Originally posted by Niamb

I agree.  It is indeed possible to raid and maintain a real life.  You have to be a in a guild with other responsible adults who agree to adhere to firm rules.  You also need enough raiders so that the real life issues that arise among adults don't impact the ability of the guild to raid.

Rule number one: Real life comes first.  Adults understand that when your spouse's relatives are there for a visit, you won't be raiding.  Ditto for your kid's recital night.

Rule number two: Even if the raid wiped when the boss was at 1% that last time, we are  past the official ending time for our raids and we are done.  Adults have jobs and responsibilties that have priority.  Showing up for work half asleep because the raid pushed on till midnight is not fair.  The ending time is firm.  No more pulls after the official stop time.

Additionally, there are a limited number of raid nights.  Adults can usually afford to devote two or three evenings a week to a hobby.  Additionally, raids are limited to 3 - 4  hours in length.   Weekends are for family.

With a guild that adheres to rules such as these, it is possible to both raid and maintain a real life.  You won't be raiding at the bleeding edge, but it is possible to access most of the end-game content.  My guild was working on Illidan when the update went live.  While that isn't Sunwell, I think most would certainly consider it end-game raiding.

^^^ This. Thread over.

Originally posted by Netspook

Originally posted by Niamb

Sorry for any inaccuracies, but these articles are written approximately a month before they are published.  My clairvoyance fails me again.

You want me to explain to you what the word "news" means?

Har har, aren't you clever?

That's not something the correspondants have any control over - the website likes to hold on to articles for several weeks before they are published, so don't come to this website expecting cutting edge "news" - everything on here (or at least, everything by the correspondants) will be at least two weeks old.

The comments section of the WoW articles are infested with brain-dead, WoW-hating trolls. Half the comments to the correspondent's articles usually consist of whiney, bitchy WoW-haters who couldn't give a damn about the article, all they care about is that the comments section gives them a soap box that they can use to spew more of their blind hatred of WoW. Step off, assholes. If you hate the game so much, then go back to your Warhammer and let those of us who like the game enjoy it in peace.

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by TeranHawkins

 Nice thoughts but in reality you can't raid and have much life.  Even the "casual" raiding guild starts out 1 or 2 nights a week and ends up being 5 days a week for 5-6 hours a night.  Too much time spent when you have a full time job and like to do other things too!  I know from experience.

 

Agree completely and detest this WoW's quality.

Imo mmo=timesink days are behind us. Thank god.

In a few years we'll probably look at those "raiding-grinding" days with a mixture of amusement and disgust. Just another inexplicable craze that has came and gone.

However I'll never forget Blizzard for intentionally making such a game that is destructive to its players' real life. Really WoW turned me from a Blizzard fan into a Blizzard hater. No way in hell I'll buy Diablo 3 after I've seen what their idea of a good game is in WoW.

I don't know what planet you two are living on, but I have no idea what you're talking about here. I raid IN a casual guild, and we keep our raiding time limited to 3 nights per week - we start at 9:30 server time, and we NEVER go later than midnight. Our guildies keep very healthy real lives and relationships with their families and friends, and we are raiding Black Temple - we'll be starting Sunwell soon, too.

I'm dead serious - most of the players that I've seen on this website that go off on raiding have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, instead opting to refer to raiding and players that raid in broad, sweeping generalizations that are patently false in the majority of cases.

Originally posted by Terranah

I know guys with 3 or more kids...and they run guilds and lead raids.  They spend 4+ hours every day raiding and grouping up with thier guilds.  And some of them work also, but some are unemployed.  I knew a married couple in WOW that didn't work and had 5 kids that would be on all day and raid also.

And I know married couples that spend 2 nights raiding, 3 hours each. They keep family time and WoW time separate, and if something comes up, family is priority, not WoW. For every example of a diehard addict you could cite, I can cite at least 2 others who keep their playtime under control.

This is the article's author. Just a note before the feeding frenzy starts, I AM aware that with the pre-expansion patch, Group Calender was intergrated into the default user interface; I wrote this article roughly four weeks ago before the changes took place. I was going to resubmit the article to reflect the changes to the UI, but it obviously went to print first.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Provide proof to your claims that 'most players' raid (or even a significant percentage do) and I will be the first to acknowledge that Blizzard accomplished another amazing thing in WoW - making raiding appealing to mainstream gamers. 

