Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by Gorilla

u can skim look for lengthier posts with paragraphs, decent grammar etc. The truth is out there and its kind of ugly.

 

Is that why all the major reviews say the game is good? Or the fact the game is continually sold out? Or why the official forums have more people online than the whole of mmorpg.com put together and are still growing by 5K/week?

 

The truth is only ugly if you were incredibly naive & unrealistic from the start.

 

continually sold out? Sir I must call you out on a statement that misleading. The truth of the matter is DF has staggered its release because regardless of the AI bots they said they had testing it,  it wasnt ever stress tested properly.

As far as having more people on their site than this one, well when I logged in today I saw at the top of the MMORPG.COM page that it has well over a million members.

And growing by 5k a week is also a misnomer as again, with a staggered paid beta model theyre going for, they really limited access.

The truth is ugly, so ugly in fact that you, like most hurting fans, twisted the truth to fit your argument.

 

so you agree they are continually sold out? that, sir, is a factually correct statement. yes we all know the initial release was small by today's standards but then so was their devel budget. regardless, they ARE sold out, get over it.

also i said "the official forums have more people online than the whole of mmorpg.com" - here's a clue - the key word was ONLINE, which as of now is 212 members + 1200 guests ONLINE. as of right now, DF official forums have 3667 (1392 members and 2275 guests) ONLINE, more than double the whole of mmorpg.com.

as for 5K/week, in late Oct 2008, prior to beta announcement, there were 70K members on the DF forums, now there is over 360K. that's 290K new accounts in 5 months, or 60K new accounts per month on average, which is an average of 12-15K new accounts per week. The actual observed rate has been a sustained 5K+ per week for at least the last 2 months i have been tracking the numbers. fact is, there is massive demand for the game.

 

as for the truth being ugly -- the real truth is that DF is doing really really well looking at the numbers. there are also plenty of good quality reviews around that verify the game is in fact, also good, which it is. Darkfall is more than fine.

 

Don't play with numbers, I'm one of the 290K official forums members, i was really interested in the game. After the release (or paid beta as you prefere) i decided this game it's not for me. I do to know of others like me, be sure not the 290K are trying to buy the game. How many? I don't know... you neither as far as you are not working for AV or got some spies there.

Anyway you can call the demand as massive if you want. Really, what is massive? its massive considered in the actual total market of MMORPGs? sure not.  Its massive considered the potential demand for FFA PvP full loot sandboxes? may be, but my guess is not. I know of a lot of people that will enjoy a game like this, that has been waiting long for a game like this, but right now they still are in the fence and waiting for free trial or back to L2, EVE, Shadowbane ...

Dune

Song of Ice and Fire

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by pencilrick

To the OP's wishlist , especially the part about wanting a "story", I suggest not an MMO but a book.

Now, hear me out, I am serious.  Story-driven players would best be served by a good fantasy novel that lays out all the narrative in linear fashion just like they want.  No keyboard or carpal tunnel problems, they can just sit back and read.  Books have better storylines than anything devs put in anyway, at least the better fantasy novels.

I really think my advice is sound, because for players that just have to have things laid out for them and have to follow some plotline, a wide open MMO world will not be to their liking.  Let these players have books and their fixed storylines instead; I think the players (readers?) will be happier.

 

The story is just a part of the game amongst a lot of other things you cannot experience reading a book. I’m an avid reader of novels and other type of books but for me its clearly different activity and experience than playing a game.

You read the book, you can get immersed in the book’s story in its real or fictional world but you play the game it’s not the same.
May be it has to be with how you approach the game, I know from friends that play MMOs that there are very opposite different approaches.

In one end you will get people looking for pure competition against other players or against the challenges the game could have and don’t care at all about lore, ambience, stories to follow. They are the kind of players that rush to the level cap, that rush to get the first kill, that rush to build the first castle or win the biggest battle.

At the other end you will find the roleplayers, they use the MMO just as a tool, they care about all the things the other don’t care, lore, environment, stories are an important part of the MMOs, they are normally great readers that look in an MMO for a way to write their own stories and to challenge their friends in a different ways than the others. In between these extremes you will find all the variety of visions you can imagine.

