremely well done and difficult raid dungeon.   Many people argue it was the hardest raid dungeon since EQ2.  Having played Vanguard, rift raiding is many time more difficult and complex.  It makes Vanguard look very much like easy mode.

But if your looking for a raiding game your options are limited.  There are only 3 supported raiding games.  Rift, EQ2 and WoW.  I guess a 4th if you count ToR but itdoes not sound like the raiding is very serious or well done at least yet.

Rift has a new 20 man raid dungeon coming out in March or April.  The question is will it be as good and difficult as HK.  HK broke a lot of casual and bad guilds.  Mty guess is it will be a bit easier but not signifigantly.  But I hope its just as difficult.  There are plenty of raiddungeons for casual and bad guilds.

It is sad to say butSkyrim has mroe content, more replayability, better quality and less buggy.  There is not a question which is a better game.  Both are single player gmes but Skyrim feels much more like a MMO.

The population has been going up now on Rift Status for about 4-5 weeks.  When the server merges happened.  The closed serevrs stayed at 1 and all the others serevrs had substantial increases.  

My guess is ToR has been doing Rift a lot of favors.  Many disatisified ToR players have suddenly found Rift looking a lot prettier.

But this last weeks increase I bet is from Rift Lite.  The previous increases since the end of Decemeber were all in addition to the trial servers.  But this weeks increase I would bet is mainly from Rift Lite.  If you look at the numbers you can see all the trial servers getting crazy bumps.  i can;'t believe those are accurate.  The rest of the servers are getting mild increases.  I would imagine thats a lot of the lite people.  I would not be surpised if Rift has actually dropped this last week.  After 4-5 straight weeks of increases it would only make sense that a number of the new people will have not stuck and likely hav dwindled a little bit.  Not  mention 1.7 just came out which likely sparked a quick jump in players which will level out the next few weeks.

My guess is the next few weeks will show a decline as  it levels out from the lite players, the returning 1.7 players and some of the ToR people move on.  But I think its fair to say the population has stabilized the last few months and seems to be on a slow rise.  Rift seems to have the model of EQ2 which is not surpising with Hartsman running the show.  EQ2 bottomed out after a bad release and dropped down close to 100k subs then slowly rose back up to over 200k by adding lots of new content and improving the games rep.  Rift has the same focus on gaining players by having a good rep.  At some point I would expect the population to start to slowly rise like EQ2 did a couple years after release. As new games fail to meet hype Rift will always be an alternative for those that relaize the grass is seldom greener.

There has not been a game with as many exploits and bugs in its endgame than ToR in quite some time.  Basically they released a completely untested and unfinished bugged endgame.  People have been exploiting it for a month now.

Originally posted by FuryV

I'm sick of Rift getting the attention & praise that it's been getting.  I like to consider myself able to tell certain aspects of a game, and literally all I found when I was playing Rift was an unbelievable amount of WoW type gameplay.  Rift just felt like a complete WoW copy, and also felt totally F2P like.

IMO, it's complete crap.

For a guy who is so good being "able to tell certain aspects of a game" you are not very good at articulating your argument or for that matter even making an argument.

But since you are unwilling or unable to make an argument let me try to make the  argument for you.  Rift is made in the traditional style of EQ1/ EQ2/ WoW and is basically the sequal to EQ2 with Hartsman running the show.  While Rifts offers activities for many different playstyles at endgame it is designed mainly as a raiding gear based game.  Many people will say they do not like theis game play as it requires them to grind gear.  But I do not understand what else they expect?  Gear to be given to people simply because they show up?  A  FPS style game where there is no gear differences?  Both are pretty unrealistic if a game wants people to keep players playing.

The second argument against Rift is its narrow design.  The 1-50 design is very narrow and limited.  WIth 2 leveling paths,fast leveling and somewhat limited content.  Hartsman addressed this many times pre-release when he said a game develeper has 2 choices to go "big" or go "small."  One can go big like in Vanguard and have lots of horizintal content 1-50 but content will be not be polished and the quality will be poor because there simply is not the time or the money for any game to go big and offer polish and quality.  Unless you have a budget the size of ToR and we can see how that turned out.  Trion decided to focus their game on endgame not the journey. They spent their resources on developing a polished, tested and finished endgame at release.  Which they did quite well releasing 10 level 50 dungeons one raid along with 2 other raids to be released a month after release.   The endgame was tested for 6 months prior to release.

