Will solo players be able to progress their characters at end game, or will they run into the type of glass ceiling they encounter with WoW?

For those wondering why MGM isn't on top of this situation more closely:

www.deadline.com/hollywood/exclusive-details-mgm-makes-phone-plea-to-bondholders-for-millions-to-stay-alive-both-hobbit-and-james-bond-in-peril-bondholders-tell-studio-to-go-bankrupt-mgm-calls-that-worst-possible-outcom/

If they go bankrupt, who knows what will happen.

To gain a more thorough understanding of what solo players desire in this genre, one must first drink in this gem from Frances Wright:

"Equality is the soul of liberty; there is, in fact, no liberty without it."
 

Unless solo players can continue to gain progression for their charcters at end game, it isn't a solo freindly MMO.

All I get is video removed by user.

If they're smart, they'll only surrender to Goddess Amanda.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by Beartosser

They'll add them just before the next expansion comes out, whereupon they will be as worthless as the Sunwell ones now.

 

You might be right, but people still go after them like a pack of hungry wolves. Blizzard is very good at keeping people addicted on loot. They learned the lesson all too well from Diablo 2 and now have refined it for the masses.

The problem is solo players have no other option at the moment if they want to play a decent MMO, so they bite their tongues and accept second class citizenship rather than do what I did and vote with their wallets. They have to learn that the short term pain of refusing to compromise their playstyle is the only path towards equality available to them.
 

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by SwampRob 

All that token stuff is meaningless to a soloer.   I still have to group to get the damn tokens, so Wow still = no endgame for soloers.   Pre-WOTLK I had 6 70s, and I felt none of them had anything worthwhile to do, unless I was going to group.  So long, Wow.    Solo friendly my ass.

 

You missed my point. Emblems were added to daily quests in TBC when Sunwell came out. So you could get them through solo questing very easily. I am pretty sure that Blizzard will add them to WoTLK as well.

 

They'll add them just before the next expansion comes out, whereupon they will be as worthless as the Sunwell ones now.

Reguarding the tokens in WoW,  the top rated plate chestpiece for protection pallys (Unbreakable Chestguard) has: 2348 armor, 105 strength, 159 stamina, + 60 defense, + 51 shield block, + 77 block value of shield. That of course is completely out of the question for solo players, but say you're willing to accept something in the bottom of the top 50 plate (Heroes' Redemption Breastplate), the stats are: 2241 armor, 89 strength, 111 stamina, + 38 defense, + 47 shield block, + 59 block value of shield.

Surely while raiders are wearing the former they wouldn't begrudge solo players the considerably inferior latter item....well, let's see what a solo player has to do to get the Heroes' Redemption Breastplate:

A quick check shows it's sold by plate armor merchant Griselda Hunderland in Dalaran in exhange for one Chestguard of the Lost Conqueror, which is in turn sold by one of two emblem of heroism quartermasters,  Arcanist Ivrenne or Magistrix Lambriesse, again in Dalaran for 80 Emblem of Heroism. Simple enough so far, now lets see the so called easy mode path soloers have to get those emblems:

All they have to do is kill any combination of Anub'arak, Cyanigosa, Gal'darah, Herald Volazj, Ingvar the Plunderer, Keristrasza, King Ymiron, Ley-Guardian Eregos, Loken, Mal'Ganis, Sjonnir The Ironshaper, or The Prophet Tharon'ja 40 times in daily heroics to get the 80 emblems needed.

So, my question to people who are still playing WoW is can you honestly say that task is an acheivable one for solo players?

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Beartosser

Maybe the solution is group and solo instances with completely seperate progression and acheivement paths. They could even make the gear obtained in either have stats (like they did with the pvp gear in Wow) that give them a clear advantage in their specialty. Then, raiders would still have superior raid gear, and solo players would have superior solo gear.
 