Please don’t try to make our games poorer than they are right now. And think if it is deserved to be considered: at the end reading a book, although it’s always a way to grown, it’s a passive and individual activity while MMOs are an active and collective experience (well at least a cooperative activity in most cases).
 

 

Well, the point I am making is that "story", not "backstory" which is fine, can sometimes lead to game design that is very forced and linear, making a player feel that the dev's are railroading them down a path.

Ex.  "Storyline"

Player follows, in order, a bunch of cutscene-type quests which lead to an instanced encounter with the witchking.

Ex.  "Backstory"

Player can learn through talking to NPC's or other players that there is a badass keep in the desert occupied by a very uber witch king that drops great gear, and the player can venture there at his or her own volition, with no guarantees of success.

I don't know about you, but I like freedom of choice (not freedom of result; results can be variable) in my gaming.  I cannot stand a game that forces contrived linear gameplay on me.  Therefore I "wince" whenever I hear players on these forums asking for more "storyline".  I guess I'm thinking of the part of the storyline that starts now and projects into the future.  I can do with out that, but am just fine with "backstory" up to the present moment.

I like freedom of choice too. Stories to follow in game, as far as they are not forced to be played, is what i was thinking about, more than the lore or background story. Really i dont see a big difference in game play in the examples you put in your post (except for the instanced part, that is not mandatory in a story line) for me the real difference will come if the gear  the witchking drops is a must for your avatar to be successful, if it happens you have no freedom doesn't matter if the encounter is leaded by an interesting story or just by a poorer talk with a random NPC. If it not happens you are free both ways.

Anyway i agree with you that forced linear game play is something i'm not going to enjoy in my game. But having more elements to play with its a pro for me, and long and hard quests story driven with good rewars i'm sure i'll love in my game. May be i could expend a week doing it and just go out to grind or hunt enemies the week after.

Originally posted by pencilrick

To the OP's wishlist , especially the part about wanting a "story", I suggest not an MMO but a book.

Now, hear me out, I am serious.  Story-driven players would best be served by a good fantasy novel that lays out all the narrative in linear fashion just like they want.  No keyboard or carpal tunnel problems, they can just sit back and read.  Books have better storylines than anything devs put in anyway, at least the better fantasy novels.

I really think my advice is sound, because for players that just have to have things laid out for them and have to follow some plotline, a wide open MMO world will not be to their liking.  Let these players have books and their fixed storylines instead; I think the players (readers?) will be happier.

The story is just a part of the game amongst a lot of other things you cannot experience reading a book. I’m an avid reader of novels and other type of books but for me its clearly different activity and experience than playing a game.

You read the book, you can get immersed in the book’s story in its real or fictional world but you play the game it’s not the same.
May be it has to be with how you approach the game, I know from friends that play MMOs that there are very opposite different approaches.

In one end you will get people looking for pure competition against other players or against the challenges the game could have and don’t care at all about lore, ambience, stories to follow. They are the kind of players that rush to the level cap, that rush to get the first kill, that rush to build the first castle or win the biggest battle.

At the other end you will find the roleplayers, they use the MMO just as a tool, they care about all the things the other don’t care, lore, environment, stories are an important part of the MMOs, they are normally great readers that look in an MMO for a way to write their own stories and to challenge their friends in a different ways than the others. In between these extremes you will find all the variety of visions you can imagine.

Please don’t try to make our games poorer than they are right now. And think if it is deserved to be considered: at the end reading a book, although it’s always a way to grown, it’s a passive and individual activity while MMOs are an active and collective experience (well at least a cooperative activity in most cases).
 

I agree more or less with what you said being in my MMORPG utopia. But not all, not at the same level of importance.
Your points 2, 4, 5, 6 are near to top in my utopia, but just near not at the top.

For my utopia, if you allow me, I’ll change your points 1 and 3 in something more generic and say a very well done art direction according to the lore of the game that could look luxurious or frightening making for a world filled with life and mystery with a really high degree of customization available both appearance and functional (classes/skills, professions, items functionality and so) aspects. This will be at same place that the other points.