The problem with wanting more is a designer is limited in time and money they can only offer so much at release.  To make a bigger game one would have sacrifice a lot.

The Third argument against Rift is its not a sandbox.  Its a valid argument.  Freedom is limited.  There is no construction. no building no open world elements.  While I do not think a AAA Sandbox can be made and be released with quality and polish I do believe there is a strong demand for one.  The problem is people do not have the patience or understanding to wait around for a compnay to finish one. Essentially a sandbox game will be released half finished and people will leave and it will never get finished.  Which is why we only see independent cheap sanbox games.  Who do you blame?  I blame the players.  I certainly do not blame Trion.  Why invest $50 million into a game they may like but that will likely lose them money.

There is not reason anyone has to like Rift.  Its a fine game for what it is a raiding game.  It is one of 3 supported raiding games on the market with EQ2 and WoW being the other two.  Tor will likely be a 4th but at this point it does not seem to be a serious raiding game.  Rift has a very loyal, stable  and happy player base.  If one does not like to raid then I can see Rift losing a lot of its appeal.   Thats fine.  But for what it is its a fine game and very well made.

Originally posted by sardonespa

So, bottom line is - playing for the 1-20 free game is a waste of time?

 

No problem.  Thanks for saving me the trouble.

As a sode note, in Turbine's DDO and LOTRO,  there is basically nothing you cant do on F2P..albeit requires a lot of grinding to earn DDO points to buy the additional content.  Nonetheless, THAT is the F2P model games like WoW and RIFT should follow.

IMHO,

Sardo

Whether or not its a waste of time depends on what you are looking for. if your looking for a F2P game then maybe it is.  If you are  potentially looking at subscribing then its a good idea.   The 1-20 trial is a marketing program that is designed to give people a taste of the game in hope they will subscribe.

In terms of content 1-20 is less than 1% of the total content.  Rift is a game that is about endgame not the journey.  I know very few people in game who have less than 50 days played.  1-20 takes 2-10 hours.  Now you can reach 20 try out different souls, run the two dungeons, chat with people and even accumulate wealth (assuming there is no cap on what you can earn).  One can make a lot of money collecting and selling artifacts in Freemarch and Silverwood.  If you have friends its a good way to stay in contact.

Regardless best of luck.

Dwarf Area in EQ1.   I loved the chessboard. It was such a dangerous and unfrogving starter zone.  I don't recall if that haunted area in the teens was still in the same zone.  But I loved that place as well.  At release it was hard not to fall in love with EQ1.  Suhc an amazing and scary world.

Gnome area in WoW -  The first game to really offer fun content at low levels.  Until WoW people always said wait until level 20 then the game will be fun.  I loved the foot prints in the snow.

Dwarf Area in Vanguard -  The Dwarf city was simply amazing.  Especially considering most people would never see it except as a low level Dwarf.  Some of the 14 or starter areas were quite hit and miss in terms of quality.  But the Dwarf area was my favorite.

SWTOR  I am not a fan of Tor but I thought the starting areas were well done.  Mainly because of the story.

Tortage - AoC -  IMO one of the worst games ever released.  A complete sham of a game.  But Tortage was well done.  Its to bad the rest of the game was completely unfinished.

Rift -  Both starter zones.  Both Freemarch and Silverwood are extremely well done starter zones.  Offering exploration, tons of quests, a starter dungeon, capital city and much more.

The Shire -LORO -  Just a wonderful zone if you like hobbits.  It really brought the books to life to me.  There were lots of the characters from the books, buildings and some amazing views.  If one grew up reading the books its almost a must to play lotro to expereince the Shire.

[quote]At level 5, my character is a “Duelist” with six points in both Finesse and Might.  You can spread the wealth to all trees, or focus on one, or just two.[/quote]

Grats on leve 5 Bill.  Is that the highest you ever gotten in any game?  I am always amazed how you can write so much about a game you only play for 30 minutes.  Nice job again, that is a special talent. But one day I would love to see you actually play one of these games you pretend to write about.

You are forgetting AO.  Your title should be "Fool me twice, Shame on me, Fool me a third time and I am a complete idiot,"

Remember before AoC's release Funcom said hey don't worry we have learned our lesson from AO.  It turns out the only lessons they learned from AO's release was to hide the game from potential players prior to release and to lie to their beta testers saying the game they were playing is way behind the build they would be releasing along with a long list of promised features they knew would neve be in at close to release.

