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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Dengar

All Posts by Dengar

2 Pages 1 2 »
33 posts found
I just don't get the point of MMORPG.com's recent "reveal" diaries. Most of the new info should just be a stub ("beta coming soon" "Q&A transcript here" etc). "Reveals" about systems and stuff that have been live since 2012's beta really make me feel like this site kind of ignored the game and fan community until... I dunno, maybe Trion suddenly started courting them for more PR. Other MMO sites, large and small, had this info almost a year ago, and seeing it deposited here as "new" just feels like trying to watch the nightly news after spending most of the day on news websites.
Bleh, this is news? This is all info we've seen since before the game went to Japan.

As someone who helped organize and lead 40 mans, they WERE something people could afk in, but usually only once you were farming it a bit (or had some really skilled players). They were a beast to organize and coordinate, especially with movement intensive fights (C'thun >.< ).

At the time, they were fun, but I seriously question the current MMO generation's willingness to go through those same headaches after being fed smaller, easier to manage group encounters. Lots of people seem to feel "stuck" in, say, 10 man content unable to get enough for 25 man. Isn't that why Blizz introduced flex raiding?

Originally posted by Storm_Cloud
Originally posted by Leiloni

Squee! Looks amazing, can't wait.

 

Also, wtb Dragon Age MMO. Come on Bioware you know it would be great! :)

Mmmm, a sandbox Dragon Age MMORPG... Question is though, will Bioware be capable of such a task? A question to be discussed if this wish become a reality.

 

I feel the same way. A DA sandbox would be great, but I don't feel like I've seen Bioware do a sandbox yet. Maybe after 3, they can jump any other future narratives 100 years in the future or something and just make an open MMO happen after that. Maybe outsource it to a different company, depending on how DA3 goes (it's supposed to be more of a sandbox, right?)

First off, glad to be participating in this! I met you once at a gaming convention when some other reporter was talking to you about WoW having such an advantage over RIFT, you mentioning how proud you were of your team, and I kinda stepped in, not immediately recognizing you, saying that I felt like WoW just had the time advantage and that I honestly felt it was Blizzard that was having to catch up to you guys. You just turned to me and said, "Let me shake your hand" and it totally hit me who you were. I was super embarrassed at the time, but obviously it's a memory for me.

Anyway, big ArcheAge fan here. I was wondering though, if Trion would give any preferred treatment to a certain fansite that's been the center of ArcheAge news since before you guys signed up to localize it. I know they've got a lot of experience with the game in at least Korean, and some of them have played several versions of the game too. Would bringing them in to test before closed beta to the general public perhaps help speed up the game's development and localization?

Wide turns are possible in rail shooters, just not often. A buddy of mine and I keep watching that part and we're both leaning towards rails, as much as we want it to be free form. If they wanted people to know it was free form, they'd show a U-turn, wouldn't they?

But as you started out, there is a buy to play option. Other companies do gated content where you pay for additional content as you want it. I would support that before a box price AND subscription. There are too many MMOs coming out these days, and many of them disappoint. Yes, WoW and Eve still have box prices with subs, but both also have (small) cash shops and are the exception to the rule. 

WildStar is aiming for the WoW crowd, and maybe they are still new and generally inexperienced enough with the genre to think that's their only option for good games. I might work, but it didn't work for RIFT and that had a lot of fast, high quality content patches that I quickly felt outpaced the features in WoW (I'll still argue that WoW is trying to catch up to RIFT in that aspect). RIFT is now free to play, and still a great game (one I've returned to more than WoW), but it does illustrate how much of a fight it is to do the box + sub game. 

The media seems to love The Secret World and it followed a similar path, but went buy to play instead. That game, I feel, really did mix things up, while WIldStar is just trying to make small adjustments. I think both these examples plus the fact that Carbine is hiding things I feel are basic information for new MMOs (races that many of us already could easily find on the internet, classes that aren't exactly revolutionary, still waiting on how PvPers are supposed build war plots if they don't want to raid) make me feel uneasy about the finished product. Without getting to try the game first, I can't see myself falling for the box price + sub trap. It didn't work on FF14 for me, and it was building interest for me. WildStar, by comparison, has been losing my interest ever since E3.

But as you started out, there is a buy to play option. Other companies do gated content where you pay for additional content as you want it. I would support that before a box price AND subscription. There are too many MMOs coming out these days, and many of them disappoint. Yes, WoW and Eve still have box prices with subs, but both also have (small) cash shops and are the exception to the rule. 