You offer your personal opinions and observations with no facts to back them up.   You claim you see more raiding but provide no other references or indepedent information to support you.   I provided links, facts and numbers from the Blizzard developers themselves.   That's what it takes to make a convincing argument.

Provide them.  Opinions are changed by facts, not other opinions.  Until you, or someone else, can provide links and references, I'm done with this.   I've given facts, if you choose to ignore them and provide nothing to counter them but your personal observations/opinions there is no point trying to hold a discussion

 

Again, I said EVIDENCE, not proof. You will not be satisfied with anything except another release of numbers, which Blizzard hasn't done, so you know you are asking the impossible of me. Yet you blindly post your info which is over three years and one expansion pack outdated and cling tightly to it, refusing to believe that anything has changed, even though everything has. WoW today is not the same game that it was in 2005, and you are being an ignorant dolt in trying to pretend that it is, refusing to listen to anyone's side except your own. A typical kool-aid drinking, diehard PvP'er.

Your so-called facts do not apply anymore. They're far outdated, back when the player base was a tenth of what it was and raiding was much more constricted and limited. As such, you have provided nothing relevant or meaningful. You're doing nothing more than trolling.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Actually you do need numbers to back up your claims otherwise they are just that, claims.   "Screenshot or it didn't happen." is a standard saying for a reason.   You may have been involved in WoW raiding from the first day of release but it is still only your viewpoint and that of your friends.    That is simply not the same as official public statements made by the Develoeprs and the company.

The raiding environment may have changed but until there is a Blizzard developer giving numbers like they did at that Blizzcon then it's  'Screenshot or it didn't happen'.   (Perhaps this is something for people to ask at the upcoming Blizzcon panels?)

And you aren't really suggesting Blizzard can't keep track of the raid traffic on their servers??    The game wouldn't be able to operate if they couldn't do that.  

Servers can keep track of every single instance that is spawned at every microsecond just like they keep track of every single player.     That is why you add more servers when you have more players and have companies in other countries operating the extra servers.    One million or ten million is irrelevant because Blizzard has added more servers to cover their increased traffic. 

All someone has to do to get the raid numbers is call up the Networking Deptarments that serve WoW and ask for the numbers.   One would hope Blizzard is already getting those numbers in monthly (if not weekly) reports.    Whether they share them is another thing.

 

I listed number 2 as a possible reason, not necessarily a likely reason. At any rate, you can't seriously be suggesting that a very small number of players today are raiding. I'm not going by merely my opinion or my friend's opinion - I'm going by perfectly documentable evidence: groups forming Kara, ZA, even SSC/TK PuGs on both the LFG and Trade channels on a daily basis. Those were RARE in pre-TBC days. MC/Onyxia PuGs happened MAYBE once a week and usually fell apart in short order. Sites such as WoWjutsu or other sites that keep track of guild progress also prove that more guilds are participating in raiding, far more than there were in pre-TBC WoW.

The evidence is there that TBC raiding is far more wide-spread and successful today than it was in 2005, and it's there in-game if you have eyes to see it. But of course, you're a hard-core PvP'er with a rabid hatred towards raiding, so nothing will ever satisfy you, nor will you ever admit that most players do raid and most enjoy it. I know your type - you have a vendetta against the entire concept of raiding and nothing will ever dissuade you from that vendetta.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

At least we agree making a game mechanic that follows after an example from EQ was a mistake.

I have heard it claimed before that there are a significant number of players who raid but this is always suggested by other raiders. The only refernce I have ever seen regarding actual raid numbers was from a panel back at Blizzcon 2005.  Kaplan himself was one of the people on the panel.

http://www.goblinworkshop.com/BlizzCon/2005/raid-panel.html

The Blizzard Developers said that back then **worldwide**  on weeknights at primetime they had a total of 33,500 people raiding.   On weekends they said there was an increase of 1.6x in Molten Core Instances (800 from 500).    Applying that same ratio to the primetime weeknight raider numbers we get 53,600 - let's round up to 55,000 people raiding on the weekend.

By late 2005 WoW had a subscriber base of about 4 million, conservatively speaking.  One million were in US and Canada.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08/29/news_6132187.html

Let's be generous and say that the Developers were mistaken and they were referring to only  NA servers rather than worldwide servers when they gave their raid instance numbers at the Blizzcon panel.  

