I really hope ANET doesn't try to balance for 1v1. That would be terrible. 

You people make me sick. Cry cry cry thats all the modern MMO audience does. 

why would they go for gear grind hamster wheel... 

Originally posted by mmorpgbro

Blue Hole studio also said that they are adding castle sieges at some point.

 

This is the spiritual successor of Lineage 2.

Pretty sure ArchAge is the spirtual successor to L2 since its being developed by the lead dev of L2

I'm sick and tired of casual players crying about not being able to do EVERYTHING in an MMO because they "don't have time" and they should be catered to 24/7 so everyone can get a trophy. The political system should be something to keep hardcore player intrested, while other features like housing 10 man pug raids, PQs and welfare epics to keep them entertainined. If they want to be part of the political system and run things then they should be active or band together to get political power like they have to in EvE. 

What I don't like from the article is the fact that you can do epic quest to get a PvP political spot. WTF? PvE for a PvP reward how does that make sense? Other than that, the system is instresting and I had thoughts of a similar functioning system, but mine would have be more PvP driven. Hopefully this will work out and not become just a token "fun" reward that has no meaning because nearly everyone can get into it. 

Its a good way to do things. Still doesn't make the game good enough to buy and not that much different than tokens and is still the same old, so it seems, gear grind hamester wheel. 

Really? Sorry to burst your bubble, but if SWTOR fails its because its another themepark clone. It has no bearing on the MMO Genere, just a change in the tatste of the people playing them. 

Originally posted by Happyguy83

 

I dislike this sort of sentement towards this game. 

 

The whole, "Adding Story and full VO isn't revolutionizing anything, even though no MMO has had this on this scale" line of thinking is rather idiotic and is not help when these people go and praise, say, Guild Wars 2 about its combat but it does not have story anywhere near the scale of TOR( I suppose you really can't have much story in GW2 due to the DE replacing quest).

 

My question is, Is combat the only thing that you can change in an MMO to make it revolutionary?

Injecting a single play game experience isn't chaning anything on the MMO side. GW2's combat isn't the only thing that is chaning the MMOness, the dynamic events, the mist PvP, the PQs, the personal story lines, personal towns (not just housing), etc are what chaning the MMOness of GW2. TOR isn't chaning of the MMO standards in its game. Co-op story line isn't anything new, nor is the story telling (quest chains with different results)

Originally posted by Normike

 

A few things that didn't click. It's not just MMOs that have become fast food. Everything is fast food today: music, tv, news, movies, mini-vacations, meals, shopping, even conversations. Everything happens at a much faster pace. Most people aren't going to sit down to an old school traditional rpg pace. It's archaic at the speed we live today.

 You missed the point behind the analogy. Its not that the pacing is fast food like, its that the entire system is made ready to order and industrialized with little in way of customization/innovation. Its great for a "snack" but you can't live off it without becoming a fatass

SWTOR will be about as sandbox as KOTOR. You make this choice, this race of people is destroyed, make that choice then this race of people is saved. blah blah blah. SWTOR can morph environments that fit in different states so if you have comleted a quest then the environment can look different. Your real issue is that everyone gets to do it. Well yes, that requires suspension of disbelief. You have to use your imagination to believe that only you and your party members completed that quest. It's part of storytelling. Or you can just say "this sucks! I just did a survey on Coruscant and 100 other people said they saved the Jawa people on that quest too!"  It's up to your imagination. But I don't think it means that SWTOR is less of a sandbox than KOTOR.

 

SWTOR isn't exactly "injecting a single payer experience into an MMO" then making you pay for it. When games migrated from just text to simple graphics, MMORPGs and RPGs diverged. Some RPGs continued to enhance the story, the npcs, the plot. MMOs continued to focus more and more on gear, items, and bosses that require multiple people to fight. To the point that today's MMOs suck badly at story, believable NPC characters, and an exciting plot. MMOs did this MMO worlds are large, there are hundreds of quests. Creating a cohesive plot, with voice acting, extensive realistic NPC animations, facial expressions, all in a cohesive engaging story is daunting and way too expensive. It's easier to make it about all about item, gear, bosses, and pvp.

 

You make it sound like SWTOR is removing something from the MMO formula in order to give you cinematics. AKA ripping you off by charging you $15/month instead of just giving you a whole single player rpg that you can buy. They are giving you a full current day MMO and adding all the stuff that Bioware usually does on top of that. So I don't see how you can complain that you'd rather just pay once and have Skyrim? lol

 

When I look at what we have to select from: Aion, Eve Online, WoW, Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Archage, Tera, Darkfall, Rift, LotRo, The Secret World. They all have or probably will fail to make me give a damn about the story, the plot, even about the quest. The quest just becomes "oh let me grab these items so I can get some xp." But even in the SWTOR clips I actually found myself getting attached to the Mako character, the "Yoda" character, etc. Their voice acting, body language, facial expressions, cinematography make them come to life to me. They feel believable, realistic. I don't get that same feeling from looking at other MMO character clips, for example Tera, GW2, Secret World. If they can keep adding expansions onto the game with this level of quality then that's worth $15 a month.