WildStar is aiming for the WoW crowd, and maybe they are still new and generally inexperienced enough with the genre to think that's their only option for good games. I might work, but it didn't work for RIFT and that had a lot of fast, high quality content patches that I quickly felt outpaced the features in WoW (I'll still argue that WoW is trying to catch up to RIFT in that aspect). RIFT is now free to play, and still a great game (one I've returned to more than WoW), but it does illustrate how much of a fight it is to do the box + sub game. 

The media seems to love The Secret World and it followed a similar path, but went buy to play instead. That game, I feel, really did mix things up, while WIldStar is just trying to make small adjustments. I think both these examples plus the fact that Carbine is hiding things I feel are basic information for new MMOs (races that many of us already could easily find on the internet, classes that aren't exactly revolutionary, still waiting on how PvPers are supposed build war plots if they don't want to raid) make me feel uneasy about the finished product. Without getting to try the game first, I can't see myself falling for the box price + sub trap. It didn't work on FF14 for me, and it was building interest for me. WildStar, by comparison, has been losing my interest ever since E3.

Been playing MMOs for... god, 14 years now I think, and this is pretty much what I've experienced (I don't agree with all of it, especially discounting DF). To the "PvE" camp, there ARE 100% FFA PvP games- they're called "shooters." You want compromise? Try playing Darkfall. The AI is (usually) much more intelligent than most "AAA" games, and doesn't use gimmicks (i.e. "You need to tank him in the lava to debuff him or he'll enrage after 2 minutes"). Fighting the red dragon that roams over much of a certain island was one of the coolest experience I've had in gaming, and probably the BEST dragon kill ever (and trust me, I've killed a lot of dragons). 

Why is it in Darkfall? It's a compromise. It's got PvE and PvP. It's got safe zones and war zones. Hell, even in the old DF other PLAYERS (not people watchign the game from the sidelines) complained that too much of the community was hiding in cities or PvEing high end mobs. Killing those high end mobs was high risk, high reward, and a ton of fun, even if/when you got killed, sometimes by other players. 

PvPers have to compromise all the time. We play WoW. We play TOR. Hell, some of us play Animal Crossing (GUILTY!). But PvErs? Most of you see full PvP and you don't even give it a try, even if it's free. Hardcore PvP may be a smaller niche, but I think we've proven to be more compromising and loyal to our games than the PvE crew. After all, if PvE sandboxes like Istaria/Horizons, Ryzom, and Mabinogi aren't enough for you (the first two of which have been practically abandoned by players) after a few months, why would a new one be any more successful?

Originally posted by Rzep

For me the game does not exist, there are no screens, no videos, no info, nothing.

Yup. It's a press event where they didn't invite all the press. I also "love" how some sites are making it their best in show even though they can't say anything about it. I feel like this unchecked hype is really doing the MMO industry a disservice. TOR and GW2 were not bad games, but the hype over them was unwarranted and unrealistic, and some of the other MMOs coming down the pipe are receiving the same treatment.

It's actually more combat focused. Only 25-33% of the content is about paths, which is where you get the exploring/lore/building stuff from, for the most part (I think I heard that some of these activities will be part of the regular quests, with paths just giving you the option to open up normally restricted additional content to a specific type).

Dragons are looking like a slight minority at the moment. Very cool! I like a challenge ;P

Maybe I'm too pragmatic, but just go multi-faction and recruit responsibly? If you have voice chat, people can just ask others to stop ganking them if that's a problem, and those who can't listen to others may just need to be removed. I've seen it work a few times, and if you're an old guild, it means you have a lot of advantages (and history) to support a move like that.


I'm not seeing reasoning on how this'll change MMOs. It's more like "What it has that sorta makes it what we'd call an MMO." The last parts, to me, help confirm the idea that TOR's a single player RPG with a great lobby ;P


It's not an MMO, but the Animal Crossing series has some fun housing, and the online option for the last 2 really adds to the fun. It's been a nice way for me to pass the time while waiting for, at the very least, TOR (which I think may last me a month or so).

