Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Vahrane

        Have to agree with Azmundai. If you think about it, you can take NW and replace many of the classes with different cliche, fantasy/mythological/historical tropes and essentially get the same game. Example: instead, switch the trickster rogue with a ninja  and the cleric with some kinda combat medic. Next, reskin the setting and bam, different game aesthetically but without any changes to the mechanics of the game/gameplay. Bottom line, NW doesn't replicate much of the depth typical to D&D, even according to DDO standards, and essentially plays as if a fantasy skin were placed over an action game.

Maybe because it's (D&D) one of the biggest inspirations behind the MMORPG genre? Not to mention RPG's (video-games) in general.

        Very good arguement, and I agree in part. You're correct, the same could be said about any number of rpgs/mmorpgs, but with NW the feeling is accentuated rather than cleverly concealed. 

Originally posted by evilastro
Every single skill is taken directly from the 4th edition. Go check the players handbook. Same with lore, setting, classes, minsters. Its not just names tacked on to some generic work.

            I'm guessing by skill you meant ability. My trickster rogue has no typical D&D skills like lockpicking, perception, tumbling, etc. They implemented stealth but it has no skill value (there are no checks made against it that I know of). I admit I don't know if 4e plays without the relevant skills associated with the D&D classes that I'm familiar with. That being said, if they've really watered D&D down that far when designing 4e, why even bother? 

Originally posted by azmundai

 

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Originally posted by evilastro

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Originally posted by azmundai it just another action rpg clone with no soul and a famous IP slapped on top of it.

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Except that Orbs are a mainstay weapon of the 4th edition where it gets its inspiration from. They will probably add the other weapon types to future classes to make classes more distinguishable.

 

They have immense attention to detail with the IP. All the skills, classes etc are directly from the 4th edition. You are either stuck in the past or a troll who probably never played tabletop DnD.

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ive played a lot of tabletop DnD in the past. this game does nothing to replicate the experience. it's invictus with dnd names slapped on everything.

 

        Have to agree with Azmundai. If you think about it, you can take NW and replace many of the classes with different cliche, fantasy/mythological/historical tropes and essentially get the same game. Example: instead, switch the trickster rogue with a ninja  and the cleric with some kinda combat medic. Next, reskin the setting and bam, different game aesthetically but without any changes to the mechanics of the game/gameplay. Bottom line, NW doesn't replicate much of the depth typical to D&D, even according to DDO standards, and essentially plays as if a fantasy skin were placed over an action game.

Originally posted by Doomedfox

Lets just wait and see how good it will be once it comes out in the western parts of the world which is earliest 2015 if i remember correctly right?

2 Years is a long time and it would not be the first asian MMO that gets massive hype years before it makes its way to the western part only to really disappoint a lot.

Unfortunately you are correct. At this time the game doesn't even have a western publisher. Supposedly it will be entering closed beta in Korea sometime during July.

Originally posted by Ripostethis
Sweet, another terrible Korean MMO that will be pumped out way too quick and be F2P. Another Ninth seal, or Raiderz be my guess.

What isn't free to play nowadays? Granted the game could wind up terrible, but with everything going F2P lately that's not something you can really hold against a project anymore, not until you see how their cash shop works at least.

Originally posted by Shauneepeak

Originally posted by korr

Originally posted by Grailer

Originally posted by korr

The video looked good, but their website (at least the one linked through here) is enough to make me stay away from it.

 

I created better websites in the 90's on Angelfire

maybe they are spending time making the game not wasting there time with a website no one but you cares about ?

 

 

that may be the case, but there is almost no information on the site, just the video.  I just can't get excited about a project the created can't get excited enough to talk about on their own site.

As I said in my thread that is most likely the English place holder site because how could an MMO this massive be going into closed beta in less than 2 months not have an official game site. The game almost certainly has a Korean site we just do not have access to it.

  It's not even that hard to find, but people would prefer pissing and moaning about what doesn't exist rather than going and checking if there's any information they may have missed (google search is hard, ya know).

   http://www.blackdeserthq.com/forums/

There is fairly large section that contains gamer's questions which get answered directly by the Black Desert dev team. 

Originally posted by ZedTheRock

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by ZedTheRock
Anything Korean automatically raises a red flag.  Their entire culture is so different then those of us in the west that games from Korea and other parts of Asia usually consist of over sexualized avatars, unrealistic kee-yaw style combat, and happy rainbw unicorn art styles.