Now Funcom is saying hey we learned our lesson from AoC.  We won't make that mistake again.  Which makes me wonder what new way have they learned to lie and steal peoples money.  It should be quite entertaining to watch this upcoming disaster unfold.  I am sure they will hire and pay someone to post their spin on these forums like they did with AoC.  Cough cough AmazingAvery maybe you need work again.  I am sure the fanboys will come out doing their best DnL impression and defend the game as the greatest game ever made and call everyone vile names who dare to question their undying faith.  TSW has all the makings of a great  horror film ready to unfold before our eyes.  I have my popcorn.

The game was already made for the ultra casual non MMO player.  How much easier can they make it?  I don't think its possible to dumb it down even more.

The first WoW clone actually released 2 weeks prior to WoW releasing.  It was EQ2 which completely redesigned its game in beta to copy WoW's quest directed gameplay. 

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by Pintaphilly

Im enjoying the game so..... yeah..... a lot of the problems you guys list, i haven't experienced at all. And most of them are shared with other MMOs. You guys expect WAAAAY TOO MUCH from MMOs, get a sense of god damn reality for once. SWTOR is a great game (I played both WoW and Rift, raided hardcore in both). IF you did your research, your expectations wouldn't be as exaggerated as it was. DO YOUR FUCKING RESEARCH! I knew what to expect from the game, and enjoy it greatly. 

Not to mention, these type of threads pop up FOR EVERY SINGLE MMO when they get released. Can you see the pattern? Nothing new here, just the same old whining from idiots who expect too much from MMOs.

 

I keep seeing random dudes posting how bad this game is and really wait to see them post what game they are actually PLAYING so we have a point of reference . But no one does. 

It would increase my laugh factor by a 100 when someone posted " Game is bland , boring compared to WoW or Darkfall  or Guid Wars that I currently play . " 

Or at least tell us that they don't really play ANY MMO , and they just wait for the next big one that will blow us away . 

I read these posts and seriously wonder if these people have ever understood how an MMO works . 

This random dude bought two Deluxe copies of the game - one for myself and for my wife. My wife said the game sucked by level 15...I got to level 50 and realized that BW spent all of it's money on VO and forgot to add the game. Hamster wheel grinding Raids and broken PVP for gear is the same crap that's been churned out for the last 7 years

300 Mil and BW and EA couldn't even release the game with a UI you could move or other basic features you would expect from ANY new MMO. BW's answer to end game content is to roll an Alt if you're bored. LOL

Fact is SWTOR is a single player game being sold as an MMO - plain and simple. So I packed up and went back to EQ2 - an old but very solid, fun game and will be there until the "next big game" happens.

We should all expect more from these companies and you should see a trememdous drop in subs over the next couple of months when slower players start figuring out there's no game after 50 either :)

It has a traditional EQ/WoW/EQ2/Rift raid endgame but its an untested poorly done very buggy endgame.  I have no idea why anyone would want to bang thier heads against the wall playing ToR's endgame when there are much better and more developed versions of  it in EQ2, Rift and WoW. Not to mention the audience that Tor has targetted is very casual meaning it will be very hard to sell them on any difficult endgame raiding.  Very few top raiding guilds have commited to ToR and I doubt any will.  They will stay in EQ2/Rift and WoW where they know the quality and difficulty of the raid content will be much superior.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

So many of you complain about MMO's now days having fast leveling. But you refuse to play Asian MMO because of the slow level grind.

I am kind of confused about this. the community that ask for these slow leveling MMO, simply wont play Asian MMO which have a much slower leveling pace, because of the fact it has a slow leveling pace.

so what is it, you really want?
L2-----> Aion
AoC had a grind early on. but people complained... again,, what is it you want from the leveling speed? Is there a balance of being too fast and too slow? if so, what is this perfect standard?

AoC had super fast leveling.  people were level 80 on the 2nd day of playing.  It required non stop grinding molbs in zones that had no quest.  But the leveling was super fast.  The only thing that slowed people down in AoC was the game was unfinished and did not have many quests in high level zones.

Originally posted by revy66

Originally posted by Herodes

This thread is pure win, I am still laughing my ass off... while waiting for the login servers to be resurrected.

My first attempt to play a P2P game pre release since 500 years, and what happened?
No hate towards the devs, I just should have known better.

I guess Trion and ToR spoiled us. Not sure about Tor though.

 

I clearly remember both Rift and Tor having server problems in the first beta weekend.