I will add another point at same level. My MMORPG have to have plenty or RP tools and enforce at least a minimum of light RP in public channels.

Finally and before I’m going to my most important points, I’m not able to see how a MMORP can avoid the grinding in one or other shape. I think, may be I’m wrong, the grind it’s in its own nature.May be if the customers can pay for a very big team of good professionals trying to win the run against players. Delivering new interesting content before the players exhausted the previous content. I think nowadays it is far beyond the utopia.

Anyway my utopia starts with a collective oriented game, full of team competition, not a solo game played in company. The goals have to be collective. The game has to reward the team work over the individuals.

Although I can imagine a PvE oriented game with this characteristic I think it will never reach the level of interest (to me) than an open PvP world, group oriented and with rules and consequences (both rewards and penalties) well designed.

The game has to make a great place for politics, economy, and power war. I know it’s not everyone tastes but it’s what I will love in my game. Of course it has to have challenging and rewarding PvE but I don’t like too much the instancing then probably in my utopia you will need several times to win your right to attempt the Big Worm.

Finally at same level in the top of my list than the point before my game has to be developed accordingly to the technical possibilities available, not in the edge, playable by any average computer at the moment of the launch in good settings but with a reasonable level. I don’t want my game looks and performs as a piece of museum in the name of the game play.

Of course it has to be delivered polished and finished (with the content advertised at launch): I’m very disappointed with the MMORPGs community about accepting half done games full of bugs, missing a lot of the features advertised. Really we got what we deserve; we need to change if we want better experiences in the future.

I could have come with things that random generating quests and spawns. Long events run by the live team like a menace against the lands owned by the players or anything but again probably far ahead of the utopia. Anyway to dream its not bad, may be in the future.
 

Originally posted by robbykl1415

So what games do you think has a good community?

I personally think that FFXI had the best community I ever played in.

And to tell the truth Lineage 2 most likely the worst.

But than again I havent played L2 that long.

May be i was lucky but after almost 4 years of playing it i'm sure was the community or at least a big share of the whole community one of the main reasons that keep me playing L2 all this time. (NCSoft US server).

But as I said before L2 is a clan game oriented. I guess is very difficult to play L2 alone like you are doing and i don't see to much sense on doing it. Really I think NCSoft set up the Academies to help new players to get in game and reward in some way clans running them.

Probably i just have found a couple of other comunities i liked the same or more, AC2 (EU server) and LOTRO (EU Server).

Originally posted by robbykl1415

You know I don't think enuff people put enuff emphasis on community in a MMO.

For  me community can make or break a game, and next to gameplay and graphics it is the third factor that I look for in a game.

Idk, I'm on the MMO rebound right now and looking for a game with all the above.  I'v been playing Lineage 2 and the graphics and gameplay are great I love em but the community just freaks it up for me honestly.

I hate the ppl in it and I can run around for hours without talking to anyone or anything.  I know get into a good clan and the game is a lot better but I just don't like that.

Ok so here is my question to you.

I want game good graphics, good gameplay, and a good community, whatcha got?

I was think maybe EvE but I don't know, how is the community in that one cause the lreaning curve in EvE is huge I'v heard......

Idk, give me some suggestions and your thoughts on community in MMO's.

If you dont like it, Lineage 2 is not for you. This game is about clans.

On the subjet: Community is an important part of the game but for me is more about the people i play with than the whole community of the game.

nvm

I beta tested AoC and played 2 months after launch and gave up. AoC is an instanced world that makes for a very diferent dynamics on politics and power war than a open world. Its not my taste thats the main reason i left it. It was the biggest dissapointment i got in all the time playing MMORPGS.

Darkfall is open in that sense but i think it's still a game that needs a lot of improuvement, will see in several months how it evolves. I'm not going to risk another frustration like in AoC.

At current moment both games don't reach to get the level i want for my MMORPG. I know it is just me.

Originally posted by Thenarius

It's probably the only MMO that I still enjoy. However, it's run by NCSoft(who enjoy to keep a game well-made for 6 months, then completely fergot about it because they are making a new one)

I could understand you blame NCSoft for the bots and RMT but forgetting the game?.