     Maybe you should at least watch one of their videos first and then, if still unimpressed, make a post detailing what this particular game could do better. As it is, unrealistic combat and over sexualized avatars aren't solely within the domain of eastern games. That being said, the character models for this game aren't designed by prudes but retain a more refined aesthetic. I didn't see any happy unicorns with rainbows when I watched either. Those got left in Diablo III as a "joke". 

Watched the video and I saw Asian Influences through and through.  From Frilly cottoney short dresses to over stylized flashy colorful combat animations.

 

Calleme a cynic but I love boring not flash.

    Guess I missed all that. Seriously, I watched their vids again and am fairly lost as to where you're seeing the " frilly cottoney" dresses (Who does cotton think it is anyway? Comprising many of my daily textiles! It can shove off!). The combat animations might have been stylized but weren't all that flashy either. Again, Diablo III had, at least equally, flashy animations as well. I'm not really sure why you love "boring" either. Unless you're trying to fix your engines pistons.

Originally posted by Hatefull

Originally posted by Whitebeards

You people are great. Gotto love how quick you guys jump from one hype bandwagon to another. Not so long ago it was all about AA and now it BD soon it will be some other MMO.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  Ohhh shiny! best game ever.  Until the next shiny comes along.

Was never impressed by Arche Age beyond considering the graphics decent, but they're the least of my concerns when actually choosing to hype a new game (unless they're absolutely abysmal like Wurm Online). 

Originally posted by ZedTheRock
Anything Korean automatically raises a red flag.  Their entire culture is so different then those of us in the west that games from Korea and other parts of Asia usually consist of over sexualized avatars, unrealistic kee-yaw style combat, and happy rainbw unicorn art styles.

     Maybe you should at least watch one of their videos first and then, if still unimpressed, make a post detailing what this particular game could do better. As it is, unrealistic combat and over sexualized avatars aren't solely within the domain of eastern games. That being said, the character models for this game aren't designed by prudes but retain a more refined aesthetic. I didn't see any happy unicorns with rainbows when I watched either. Those got left in Diablo III as a "joke". 

Originally posted by Zalmon

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Zalmon

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

It's not my fault you didn't understand it the way I wrote it. I wrote "used to be" as in prior to contemporary titles.

And yet you haven't proved it. That just one example didn't prove anything really. Also the the original statement mentioned 'genre' and last time i checked one MMO does not make an entire genre.

I think now even you are just arguing for sake of it instead of trying to explain your point with better examples.

   He never even gave one example in counter argument. Had he made any effort to dispute my initial example with one of his own, I would have carried the argument further. Feel free to take a crack at it yourself. This is a highly opinionated argument anyway. No one is going to win. Nothing is going to be "proven".

He didn't give an example to counter argument maybe because he doesn't even believe in the whole 'MMO genre used to be of heightened complexity' statement? i don't think he was trying to prove you wrong but expecting you to back up what you said.

       Fair enough. Like I edited my post to say above. Check out any of the EQ class epic quests. I don't have time or inclination to list all the steps for even one, but it required a great deal of effort and thought to solve those particular quests. There is practically nothing of their scale in mmorpgs today. Beyond the class epics, the Coldain Prayer Shawl was another fairly complex quest line which required the player to nearly GM (grand master) every trade skill in the game (except tinkering which was gnome only).

Originally posted by Zalmon

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

It's not my fault you didn't understand it the way I wrote it. I wrote "used to be" as in prior to contemporary titles.

And yet you haven't proved it. That just one example didn't prove anything really. Also the the original statement mentioned 'genre' and last time i checked one MMO does not make an entire genre.

I think now even you are just arguing for sake of it instead of trying to explain your point with better examples.

   He never even gave one example in counter argument. Had he made any effort to dispute my initial example with one of his own, I would have carried the argument further. Feel free to take a crack at it yourself. This is a highly opinionated argument anyway. No one is going to win. Nothing is going to be "proven". Here's a simple one just for shits. Any one of EQ's epic class weapon quests when compared to ANY mmorpg quests post WoW era besides the WoW hunter class epic and priest class epics (which quests were intentionally reminiscent of the EQ epics but were never done for each WoW class, shame).