I would not say Tor.  Tor's closed beta was pretty bad.  No dev communinication and the servers would go down for 2 weeks with no word on when they would come back upop other than soon.  Trion in their beta which they called Alpha  had great communication and interaction with the testers.  It was stable and polsihed from day 1 and  I don't recall them ever taking the server down.  In most games devs look down on players and treat them like dispoable objects.  But not Trion.  Absolutely the friendliest and most respectful devs I have ever met.  I like Rift quite a bit but even if I hated it I would probably sub just because of the way Trion treats people with respect.

Originally posted by Professor78

I am always quite suprised that many complaints are about starting areas, lack of ect...

Oddly enough this is probably where less than half a % of all online game time is spent - the levelling up phase! (I am sure somebody will find a actualy stat there somewhere)

So why would developers go all out on starting areas. But to be honest its a shame, as this is where it will drag new players in.

MMORPG's are all about endgame - if you don't like the lack of levelling up paths and choice, I do think you are in the wrong genre. - And this is my own personal.

Research shows that most players quit a game before level 7 which places a greta importance on the starting areas.  The idea simply is to keep them playing long enough to get them actually playing the game.  It is sad but MMOs need to cater to the ultra casual to pay many of the bills.

Trion spent a good dela of time on the start areas completely redoing the starter areas during Alpha.  They are kuch improved from the intial version.

But yes I do agree with you 99% of all time spent is at endgame and that is where Rift delivers very well.  Rift was made for endgame not the journey.  1-50 is so short I have seen players to do it in less than 30 hours played.  Trion packed a ton of content into endgame at release and tested their endgame content for 6months prior to release.  They have been kicking out roe and its very good.  Rift is mainly a raiding game.  In a sense its the sequel of EQ2.  If you do not like to raid it may not be the game for you.  It offers plenty of other activities post 50 but raiding is where it excels.

Best Foundation for a unsupported game:  Vanguard

Best Supported Game:  Rift

Sadly the game has been dead for 3-4 years.  No full time devs means no content.  SOE pulled the plug when they bought the game and has just left it to wither and die.  They only bought it to reduce the risk to EQ2 and to use it as  a marketing tool for EQ2 even though Vanguard was a much better game.

Yes the release was rough but if they invested any money intot he game it could have bounced back like EQ2.  the problem with that is it would have taken money away from EQ2 and the investors who out money into EQ2.

SOE is simply evil.  They kill and destroy games.  Vanguard arguably had more potential and a better foundation than any MMO ever released.  It just needed to be developed. So sad.

Originally posted by Volgore

Now compare that with Rift, just approximately. Level 20 in Rift is like you've seen say 1/3 of the whole game. Free to 20 in Rift is almost like 1/3 F2P.

 

Level 1-20 takes 5 hours of gameplay.  Almost everyone I know in Rift has 50+ days played by now.  Thats over 1000 hours of gameplay.  Level 1-20 is not even 1% of gameplay.  It is just the starter zone Freemarch or Silverwood.

It is simply marketing.  Trion believes a high percentage of people that try the game will like it and subscribe.  It may be free but they plan to make money on it. Trion cntinues to invest in the game and push out content.  They do not do this on a whim but because they believe the game has a future so they keep investing in the game.  Unlike most all failed releases they put their money back into the game.  They are hiring people where all new games cut staff to barebone levels.  They are kicking out new content.  This is No Vanguard, AoC or Warhammer where the developers ran and hid with their box sale money a month after releae.

Originally posted by DaRoamer

Originally posted by Clocksimus

Originally posted by DaRoamer

Originally posted by Clocksimus

Originally posted by nyxium

Some of those subs are actually on free / trial month, I will be interested in retention figure 2 or 3 financial quarters from now.

You can not log into SWTOR witout setting up a sub therefore anyone that has ever tried the game counts towards thier 1.7million "active subs".  Welcome to marketing.... 

Then why didn't they list the active subs at over 2 million?  Welcome to logic.

Because a bought box doesn't log into the game an enter a credit card by itself.  There are countless reasons why boxes were bought for games but never used.  If you think every game ever bought was bought so some teen could rush home to play it you are rather naive.

You think there are over 300,000 people who bought the game who haven't played it yet?  And I'm being naive?

It could be cancelled orders that played in the pre-release period and returns of purchased boxes.  Tor is a very polarizing game.  As many that seem to like it hate it.  There are few people that are middle ground.