You got a free expansion more or less each half a year with no fail. Some were bigger than others but allways significant in terms of game play. Nothing to do the game when i left with the game at launch.

If you are talking about marketing and so, really they did almost nothing in the western market but it has been that way since the launch.

I have been following Darkfall since few years ago. It looked promising but i got some doubts. Now the doubts faded at least for some time. I'm not going to play Darkfall, not in the next months.

Right now i see it like a big map fantasy FPS not a MMORPG.

May be i'm wrong because i have not played it, but got enough with the information coming from the fanbois, really Id on't need to read the negative comments and reviews to reach the conclusion it is not a game for me, at least not in its current state.

I don't know if it is gonna fail, its the onlly one that some style of gamers have for play, i think they will be playing it doesn't matter how well done it is.

Its a no sense to ask if DFO will be a WoW killer. They run in very different categories. WoW looking succesfully for a whide span of customers. DFO looking for a niche market we will see if successfully or not.

You will win the "fanboi" of the month in a questions of few minutes.

Daarco post

"The thing comes down to this: If you are intersted in a sandbox MMO with FPS realtime combat, FFAPvP and full loot, empire building, naval combat and mounted combat, skill based.....then we only have DF right now. Its not perfect, but its all we got.

"

While i have silently disagreed with your coments a lot of times. I think the above post is the best and most mature resume of the feelings of the Darkfall true followers in all the time i have been around.

Sincerelly hope you enjoy it.

Edit: Just fixed a wrong wording

Lineage II with no doubt.

After one year out i'm still tempted once a week to go back there.  

I was playing Lineage 2 since the open beta till one year ago with some back and forth. I don’t have any problem to recognize that bots and RMT have a significant impact on gameplay. That’s true and you need to learn how to live with it to enjoy the game.

It’s not a game for everyone; I think is a game for few to enjoy.
The grind to the high levels last long (I heard they softened the start) and risk is present always.

Death penalty is harsh, you loose experience the most valuable thing in the Lands of Aden because is hard and long to get it, and you can de-level. I can’t avoid a smile when I see people talking about risk and rewards when they are talking about to loose crap you can get back in short in other games (hope no followers of Darkfall around, I know I will be flamed and named as an official troll) .

I always doubt about to recommend it to people if they have no friends in game to help to get started.

There is no end game in the meaning this words have in WoW. There are big bosses but you aren’t able to go raid each day, because respawns, number of players available and the competition with other clans, especially farmer clans. Anyway PvE is just a tool to advance in game, its fun if you like classic group play.
But Lineage 2 is totally oriented to open PvP game and to the clans/alliances competition, the end game, the fun comes from the politics, clan wars, sieges, the spontaneous PvP that is always ready to start just for a raid boss or a grinding zone competition or few bad words or anything. That not minds you are PvPing all the time (if not in clan war), due to death penalty, politics and the karma/pk system people will consider carefully before starting a fight. This makes in my view for the best PvP around (I haven’t played EVE, may be that one is equal or better I can’t judge it).

Economy is the other big thing in Lineage 2, you will need to farm money and materials and trade a lot. Almost no full item drops from mobs (2 weapons I couldn’t use and few armour items in almost 4 years) but from raid bosses that require a lot more people than drops they give. Almost all usable items are crafted, dwarves controls the economy (spoilers and artisans). Its frequent people have two accounts to play the game (main/dwarf or main/buffer) or three (main/buffer/dwarf).

All of this said, no other game gives me the fun and the immersion of Lineage 2 by far. If you like the cooperative game (not only party/raid combat) if you like group PvP (from 2 till 300 or more against 300 till 2, no expect a balanced, instanced or any other similar thing). If you don’t mind slow levelling (probably not if you are playing FFXI), give it a try, find a good clan and experience what is a game like this. Nothing to do with all other games I have played. But it’s just my taste.

That is, no one company likes non-constructive criticism.

BTW Javac may be a visit to the optometrist could help.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

 

Lol, what the hell are ppl whining about.