One million total players and 55,000 of them raiding on any weekend.   Certainly not all one million player logged on every weekend but the panel gave the total number of MC raids  run over the weekend. There is also the fact that raid Instances are often made up of the same  players farming the same Instance.

If raiding was so prevalent one would expect much higher numbers than under 10%. It's even worse if we take the Developers at their word and say those raid Instance numbers were worldwide totals.  (Which would mean they'd be compared against 4 million players)

Now this is all based on articles that are several years old.  Blizzard realized their serious mistake of giving out actual raid instance numbers (their forums went up in flames) and as far as I know they have never given such numbers again.

If you have more up to date information and numbers from more recent interviews with Blizzard Devs on daily raid numbers I would be interested in seeing it.   Otherwise, you are only  presenting an opinion about any majority or minority of raiders in the game. An opinion biased by the fact that most of the people you know are also raiders.  I played WoW for years, none of my friends raid.  Neither is adequate evidence by itself. 

Numbers are the what is needed if you want to support your claim on the number of raiders in the game. If there are more recent numbers please give links.   Blizzard has been tight-lipped about raid numbers since that first Blizzcon and I am as curious as anyone about them.

 

TBC raiding is a far cry from the days of Molten Core. WoW today is not even close to being the same game that it was back in 2005, plus there's over ten times the amount of players today that there were back then. Raiding is more diverse and involved, and a lot more people raid now than in MC. I was around back in the day before BWL was even added, and only a few people raided MC and Onyxia. Just before TBC hit, a lot more people had at least seen the inside of MC, but not many.

There are a LOT more people raiding now, at the end of TBC than there were at the end of WoW Classic. I don't have any numbers, but I'm simply going by the frequency that I see people looking for members for ZA or Kara, and the number of guilds that are in places like SSC and TK. There are a LOT more guilds that have at least seen SSC and TK than there were guilds that had at least seen MC. I don't need numbers to back up my claims. I was there for the WoW Classic raiding scene and I'm obviously here for the TBC raiding scene. The difference between the two is like the difference between night and day.

As for numbers, I find that companies only release info if they're trying to prove something - I'm pretty sure that Blizz hasn't felt the need to release the numbers on raid traffic for one of two reasons: 1) they don't feel the need to "prove" that people are indeed raiding (because in WoW Classic, it was in fact true that only a small percentage of the player base was raiding) or 2) because they simply can't keep track of all the raid traffic. 10 million+ players is significantly more difficult to keep track of than one million.

At any rate, raiding in TBC is looking much better than WoW Classic and in WotLK, it's only going to get better. And no, you don't have to "sacrifice" in order to see raid content. You can have a perfectly functional social and/or family life and still raid BT and SWP a few nights a week.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

You missed my point.  And I was able to present that point without resorting to insults.

If you leave a team-based game match, you sacrifice the time spent in the match.   Which is 10-15 mins?      If you leave a raid, you've just wasted hours. 

I *never* said one thing about demanding equal items for non-raiders.   I was pointing out the ridiculous nature of an outdated  game mechanic that doesn't permit players flexibility of their free time.    After the initial surge of large-man raids, Blizzard has steadily toned down raids and developed more PvP elements in WoW.    There is a reason for this and it's driven by what Blizzard sees of their players. 

It's nice how you suggest anyone who does want not to raid to can just do content that has "little meaning or consequence".     I wonder how all the WoW players who do PvP arenas or don't raid would feel about that comment.      

I agree with one thing you said, if you want to raid go ahead.   But how about developers making a game where players are allowed to play how they want and not  relegated to meaningless and inconsequential content simply because they can't sit at a computer for 3-4 hours at a single stretch.      It is unfortunate that  Blizzard decided to give raiding so much their development resources earlier on, if they hadn't they wouldn't be having to take steps to fix it now. 

 

No, I understood your point entirely, and I didn't use any insults either.

As far as toning down raiding elements, the 40-mans were fun and epic, but too demanding and Blizzard was right to tone it down. They toned it down to where it is now because it was patently obvious that few players ever saw Naxxramas. Where raiding is now is much better, but it will be perfected in Lich King.