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

      I didn't say they were highly complex initially! I said they were more complex than what we have now! Formerly, there was a greater (heightened) sense of complexity in older mmo games. Now you're arguing a completely different point and I'm starting to doubt you really had a point to begin with. It's a completely opinionated argument anyway. I feel the way I do and you have no real feeling beyond the enjoyment of linking random gifs after peoples posts.

I took your comment the way you wrote it. You said this genre used to be about 'heightened complexity'. Now you can back peddle and change your original statement but that is what you wrote. So nope i wasn't arguing a different point but the only point you were trying to make about this 'genre'.

Don't get upset now because i questioned what you said and asked you to back it up. And yes i know it is an opinionated argument but that doesn't mean others can not question your opinions. 

By the way i only posted animated GIF for your post....so i don't know who are these other 'peoples' you are talking about.

 

It's not my fault you didn't understand it the way I wrote it. I wrote "used to be" as in prior to contemporary titles.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it.

 One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today.

Oh boy..so this is what you consider as 'heightened complexity'? 

By the way UO doesn't make entire genre.

   Give me a better example from NW? It's not the best but it sure as hell beats the click-fest, excuse for D&D that is NW. Can these games ever get as complex as a pen and paper session? No, I highly doubt it. It does seriously seem that games are moving in the opposite direction though. I think the most interesting combat tactic, that even borders on complexity, that I've heard about from NW is knocking adds off cliffs during boss fights. 

I don't need to give an example because i don't even believe in this 'heightened complexity' thing you are going on about. MMOS were never as complex as you are trying hard to prove they were. And the example you gave from UO just proves my point.

      I didn't say they were highly complex initially! I said they were more complex than what we have now! Formerly, there was a greater (heightened) sense of complexity in older mmo games. Now you're arguing a completely different point and I'm starting to doubt you really had a point to begin with. It's a completely opinionated argument anyway. I feel the way I do and you have no real feeling beyond the enjoyment of linking random gifs after peoples posts.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it.

 One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today.

Oh boy..so this is what you consider as 'heightened complexity'? 

By the way UO doesn't make entire genre.

   Give me a better example from NW? It's not the best but it sure as hell beats the click-fest, excuse for D&D that is NW. Can these games ever get as complex as a pen and paper session? No, I highly doubt it. It does seriously seem that games are moving in the opposite direction though. I think the most interesting combat tactic, that even borders on complexity, I've heard about from NW is knocking adds off cliffs during boss fights. 

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

      Since you're 23 did you play UO during it's heyday or much further into it's development? It's been a shell of it's former self for years and has been more about hunting down items like a Diablo title. If you played UO at its initial release you'd have been 4 years old. Somehow I don't believe this.

You are exaggerating yet again. UO isn't shell of its former self. And i can bet you that those who played UO when it first came out would disagree with you still about 'heightened complexity'. 

Like i said earlier you surely do love to exaggerate a lot.

   More BS from your end. How about you answer my question this time? Exaggeration is subjective.

Umm burden of proof is on you my friend. I never claimed anything here. So please tell us how and what made UO so complex that you claimed that this entire 'genre' was about 'heightened complexity'? you can not just say stuff like that on open forums and hope that no one would ask you to atleast back it up with some facts.

By the way UO is just one MMO and surely doesn't make the entire genre. Here i will post your original comment again to make things clear....

"Maybe some people had really really low standards to begin with but this used to be the genre of heightened complexity."

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it. Beyond just poisoning bread people could tinker their own traps onto chests as well. Again, a mechanic unseen in another mmorpg beyond UO. What recent game can you tinker traps onto chests that can actually kill players?

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

      Since you're 23 did you play UO during it's heyday or much further into it's development? It's been a shell of it's former self for years and has been more about hunting down items like a Diablo title. If you played UO at its initial release you'd have been 4 years old. Somehow I don't believe this.

You are exaggerating yet again. UO isn't shell of its former self. And i can bet you that those who played UO when it first came out would disagree with you still about 'heightened complexity'. 

Like i said earlier you surely do love to exaggerate a lot.

   More BS from your end. How about you answer my question this time? Exaggeration is subjective.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

   Yeah, I started with UO and would love to see more games made in that style but I still don't see how asking for a more immersive experience deserves this kind of reply. Oh wait! I'm talking to people who believe NW is a good D&D game! That must be it.