 

EVERYBODY and their grandmother knew the startup would be the mess it was, I certainly did.

Now its over, the game is working fine, they are opening for sale, everything is stable and its a damn good game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

Congratulations.
 

Common sense? well ...

1/ true to some degree in my opinion. I agree that all games i have been at launch got problems. But the impact on the game play has been really a lot different. So different that to put them in the same box is just lack of common sense.

2/ I totally agree with you on it except for the commented in the point above.

3/ Agreed

4/ again my experience is telling me something different.

5/ Obvious.

6/ This repeated mantra to justify low quality and unfinished products is one of the worst things we MMORPG players have been doing for a long time. Its not common sense. We are having what we are asking for.

Common sense is ask for well done and finished products. I'm not talking about "perfect" products just as good as any other kind of product you will be satisfied to buy. There are a lot of companies around delivering thousands of well done and finished products at least as complicated to develop as MMOs and targeting audiences a lot more diverse than any MMO could dream.

May be i have been very lucky, but except for AoC and Horizons all launches i have been (by the way not so much) run satisfactory. As with any product in any market in MMOs market there are good works, not perfect, but good and others that are plain bad.

Before DF unconditional followers jump on it, my comments are not addressed specifically to the DF launch. Anyway just for few objective facts, like the times server down, forums down and so, its clear it is not the best in the history.
 

Originally posted by amish_farmer

Originally posted by Trissa 

This is clearly the reason why companies like Turbine, NCSoft, Blizzard, Mythic and some others are really noobs because they used to stress test their games with real players. They are amateurs that not know anything about MMos development. I think your advise to google it will help them a lot.

/sarcasm off

And may be not in this case but sync problems could be caused by the sync algorithms to deal with the different latencies of players the servers need to manage. More players in a given zone more difficult to deal with the problem and more load to the server. And if the program is not well done, do you know what will happen? These boards are full of people describing it.
 

 

I'll say it again since you haven't read the thread.  To the best of my knowledge, the syncing issues in beta were caused by multi core processors. 

What does this have to do with how much load a server can handle, again?

If you cannot see it now i can't help so sorry.
 

Originally posted by amish_farmer

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by amish_farmer

Originally posted by xzyax

Did they put 10k+ players on the Beta server at one time?

News flash, genius.  You can load test a server with out having 10,000 people on a server.

News Flash!

Apparently the method that Aventurine tried.... DIDN'T WORK! 

 

Yeah, there may be other methods to do it without actual players... however sometimes the simplest is the best.  Hard to beat just plain ol' raw players loading up the server and watch where the server craps out. 

It's worked for many MMOs since I started playing them back before UO was released.

 

Really it's not rocket science. 

 

Perhaps you can expound upon the merits of Aventurine's methodology of server capacity testing? 

I'm interested to hear what innovations they have brought to the genre on this matter. 

How soon do you think we'll be seeing other MMOs try and emulate their server capactity testing?

I'll check back for answers. 

It doesn't have anything to do with server capacity.  The sync issues are (were during beta, and as far as I know) related to certain hardware configurations.  Chances are that these configurations were missed in beta testing, considering that the sync issues were fixed in beta and reappeared in release.

You don't need 10,000 people logged onto a server to load test it.  You can find the max amount of processor load/network load that a client puts on the server and simulate it.   Don't know what I'm talking about?  Google it.

Creating 10,000 accounts, having 10,000 people download the 9GB client, dealing with other issues they might face and having them all log on at the same time is NOT the simplest method to load test a server.

I'll say it again: the problem has nothing to do with how many players the server can hold.

This is clearly the reason why companies like Turbine, NCSoft, Blizzard, Mythic and some others are really noobs because they used to stress test their games with real players. They are amateurs that not know anything about MMos development. I think your advise to google it will help them a lot.

/sarcasm off

And may be not in this case but sync problems could be caused by the sync algorithms to deal with the different latencies of players the servers need to manage. More players in a given zone more difficult to deal with the problem and more load to the server. And if the program is not well done, do you know what will happen? These boards are full of people describing it.