Originally posted by cpthowdy

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by cpthowdy

i am sure he has stock, shares, contract or whatever that he will get paid any bonuses due to him. he isnt the lead programmer, artist or whoever else does the daily grunt work. how many guys or gals there have a vp title and are co something? co-manager? well i guess the other co-managers got a little more work dumped on their plates, big whoop.

Not if they leave

 

ok didnt know you were a lawyer and privy to his contract or to the inner workings of bioware. i stand corrected.

 

Precisely!  Since we don't know these details then why is there all this silly, baseless speculation and dogmatic assertions?

If one were to speculate in an intelligent manner they would use external (present and past) yet similar circumstances to draw on.  It is not uncommon at ALL for high level folk, in any industry, to leave yet receive substantial pay, profit share, stock, etc, and this is not even including what stake they held before leaving.

Originally posted by Korithian

  Does anyone really think that a move to a social gaming company is a step up from being VP of Bioware Austin The Old Republic. Seriously anyone would if everything was going well at the ToR that you would move from a 100 million dollar project to free to play gaming just as you are ment to be coming to launch and there is no doubt a nice bonus in your pay cheque.

 

  Now nobody can know why his moved but it sure isn't because of better prospects you have a company that is an industry leader over one up till now nobody could name. I can't think of any game developed by playdom. And so its equally unlikely that they will be paying him what EA and BW were paying. VP of a flag ship game or free to play gaming I doubt very much Playdom lured him away by a larger pay cheque.

 

  So the reason to quit back in January seems a lot more like falling on your sword and getting out before the bad press hits and you can't get another job. Where the old community manager bailed now the VP has and gone does this mean that they did this despite confidence of their game or because of a lack of confidence.

 

'Step up' is a very subjective view and knowing nothing about Gordon I would be a fool to speculate (although I certainly would be a fool in good company, based on previous posts here).

There are so many factors possible that should be in general just accepted as a "we don't know the whole story" type of situation.

I am not surprised but still displeased with all the (knee-jerk) reactions here and the rest of the net involving a snapshot of the Playdom website or its current knowable state.

Lets look at this from a business perspective... 

1. software does not just pop into existence one morning, it takes time, effort, talent, and money.  Thus I fail to see any logic in believing that it is a step down in any way based simply on what I see on the website... yet, this does lead to...

2. what is in fact on the website that is interesting (as pointed out previously) is that Playdom is part of a much larger, well known, successful and deep pocketed group

3. social services and entertainment related to them have proven to be a still emerging and lucrative area to be in

Gordon may be an entrepreneurial visionary with a track record of delivering.  Such a person is generally not content to sit idly by and just leech and absorb.  Rather, they want to be on the bleeding edge as well as to see both their vision and other's they see value in, succeed.

However, what really fascinates (but yet again, does not surprise) me is the complete cognitive dissonence regarding the very basic and real fact that all small companies start off simple and small.  Some are in a garage while others have great investment backing and are in good offices, but they all start small.  Also, there is always going to be  a debate on whether to (if applicable) release early with a small portion of what you plan, or to wait until you hit some arbitrary set of features that most would consider 'complete' and then release then.  There are merits to both sides and it is not a simple decision.

Its funny to see how the vast majority of people judge the viability of an endevour based on whether they use and like it or not.  I tried various social games and found they are not for me.  However it is quite obvious that there is a massive and growing market for such.  I realize not everyone is, or should be, of the sort that can see real potential in things... I am not saying we should all be, that would be silly.  However, one should wisely recognize that they are NOT that person and just drive on.  The mentality here is pretty much the same as you find when a good idea and even good implementation just fail for reasons outside of the value to folks or quality of work.  (sometimes, the best things fail due to oddities in social acceptance and buy in... well that and a large amount of government interference and/or bullying tactics on the part of the 'winner'.  This happens in everything from formats of videos to operating systems)  What is sad is the amount of arm-chair quarterbacking that happens after the event... this is completely separate from a healthy post-mortem analysis.  The later seeks to learn and grow while the former is a blatant show of folks trying to be 'right' and look smart.

Who knows, Playdom may tank, Gordon may move on (again), and TOR could tank.  One thing is certain, that if any of that doom and gloom does happen, then the mental giants trolling here will pump their chest and say they 'told us so.'  So just in case, in advance, I would like to be the first person to say, "great guesswork, too bad you have absolutely NO factual or logical basis to have come to that conclusion.'