But you're calling raiding by its very nature outdated and ridiculous, and you are flat-out wrong. Most players ENJOY raiding. No, not all of them, but most do. You're obviously a hard-core PvP'er who would rather engage in hundreds of little matches (which, INDIVIDUALLY, indeed have little meaning or consequence on the outcome of you getting epix) than one long campaign in a dungeon. That's nice, but you are hardly the majority. What you want should be viable, and it will be since PvP will come into play more.

But so will raiding. Guess what? A significant number of players LIKE to play for 3-4 hours. It's a lot of fun, and you are deluding yourself if you think they're a tiny minority. A lot of raiders are friends who know each other and like to play together, hang out on vent, talk about stuff and kill raid bosses and stuff. The developers were NOT wrong to put a lot of effort into raiding; where they were wrong is how much like EQ they made it.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Originally posted by Jimboa24

Originally posted by DeViLzzz2008

Preparing to raid ...

the first step is to throw your life away and ignore your family and friends ...

Be sure to read my next article, which addresses this very myth.

That should be amusing.   For that next article, remember that is not the raw number of hours that is the issue.  Saying 'I only raid 3-4 hours a couple of times week' is baloney because that is not the point.  (Besides, that tired old argument also ignores all the time spent on the farming timesinks described in the current article)

The real issue is gameplay that forces players to sit there for 3-4 hours straight without the ability to leave unless they want to ruin everyone else's experience and be blamed for the raid wiping (whether or not their leaving was at fault)

The concept of a video game forcing non-stop game play for hours and punishing players (and their friends) if they need to stop is one of the most ridiculous mechanics of older generation MMORPGs.   It’s regrettable WoW was taken over at a late-stage of its development by ex-EQ raiders who carried on this wretched tradition (at the expense of the game's PvP). 

Players of other  mutliplayer games in every other genre can leave the game when they want and all that is lost is one match or the equivalent of a small chunk of time.   You leave a raid and the time lost is measured in HOURS.  That kind of gamplay only works with those players that have unbroken chunks of time to waste.   There are many, many gamers who have lives that can't afford lengthy, unbroken stretches on a regular basis.   Thus the 'myth' that you have to give up everything else in your life to raid.   

It's not the raw number of hours that's the problem,  it's the idiotic mechanic forcing long uninterrupted periods of gameplay and the punishment of other players in the game if your Wife/Husband/Child/GF/BF/dog/cat suddenly gets sick or something else from real life crops up.    

The amusing thing is to watch WoW steadily trying to tone raiding down. What happened to those 40-mans Blizzard that Kaplan and Chilton were once so proud of? At least they were forced to LOOK at their own game numbers and made to realize there is no market for those bigger raids.   Now they need to be forced to take an even closer look.

MMORPGs are evolving and leaving behind their most insipid past mechanics. Harsh death penalties, ridiculous XP curves and all those other mechanics that drove away gamers for years are being tossed aside (even as the hardcores moan and whine as their precious little niche market stops being a joke to the rest of the gaming industry).    Multi-hour, large man raids need to go the same way and the market will drive them there.   Developers just need to start offering products that aren’t based on the idea that a game has any right to make demands of the player's time, but rather make products that offer the players choices of how they want to spend their time.    It’s started already and it’s going to continue.
 

I can't think of a single team-based online game where if one player suddenly goes, "brb, shower" and leaves for an extended period of time, that the rest of the team is not hurt by this. Team-based online games by their very nature require everyone to be present or else they can't continue. You seem to have a very warped view of raiding - you seem to regard it as shackles that bind you and force you to sit there for hours doing a very unpleasant task. Hey, guess what? Some people enjoy raiding! Just because you're not one of them, that doesn't mean this is a problem.

In reality, if you plan your raids ahead of time and schedule them on a regular basis, then the only thing you would have to worry about are emergencies. My guild has people that have to leave at a moment's notice sometimes (we have a lot of parents that raid), and guess what? It's not a big deal. No one is irreplaceable, not even the main tank or a main healer. If you really don't like raiding, fine, don't raid - if you want short matches that have little meaning or consequence, then do arenas.

But don't delude yourself or others into thinking that being a raider means chaining yourself to a computer. That's nothing more than idiotic propeganda usually mindlessly copied and pasted by people who simply don't like to raid but want shiny epics.