I really ought to stop reading these articles =/


Leading in and of itself is the reward, as it should be. Being a successful leader doesn't just = success, but gives you clout, forms a reputation, and generally allows you to do things others can't. For example, if a random guildie says they're going to play a different game, only their friends will really notice. However, if a leader (not always an officer, but someone with de facto control in forming groups, cohesive pvp plans, etc) says they're trying something else out, others are much more apt to follow. 


The social aspect should be the only reward for leading. Sorry, but the CEO statement was a bad one. It's like putting a business man in charge of government: he can handle the cash aspect, but the government's ultimate job is providing for people. As soon as this goes to priority 2, you need to get a new leader.


Originally posted by Axehilt

Difficulty = how much skill is required to avoid failure.

Penalty = what happens if you fail.

Therefore death penalty doesn't make games harder.  It just makes them more painful or inconvenient.

I think addressing this helps solidify the argument a bit more. The two go hand in hand. That is, if a game is challenging, you will "die" (or whatever the game mechanic may be) fairly often. If the penalty is high as well, it makes sure that players are avoiding death even more. Being reckless and lucky can get you through some "difficult" games if the penalty is light, while an easy game with a harsh death penalty suddenly seems more difficult merely because you have to focus a little more. For console gaming, IMO, it's important to balance the two, since the idea is that most people will want to see your entire game, but it needs to last a bit.

MMOs are a different beast though. Harsh death penalties are needed for some content. Look at WoW's pvp. It's largely considered a joke because no matter how many times you kill someone, they can come back and get round 2, sometimes before you even have a chance to heal up, which can lead to pvp degrading into a simple zerg fest. On the other hand, too harsh of a penalty may drive players away from a game (I can't get your average gamer to even give EVE or Darkfall a try because the idea of losing items is devastating to them). 

Let's try some concrete examples.

The Pokemon Colosseum series was frustrating as hell (and apparently cheated in some cases by making low accuracy moves more accurate for the NPC trainers). I would literally have to leave the room and take a walk at times because I'd get so angry. Losing meant having to start all over again, which cost time, but I didn't, say, lose poke-levels or anything. The game had a high difficulty, but low punishment.

Switch to FF11. The game wasn't hard IMO, but the penalty was high. I had trouble finding people to group with me, so I soloed in the wilds. Every once in awhile, someone would train mobs on me and I'd die and lose a chunk of xp. I actually spent a weekend bouncing between level 11 and 13, until finally swearing off the game. I wanted to see more of FF11, but the high death penalty and inability to progress brought additional challenges to the simplicity of the core game.

As others have noted, a lack of open beta generally means the developers are hiding something. On the function front, open betas can help prep for launch by providing a larger stress test. However, IMO, open betas are much more important for MMOs than with other products. For example, you cannot return an MMO to the store once you've purchased it. No other game has this limitation. Yes, you can ebay it, but that's a bit of a gray area (I've met enough people that bought brand new ebay accounts for next to nothing and had the original owner recall the account months/years later to know that it can simply be a way of getting free levels/items).

Personally, if I wasn't looking at this game as KotOR 3, this would be my red flag. However, since I'm mainly expecting a few months out of it, it's not going to stop me from buying the game.

 

A few folks have touched on this, so I'll reinforce some and possibly introduce others.

First, gear dependency and passivity. Tanking's most active job is holding aggro, not dodging and blocking. Stats tend to do the latter. While there may be a move that helps with mitigation, it's usually a short term buff, so it's more about stats and timing than the ability to simply, you know, not get hit. DPS and healing tends to be more active since your job a bit more skill dependent. Yes, tanks require you to know how to place a mob, drag it, keep aggro, etc (all additional reasons people may not play a tank), but your main job is to take damage for others, and the main way this is accomplished is through gear.

Next is that, like healers, tanks aren't great for soloing most of the time. You rarely kill things quickly. People like to see big numbers, and as a tank, that's usually going to be your HP. I frequently play tanks, but I get little joy out of having a shit ton of health. I get complements on it, but meh. I prefer hearing "Why won't you die!?" than "Nice HP!" Simply put, tanks rarely have the "wow" factor most people are looking for.