Or take it one more step further... separate games for both groups o_0! That way soloers would get twice as much content and groupers as well, since the devs wouldn't have to do content for 2 separate groups of players at once. 

With the divide that exists between the various playstyles, that's probably an inevitability.

Using television as an example, in it's early days the networks had massive audience numbers (like WoW's subscriber base now), but as consumer appetites grew and became more specialised, cable and satellite arrived and supplied specialty channels for the various niche markets. Of course, HBO, SyFy etc. don't have the money to spend that the networks do, but their fans are happy with the product, and those specialty channels are profitable as a result of catering to their client base.

Raid, Solo, PvP, RP.......there's four niche MMO markets that a small to mid sized dev could cater to and profit from right off the bat.

Maybe the solution is group and solo instances with completely seperate progression and acheivement paths. They could even make the gear obtained in either have stats (like they did with the pvp gear in Wow) that give them a clear advantage in their specialty. Then, raiders would still have superior raid gear, and solo players would have superior solo gear.
 

"What really pisses me off is that you goup / raid fanatics can't seem to stand the thought of even one single MMO (SWTOR) possibly giving soloers / casuals a game to call their own. The sheer amount of entitlement you people exhibit is mind boggling."

Imagine the uproar from them if solo players wanted to have an unfair advantage in the end game, instead of just equality.

"If you are not in the target audience.. well... as I've said before you are SOL. No one is making you play."
 

As I mentioned in another post, I'm not currently playing an MMO, and for that very reason. There are many out there like me who are waiting for a game to meet our needs, and by posting here I'm reminding the devs that if they build it, we will come, and they will make money.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Beartosser

Originally posted by Vrazule

....as if groupers and raiders aren't exhibiting all kinds of selfishness.  Soloers want equal treatment, groupers want preferential.  Now who exactly is being selfish?

Exactly, but once people become used to being on the receiving end of that level of preferential treatment, it's very difficult to get them to give it up.
 

 

Both want a game they like to play.

Groupers want a group game, soloers want a solo game.

I don't think it's beyond their capability to create a game that satisfies both, but if it is that difficult, maybe they should go the route they went with PVE and PVP in WoW......seperate servers.

Originally posted by Vrazule

....as if groupers and raiders aren't exhibiting all kinds of selfishness.  Soloers want equal treatment, groupers want preferential.  Now who exactly is being selfish?

Exactly, but once people become used to being on the receiving end of that level of preferential treatment, it's very difficult to get them to give it up.
 

"Calling for new games to incorporate your ideas is one thing, bitching that an existing game has that mechanic, has always had that mechanic/concept, and was at the forefront in terms of concept is another."
 

I'm not currently playing an MMO, nor am I planning on going back to any of the existing ones, so I'm here just waiting on a new game to come along that rewards my playstyle at cap. SWTOR looks like a step forward, both in terms of solo content, and for the fantasy to sci fi change up, so I'm optomistic.

"For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish."

I don't want group/raid content removed or altered at all. What I'm asking for is completely seperate solo content at end game.

I don't think that's being unreasonable.

"If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have."

It's very much worth their effort, since the solo playstyle is in fact the largest minority. WoW only began to tap into that lucrative segment of customers with their solo freindly 1 to cap levelling, and it's paid off handsomely for them. Now BioWare is claiming they'll take it a step further in terms of solo freindly game mechanics with SW:TOR, and they'll tap into some of those customers too. If that game doesn't bring equality with it, then others down the road will up the ante. It's only a matter of time.

"You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group?"

Currently, it's solo players who are forced to group in order to advance their characters. All I'm asking for is the ability to do so independently of group mechanics. This is a fair request that has very little impact on groupers ability to play their playstyle.

"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs."

Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not.

"Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
 

You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle.

It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.

"It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid.

You don't have to have the same skill set."
 

PvP players have a different skill set too, and they have seperate self contained paths and reward systems at end game.

Why don't they go the same route for solo players, who are an even larger subset in the MMO genre?