My experience with RAD has been, well, non existent.  (unless you count the discussions and reading about it)  I haven't been 65 for long and can count on one hand how many raids I have been in.

However, not knowing if I was missing out on something I started to research the whole 'rad thing'.  I quickly found that there was a pretty steep treadmill of grinding and gear upgrades just to get to the point to grind the 'good dungeons/instances'.  To each their own...

As it is, I still have a ton of quests to do (most epic) and skipped quite a few areas (like the whole of Forechel, lol... well except the epic required adventuring).  I'll be busy for awhile with those and skirmishing I guess.  When the expansion comes out, even more so.

I could be narcissistic (hooray for spell checking :) ) and have the belief system that since I don't want or need rad or its related parts... then it is thus OK with me.  However, I haven't found that attitude to be very conducive to enjoying things (and this is a game... right?)

Being rather goal driven, and interested in PvMP, I probably need to put forth more effort into obtaining much better gear than I have now.  So far it seems the best gear is the rad gear... this is what I have gathered from googling and talking to folks as well as just noticing what folks' toons are equiped with.  (especially when they have 2k more morale than me, lol) 

What I want more than the gear though is a non-grinding way of obtaining it.  Crafting would be great and while I have no expectations of such, I am still hoping for a later crafting system update to fill the gap between what it is now and the much better (so I have found so far) drops.  Oh, and no (if you ask) I have very very rarely had to grind for mats... I just get them while questing, exploring, or helping folks out in their respective quests and exploration desires.

As Astrialla posted I too am curious if there will be other changes to current rad gear besides just surgically removing the rad stats.

Finally, like others have mentioned I am highly impressed and respectful of the LOTRO dev folks taking ownership of this and working to make it right (in their eyes at least).  That is not just rare in dev teams, not just in the gaming industry... or any other.  Rather I find that such an attitude is so refreshing because it is rare everywhere.

Good job, Turbine!  Kudos

Even were it not for the fact that due to the nature of the net (blogs usually) we all are subjected to a plethora of willfully ignorant but yet highly opinionated 'news reporters', there still is the sad reality that over the years ALL 'news' media has been lowering the bar from their super-biased cherry picking of what news (and what elements of that news) they choose to report, the wording they use, and the mass of equally willfully ignorant readers who choose not to distinguish between fact and opinion.  The result is at best confusion, but usually a mindless adoption of group think on the part of readers as a whole and the whole 'gaming news' market.

If sites are reporting high costs then they first need to define a baseline of what 'normal' costs are and then provide salient proof (and name sources) of their information.

Then there is that little annoying truth that sometimes you just gotta pay the price for quality.  Perhaps if there are a significant number of big investors that don't understand this then they should probably not invest in markets like this.  (also, they should do their homework, bioware is known for spending a lot but making much more due to the quality of their work)

Another bit of age old wisdom a lot of folks refuse to accept is that popularity does not equal wisdom or knowledge even.  How many rock stars and movie stars must we be subjected to 'teaching' us about foreign policy and economics before we understand this?  So some 'reporter' is a game fanatic and well networked... that does not mean he has a clue and can draw logical fact based conclusions.  More importantly, said joke... er 'reporter' is most likely neither educated or experienced in the area of business and specifically the nature of businesses in the gaming industry.

As Joe Friday always said, "Just the facts ma'am".  Perhaps we as consumers should start being smarter and be discerning on which sources of information are reliable and credible.

Seems like once again there is a mix of intelligent posts that show clear mature thought processes then there are those of big children that feel entitled and owed.  Instant gratification and entitlement posts just show the universe that you need to grow up.

Let Bioware do what they have proven to do so well and be thankful for what information you do get.  Grow up!

First off, great sig quote... reminds me of one of my favorite quotes of all times:

"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an 

enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can't get away from us now!"

Now to the point of this thread.  I first off would like to thank everyone for their opinions, while ALL opinions suck in various ways it is good to get them all out on the floor as only that is the direction towards an informed decision.  I humbly post my opinions and observations as follows.

I have only played PnP (A)D&D up through, over the years, the third edition rules.  Furthermore, I beta tested and subsequently played the release of UO (had a subscription for about 2 years I believe).  Life got quite busy and only allowed me to live vicariously through others in subsequent MMO(RPG) games until the wife and I started playing DAOC.  I have since played WoW, Guild Wars, and (currently) LOTRO.