What you like about SWTOR is the story line. Thats fine, I'm not aruging that it won't be good. I'm saying that in and of itself is not enough to warrant calling the game a great MMO. The story doesn't foster comunity building, it detracts from it. Thats the problem I have with MMOs in general, community building has been replaced by raid instances, ques, PQ, and meaningless factional content.

Sandbox games typically do not have that problem. The commuinity building aspect is the heart of the game. The problem with most Sandbox MMOs is that they aren't made by people with money who are able to code in all the tools required to allow the players to create a great community. The new ones that have been released suffer from this problem: DFO, MO, Xsyon, Earth Rise, etc.

The only game that is coming out in the near future that is anything close to what would make a great community building game is ArchAge. It is a sandbox game with Themepark elements (raids, intro quest, leveling) but its heart its community building, world shaping, tempered by open world conflict. When you get killed, it will matter. When you get your house, it will matter. You can actually create syndicates in the game because you can actually control markets! The same is true with EvE and I'd play EvE if the combat wasn't so boring. I'm hoping that tera forming planets and the introduction of Dust will change that.

Originally posted by Romse

I think they are changing the way MMOs are made by not making an engine of their own but licensing a ready made engine (the Hero Engine)

We're gonna have to see more and more of this because developpement of an MMO is just too costly and at this point no one is taking any risks.

Do you know anything about MMOs? 90% of them are made using a ready made engine and have been for some time. Unreal, Gamebryo, Heroscape are just a few off the top of my head. MMO companies only make their own engire when the engines avaible restrict their development wishes

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by fcazares

This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.

 

Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.

 

Really?

Why aren't you still playing Darkfall then? Instead of railing against the evils of the themepark, shouldn't you be supporting the only sandbox (outside of Eve) left with a population of more than 100 people.

I stopped playing darkfall because it didn't fix its problems quick enough and I'm leaving for the military in sep. 

Originally posted by fcazares

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by fcazares

This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.

 

Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.

 So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.

The blod part is exactly why most MMO are completely crap at the foundation. Yes, I am saying that SWTOR will not have the social aspect that I'm talking about because 90% of MMOs on the market do not have that social aspect anymore. Its more than meeting up for raids or playing the game together, its about community building. For instance, while I am playing rift and enjoying it atm, it does not have a focus on community development/involvment. Its MMO fast food. Once I'm done doing raids and all that jazz, the game will be boring unless the devlopers can make world shaping through pvp improtant becuase thats the only way themepark games can make community building important. 

KTOR, the IP behind TOR, is a sandbox game franchise. If you played it, you'd know why I call it a sandbox, largely because of the ability to shape the world. TOR will not have the game shaping aspects, not in the meaningful sense anyways. You'll be able to shape your story, but not the world itself. On top of this, there is a finite amount of story haping that you can actual particapte in and everyone playing the game has the same options to shape their story the same way you do. SWG (pre-nge) had world shaping on a level no themepark game (VG was very close) can ever hope to acheve. TOR will be no different. The themepark modle is too ridgid and  it appeals to a difference audience. 

Just to make it clear, I don't care if SWTOR is sucessful or not. It probably will be, just like rift, wow, and AoC and EQ. That doesn't mean the game will be more or rather better than any of them. From the information and how the devs hype the game SWTOR is simply another themepark mmo. The reason people are tired of seeing the same "wow clone" is for the same reason why you quit themepark games every 6months until new content is released. If you are tired of that same old crap (as the ornage text leads me to believe) then you should stop buying the same old crap. Demand that the game have features and community building tools, things that make the game new and refershing every day even if its the same. Dynamic content, world building tools, player vs player confilct that actually impacts the world (not zone take over like WAR but desimation and permanet destruction like SB), etc. 

No matter how much you want to believe other wise, SWTOR isn't breaking the mold for the MMO. It simply injecting a single player experience into an MMO and then making you pay for it. I'd rather play Skyrim and KOTR for a single payment of $50 (or less) than shell out 15 a month for the same crap.

And just to be clear, I think that you'll quit SWTOR after you've played through the game just like you do with every other themepark game. 

Originally posted by fcazares

This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.

Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.

Originally posted by Golelorn

I don't see how it will be any different than a game like Rift or LoTRO. Hope I'm wrong, because I'm tired of these games that are only meant to be played for 2 weeks before the boredom caused by repetitive gameplay kicks in.