First of all only because i used an animated GIF of a laughing baby doesn't mean you are a baby. I guess you have never seen people using animated gif's before? many times people use these animated pictures to express how they feel about a certain post. I feel like i am talking to someone who just started using the internet.

Second, you said this genre used to be about 'heightened complexity'. I never said anything about you 'expecting more immersive experience'.

And i am still waiting for you to prove how this genre used to be about 'heightened complexity' because i have played every single MMO from UO to NW and never felt that way.

      Since you're 23 did you play UO during it's heyday or much further into it's development? It's been a shell of it's former self for years and has been more about hunting down items like a Diablo title. If you played UO at its initial release you'd have been 7 years old. Somehow, I don't believe this.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by sexypanda198
I can understand you disgust with F2P cash games but why neverwinter man i mean some of us want to see our D&D succeed. If you said this about some mmo like say Heroes of the dead "yes it's made up" then i'd be all supportive.

Are you kidding? This is an insult to D&D, by wishing this crap to do well, you set the standard for future D&D games.
Whats more amazing is that Cryptic even got the license to make a D&D game to begin with.

It is clear that those who designed the game either lack talent or funding because Neverwinter is a joke in every sense of the word. I am a huge D&D fan and this ...whatever it is, is not D&D. Its another cryptic pos using a known name/brand to sell an under developed shoddy game. Thats their strategy.

      This is pretty much how I feel as well. Where did our standards go as gamers? Maybe some people had really really low standards to begin with but this used to be the genre of heightened complexity. D&D was the forerunner of most all rpg experiences and began as a very deep, thought provoking game. What happened? NW is just a simple action fest with a D&D skin.

Seriously! What's your point? I'm a baby for asking for a deeper, higher quality game?

More like a child who doesn't comprehend the notion of emergent gameplay which has, apart from a scant few titles none of which are EQ,WoW,Tera, AoC,etc, been absent from the gaming scene so your idea of that complexity has gotten worse in online game is at best laughable. The only thing that has happened since your "gold era" is that the majority of games went the EQ root of hand holding instead of the UO/SWG/EVE route of just tossing you into the ocean to see if you can swim.

   Yeah, I started with UO and would love to see more games made in that style but I still don't see how asking for a more immersive experience deserves this kind of reply. Oh wait! I'm talking to people who believe NW is a good D&D game! That must be it. Most would contend that the era of hand holding began after EQ with its predecessor WoW.

     One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today. 

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by sexypanda198
I can understand you disgust with F2P cash games but why neverwinter man i mean some of us want to see our D&D succeed. If you said this about some mmo like say Heroes of the dead "yes it's made up" then i'd be all supportive.

Are you kidding? This is an insult to D&D, by wishing this crap to do well, you set the standard for future D&D games.
Whats more amazing is that Cryptic even got the license to make a D&D game to begin with.

It is clear that those who designed the game either lack talent or funding because Neverwinter is a joke in every sense of the word. I am a huge D&D fan and this ...whatever it is, is not D&D. Its another cryptic pos using a known name/brand to sell an under developed shoddy game. Thats their strategy.

      This is pretty much how I feel as well. Where did our standards go as gamers? Maybe some people had really really low standards to begin with but this used to be the genre of heightened complexity. D&D was the forerunner of most all rpg experiences and began as a very deep, thought provoking game. What happened? NW is just a simple action fest with a D&D skin.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by Mothanos
The services you bought where a fraud...

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May I ask how the services a player purchased are considered a fraud? Did they not get what they paid for?

 

It seems to me, and I really know nothing about what players bought, that players are just pissed, which does NOT constitute fraud. In anyone's book.

Maybe I am wrong?

      I think it has to do with the fact that many founders packs contained some quantity of Zen included with all the virtual items. After what happened with the NW economy the value of the legitimately purchased Zen has been affected by the bug, a bug reported numerous times prior to their fix, allowing exploiters to gain control over much of the currency/economy. So, I believe the near immediate devaluation of the purchased currency is what players are citing as a fraudulent tactic. At the very least, the PWE company owed its players a "duty of care" to act quickly and responsibly when dealing with legitimate, reported bugs. When PWE failed to act within an appropriate time frame and allowed their games economy to tank inside of their open beta they committed a tort of negligence at the least.