My observations include:

1. Level based systems vary in their usage of 'levels' from full skill systems with unobservable (but internally calculated... think: color systems of other players and baddies) to very strict level systems that along with what seems to be a subsequent class based system (restricted likewise) form a very rigid and predictable character development and playing system.

2. Level systems seem to be the most popular and I have heard they are they easiest to code, balance, and play (at least initially by newbies).

3. following on #2, a business investor can easily argue that a strict level system is thus a win:win in that you have a greater chance of market penetration and perhaps dominance but yet without all that expensive R&D time of innovating a new (or adapting an older but less popular, or perhaps just a PnP system) system, this appeals obviously to any business decision maker

4. Due I suppose to a combination of said market's ease of entrance (learning curve flattening) and adoption, plus that oh so frustrating lack of folks voting with their feet, then it seems obvious as to why strict level based systems are all over the place (that sadly exposes a real problem in free markets today, that of a lack of consumer discipline and restraint)

5. Various differing minor variations exist to overcome the weaknesses of strict level (and strict class) based systems exist (don't get offended... all systems have strengths and weaknesses)

6. Following on #5, if you will let me focus on LOTRO exclusively since I play that currently, there seems to be a "gentlemen's agreement (of silence)" that the market players seem to want to get around the restrictions of strict level and class systems by introducing uber-level monsters.  In LOTRO, examples are 'elite', 'signature', 'rare elite' and such that are basically overpowered monsters that are level X.  (e.g. 2 - 10 times the hit points plus massive bonuses to offensive and defensive capabilities)

7. My opinion, based on this observation and lurking over the years on game-dev forums, is that the players in this industry are not arguing that a strict level system 'sucks more' than other systems, but can not or will not innovate beyond that.

Oh how I distrust that word, 'Innovate', because it can so easily be thrown out by lawyers and marketers regardless of its actual merit of use.

I don't want to see more games that want to please everyone.  I want to see different systems for different tastes and play styles but this will only happen when consumers like us stop being immature and start voting with our dollar/feet.  Cookie cutter games will continue to be pumped out with only the story and theme (nouns) being the difference (and of course graphics and other goodies that newer hardware and API's allow).

If makers of ice cream adopted the MMO market's approach to business then we would have about 4 different flavors of ice cream... and yet the market would just blindly accept this.

I DO NOT want a system that tries to please everyone and/or does a whole lot in a sucky way as opposed to doing a few things very well (and that integrate well into larger systems... this is a poor, but common summation of the UNIX system of tools and development strategy btw)

I want each group to have their own game system to play with and real innovation to happen with each new game pumped out.  I hear great things about SW:TOR but only time will tell for sure.

----------------

For the record, I am in favor of skill based systems and furthermore enjoy systems without classes.  I really don't care if said system has meta-classes and meta-levels.  Outside of Ultima, my favorite RPGs of all times are of the Morrowind series by Bethesda, namely 3 and 4.  I have NO idea how difficult that would be to implement as an MMO, much less the market that would support such a system, but I can dream! :)

I operate my own small business and understand the vast risk of innovating and focusing on nich markets as opposed to creating more cookie cutter clones.  Yet!  I would also be a fool to say... try and build a Facebook competitor unless I have a massively compelling (to investors AND users) reason to do so.

I enjoy a great background 'universe' and story/plot system.  Arguably, there is great variance and innovation now and will be to come... and yes I admit most of this is just simply due to legal requirements.  LOTRO gets my vote alone for the LOTR 'universe'... Turbine won big with their win-over of the Tolkien family and other IP owners to be able to build on top of this.  Sadly, I feel that they put all their 'win' into this and not by focusing on creating and innovative game and gaming experience.  YMMV.

If you have read this far, I apologize for punishing you with this dissertation.  Please please please... realize that these forums are great, but to really enact change (if you so desire it) or rather just support a market full of differing approaches (systems) where you can pick freely that (those) that which fits your taste... you MUST vote with your feet.  The decision makers on design of MMOs care little about opinions unless those opinions translate into $$$.  Until we all vote with our feet, then expect more 'please them all' cookie cutter systems that are basically the least common denominator.

Again, this is all my humble opinion! :)