Overall skill check. The tank needs to know the encounter pretty well. They need to know how to move, when to move, where to move, all while keeping everyone else from taking damage. You're mommy/daddy. Usually you can give DPS bare-minimum info and they can do a good job, i.e. "Stand here, interrupt this spell, go all out at 50%." For tanks, maybe you get a "tank and spank" situation, which is pretty dull. DPS and heals might like it, but most of the time, for a tank, we can roll our face across the keyboard and get through the encounter. However, a lot of the time, we need to know that the DPS will be interrupting move X, and that if we don't see the cast bar disappear at about 75%, it's now our turn to deal with it. We have to move the boss to X location, usually while DPS is working against us for aggro and healers may be overhealing and potentially also gaining aggro, making positioning harder. We have to use cooldowns at a good pace for both the encounter and, at times, for the healer, so that they don't run out of mana. The overall pace and success is usually on our shoulders. Few people want that kind of responsibility, especially when it's so public and critical. Fewer still want to deal with the fact that you're learning the ropes, often times with veterans who are going to be super critical of all your mistakes throughout the learning process.

And this is where the next issue kicks in: the tanking glass ceiling. Most games have normal groups consisting of 5 players, 1 of which is a tank. Raiding, however, may involve 10-50 players, and meaning 2-10 groups of players. You would think that raids then need 2-10 tanks, but more often than not, raids need 2-3 tanks, even in 40 man encounters. What this means is that, after several levels or hours learning the ropes, becoming the front line leader needed to gear up and get ready for end game content, most of us will be cut simply because there's no room for us. Sure, maybe we can be the main tank for an alt run, but it means that, while someone can be main healer throughout their gaming life time, the tank will often have an alt to play because once they reach end game, there's a very real chance that they may be out of a job, unless they rank highly in the guild (and most established guilds have long term tanks who come in, clear content, then retire, which is maybe the first step towards the slump which is, saddly, when the benched tanks get called in).

And finally, there's pvp. I love being a pvp tank. Even if there's no npcs. I know how to spec, so that I have above average survivability, but I'm annoying enough with my actions and deal enough damage so that I can't be ignored. I know who to aim for to make the whole party target me, and my team mates can see that I live long enough and cause enough of a disturbance to get back up. It's awesome. The problem is, more so than most classes, tanking skills don't translate well into pvp. High threat moves usually aren't very useful without the high threat component, and taunts are only recently being made somewhat effective in pvp. Without some creativity, most tanks are, at best, flag carriers in objective pvp, and at worst, ineffective dps. Off the top of my head, in both WoW and Rift, people only talk about healing and dps pvp gear. It's an issue that, say, CC classes also suffer, and since we're such a gear reliant class, it's important. 

So, what are we left with? A class that's primary job is passive, needs to know the ins and outs of most of encounters to essentially baby sit the group, has to learn its job as the center spotlight of a group, and in the end, we may not have much of a use in raiding and pvp unless we're exceptionally skilled and have some good connections.

How can it be fixed? Think about heavy armor classes in an FPS game: your job is to physically step in front of the people you're protecting when need be, but people in general should be doing what they can to avoid getting hit. Make the tank capable of heavy hitting, dangerous enough that it can't be ignored, but the damage portion of the game is something everyone's susceptible to.

It's not an MMO, but I think Monster Hunter Tri did this best for pve tanking. Everyone was essentially a tank part of the time, since aggro was, in some ways, random (though some armor sets made you more likely to be attacted than others). When you had aggro, you needed to know how to move to minimize damage to both yourself and your group. It made everyone responsible for learning the game and avoiding damage, but good players could get in the way of some projectiles for other players, push others out of the way, etc. The Old Republic sounds like it'll be handling the pvp tanking part despite (what sounds like) another case of passive damage avoidance, but it's better than nothing. I've looked into TERA a bit, and it sounds like a nice enough system that may address both pve and pvp, but I keep comparing it to Monster Hunter and find that I'm deeply troubled by the hard set classes. That is, if you have too many of one class, you can't simply change your play style and be useful. We'll see how it goes.

"Questing" in the way most MMOs use it these days has become a dirty word to me. It's code for "grind." Granted, I actually enjoyed some of WoW's Cata quests (this was the first expansion where I finished all the new zones' quests instead of hit the cap and just aimed for some easy ones when I needed cash).


However, most of the time, I'd prefer to pvp or explore for xp. The "stumble upon a quest" method speaks to me as a former Asheron's Call player. Coming across something odd in the world like an NPC calling for help is kinda cool, which is something I've seen more in Rift (I'm talking about, say, the merchant outside of Meridian, who has no quest tag, and you can either help him fight some bandits for a small reward or kill him for a title). MMOs need more of this, and it sounds like AA will have this.


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