Originally posted by kirzan

Nice guide, did it really take 2 years to release though?! Really... this preparation to raid will be void in november. So why would someone take on that time consuming quest of "getting prepared for raids" (Even though Kara and Gruul's can be done with many greens equipped) when the quest rewards of WotLK will be better than at least T4. Please tell me.

Two years to write? Not at all...however, I didn't become aware of this site nor its search for correspondants until about three weeks ago, and no, this guide will remain relevant through Wrath - only the names of the dailies factions and the different consumables will change, and I fully intend to write a follow-up to this article once I hit level 80 on my two main toons (which will be shortly after WotLK hits).

And while Gruuls and Kara can be done in greens, only those who are very familiar with those instances will be able to pull that one off. If you take 10 players who JUST hit 70 and dump them into Kara, I doubt they'll be able to down Moroes. And yes, even now, at the 11th hour of TBC, there are still players that are brand new to raiding. This article was mostly written with them in mind.

Originally posted by MrArchy

Thank God this article finally came out.  I've been 70 for so long, but I just wasn't ready to raid.  And there's so much time before WotLK comes out, now I can get all the uber leet lewt!!  Great timing, guys!!  A-Badging I shall go!!

Yes, I know WotLK is coming soon. However, most of this article will be true regardless of whether you're playing TBC or WotLK. With the exception of the specific names (like, "Flask of Relentless Assault"), most of the tips in this article will still be true in Lich King - you're still going to want to bring flasks/elixirs, bandages, item ehancements, food, etc. The major change obviously will be the potion change, but not much else. Every consumable listed in this article WILL have its WotLK counterpart.

Lich King will still have its equivelent of Badge gear (they'll be called something else but serve the exact same function as Badges of Justice), and it will still have a plethora of dailies to do for quick cash. In short, mock the article all you want, but the general advice in it will remain true after the expansion.

Originally posted by DeViLzzz2008

Preparing to raid ...

the first step is to throw your life away and ignore your family and friends ...

 

Be sure to read my next article, which addresses this very myth.

Originally posted by Black_Elvis

Great article for folks with no skill that want to get in on the action and wtfpwn people.  Oh wait, that's every rogue player already...

Nah, that's warlocks. All they gotta do to top the damage meters (and pwn in PvP) is bind every key to one of their various curses, dots and shadowbolt (or fear if it's PvP), wrap their head in bubblewrap, turn on some techno music, then pound their head on the keyboard to the beat.

The only "skill" involved in warlocks is deciding which techno song they want to facemash to. Frost Mages in PvE are even easier (if it were even possible to be easier, lol).

I have to disagree, Slice and Dice does about the same damage for me as eviscerate. All a matter of choice, but most certainly is not that much different since I don't notice any at all.

Disagree all you like, but the simple fact is that you're wrong. 30% haste increase, when up for 100% of all fights you engage in, does significantly more damage than the occasional 1200 or 1300 flat damage every 15 or 20 seconds (which is what Evisc does). Look up any spreadsheet on rogue DPS, any theorycrafting or number-crunching site. The Elitist Jerks forum is especially useful in this regard. Any rogue with much experience, especially in raiding, knows the significant value of SnD over Eviscerate. If you don't see it, then I submit that you are simply not looking hard enough at the numbers.

I used to not use SnD at all while I was raiding in Molten Core, when I was particularly green to raiding, but by the time I had started running Blackwing Lair, I had learned the absolute value of SnD + Rupture in raids. The only time Eviscerate should be used is when the mob is almost dead, you have no Deadly Poison charges on it (can't envenom), and there are no other mobs to fight which you will need to keep SnD active for.

Most of your monster killing will involve your staple combo of Sinister Strike/Hemorrhage followed by Eviscerate once you’ve reached 5 combo points. Kidney Shot, Gouge and Blind are also an option if you ever need to heal in combat or buy yourself enough time to finish the mob.

Evasion can be a life-saver, especially when fighting more than one mob or elites.

WRONG! So completely wrong.

Eviscerate should NEVER be used in PvE - you should always be using Slice 'n Dice and Rupture. Eviscerate does terrible, terrible damage. Slice and dice should ALWAYS be up, and if you happen to have both SnD and Rupture up already, and have an additional 5 combo points on the target, you should throw in an Envenom, as it will always do more damage than Eviscerate.