Then stop buying them? Buy the niche games made by indy companies.

Orig

Yes, Azeroth has soul.  the endgame direction since about halfway through BC has been pretty crappy, but that doesnt change the foundation the game was based on.   Name a game, besides Everquest 1, that has a more interesting game world?

 FFXI LOTOR (prior IP) SWG pre NGE (piror IP) Shadow Bane, DAOC

And the people who say the game has zero community probably aren't very good at making friends.  The city trade chat channels may be abysmal, but its not very difficult to make friends and find people to do stuff with outside of guild.

The point you missed is that there isn't any reason to. You aren't forced to make friends to do raids or PvP anymore because they autmoated the entire game instead of fostering the creation of a community.

see orange

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Originally posted by xpiher

Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now. 

 

xpiher meet Occam

 

All the reasons I suggested for WoW's sucess aren't new and have been attributed to WoW's sucess quite often by its most adament supporters. When WoW launched, it took the existing modle with a few tweaks. Had it not been for those factors, it would not have crushed EQ.

Saying it was just good would be good enough, if you go deconstructing it, where would you stop. Why leave out questing as a huge part of the game, what about the auction house, rested experience, seamless world, character animations, art style (not talking about poly count)...

 

Many posts about SWTOR sound so negative because when we look at the game we see this massive and interesting new feature that will improve storytelling and immersion in a singleplayer kind of way, but very few other improvements. What many want seems to be another WoW, not in the clone kind of way, but in a way that it would take all the major features and improve them all, not just one.

We allready had many of those one hit wonders, at least this one looks to be polished when released.

I actually think the reason people say SWTOR and Rift and every other mmo that has come out is a "wow clone" is becuae they are tired for hand holding BS that comes with themepark games. 

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Don't see how this game will change the industry for the better. All their doing is putting more emphasis on story and using full voice overs. I think the game will do well but if any game will change the industry for the better it is Guild Wars 2.

Don't see how GW2 is going to do any better, I mean all its doing it removing the trinity and add DE....

Thats not all its adding. The mist PvP is farily unique, they actually do PQs correctly the dynamic events are actually evolving story arcs, the housing system is unique (you build you own town), etc.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Yes because Warcraft was a bigger IP than Star Wars before WoW was released.

 

Your second paragraph is pure opinion and judging by game sub numbers, your opinion is  in the minority.

I'm not talking about now. I was talking about when the game launched. You weren't following all my replies. The sucess now is only because of the game's initial sucess.

 

WoW also has that 'it' factor thats tough to pin down.  Azeroth draws you in.  The game world is well done and has a certain flair and wonder that games like Rift just do not have.  Azeroth feels like an actual world, much like Norrath did back in 1999.

The races had character to them, with identifiable personalities and backgrounds and motivations.  Contrast this with Rift and even SWG.  You cant identify with being a Bahmi or a Trandoshan like you can with a WoW troll or an EQ Dark Elf.  Even the generic fantasy races in both these games are done with a certain flair.

To put simply (if not even more abstractly) both games have SOUL.  Thats a tough thing to set out and do which is why these two games remain the biggest success of the MMORPG industry in their respective eras.

 

I already mentioned that. Its the IP, which was barrowed heavily from Warhammer and Tolkien. Its not new. If the harry potter mmo that was being developed by the guys that made UO were able to launch it before being bought out by EA, it would have been the same thing. 

I completely disagree with the "draw you in" factor. A themepark mmo cannot draw you into the story when you know everyone around you is killing the same bosses and saving the same day over and over again. The IP is good, it was popular before WoW which helps that aspect, but not enough. 

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".

 

It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.

 

Its already been figured out. SWG, UO, etc. The problem is that most people don't like complicated games. 

But that's what i mean, we just need someone to not do it poorly, make it, you know... fun.

 

Those games are fun, they just aren't designed with the menality that you can play for an hour and log off while getting A LOT done in that hour by yourself. SWG pre NGE, UO (the key command system was standard when it was launched) , EvE, Haven and Hearth, etc have fairly simple controls and are pretty stright forward game play wise. The problem is, it takes thought. You aren't hand-held in these game, which is what makes them actually good (IMO). However, to most of the mmo market (which is still 25years old and younger), this level of depth and thinking over complicate that game for them. They are left with What am I suppose to do?" and log off in frustartion saying that the game doesn't have any content. Thats why pure sandbox games are typically niche, EvE and UO being the expections due to their blend of thempark 9faction fighting, quest system, etc) style gameplay and sandbox game play (open world PvP, in depth crafting system, massive amount of meta game elements, etc)

This is why I have high hopes for ArchAge, which is suppose to launch with both sandbox features and themepark ones.